[#05] Ice Climbers MU Discussion Thread 2010

[Bahamut777]

Discuss...

 

[Exalted]

Ganon's doomed.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

I don't have much ICs experience, but from the couple matches I've played I've learned a little.

Never dtilt. Seriously never dtilt unless you know it'll work. They'll just shieldgrab it and then....... yeah <_< Try not to dair too often because they can grab they'll just pluck you out of the air. Use a lot of tipmans on stage. The close hitbox to the ground with the autocancel frames help a lot with the MU.

Blizzard is ***** in this match up. We can't beat it out but that doesn't mean we can't punish it. What I love doing is jumping right into the blizzard and getting popped out the top. Then we can downB them right in the face.

 

[the king of murder]

The old man has to separate them as much as possible for a chance of winning.

Never grab or gerudo the IC if they are together because they will definitly punish you.

Try to avoid their grab at all cost and apporach them slowly.

That's it for now.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

DO NOT GO OFFSTAGE. If you go offstage in this matchup, you're not coming back. We have absolutely nothing we can do against blizzard edgeguarding as far as I know.

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-throw ***** the ICs. Puts one IC offstage and puts the other above you to get U-aired. Seriously. F-throw is SO FUCKING GOOD IN THIS MATCHUP. It's as if it was designed to defeat the Ice Climbers.

 

[ItemfinderDeluxe]

Still, with Ganon's grab range compared to the IC's that's needing a miracle to set up. Would the "Shield-DI" trick help to get such a grab, and how would Ganon set it up (what does Ganon need to do it against)?

And ban FD, for the love of all things evil! Despite the fact that U-Air is IC's best aerial move (which is annoying for us...) Ganon will need a platform to reset his game on and recover his shield after Blizzard chips and PS'ing Ice Blocks.

 

[Teh Future]

dude wtf ganon ***** ics

 

[Exalted]

dude wtf ganon ***** ics

Gannon-Banned.

 

[oldmanondorf_]

IC's matchup is ****ed.

/thread

 

[A2ZOMG]

Whoever states the obvious again gets Gannon Banned by me personally.

 

[bigbucks]

Trying to shield SDI will only leave you vulnerable to a grab, unless you can Shield SDI mad fast.

 

[fonzi21]

Ice blocks are easily PS'ed. There just annoying

Blizzard if you get knocked into the ice block where it spins you around and such you can get out and down-B instantly to hit IC's which splits them up it has to be really quick though you can't hesitate or they can shield. Blizzard can also be shielded to Jab unless there doing the De-sync crap which most do so this isn't really Viable.

Dairs can easily be spaced to not get grabbed out of. Try to space behind them so it pushes them away, making them have to drop shield turn and dash grab meaning they can't get to you in time. The front of their shield works too, the push is so **** far its ridiculous. If you mispace the Dair buffer the spot dodge then roll away. If they don't PS the Dair depending on your spacing you should be safe most of the time. and a lot of the times if Popo PS'eds Nana still gets hit. Also if the IC's are de-synced and you space the Dairs correctly you can make them go opposite directions if they shield it. Meaning free hits on Nana.

When you get Nana off the map, spike her. Tipman to spike w/e you want to do, but she has to die.

When your on the edge trying to recover to the stage. remember Ganon's Getup attack is long. If they jump to blizzard and your below 100 judge the distance and either getup attack or roll onto the stage. blizzard is slow. Also remember Uair goes through the stage. if IC's don't space right punish it. Recovering to the stage is hard to explain and it's judgement based.

If IC's are off the staged and sync'ed together expect the Side-B and come down on top with a tipman. If you get hit by the Side B it also ruins their Vertical momentum towards the stage. If you think they are going to Up-B run off and do a reverse tipman. Nana is invincible but Popo isn't until he reaches the ledge, he is like the tethers and still can be hit.

Their Uair beats anything we have below us, their Dair basically is the same (Although I believe we can trade hits if we Uair just depends on spacing). So you want to stay Diagonally below them on their FRONT side. because their Bair is **** too and we don't want to mess with that. When your above them retreat to a platform or the edge, your call but don't contest their Uair. Bait their Dair and punish it. it's laggy.

At low percents if you land a Dair know they can Nair and hit you before you can do another Dair, so judge your next hit accordingly.

