Data 6IV Naive - Greninja Frame Data

[Lavani]

To-do:
- Witty thread name. ✓
- Roll, spot dodge, and air dodge intangibility. ✓
- Iron out Substitute particulars. ✓
- Hopefully accurate verification of FAFs and other data in the coming week, when I'll hopefully have better recording equipment. ✓
- Customs...I guess. Not really enthusiastic about this since Greninja's customs aren't that great for the most part, but I'll get to Shadow Dash, Shifting Shuriken, and Exploding Attack eventually at the very least.

Disclaimer: Data that hasn't been pulled straight from the data dump may be a frame off. For the most part this only applies to FAFs and dodges/rolls. Data unfortunately wasn't collected with the best of cameras, though multiple recordings were used in an attempt to ensure accuracy.

Terminology:
Active: The frame hitboxes are active on. Essentially, when the action does whatever it's supposed to do.
FAF: "First Actionable Frame". The first frame you can perform another action on.
Damage: Base damage dealt by the hitbox. Attacks deal x1.05 damage when fresh outside of training.
Angle: Launch angle of the attack.
BKB: Base knockback.
KBG: Knockback growth.
Landing Lag: Frames in which you are unable to act if landing during an attack.
Autocancel: The window during an attack where you can land without landing lag. For example, fair has an autocancel of <13 40>, meaning landing before frame 13 or after frame 40 will result in an "autocancel" and no landing lag.
Invincible: Immune to damage and knockback. On-hit effects such as bombs exploding or hitboxes vanishing still occur.
Intangible: Unable to be hit at all. Attacks pass harmlessly through without on-hit effects occurring.

Color coding:
Active frames, First Actionable Frame (FAF), invincibility/intangibility, landing lag, autocancel

Lastly, if anything seems off or could look better, please say so! I want this to be both accurate and accessible, and your feedback helps!

Misc data
Soft landing: 2f
Hard landing: 4f
Jump squat: 4f
Max walk speed: 1.43 (#4)
Max run speed: 2.08 (#6)
Max air speed: 1.18 (#6)
Max fall speed: 1.85 (#3)
Max fastfall speed: 2.96 (#4)
Weight value: 94 (#28)

Attacks | Active | FAF | Damage | Angle | BKB | KBG | Other
Jab1 | 3-6f | 22f | 2% | 60°, 70°, 80° | 30 | 30 | Next jab: 8f
Jab2 | 3-4f | 22f | 1.6% | 60°, 70°, 90° | 30 | 50 | Next jab: 12f
Jab3 | 5-9f | 36f | 3.5% | 361° | 60 | 100
RapidJabLoop | 2f + every 4f after | | 1%? | | | | Min 14f (4 hits)
RapidJab | 4-5f | 36f | 2% | 45° | 60 | 120
Ftilt | 10-12f | 33f | 6.5% | 361° | 15 | 112 | Can be angled up or down. Same damage/knockback.
Utilt | 9-12f | 33f | 4.5% | 80°, 90°, 92° | 60 | 100
Dtilt | 5-6f | 27f | 7% | 70° | 60 | 40
Fsmash | 13-15f | 50f | 14% | 361° | 30 | 99 | Charge window on frame 8, blind spot along Greninja's arm
Usmash | 12-21f | 52f | | | | | Charge window on frame 9
| 12-17f | | 5% | 366° | 30 | 120 | Sweetspot hit 1 (above Greninja)
| 18f | | 14% | 90° | 30 | 103 | Sweetspot hit 2
| 18-20f | | 11% | 44° | 30 | 100 | Sourspot (sides)
| 21f | | 10% | 40° | 30 | 98 | Sourspot (weak hit)
Dsmash | 16-18f | 55f | 13%, 11% | 361° | 32 | 90 | Charge window on frame 5
Dash Attack | 9-12f | 33f | 7% | 60° | 100 | 40

