TrueRedemption
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2007
- Messages
- 278
Introduction
So this is the result of me having too many ideas, theories, suggestions, and not enough time to do it all in any consistent schedule. I've numerous times mentioned making some long post or rant about this or that when I have time, and thats what I intend this thread to be. Today I will not cover everything I want to, and I fully expect I'll have constantly have new ideas or discussions that need posting in the future. To account for this, and to simply in general organize the Olimar boards a bit more, I plan on this thread being regularly updated with new discoveries, theories, rants, and whatever else the Olimar community would find useful. With so much still to learn and develop about Olimar, and all the directions people are headed in right now, I want to provide a type of safe haven for good topics that need work or should be kept reference while other new topics take attention and dominate the top of the forum. However, while attempting to do all this, I do not want to step on NC Echo's guide's turf, people should head there for the solid start to anyone unfamiliar with Olimar. Consider this more of a supplement, further reading for those deeply interested in Olimar and the details of his play. I'm not certain exactly how to keep it structured and organized, but that'll develop naturally if this thread/idea ends up working out. So now that you know what I'm trying to do here, lets get to it...
Table of Contents:
[1000] A Closer Look into Pikmin: Differences in effects due to pikmin color
[1001] Damage
[1002] Range
[1003] Knock Back
[1004] Miscellaneous
[1005] We Are All Special: a summary of pikmin differences offering the best use for each
[2000] The Natural Order of Things: How the whistle orders the pikmin, and what it means
[2001] How it Works
[2002] What does it Mean
[3000] Where To Play: Best, worst, and indifferent stages for Olimar
[4000] To Camp, or Not to Camp: Introductory discussion to factors that should influence situational play style
[5000] Just WAC It: A write up detailing the super armor Olimar gains using whistle
[6000] Olimar Movie Rentals: Somewhat up to date collection/review of the best Olimar videos around
[7000] Advanced Techs: While in theory this entire thread is full of advanced techs and play theory, heres where I'll have the small little miscellaneous tricks worth picking up, and why they are useful.
[7001] Pivot/Dash Cancel/Stutter Step
[7002] Turn Around Grab
[7003] Tether Recovery (Lack of) Lag
[7004] Grabbed from Ledge
[7005] Dash Buffer IASA
[7006] Potential Techs
[8000]Character Match-Ups:
[8001] A Start
A Closer Look into Pikmin Differences
I figured I'd start out with an idea of mine that got a lot of response, and after some time and frustrating yet boring work, I believe you'll be happy with the results.
Damage:
[1001]
This is all taken straight from Echo's guide, but for the discussion here I feel its useful. Things have been just slightly reorganized to focus on Pikmin differences.
*Note that this isn't in the "natural order" that is the order primarily offered by a whistle. I'll get around to fixing that later*
Summary:
Aerials:
R>B=P>Y>W
Of note here is that Blue are as capable in the air as Purple, somewhat unexpectedly.
Throws:
B>Y=P>R>W
The throws are somewhat variable and confusing, but for a standard trend this is how it looks. See Pikmin specific sections for details about the throw oddities.
Smashes:
P>R=B>Y>W
Purple not surprisingly does the most damage, and modest Blue holds its own compared to Red.
Range:
[1002]
This is newly organized and confirmed data. What is measured here is the distance the hit box travels from Olimar.
Smashes:
FSmash:
R=Y=B=W>P
Pretty standard what you'd expect. I extensively tested this after rumor that yellow may or seems to have more range, but I can assure you all but purple reach just as far.
USmash:
R=Y=B=W>P (Vertical Height)
Y>R>B=W=P (Horizontal distance to Olimar's side)
Again nothing too surprising here, it had been mentioned somewhere that yellow had increased horizontal range, which I found to be correct. Interestingly Red also had some additional horizontal range compared to the rest. In reality though the tiny difference in this horizontal range will not play any role as far as using it to an advantage.
DSmash:
R=Y=B=W=P
The is no difference in how far the hit boxes extend from Olimar among any pikmin color.
Aerials:
All Aerials:
R=Y=B=W=P All Pikmin types have the same size hit boxes on aerial attacks. This was one of the hardest things to test, but I am confident in the results. If by some more precise test you are able to prove this is not true, let me know, but you have the burden of proof, so don't just say it seems like it or you just think so, tell me precisely the test you did to determine this.
Grabs:
Grab Range:
B=W>R=Y>P
This is a comparison of how far away from Olimar specific pikmin are able to grab your opponent. The difference between B W and R Y is not much relative to P, but worth knowing.
Latch:
Distance Thrown
W>R=B>Y>P
This is relative horizontal distance from Olimar, nothing too surprising or earth shaking but tested and confirmed. Of course worth note is the obvious arc yellow follow, giving them the most vertical distance, however they don't travel as far horizontally consequently.