Death percents for you should be around 120-130% from the Usmash out of a grab (before hit) because they will charge it. if they don't possibly 150+ Smash DI DOWN and DI the way IC's are facing ( I am almost positive on this one). Now if they know you can DI it properly sometimes they will B-throw to Usmash to mess with your DI. you still Want to Smash DI down, but realize you need to still DI the way the IC that is Usmashing you is facing.

You need to kill Nana as soon as she gets off the map, and Popo should die around 100%.

If you happen to grab Them F-throw is really good since it will hit both of them.

2 Dairs on a fresh IC shield and the 3rd one is almost Guaranteed to shield poke them everytime. Dair ***** their shield.

If they are De-syncing and SH Blizzarding retreat to whatever platform you can and try to get above them or behind them for possible punishment, remember it's SLOW so punish it when they get greedy with it.

AVOID platform camping, you won't win this fight. Only use platforms to allow your shield to recover or to get away from possible grab situations and reset the spacing.

Don't be afraid to retreat to the edge after killing IC's if you are up a stock. IC's think they are immune to the Gerudocide when they aren't.... even if you take Nana and forfeit your stock Ganon ***** Sopo and can easily win that giving yourself another stock advantage.

I can say this about every matchup but If you aren't jabbing with Ganon then you need to start, MOAR JABZ.

This is all I can think of, Once again I will discuss any of it with anyone.

 

[Breezy]

I agree with everything Fonz said, except for the part about platform camping. If you have a stock lead, keep jumping around on those platforms. Just don't get caught in a pattern with it, or you'll eat an Uair or two.

Also, if you get a gerudo when both ICs are alive, which you probably won't, due to it not really being worth it, and their blizzard and ice blocks, go for a stomp on they're gua. They'll almost always be mashing attack to try and get nana to punish you. Again, you shouldnt ever really be going for a gerudo if both IC's are there, but every once in a while the mix-up will surprise 'em. I wouldn't suggest going for it unless you already have a decnt lead anyway.

 

[Exalted]

I got IC CG ***** by Z1G.

 

[fonzi21]

Agreed Breezy thanks for putting that in, if you get the lead feel free to platform camp, but if you aren't its a losing battle.

 

[thexsunrosered]

ahh fonz
so much dedication lol

 

[fonzi21]

ahh fonz
so much dedication lol

I still play tons of Ganon. I just don't post much =P I was bored this week, plus I was reviewing all my matchups before Raleigh this weekend.

I have a huge notebook full of my matchups with Ganon, it helps to look over before tournaments.

 

[Z1GMA]

I got IC CG ***** by Z1G.

lmao, ye, I'm good at Chain Grabbing with them,
but I can't play them in general.

I can only Chain Grab light characters, though.
I Nana-stool heavies.

¤-¤-¤

To begin with - Should we be allowed to have 0:100-ratios?
Or should we have 05:95 at worst?

This match-up is one of the two.

Gerudo-effectivness Vs IC:
2/10 - Maybe 3/10, since we can have our way with solo Popo.

 

[Exalted]

Nana should die in a fire.





Popo too.

 

[Breezy]

This is an even MU, IMO.

 

[Dumbfire]

This MU is very simple. You play so bad in the first game that the next game theyll laugh so much that they will kill Nana on purpose, and we actually have a change against Popo.

 

[Exalted]

This MU is very simple. You play so bad in the first game that the next game theyll laugh so much that they will kill Nana on purpose, and we actually have a change against Popo.

How 'bout the third game?

Your plan is flawed O:<

 

[bigbucks]

How 'bout the third game?

Your plan is flawed O:<

They'll get so mad from losing to a ganon that they will ragequit. So no 3rd game.

 

[Z1GMA]

There's really no point in discussing this match-up.

Your mission:
* Smile as you take tons of Blizzard to the face.
* Avoid their grabs at all costs.
* Separate Nana from Popo.
* Fsmash Nana into oblivion.
* Kill Popo.

The only time we have the upper hand is when they're off stage.
Gimp 'em. Gimp 'em hard!

05 : 95

 

[T.testLP]

OK, so there seems to be little mention of ICs desyncs. They have a lot and most of them screws with Ganon.

Also, Ganondorf is one of the easier characters for SoPo Dthrow chaingrab so watch out for that.

Hope I'm not unnecessarily bumping.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

100:0, Gg.

 

[Vermanubis]

100:0, Gg.

I've beaten a ranked IC main in our region twice now. I don't really think it's quite that bad. It's bad, but, definitely not 100:0.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I've beaten a ranked IC main in our region twice now. I don't really think it's quite that bad. It's bad, but, definitely not 100:0.

