[#09] Wario MU Discussion Thread 2010

[Bahamut777]

Discuss...

 

[Exalted]

Get those grab releases goin'.
Nair his approaches.
Beware of Chomp.

 

[A2ZOMG]

6/4 Wario...one of Ganon's best matchups in the upper tiers by far. Wario's approach is actually not that hard for Ganon to stop provided Ganon is just camping on a lead. Reverse U-air beats most of what he can do. And grab releases are fun.

 

[Lord Chair]

6/4 is only applicable when Wario chooses not to time you out. Grab releases are fine, but attempting to grab means you have to risk getting grabbed yourself, considering Wario's grab is a zillion times better: you're taking pretty serious risks for that 25%.

You can say that FH nair beats all of his approaches, but you're in a world of pain if you wrongly read an approach beatable with nair. After all, if he fakes his approach for the 100th time and you commit to FH nair, you can expect claps/dairs/nairs/grabs/farts/lolalotofstuff.

I already noted farts, let's just say they're rather landable on Ganondorf.

Don't shield approach because everything Wario can possibly think of doing beats it.

On the ledge above 100% means you have to take it reallllly cool and not overcommit to ledgejumping. Ledgejump = above Wario = pain.

Do note that none of your effective 'walling' or 'spacing' moves actually lead into anything.

Dash attack predicted airdodge landings.

That's all I have to add for now, I'll probably spend the rest of my time in this thread rebuking others.

EDIT: First rebuke:

Wario's approach is actually not that hard for Ganon

Few characters have solid problems with stopping Wario's approach, the guy barely has range and everyone's moves beat out every offensive approach Wario has. It's a matter of reading, so cut the crap saying 'Ganon beats all of his approaches through X and Y', because that line is applicable to all characters. Hence, you'd better be off saying what I just said: Wario has terrible range (though admittedly, that's knowledge that should be considered obvious.

 

[Exalted]

Oh no, we're doomed.

 

[Juno McGrath]

Assuming the wario player has the decency to fight you... 60:40 our team.

assuming your playing vs... a real son of a *****... that will run from you...

i dont know i dont think i wanna talk about it..

 

[A2ZOMG]

6/4 is only applicable when Wario chooses not to time you out. Grab releases are fine, but attempting to grab means you have to risk getting grabbed yourself, considering Wario's grab is a zillion times better: you're taking pretty serious risks for that 25%.

6/4 is applicable when Ganon has the lead, and it's actually much easier for Ganon to randomly get the lead in this matchup than others, since Wario's approach is much easier for him to stop than others. I would go so far to say that Ganon is more likely to initially gain the lead in this matchup since damage trades are in his favor.

You can say that FH nair beats all of his approaches, but you're in a world of pain if you wrongly read an approach beatable with nair. After all, if he fakes his approach for the 100th time and you commit to FH nair, you can expect claps/dairs/nairs/grabs/farts/lolalotofstuff.

Nah, fullhop N-air is garbage. Wario however has next to no really good answers to Ganon's reverse U-air. I'm serious, it outranges and beats pretty much everything Wario does. And it has little enough lag to be VERY difficult to whiff punish, as well as only being about -7 on block or so (still can be shieldgrabbed though probably).

Few characters have solid problems with stopping Wario's approach, the guy barely has range and everyone's moves beat out every offensive approach Wario has. It's a matter of reading, so cut the crap saying 'Ganon beats all of his approaches through X and Y', because that line is applicable to all characters. Hence, you'd better be off saying what I just said: Wario has terrible range (though admittedly, that's knowledge that should be considered obvious.

For Ganon this is a pretty big deal. Wario really doesn't have much business trying to challenge Ganon's U-air, which can effectively anti-air Wario at pretty much any angle and outranges him. AND it usually outdamages most of what Wario does, which actually gives Ganon a feasible option for acquiring the lead early on. Given that Ganondorf acquires the lead, he can start playing defense with more pivot grabs and retreat B-airs and of course U-airs, and Wario has to respect all of those options.

What I am basically saying is that it's actually very feasible for Ganon to get the lead in this matchup and camp on it, and the risk Wario takes approaching Ganon is sufficient enough for him to actually lose. Wario wins the matchup overall because he fundamentally punishes Ganon harder when Ganon loses the lead.