Knock Back:
[1003]
Knowing how much pow each punch packs in general is important, but here we look at the differences wearing different color gloves makes.
Smashes:
FSmash:
R>B>Y>W>P
Purple is not in fact the weakest FSmash, but for whatever reason its knockback is almost entirely vertical, causing them to travel the shortest distance horizontally. This is certainly worth knowing, as it provides an interesting option to start or even continue juggling. The difference between Red and Blue is small, even at increased percents.
USmash:
P>R>B>Y>W
The standard knock back trend is exhibited here. The difference between Red and Blue is small, even at increased percents.
DSmash:
P>R>B>Y>W
The standard knock back trend is exhibited here. The difference between Red and Blue is small, even at increased percents.
Aerials:
All Aerials:
R>P>B>Y>W
The knock back differences between Purple and Blue are very small, only noticeable at higher percentages really, and both of them are close to Red relative to the other differences.
*A Note About DAir* All pikmin colors are actually capable of spiking the opponent. However how strong this spike is varies greatly between color and the percent of the opponent.
Throws:
FThrow:
P>B>R=Y>W
Blue while doing the most damage, does not actually throw the furthest if all the throws were averaged, Purple does.
BThrow:
B>P>Y>R>W
Probably the biggest cause of interest in knowing pikmin order resulted from recognizing a Blue pikmin, Olimar's back to the edge, and this throw. The devastating knock back of this throw is potentially Olimar's most reliable KO move given a blue pikmin. None of the other pikmin come close to Blue's back throw.
UThrow:
P>B>R=Y>W
I first noticed this watching Echo's replays, purple has a very good up throw, not quite a blue BThrow but comparable. In general more useful than the BThrow, a Purple UThrow may kill, but at least will set up for juggling nicely. Theres a pretty big knock back difference range for this throw.
DThrow:
P>R=Y=B>W (Horizontal)
P>R>Y>B>W (Vertical)
The most commonly used throw follows the standard pattern. Of note for combos is also how high the opponent is thrown (disregarding DI of course) as this varies as well between pikmin color.
UpB:
R=Y=B=W=P
Interestingly I found UpB knock back is not so much dependent on color as much as the angle and part of the chain that hits your opponent. Damage is slightly variable on color, which would play the slightest role in knock back since higher % causes more knock back.
*Note about Stage Spiking with UpB* Both Red and Purple are capable of spiking an opponent who is gimping your recovery but not invincible at the time. Much like the DAir spikes however, the spike is more effective the higher the percent your opponent is at.
Miscellaneous:
[1004]
Stuff I didn't really have a place to put, but I felt would work better in a section llike this rather than elsewhere.
Pikmin HP Differences:
P:15 > B:14 > R:9 = Y:9 > W:4
Again borrowed from Echo for relevance reasons, many people are a tad surprised by the HP of blues, but overall just good info, relevant to the pikmin specific arguments to follow.
Elemental Attacks:
Red and Yellow cause elemental attacks, shown by a little fire or electricity and unique sounds. However there is also more to it than this. Attacks landed by these two colors have longer hit lag than the others. To cover my bases, what I mean by hit lag here is that upon contact the actual "hit" pauses movement of the hit box and opponent for some number of frames. For example when you are hit by Samus' charged shot, you are "frozen" for a noticeable time before your hit with knock back. So whats all this mumbo jumbo mean for Olimar? Well its simple, Olimar's hit boxes as we all know are disjointed. What that means is while the Red/Yellow pikmin are paused in this hit lag, Olimar is acting as normal, allowing for him to get through more of the move lag prior to the opponents knock back and hit stun (hit stun is time you can't act because you've just been hit, generally higher at higher %s and stronger knock backs) which effectively allows Olimar to better link moves, because the opponent is stunned/lagged for longer. This is why Red and Yellow seem able to combo better than the others. Particularly yellow, as they in general have shorter knock back that doesn't know the opponent too far away, as well as the increased hit lag. Also, however not confirmed, it would seem the hit lag of Yellow is slightly longer than the hit lag of Red, but it is not certain.
One thing I was not able to test yet was whether certain pikmin have unusual hit stun patterns. I am confident there isn't much of a usable difference yet to be found, or it would have been noticeable and mentioned already. However it is a remaining unknown if any of you have some precise way of measuring it.
Latch Stuff:
Latch does experience diminishing returns, with overuse the damage each pikmin does will decrease. However the number of hits a pikmin does is strictly dependent on the percentage of the opponent, so a diminished Blue latch will still hit a 0% opponent 9 times, but for only 1% each time. Here is the most recent mapping of % = # hits I've seen, credit to TheOJ:
0% - 9-8 hits
25% 8 hits
50% 7-6 hits
75% 6 hits
100% 5 hits
125% 4hits
150% 3.4 hits
175% 3 hits
200+ 2 hits
(anyone willing to confirm this?)