Aerials | Active | FAF | Damage | Angle | BKB | KBG | Landing Lag | Autocancel | Other
Nair | 12-16f | 65f | 11%, 6% | 60° | 30 | 95 | 12f | <10 40> | 12-13f strong hit, 14-16f weak hit
Fair | 16-17f | 55f | 14% | 45° | 30 | 84 | 18f | <13 40> | Blind spot on Greninja's arm/hand
Bair | | 45f | | | | | 16f | <4 35>
| 5f | | 3% | 30°, 30°, 365° | 0, 100, 130 | 130, 130, 100 | | | Kick 1
| 8f | | 2.5% | 35°, 40°, 365° | 0, 105, 140 | 140, 105, 100 | | | Kick 2
| 13-16f | | 4% | 361° | 60 | 120 | | | Kick 3
Uair | 7-17f | 40f | | | | | 16f | <3 35>
| | | [1.3%]x4 | 366° | 45 | 100
| | | 1.3% | 85° | 100 | 10
| | | 3% | 75° | 40 | 168
Dair | 17-45f | 57f | 8% | 270°(17-19f), 60°(20-45f) | 60 | 100 | 33f | <3 53>

Grabs | Active | FAF
Grab | 14-15f | 29f
Dash Grab | 9-10f | 38f
Pivot Grab | 15-16f | 37f

Grab Actions​

|

Damage​

|

Angle​

|

BKB​

|

KBG​

Pummel | 2%
Fthrow | 5% | 50° | 70 | 45
Bthrow | 8% | 140° | 55 | 60
Uthrow | 5% | 93° | 60 | 120
Dthrow | 6% | 65° | 65 | 50

Specials | Active | FAF | Damage | Angle | BKB | KBG | Other
Water Shuriken (uncharged)| 25f throw | 51f | 3% | 361° | 60 | 100 | 0-39f charge > 3-10% damage
Water Shuriken (full charge) | 65f throw | 91f | | | | |
| 1-29f | | .7%[x5] | 21° | 100 | 50WBG | Initial hits
| 30f | | 9% | 60° | 40 | 122 | Final hit
Shadow Sneak | 12-21f ; 27-28f | 67f | 10%/12% | 48° | 60 | 102/101 | Intangible ; damage/KBG values: flip kick/back kick
Hydro Pump | 19-32, 24-37, 29-42, 34-47f | | 2%[x4] | 65 | 100 | 58°(windbox) | 32f landing lag
Substitute (counter stance) | 8-19f ; 8-30f | 65f | | | | |
Substitute (up) | 0-37f; 40-55f | ? | 14% | 90° | 60 | 100 | 42f landing lag
Substitute (up-diagonal) | 0-37f; 40-55f | ? | 13% | 60° | 60 | 100 | 42f landing lag
Substitute (neutral/side) | 0-37f ; 40-55f | ? | 11% | 361° | 60 | 100 | 42f landing lag
Substitute (down-diagonal) | 0-37f; 40-55f | ? | 13% | 361° | 60 | 100 | 42f landing lag
Substitute (down) | 0-37f ; 40-55f | ? | 14% | 45°/270° | 60 | 100 | grounded°/air°; 42f landing lag

Dodges | Intangibility | FAF | Autocancel
Forward Roll | 4-16f | 30f |
Back Roll | 4-16f | 33f |
Spot Dodge | 2-17f | 26f |
Air Dodge | 2-26f | 32f | 36?>

Ledge Options | Intangibility | Attack On | FAF
Climb | 1-31f | | 33f
Attack | 1-19f | 22f | 56f
Roll | 1-29f | | 50f
Jump | 1-12f | | 13f

Taunts | Active | FAF | Damage | Angle | BKB | KBG | Other
Down Taunt | 30-73f | 80f | 0.5% | 90° | 70 | 100 | Causes hitstun+launches grounded opponents, acts as a windbox against airborne opponents. Hits repeatedly in 3 frame intervals.