 

[the king of murder]

Doesn't Wario have an annoying chaingrab on us? I mean sure it is difficult for a Wario to land a grab on us if we know what we're doing but it is still something Ganon has to be aware of.

 

[Exalted]

Almost everyone can chaingrab us <.<

 

[the king of murder]

Wario, Falco, Pikachu, D3, IC, Pit(at lower percent) and Bowser(not sure about that) are the only ones who can chaingrab Ganon. I can't think of more right now.

 

[Exalted]

Z1G's CGd me with ZSS at low percents.

 

[Dumbfire]

ZSS has a Fthrow CG thats possible. Bowser can CG most of the cast.
Ganon can be air release and ground release CG'd by Boozer but mostly they just go for Ftilt or Side b from a grab since thats so much easier.

And yes Wario can Dthrow CG Ganondorf.

 

[Exalted]

Don't forget them Ice Climbers...lol.

 

[Dumbfire]

He did say Ice Climbers.

Wario, Falco, Pikachu, D3, IC, Pit(at lower percent) and Bowser(not sure about that) are the only ones who can chaingrab Ganon. I can't think of more right now.

 

[Exalted]

I know.
I'm talkin' about what you posted, Doomdorf. But yeah, nvm

Back to Wario!

 

[Dumbfire]

I was reacting to you sayng that ZSS can maybe CG Ganon and reacting to TKOM about Bowser and Wario.
I wasn't pointing out all chars that can CG Ganondorf or something that way.

 

[Exalted]

Internet confusion <3

Now, back to Wario.

 

[the king of murder]

Ganondorf can grab release Wario till he is off-stage and than 'thunderstomp his face into the deepest pits of hell. Sadly, landing a grab on Wario is just as hard as Wario landing a grab on you. The one who has the better prediction and lands a grab first will get an advantage.

 

[Dumbfire]

Getting a grab on Ganondorf is a lot easier then on Wario..
Like really a lot. Your best bet to get a grab is techchasing from a Gerudo. GL getting that Gerudo (y)

 

[Exalted]

Ganon's grab range is so poor he might as well try and grab Wario with his balls (of steel).
Wario on the other hand can grab you easily if you're not careful.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You don't FORCE the grab in this matchup. What you do is use Ganon's superior aerials to get the lead and then you CAMP Wario, give him incentive to make unsafe approaches, wall with reverse U-air to keep him frustrated, and provided you have good reactions while turtling, grabbing Wario is far from unrealistic.

Of course, you pretty much lose if you lose the lead in this matchup, since he camps you back BETTER, but winning this matchup is pretty realistic for Ganon, given that getting the lead from the start isn't particularly hard.

And it's usually not a huge deal when you're sent offstage in this matchup, since he'll rarely outright gimp you without a fart charged and bad DI on your part.

 

[the king of murder]

Wario, while having a longer grab range and a better dash speed than Ganon, he mustn't be too predictable with his grabs or he will risk getting grabbed himself(same applies to Ganon).

 

[Exalted]

You don't FORCE the grab in this matchup. What you do is use Ganon's superior aerials to get the lead and then you CAMP Wario, give him incentive to make unsafe approaches, and provided you have good reactions, grabbing Wario is far from unrealistic.

Of course, you pretty much lose if you lose the lead in this matchup, since he camps you back BETTER, but winning this matchup is pretty realistic for Ganon, given that getting the lead from the start isn't particularly hard.

This.
"Forcing"/spamming grabs gets predictable after a while, so you'll probably get punished.

 

[Dumbfire]

I didn't say to force the grab at all. I just said that your best bet was to get it from a also hard to land Gerudo. Ofcourse you will get punished, maybe by a grab of Wario himself like Lord Chair stated wich will get you another good percent, or even a Dthrow CG.
And Ganon'isn't quite the "cant get grabbed character". Ofcourse you can't randomly throw out grabs but its no that hard at all to grab him.

 

[Exalted]

This grab bizness is killing the other aspects of this MU.

If you get a tyre and manage to land a Gerudo, Stutterstep-Dthrow (like in 'Nana Choke) would probably be a good setup, provided that Wario uses his bike for something else than recovering. You should Dair him while he's onstage with his bike, too. DON'T press the attack button near the bike, or you'll get chaingrabbed for some gooood damage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I didn't say to force the grab at all. I just said that your best bet was to get it from a also hard to land Gerudo. Ofcourse you will get punished, maybe by a grab of Wario himself like Lord Chair stated wich will get you another good percent, or even a Dthrow CG.
And Ganon'isn't quite the "cant get grabbed character". Ofcourse you can't randomly throw out grabs but its no that hard at all to grab him.