When latching pikmin, they actually travel at different rates. I'm not talking about simple horizontal speed however. Basically Red Blue and Purple pikmin all are landing when the latch lag frames finish, yellow are still in the air, and white, while also having gone the furthest, also actually hit the ground before the lag finishes.
I'm am not certain however (que for someone to test, or eventually I'll get around to it) if all the colors latched to an opponent hit at the exact same rate of hits/second. It seems so, but I've never taken specific time to give it close attention to confirm anything.
Pluck Percents:
Thus far we (Keeper NC_Echo and I) have only obtained substantial evidence for Final Destination and Battlefield. Both stages suggest a set of common percentages for each color as follows:
Red: 23% Yellow: 23% Blue: 23% White: 15% Purple: 15%
However there is strong belief that different stages offer different percentages. For instance a few minutes spent on the Ice Climbers's stage will give strong evidence, as your plucking much nearer to 50% Blues there, however not large scale recorded data has been posted thus far.
We Are All Special:
[1005]
So wheres all this leave us? Hopefully not just lost confused and overwhelmed. This along with the basics mentioned on the Dojo and in Olimar's guide totals to a large amount of information specific to each color pikmin. What follows is my understanding of each color's identity, how to use each color's strengths and avoid their weaknesses.
Red: The fiery pikmin, Red is most at home in the air. Red dominates not only the % damage of all aerials, but also their knock back. Where this becomes a problem is for combos at middle percents, where the increased knock back starts to push opponents too far away, but at least your giving them solid great damage. Red's brute force in the air isn't lost on the ground however, as they boast great numbers in the smash department, particularly the FSmash. An unexpected detail is the Red DThrow, suddenly red breaks the typical damage pattern and jumps up to second. In my mind this begs for a Red DThrow early, which paired with Red's elemental attack can lead perfectly into combos, most commonly followed by a FAir (a combo still referred to as the textbook combo, despite the failure of the entire long original combo suggested.) However these guys are best kept for hitting (hard) rather than grabbing. Also note the resistance to fire attacks, making these guys somewhat favorable against foes such as Charizard and Snake.
Yellow: Their big ears offer them interesting characteristics, including the ability to generate electricity. Unfortunately however the ears also make them less aerodynamic, which causes for less force to actually connect with your opponent. Less force is less damage and knockback, though they try hard to make up for it with their elemental attack. Fortunately for them though more knock back is not always a good thing. In your most successful combos you'll find yellow pikmin are usually the ones responsible for the connected moves, typically initiated and finished however by the other colors. Detailed "true" combos have yet to be developed for Olimar, but don't be surprised if when any come out they require a yellow pikmin or two. If your stuck with a yellow in a non combo situation, of note is their interesting slow latch path. Overall though, when not comboing, yellow generally offers somewhat sub par options. Energy attacks don't hurt these guys, something to note against laser spams and electric rodents.
Blue: At a glance, Blue doesn't seem anything special. Sure they don't drown, but theres only a few water levels anyway, they don't have any elemental attack, they seem just somewhat... standard. As shown above however they don't set standards, they break them. Only in 3 specific places do they finish any lower than tied for second relative to the rest. Consider Blues as your go to clutch players. When you really need someone to do whatever it takes, you won't ever be wrong using a Blue. While a lack of weaknesses is good, playing to strengths is even better. Throwing is their specialty, a Blue BThrow demands respect, and the rest offer enough damage that when grab range is also taken into account they can only be described as devastating. Consider this, a grab, two smacks, and a BThrow from a blue pikmin is equivalent to a FSmash from a purple. On top of this, Blue pikmin end up only 1 HP short of purple pikmin, making it easier to keep them around for cycled use. The numbers don't lie, and while they don't offer an elemental attack to aid comboing, Blue still are far and away the overall best pikmin.
White: The runt of the metaphorical litter, Whites aren't interested in hurting with their hit so much as maliciously poisoning whomever they touch. Unfortunately however, their unique approach requires time to truly sicken an opponent, severely limiting their options. So severely limiting their options that it really leaves only one, Latch. Sure their grab range is only paralleled by blue, but their throws are weak and not consistently useful. It also seems as though they do an elemental attack, however if it is the effects are negligible and the drastically reduced knock back reduces hit stun so much whites can't be used to combo. Also they'll die at the drop of a hat, or many characters jabs, so I'll reiterate, Latch. Whites fly faster, further, and hit three times harder than the rest using Latch. Anything else should only be dire circumstances, such as your unaware that a white is next or you simply need to land a move to gain enough space to pluck new usable pikmin.