 

[Lavani]

Reserved, just in case.

 

[MartinAW4]

Great job, this is very useful information and the formatting makes it much easier to read than in the data dump.

There is just one more thing I`d be interested to know. Is it possible for you to test the FAF frames of pre-patch Usmash, Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak? I really want to know how much end lag has been added (or taken away in the case of SS) to these three moves.

Edit:
I managed to test the attack rate of pre-patch WS, Usmash and SS from which I can get approximate FAF frames:
Usmash 1.0.4 = 1.2 hits/s = 50f FAF
Usmash 1.0.3 = 1.5 hits/s = 40f FAF
So Usmash received approximately 10 frames of end lag and is 25% slower than before.

Water Shuriken 1.0.4 = 1.2 hits/s = 50f FAF
Water Shuriken 1.0.3 = 1.4 hits/s = 43f FAF
So Water Shuriken received approximately 7 frames of end lag and is 16% slower than before.

Shadow Sneak 1.0.4 = 0.9 hits/s = 66f FAF
Shadow Sneak 1.0.3 = 0.8 hits/s = 75f FAF
So Shadow Sneak`s end lag got reduced by approximately 9 frames and is 13% faster.

These are just approximate values though. They can be 1-2 frames off, so it`d be great if you could verify them if you have access to the pre-patch version.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

I was gonna say "excellent thread name!" But then I noticed you used a Hasty nature over a Naive one

No but seriously, great stuff Lavani! Did you use thinkamans data dump, or did you mine this from mastercore yourself? In any case, what's the issue with FThrow? I haven't taken a look at it, but is it formatted weird or something?

 

[Lavani]

Great job, this is very useful information and the formatting makes it much easier to read than in the data dump.

There is just one more thing I`d be interested to know. Is it possible for you to test the FAF frames of pre-patch Usmash, Water Shuriken and Shadow Sneak? I really want to know how much end lag has been added (or taken away in the case of SS) to these three moves.

Edit:
I managed to test the attack rate of pre-patch WS, Usmash and SS from which I can get approximate FAF frames:
Usmash 1.0.4 = 1.2 hits/s = 50f FAF
Usmash 1.0.3 = 1.5 hits/s = 40f FAF
So Usmash received approximately 10 frames of end lag and is 25% slower than before.

Water Shuriken 1.0.4 = 1.2 hits/s = 50f FAF
Water Shuriken 1.0.3 = 1.4 hits/s = 43f FAF
So Water Shuriken received approximately 7 frames of end lag and is 16% slower than before.

Shadow Sneak 1.0.4 = 0.9 hits/s = 66f FAF
Shadow Sneak 1.0.3 = 0.8 hits/s = 75f FAF
So Shadow Sneak`s end lag got reduced by approximately 9 frames and is 13% faster.

These are just approximate values though. They can be 1-2 frames off, so it`d be great if you could verify them if you have access to the pre-patch version.

I'll get around to that at some point, it's something I was wondering about too. I'll actually be rather sad if Water Shuriken really got +7f end lag, every other projectile I checked that was nerfed got 4~5f ;_;

I was gonna say "excellent thread name!" But then I noticed you used a Hasty nature over a Naive one

No but seriously, great stuff Lavani! Did you use thinkamans data dump, or did you mine this from mastercore yourself? In any case, what's the issue with FThrow? I haven't taken a look at it, but is it formatted weird or something?

Spoiler

I always used Naive personally, I just went with whatever nature was used most on Smogon's stats in November because I don't keep up with Pokemon these days.

About 50/50. I spend more time looking at MasterCore, but Thinkaman's pastebin is admittedly 100x easier to copy numbers down from. There's nothing wrong with fthrow, I just forgot to get its numbers :V

 

[cong]

nvm :<

10char

 

[Marilink]

The fact that standing grab comes out on frame 14 just kills me. =/

Thanks for making this!