I personally think not getting grabbed is fundamentally easy, but only applicable when you're not pressured into making punishable mistakes. Fundamentally grabbing is a tool that is usually weak for zoning.

I don't think Wario really has the tools to actually bait or pressure Ganon into getting grabbed easily unless Ganon is forced to approach after losing the lead. Wario doesn't possess massive threat when zoning. His tools for zoning are typically easily anti-aired or don't do particularly amazing damage (trades are much more favorable for Ganon).

 

[Z1GMA]

Wario can CG Ganon to around 100% - Ganon can GR -> RG Wario to 999%.
It's much easier for Wario to grab us then vice versa, although Ganon is more dangerous when he DO get the grab.
A grab on Ganon doesn't always mean a garantueed KO,
but a grab on Wario DOES mean a GANONTUEED KO.

Wario's aerial mobility can be hard to deal with.
A good Wario will punish most of your laggy attacks, so you can't afford to whiff anything.
Usmash is pretty safe, though.
Our Nair is one of our best (if not THE best) attack we've got in this MU.
Use both fullhopped Nairs and shorthopped Nairs - Mix it up.
I recommend FF'ing the SH'd one.
Don't forget to space with Bair and Uair, too, though.
Both FH'd and SH'd.

Dtilt is pretty bad in this MU, since Wario will be floating above its hitbubbles.
Jab is actually OK at keeping Wario away.
Aerudo can choke out his aerials, but don't be predictable with it,
and when you do land a Aerudo - Try N get the grab!
If you see the opportunity, iDA him while he's floating in front of you.
Wizkick his landing lag when you're confident where/when he'll land.

Grabbing Wario out of Gerudo is a sound strategy -- Especially on flat stages, since we don't have any garantueed follow-ups there anyway.
Well, the Quake hits Wario if he DIs in, but it isn't worth the risk.
((( Dtilt is garantueed downhill, though ))).

SH Dair is effective after Gerudo.
It covers both his GUA and his Rise-up.

Wario will try and gimp you whenever you're sent off stage.
A well timed Uair will protect you from getting gimped, when you're recovering.
If Wario is Air Lurking (waiting for your Uair so that he can get in between and hit you), Nair can prevent that due to its long lasting hitbubbles.
If you're beeing Fair Walled away from the stage at low %'s - Hold up+towards the stage and spam Uair.
If he's Chomping the ledge while you're hanging there - Ledge Drop Uair him.

When he's recovering low - Wait for his Bike, then Tipman him.
When he's recovering high - Force an airdodge using Uair, and then punish him with another Uair.

If Wario for some reason would approach you with his Bike, give him the "HAC" (HELL's ANGELS COMBO)
Meaning: Stomp him while he's on his bike -> buffered Fsmash.
The HAC is GANONTUEED if Wario doesn't techroll, which is pretty hard for him since he goes through this really weird Stun Lag.
...I believe we can Stomp -> buffered grab too, when he's on his bike. (Not 100% sure, though.)
((( The HAC works at pretty much any %'s, except really high %'s.)))

Our best "normal" combo from 0% in this MU is
Stomp -> Grab -> Pummel -> GR Fsmash.
(Aside from GR Infinite, of course.)

Grab Release -> SH Stomp is also awesome, since it sets up for Tech Chasing...
...Most likely another grab.

Many Warios are predictable with the fart.
You'll be able to see a certain path in their Fart Game.
Learn to recognize it, and avoid it.
Learn the timer on his farts - The "Haft Waft" can kill us at around 70%.

Their Fsmash is really easy to DI, and it won't kill you if it isn't entierly fresh.
Watch out for their Ftilt, though. It's normaly fresh and has pretty good KO-power.

30 : 70

(I said 25:75 in the Personal Ratio Thread, but I've changed my mind.)

 

[Exalted]

I was gonna ask you to post the Hell's Angels Combo, Z1G. But once again you've read someone's mind.

 

[Dumbfire]

I like the colors ^^

 

[Z1GMA]

I was gonna ask you to post the Hell's Angels Combo, Z1G. But once again you've read someone's mind.