He/she played and counterpicked wrong.

 

[Vermanubis]

He/she played and counterpicked wrong.

I dunno. Desynced blizzards, got a stock off of me every time he grabbed me, didn't approach a lot, picked Battlefield and FD. I just am very comfortable with the MU.

I'm not saying it's good. 'Cause it's horrible. 75:25 is being extremely generous for Ganon. But it's certainly winnable with sufficient patience and knowledge of how to really split them apart. I won both sets just by ravaging his Nana all three stocks.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I dunno. Desynced blizzards, got a stock off of me every time he grabbed me, didn't approach a lot, picked Battlefield and FD. I just am very comfortable with the MU.

Was the match recorded?

If he/she is desyncing blizzards and not approaching (while approaching when needed to), then that's good. But according to your post it seems he/she was only able to grab you twice the two matches you beat him/her, then something's wrong.

 

[Vermanubis]

Was the match recorded?

If he/she is desyncing blizzards and not approaching (while approaching when needed to), then that's good. But according to your post it seems he/she was only able to grab you twice the two matches you beat him/her, then something's wrong.

One was. But it's on someone's Wii who I don't know the name of.

And yes, he was only able to successfully grab me twice both matches. He grabbed me a few other times, however, his Nana got knocked away the times he grabbed me and didn't kill me. Plus, it's not impossible to not get grabbed by them. It's really hard upon landings, but they took me to stages with platforms mostly, so I was able to land safely most of the time. DAir is best since it pushes them back a lot. Aerial wizkick is good to punish FH blizzard walls. 9/10 the blizzard will hit you first, but like being caught in Bowser or Charizard's flame, you can initiate a move right at the end. It's virtually risk free if spaced properly, as it only poses a risk of being blizzarded for a few percent.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

One was. But it's on someone's Wii who I don't know the name of.

And yes, he was only able to successfully grab me twice both matches. He grabbed me a few other times, however, his Nana got knocked away the times he grabbed me and didn't kill me. Plus, it's not impossible to not get grabbed by them. It's really hard upon landings, but they took me to stages with platforms mostly, so I was able to land safely most of the time. DAir is best since it pushes them back a lot. Aerial wizkick is good to punish FH blizzard walls. 9/10 the blizzard will hit you first, but like being caught in Bowser or Charizard's flame, you can initiate a move right at the end. It's virtually risk free if spaced properly, as it only poses a risk of being blizzarded for a few percent.

It's not possible to not get grabbed by them. Platform stages help, but due to Ganon's slow-poor hitbox below him, Ice Climber's UAir (and other moves) should take full advantage. Your opponent was probably camping during the moments you achieved landing on a platform - which gives Ganon a very advantageous position, unless the Ice Climber's uber good at dodging/predicting/power-shielding. No clue how you got those DAir and Wizkicks in while being on a platform/above, bad Ice Climber you're playing. The fact that your opponent was blizzarding during these moments proves something here.

I know where I'm coming. Not a single game on BF/FD/SV (there isn't any other stage better for Ganon against Icies than these three), can save you from getting grabbed multiple times.

 

[Vermanubis]

It's not possible to not get grabbed by them. Platform stages help, but due to Ganon's slow-poor hitbox below him, Ice Climber's UAir (and other moves) should take full advantage. Your opponent was probably camping during the moments you achieved landing on a platform - which gives Ganon a very advantageous position, unless the Ice Climber's uber good at dodging/predicting/power-shielding. No clue how you got those DAir and Wizkicks in while being on a platform/above, bad Ice Climber you're playing. The fact that your opponent was blizzarding during these moments proves something here.

I know where I'm coming. Not a single game on BF/FD/SV (there isn't any other stage better for Ganon against Icies than these three), can save you from getting grabbed multiple times.

I didn't get on platforms to do it. The only times I got onto the platforms were when I got hit upward and didn't want to land. Like I said, I sometimes intentionally took chip damage from the blizzard so I'd be able to wizkick them. And yes, it is impossible to not get grabbed a few times, but you underestimate my ability to connive and elude my opponents. It's not difficult to avoid grabs when simply using DAir or DTilt. You also need to consider how aggressive and tenaciously I took out his Nana whenever he let himself get hit.