 

[Lavani]

Update: Added some data for dodges. Unfortunately it's really hard to test when invuln starts on 3DS so I'm trusting that the blinking isn't lying for that, but FAF and invuln end should be accurate.

Greninja's rolls and spot dodge are surprisingly consistent. Invuln ends when he reappears.

Air dodge actually has quite a lot of superfluous end lag negated by its early FAF - its FAF even occurs before the autocancel window. At a certain height we can cancel the end lag of air dodge with nair or fair and cancel the landing lag (this was found awhile ago by @DeLux, but there was speculation that it was removed in 1.0.4 - guess not!)

In this demonstration, left doesn't cancel the air dodge while right air dodges two frames later but cancels the landing lag with nair:

Tentatively going to say that the FAF looks to be ~5 frames before the autocancel.

 

[Conda]

Is Greninja's roll good or bad, comparatively?

 

[BlinkIV]

I love you.

 

[Jaguar360]

Got a question. Is safety on block/whiff based on FAF or is that for a different stat?

 

[Lavani]

Is Greninja's roll good or bad, comparatively?

Limited data to compare to on this front, from what I know his forward roll is average and his back roll is a tinge laggy, but I haven't seen roll data for more than a handful of characters.

I love you.

ily2bby

Got a question. Is safety on block/whiff based on FAF or is that for a different stat?

To some extent. FAF is the first frame you can act, so one frame after the end lag, but more specifically safety would be related to how much cooldown there actually is after the active frames, as well as how much shieldstun the attack has in regards to its safety on block. Without Wii U I lack the means to get this data, but data in other threads seems to suggest it's based on the damage of attacks; 14% or stronger hits cause pushback on shield as well.

Some examples (shieldstun values are hypothetical but should be close to accurate):
- Ftilt has 29 frames of end lag, and about 2 frames of effective shieldstun. Assuming its first active frame is shielded, the opponent can punish with anything 22f or faster after shielddrop (7 frames).
- Landing with fair has 18f landing lag, about 4 frames of effective shieldstun, and causes pushback on shield. Assuming fair is shielded 4 frames before you land, the opponent has 11 frames to punish after shielddrop, minus additional frames needed to close the gap if Greninja is outside their range (proper spacing is important to shield safety!)

Hopefully that makes sense, I'm kind of bad at explaining things clearly.

 

[Gunla]

Stickying, hope you don't mind. I run Timid, actually~

 

[Jaguar360]

To some extent. FAF is the first frame you can act, so one frame after the end lag, but more specifically safety would be related to how much cooldown there actually is after the active frames, as well as how much shieldstun the attack has in regards to its safety on block. Without Wii U I lack the means to get this data, but data in other threads seems to suggest it's based on the damage of attacks; 14% or stronger hits cause pushback on shield as well.

Some examples (shieldstun values are hypothetical but should be close to accurate):
- Ftilt has 29 frames of end lag, and about 2 frames of effective shieldstun. Assuming its first active frame is shielded, the opponent can punish with anything 22f or faster after shielddrop (7 frames).
- Landing with fair has 18f landing lag, about 4 frames of effective shieldstun, and causes pushback on shield. Assuming fair is shielded 4 frames before you land, the opponent has 11 frames to punish after shielddrop, minus additional frames needed to close the gap if Greninja is outside their range (proper spacing is important to shield safety!)

Hopefully that makes sense, I'm kind of bad at explaining things clearly.

Ah, that does make sense. Very helpful to know.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Somebody should get the frame data for D-Taunt. The active frames seem to be a high number, with low endlag afterward.

I've had some success using it to beat multiple ledge options; having frame data would make theorycrafting much easier.

 

[FullMoon]

Wait really? Down-Taunt can seriously be used as a move?

It would be hilarious if it did but does it really work for anything?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The high number of active frames means that it will beat Ledge Jump, Ledge Attack, and Ledge Climb if they buffer the ledge option (as people tend to do in order to make sure they can't be ledge trumped). If you hit with the late part, it totally allows you to follow up from it.

