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It's a nerf. There's really no way around it.
I'm in the same boat which I never thought would happen. Both of my mains changed drastically in 3.5/6 that's been the same since 2.1. Sigh.
Fox is already significantly worse than PAL. No shine invincibility, actually has landing lag on recovery, pal usmash, and significantly worse shine spike.
This. The DI mixups were part of what made PM Sheik really fun and not brain dead. With 3.5, I'm not just going to downthrow every opportunity I get. In 3.5, I might do that a bit to condition my opponent, and then I'm playing a mindgame where they know I'm in their head. That was fun. That was interesting. That required me to think about my choices when I've got the grab. Now that we're in 3.6, it's back to the old grab flowchart. Yawn.
Oh yeah, I forgot about those lol. Sorry, wasn't really thinking when I made that post, just was acting upset over backthrow nerf.
They gave him PAL dair...
Did they? I don't think they did. Last I played I'm pretty sure it stays a spike for the entire animation.
Lol I'm using that to help me make the flowchart.
Personally, I'm considering picking up Pit (more due to the fact that I already play this Sheik in melee than anything), and if you want to pick up another character as well, that's one hundred percent your choice, but I've found that you can often follow up on DI away downthrow with a dash-wavedash ftilt or dtilt or something, which easily leads to fair, and that the back throw is way better for setting up early percent gimps, you just need to learn the edgeguarding harder because that's going to be what her gameplay is probably centered around in the future. Personally, I think the edgeguards are as mental, if not more so, than the grab game, just because you need to think about all of the options the opponent could have in their space, and how you can cover as many of those as possible. Something to think about.
I don't disagree, but I also have some other reasons for wanting to quit. I am not a technical player by any means, and while Sheik may be just as good as before if I adapt, it won't be as fun. Perhaps I will still play but drop Sheik and stay with Zelda, but that really bums me out because I just got notably good at the end of 3.5 and my character (Sheilda) got changed extremely drastically 2 patches in a row (Zelda then Sheik) in ways that were less fun for me. Maybe that feeling of disappointment and outrage over my character getting big changes will subside, but for now I'm done competing. Not that I had much time to play before, due to running the tournaments...
A reset is not a huge problem. Like, making her grab game all about automatic techchases doesn't make her a bad character. Its just boring as all hell. Being able to bthrow offstage gimp may make Sheik stronger, even. But its just so boring. And she returns to basically having 1 throw again, ew.Finally got my hands on 3.6 and I think I'll take the edgeguarding setups over onstage hard combos. I don't mind it but I'll definitely miss bthrow > usmash
Edit: just kidding, I ****ing hate it. The most common reward off of grab now is simply a reset.
Well, well, well, I stumble across the person that took my username...
Somebody took Atlas! I'm sorry /cry
Boiko
I actually pretty much agree 100 percent and I think this is a really great post (especially the part about Roy, why is that character still so good??). I think you're right, her throw is no longer as unique as it was before. I think you're suggestions are pretty good as well:Boiko
I mean, the boost grab thing is reliable on only a couple of characters. Dthrow to tipper upsmash is pretty helpful sometimes but will never come into play against players who know the matchup. A lot of the cast has grabs that are literally always free followups with some other DI mixup. From my last set with you, I think that you wouldnt have an issue recgonizing that ike's uthrow is probably one of if not the best throws in the game, but can still net kills of fthrow and bthrow mixup. It wasn't the issue of interaction that warranted the change, the change was to nerf sheik. What's interactive about ike that sheik didn't have before? Both could carry tech chases and combos fairly easily especially off grabs mixups. Even ness has pretty guaranteed stuff off of his dthrow, and a bthrow kill option, although I acknowledge that he doesn't really fall into the same category. I'd argue that a mixup that forced players to guess where they were being thrown based on tendencies and positioning was more interactive than dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow-->dthrow.
Sheik lost her guaranteed (or 50/50) kill setup off a grab, which is unprecedented for anyone who has ever played the charater and is pretty much is the change everyone's pissed about. Sheik still obviously has one of the best throw games, and I actually prefer her melee bthrow against everyone (except roy, but it seems that speculating that character is heresy). The issue is that the mixup has been around for years and people have spent time learning it over 3+ iterations of pm. Personally, I actually liked pm over melee for the sole reason of sheik being more fun and less braindead than melee, because let's face it, melee dthrow is boring. Changing sheik's throw game was inconsistent with the patch (no one except maybe bowser got a change as significant) in the sense that it made her more like melee, which is upsetting to project m sheik players. There were other things they could have done, like change her uthrow so uthrow/dthrow would be a mixup without as potent tech chases, or maybe just make her grabs a little bit slower or change the scaling on them they wouldn't be as good at high percents or cause knockdown at low percents.
I can't deny that her matchup spread was maybe a little over the top, but there were multiple ways that she couldve been changed while still being fun.
Sheik is still good but I'll be playing ike and maybe even mk way more than her. She's more boring than even melee sheik, which is really saying something.
Basically sums up what I would want playing AGAINST Sheik. For me, having to deal with a guess that would kill me at 70-80% on every stage that isn't DL felt pretty lame.
I would argue every version has gotten worse for Sheilda. 3.02 had no endlag, 3.5 had a decent amount, 3.6 the transform takes longer due to the sheer quantity of stuff in the build. That's just transform itself. Both characters were nerfed as well (Zelda in 3.5, Sheik in 3.6), though that could be argued as being good for Sheilda because each character needs the other more...