He is not the best in the world, no. But he is ranked in a relatively strong region and has taken sets from our top players. He didn't play perfectly, but what won the matches was not his stupidity, rather, my knowledge of the MU.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I didn't get on platforms to do it. The only times I got onto the platforms were when I got hit upward and didn't want to land. Like I said, I sometimes intentionally took chip damage from the blizzard so I'd be able to wizkick them. And yes, it is impossible to not get grabbed a few times, but you underestimate my ability to connive and elude my opponents. It's not difficult to avoid grabs when simply using DAir or DTilt. You also need to consider how aggressive and tenaciously I took out his Nana whenever he let himself get hit.

He is not the best in the world, no. But he is ranked in a relatively strong region and has taken sets from our top players. He didn't play perfectly, but what won the matches was not his stupidity, rather, my knowledge of the MU.

The problem is, why is your opponent using blizzard in such situations? Underestimating anyone's ability has nothing to do here, I know for a fact that Ganon can not avoid a equally good Ice Climber's grab over and over again. If you're using DTilt as a spacer, then you're opponent is camping. If you're using DAir, then you're opponent isn't approaching or dodging properly.

Yes, I am not doubting that you're knowledge of the MU allowed you to beat him, but that wasn't the point I made before you begun arguing with me.

 

[Vermanubis]

The problem is, why is your opponent using blizzard in such situations? Underestimating anyone's ability has nothing to do here, I know for a fact that Ganon can not avoid a equally good Ice Climber's grab over and over again. If you're using DTilt as a spacer, then you're opponent is camping. If you're using DAir, then you're opponent isn't approaching or dodging properly.

Yes, I am not doubting that you're knowledge of the MU allowed you to beat him, but that wasn't the point I made before you begun arguing with me.

The answer to all of your questions is: because he's not God. He made mistakes. I punished them. I'm careful enough that I knew what and what wouldn't get me grabbed. In the end, I was just more patient and smarter than he was.

We can argue 'til the cows come home. You can nitpick every possible thing he did wrong. I can continue to refute your points. It'll all just end in spam that metes no end.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The answer to all of your questions is: because he's not God. He made mistakes. I punished them. I'm careful enough that I knew what and what wouldn't get me grabbed. In the end, I was just more patient and smarter than he was.

We can argue 'til the cows come home. You can nitpick every possible thing he did wrong. I can continue to refute your points. It'll all just end in spam that metes no end.

I'm the one refuting your points.

So basically, you've proven MY point. Your opponent made many mistakes, if he was playing Ice Climbers to the highest level, or close to it, and same goes to you, then you should have never beaten him.

 

[Vermanubis]

I'm the one refuting your points.

So basically, you've proven MY point. Your opponent made many mistakes, if he was playing Ice Climbers to the highest level, or close to it, and same goes to you, then you should have never beaten him.

We're actually both refuting each other's points. But whatever, maaaan.

In theory, Ganon shouldn't beat anyone. This argument can go in circles ad infinitum. I played in such a way that made him make mistakes, so he lost. I played far better than he did, so he lost. To lose such a good MU for ICs, he shouldn't have lost, correct. But therein comes skill discrepancy. I was simply the smarter and more prepared player.

 

[Clai]

I know where I'm coming. Not a single game on BF/FD/SV (there isn't any other stage better for Ganon against Icies than these three), can save you from getting grabbed multiple times.

Uh... FD is the worst place to fight IC's ever, ever. Ganondorf absolutely needs platforms to make sure that he can actually use his aerial game without getting boned by landing/IC's short height.

While Kalm really needs to stop with his "If Ganondorf wins, it's because the opponent is garbage, end of story" nonsense, he is right, IC's absolutely manhandle Ganondorf. All the Ice Climbers need to do is walk around enough to make sure Ganon doesn't establish stage control, keep close to the ground, and put up shield any time the player feels that Ganon is going to attack. Ganon's grab range is too balls to pose as any threat, Side-B is useless since the IC's are going to try to be in the neutral position as much as possible and thus can easily avoid it on reaction, and using any other attack will eventually come at less-than-perfect spacing and lead to a grab. This is as close to an indisputable 0-100 as you're going to get.

 

[smashkng]

Lol at Kalm believing in perfection. Nobody is free from misstakes, small or huge. Stop theorycrafting without yourself even having played any good IC. MUs seen in practice>>>>> MUs that are just theorycrafted, like Sheik. Also, not many people will take Ganon very seriously, you should also remember that.