Greninja doesn't seem to have any other options for lingering hitboxes, so I figured I'd test it, and it seems to work at least marginally well.

 

[Lavani]

I actually completely forgot he even had a taunt with hitboxes.

I'll look into it later tonight.

EDIT: Actually, I found the taunt in MasterCore (subaction 1AB) and the active frames are 30-73f. I'll get the FAF later.

EDIT2: 80f FAF

EDIT3: I'm actually learning quite a bit about this taunt lol, it has some interesting quirks. Updated the OP.

 

[FullMoon]

Oh wow, if Down Taunt happens to actually be an usable move for Greninja, it's going to be the most hilarious and disrespectful move in this game.

Down Taunt new meta.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I guess that means that aiming to hit late against Ledge Attack/Ledge Climb is best, since there's something like less than ten frames between them, both options are grounded so it causes hitstun in that case, Ledge Jump would still push the opponent upward via windbox which prevents you from getting punished, and it might give us enough time to punish or at least have frame advantage against Ledge Rolls. Outright loses to people waiting for a ledge drop aerial, but it's not a losing proposition in any other case.

Ledge option frame data would be swell, too. That's my current major investment; I'm trying to get reliable punishes for as many characters as I can.

 

[Lavani]

I should probably also note that taunts can be used while charging Shadow Sneak, and cancelled at any point with the teleport. Pretty sure that won't get you followups off the taunt but it could mix things up if you've been using it in the match already; also worth noting that the shadow usually isn't visible due to the camera angle when the opponent's hanging onto the ledge (unless Wii U stages have noticeably different camera angles, I admittedly never paid attention).

I'll get to ledge options...at some point. In the next few hours, I guess.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That might legitimately have a place against some Ledge Rolls if we can react quickly enough, and/or get us away from the ledge (or straight up punish ledgehop aerials!) if someone decides to hold it and punish post-taunt. Greninja might end up being deadlier to ledge opponents than previously seen.

Does inputting Forward-B mid-run allow us to run up to the ledge and taunt without having to come to a stop? That would be even better.

 

[FullMoon]

I think that might be possible with Running Shadow Sneak, but the timing for it is pretty strict. Normally Shadow Sneak forces you to walk while you're holding B. Unless I misinterpreted what you asked about.

 

[Lavani]

Running Shadow Sneak requires that you start Shadow Sneak on the transition frame from the dash to run animation. You can also start it off a foxtrot for a more lenient timing, but it's more telegraphed if your opponent knows about the trick.

 

[Kite0692]

I have a question:

How many frames it takes to drop the shield and be able to attack?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Seven, if I recall correctly. However, if your shield hasn't been hit, you have to wait at least 11 frames before you can start to drop your shield. That's a Smash 4-centric quirk.

If you powershield, you can cancel the shield drop animation with whatever you want, effectively making it zero frames on a powershield.

 

[MartinAW4]

That might legitimately have a place against some Ledge Rolls if we can react quickly enough, and/or get us away from the ledge (or straight up punish ledgehop aerials!) if someone decides to hold it and punish post-taunt. Greninja might end up being deadlier to ledge opponents than previously seen.

Does inputting Forward-B mid-run allow us to run up to the ledge and taunt without having to come to a stop? That would be even better.

That`s interesting. I didn`t realize how many get-up options down taunt covered. Too bad it doesn`t combo into anything, but at least it can lead to a charged Fsmash if the opponent air dodges as soon as he can.