Mindgames, son. Mindgames.

 

[Exalted]

Hey, that's my line!
And yes, those colors sure are pretty...

 

[Lord Chair]

Many Warios are predictable with the fart.
You'll be able to see a certain path in their Fart Game.
Learn to recognize it, and avoid it.

If by predictable you mean that Wario has tons of opportunities to land a guaranteed fart on Ganondorf then yes, it's predictable. There's no point in predicting guaranteed farts because, as a matter of fact, they're guaranteed (didn't see that coming, did you?).

General theorycrafting about Ganondorf doing anything really evil against Wario should be considered null and void. Facts:

- You may grab Wario once or twice.
- That grab will never lead into some wicked chaingrab to spike, simply because that's only possible on FD (GUESS WHAT, YOU NEVER END UP THERE).
- Even if you end up grabbing Wario at the ledge, SDI exists and will be applied during the epic amounts of hitlag the stomp features. Don't expect a spike.

I'll take this opportunity to note that you guys spend way too much time and space bantering, and too little time and space actually noting things relevant to the discussion.

And it's usually not a huge deal when you're sent offstage in this matchup, since he'll rarely outright gimp you without a fart charged and bad DI on your part.

False. Wario has the tools to gimp you. Especially nair's knockback angle does a splendid job at setting up for silly edgeguards. Wario can safely chase Ganon offstage with fair, as well as nair.

I don't think Wario really has the tools to actually bait or pressure Ganon into getting grabbed easily unless Ganon is forced to approach after losing the lead.

Ganon in the air and Wario grounded. Ganon has to land. Ganon realizes he doesn't have the tools to cover his landing. Ganon gets grabbed. This is one of Ganondorf's fundamental flaws, one which is sadly severely exploited by Wario.

When he's recovering low - Wait for his Bike, then Tipman him.
When he's recovering high - Force an airdodge using Uair, and then punish him with another Uair.

Wario has no reason to recover low. If you force him to do so (for example, by tipmanning him after he's lost his jump), then tipmanning is bike is fairly applicable, though.

If Wario recovers high, why do you think you'd be able to 'chase' him with uair? You can't. You simply can't.

ANYONE ELSE WANTS HIS OPINION ON THIS MU TO BE UNVALIDATED?

 

[Exalted]

I got anally exploited by a Wario today :¦

 

[Z1GMA]

If by predictable you mean that Wario has tons of opportunities to land a guaranteed fart on Ganondorf then yes, it's predictable. There's no point in predicting guaranteed farts because, as a matter of fact, they're guaranteed (didn't see that coming, did you?).

That's not what I ment.
And you're a Wario Main yourelf, so you don't see your own **** like we do.
Thus, you can't find anything perdictable within your own playstyle.

btw, why are you quoting multiple ppl's opinions without including their names?
Makes it look one person said it all, which is awkward.

why do you think you'd be able to 'chase' him with uair? You can't. You simply can't.

Are you for real?

Additional question:
Who the hell said anything about "chasing" him with Uair?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

If Wario recovers high, why do you think you'd be able to 'chase' him with uair? You can't. You simply can't.

ANYONE ELSE WANTS HIS OPINION ON THIS MU TO BE UNVALIDATED?

Yes our input on this Match up is unvalidated because you told us we can't, get a grip.

 

[A2ZOMG]

False. Wario has the tools to gimp you. Especially nair's knockback angle does a splendid job at setting up for silly edgeguards. Wario can safely chase Ganon offstage with fair, as well as nair.

Assuming good DI, which every competent player alike implements, you will rarely ever get to apply this, since Ganon's N-air offstage walls edgeguard attempts quite well, and so does his U-air. Your best option is of course the fart or item tossing. Fortunately for Ganon though, Wario's other options for covering low recoveries are very limited.

Ganon in the air and Wario grounded. Ganon has to land. Ganon realizes he doesn't have the tools to cover his landing. Ganon gets grabbed. This is one of Ganondorf's fundamental flaws, one which is sadly severely exploited by Wario.

You sir are theorycrafting a bit incorrectly. Let's put this in perspective. Ganon's reverse U-air not only has about 11 frames of ending lag when autocanceled correctly, it OUTRANGES Wario, and it STILL hits Wario on the ground. I know this is a foreign concept for you, but Ganondorf in this matchup *gasp* actually has an air to ground game. There is no other matchup where reverse U-air makes such an effective wall. It specifically does its job against Wario, a character who generally has poor spacing attacks.