I don`t think SS is a good move to use alongside Dtaunt because they can just wait it out until it triggers and punish it with a getup attack or grab. Though now that I think about it, infinite SS might actually work. We could set it up after sending the opponent far enough off stage. If we send the shadow away from the ledge, it might reach their roll and we could hold is as long as we wanted. This way we would cover every option they have (get-up attack, normal get-up and ledge hop with Dtaunt and ledge roll with SS).
The only problem is that we couldn`t get any follow-ups from Dtaunt because we would have to release SS before we could use any other attack. But still, at worst that`s a guaranteed 2% damage and at best an easy kill with the back hit of SS. I`ll have to give this a try.

Another interesting thing about Dtaunt is how it interacts with jumps. Normally against a grounded opponent Dtaunt deals 2% damage. However if we hit them while they are rising during a jump, we deal barely any damage (around 0.1%), but they get sent much farther upwards. And if we time the Dtaunt so that they land on the water, they get stuck in it and take 7% damage.

 

[KERO]

Actually, I believe that if the opponent is hit near the end of Dtaunt, it can combo into Uair. Super interested in testing what characters can be hit during get-up attack, rolls, etc., now. Will probably have the chance on Friday or Sunday.

 

[tushlife]

what is Greninja's fastest OOS option other than jab? would it be d-tilt?

 

[Lavani]

what is Greninja's fastest OOS option other than jab? would it be d-tilt?

Correct.

Fastest three options are 10f for shielddrop jab, 12f for shielddrop dtilt, and 14f for shieldgrab. Sad to say, our OoS options are pretty awful.

Also I just realized I never got around to ledge options, whoops. That'll happen at some point this weekend, for real this time.

 

[tushlife]

thanks! i should start using that more instead of shield-grab because d-tilt to f-smash / u-smash KO's sooner than grab to nair / f-air / up-air. i really appreciate this thread

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Depending on distance from the opponent, footstool is technically fastest; that's a Frame 1 option in mid-air after the jumpsquat. It also cancels grab animations, so if someone is trying to grab you, you can use that to footstool them out of any part of the grab and "combo" into D-Air.

I wonder how many frames jump -> immediate D-Air takes to get out of range of common attacks.

 

[Probalo]

Great thread!

 

[Lavani]

Long-awaited update (lol my good camera broke ;;), but better late than never, right?

- Misc. info added to top of post, covering things such as various speeds, basic landings, jumpsquat, etc.
- Ledge options added
- Upgraded from Hasty to Naïve to better handle the meta

(@ Gunla can I get a Data tag on this thread? pls ty

)

 

[FullMoon]

Huh. Greninja is heavier than I thought.

What's the average for the jumpsquat by the way? I remember you saying that Zelda has a frame 6 jumpsquat and from the looks of it Greninja has frame 4

 

[Lavani]

Huh. Greninja is heavier than I thought.

What's the average for the jumpsquat by the way? I remember you saying that Zelda has a frame 6 jumpsquat and from the looks of it Greninja has frame 4

Jumpsquats range 4-8 in this game, to my knowledge, with 5 being "average" and 4-6 encompassing most characters.

 

[bc1910]

@ FullMoon Ninja has the fastest jump squat in the game along with most speedster-type characters. And Mega Man for some reason lol

Those mobility stats are amazing. Considering every other fast character has some kind of mobility deal-breaker (usually air speed, occasionally fall speed) I think we have the best overall raw mobility in the game. Not a single stat lower than 6th best haha.

 

[FullMoon]

I believe the one thing Greninja is not too good at mobility-wise is aerial deceleration, in that you can't steer the direction of his jump much unlike, say, Megaman, meaning we commit to our jumps more. Don't quote me on that though, I have no idea how aerial deceleration works.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Any chance we could get the frame data on Exploding Attack (Custom Down-B2)? I don't know how long the invincibility, if any, lasts.

 

[Lavani]

Any chance we could get the frame data on Exploding Attack (Custom Down-B2)? I don't know how long the invincibility, if any, lasts.

Sorry, didn't get an alert for this! The best I can do right now is a ~59.8fps recording so I'll leave it out of the OP for now, but approximately:

40-42f Active
15-54f Intangible
93f FAF