Please tell me how Wario actually exploits this easily for easy grabs. If Ganon is getting shieldgrabbed for this he's walling you incorrectly. Your best bet is to whiff punish with an actual spacing tool of some sort, which for Wario is very difficult to do. Grabs make very poor spacing tools unless you're a tether or DDD/Charizard. Bowser sorta gets a maybe here.

Wario has no reason to recover low. If you force him to do so (for example, by tipmanning him after he's lost his jump), then tipmanning is bike is fairly applicable, though.

Getting hit by F-tilt is good enough to force a situation where Wario can be edgeguarded. And it's not exactly unlandable, given that Ganon already has most of Wario's options covered by camping with reverse U-air. And should you get choked, I'm quite certain it's possible for Ganondorf to F-tilt you out of Choke. Not easy, but possible if he reacts to DI correctly.

To sum it up:

*It's not impossible, and is rather moderately likely for Ganondorf to get the lead since damage trades are in his favor.
*Ganondorf has the tools to cover Wario's approach options quite well if he camps on a lead with pivot grab and reverse U-air, the former being a huge threat, the latter having very good frames and hitbox for this matchup
*Wario punishes Ganon harder than Ganon punishes Wario should Ganondorf lose the lead due to Wario's superior camping

60/40 Wario. Basically Wario crushes the hell out of Ganon just fine should he get the lead, but this matchup is far from unwinnable for Ganon since it's not clear that Wario will actually get the lead, and Ganon has tools that cover Wario's approaches quite well and can score massive reward.

 

[Lord Chair]

I don't put names in my quotetags due to:

- Laziness
- I don't care about who I'm quoting, I'm in a mean mood and just out there to invalidate arguments.

My main point with Ganon in the air is him actually being UP in the air. Not spacing uairs. I though that was ought to be self-evident.

Assuming good DI,

Wrong. Nair's knockback angle is silly enough that, even with proper DI, you'll end up in an awkward position.

Yes our input on this Match up is unvalidated because you told us we can't, get a grip.

Your input on this matchup is dramatically unrealistic.

I'll continue being a major (realistic) *** when I get back from college, kind lads.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Fair enough, if a Ganon player is silly enough to throw out a jump in a bad place, go ahead and grab him. This is the main reason I do not condone fullhop N-air by the way. Of course, assuming Ganon gets the lead, this is much less a problem for him to avoid, when his focus is simply walling.

As for N-air, that move isn't going to gimp Ganon anytime soon unless he foolishly wastes his jumps like a moron. Yeah N-air -> F-air shenanigans might be funny, but Wario isn't exactly good at covering low recoveries. And at higher percents, the knockback angle is precisely 40 degrees on the first hit. Not exactly what I would call a very good gimp tool.

Furthermore, actually landing that move against a good Ganon user in the first place isn't going to be that simple especially if they know how to properly implement U-air out of shield. That alone ensures you don't just get to crossover Ganon for free.

 

[Z1GMA]

I can't think of ANYTHING more predictable than a Wario that wants to "Haft Waft" you
in a 10-second-period.

I don't put names in my quotetags due to:

- Laziness
- I don't care about who I'm quoting, I'm in a mean mood and just out there to invelidate arguments.

Then, you should start doing that, if you respect other users.
Stupid **** can happen, you know.

I don't play Brawl competitive, because that's just dumb.
1on1, Items ON is the only real way of playing this game.
If someone says anything else, they're simply stupid.
Oh, btw, Ganondorf can Grabrelease -> WP Wario, and it's 100% garantueed!
Now that's what I call broken shenanigan.

I don't agree.
I mostly play 1on1, items OFF.
Sure, Ganon is at a disadvantage against most characters, but that's just part of the fun.
I do play FFA with items ON sometimes, though.

Grabrelease -> WP? Garantueed..? *sigh*

 

[Lord Chair]

Respect for others users has nothing to do with using quote tags. General overview is sometimes imperative, not during MU discussions. Invalidating certain presumed facts is done in order to invalidate the presumed facts, whoever states the presumed facts is irrelevant. I'm not attacking people, I'm attacking ideas.