Purple: Short and fat, Purple are the bouncers of the pikmin community. Get in their way and you'll feel it, they won't be pushed around easily. Unfortunately, as in nature with size does not come grace, Purple pikmin are severely limited by range in certain situations. What good is hitting hard if they can't actually get to your opponent to hit them? This range limitation puts interesting restraints on efficient Purple use. What I suggest is sticking to Aerials, DSmash, UpB, and the aware knock back Latch with them. A Purple latch is a great tool for disrupting an opponents camp or approach, as well as a potential life saver against a ledge hog gimp. The other moves are all equally ranged independent of pikmin color, allowing Olimar to make full use of Purple's power, without paying any of the consequences. Given a free guaranteed close shot however, USmash and FSmash both have good vertical knockback and damage, which along with UThrow are useful for potential kills or at least great juggling opportunities.
The Natural Order of Things
[2000]
First is a direct quote taken from dmauro, who with help from Yakt-NJ figured out how whistle orders pikmin. Since pikmin specific strategies and uses are the basics of advanced Olimar play, this is obviously pretty important, as the whistle is currently the easies way to manipulate pikmin order. Below the explanation of how it works is a commentary by me on an interesting question raised by the whistle order.
How It Works:
[2001]
What Does It Mean?
[2002]
So we can now have some control over what pikmin is next in line, given the time to whistle. We can even use preparation to better use this tactic, perhaps leaving the whistle at White so should we need to toss a purple at a ledge hogging all it takes is one whistle and having a purple in tow. Obviously this is just one simple example, perhaps you want to have red next for aerials, or blue for grabs, the option is now there for a tad bit of forethought and strategy. This however is not at all related to the interesting point I'd like to offer.
My realization, is that more than any prior super smash brothers move in the series, this move is a direct communication from the developers to the players regarding how a player should play. Considerably over half of Olimar's moves are dependent on Pikmin, which evidenced above means all of those moves have variable results due to pikmin color differences. (Truth is, as pointed out, that this is simply the order they lined up in when whistled in the games ^-^) What Whistle does is give us a natural order of things the way the developers intended things to be done. So rather than attempt to exhaust this topic myself, since I've never seen it before on the boards, I'm going to give a relatively short write up of what I've come up with on this topic, and then look to you all for multiple other perspectives to be discussed and developed.
Red Yellow Blue White Purple. We all know this (or will) instinctively, a rhythm of sorts for Olimar's game. But why this beat? Based solely on the Pikmin identities I offered above, heres my conclusion. Red, good aerials and at low %s usable combo starters due to the elemental attack. Naturally they'd come first. DIed aerials is by no means a new method of approach, and in no way a bad approach option for Olimar. Or if the opening is elsewhere, why not go with the grab or whatever other combo start you can get? Yellow, the combo continuers would naturally fall early in the cycle, below %s are too high to combo, but not first because they are better able to continue than start combos. Blue, the Jack of All Trades in the middle of the pack. Perhaps you just strung together a 2 or 3 hit combo with red and yellow, Blues up next for the last hit of the combo. This isn't SSBM, its no kill combo, but stringing together 3 or 4 moves like that will be a lot of damage. Or perhaps you didn't get it all right and they broke free early, you've still got Blue, good at everything, to get yourself back in control, maybe a grab to throw off the stage and try for a middle % ledge guard? With the great knock back and damage of blue, its not hard to get your opponent off the stage recovering. Olimar isn't the best to go chasing over botomless pits with, but with White up next you can still cause trouble. A good throw sticks a white onto your opponent trying to recover. This means your opponent will usually either have to swat it away, potentially opening up a window to punish their recovery, or take a few costly hits from white while focusing on recovery. White being able to fly so far so fast, its funny how well this idea fits. Next we come to purple. At this point, if things have gone anything like i've mentioned up to this point, your opponent is hurting. Not 150% or anything crazy, but certainly feeling it and at the edge of KOable %s. So why not bring up the biggest bruiser, overcome his range struggles and send your opponent flying fast and hard. Should the KO still not come never fear, Red is back up and they are no weaklings either.
Now I realize how incredibly theory craft that last paragraph is, please no one take it for practicable truth of how Olimar should be played. Many times you won't find yourself with all 5 types of pikmin, and adjustments will have to be made. However I do think that its a certainly usable and interesting idea making use of the natural order. Like I said I don't believe the order is random, and I'd be interested to see just how well this suggested overview built from the basic details actually plays out. What are your ideas and thoughts?
Where To Play
[3000]
So until an actual official stage list of neutrals, counter picks, and bans, this section is obviously subject to change. Not to mention I find it highly unlikely even my suggestions here are without fault, meaning this for a while still will be more of a fluid/discussion section, with changes and notes as points are made etc... I do believe this to be a strong start though, a solid list to work from.
Great Stages:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Corneria
Shadow Moses Island
Norfair *Moved due to popular demand, Not positive i'm convinced yet ; ) *
Pokemon Stadium 1
Luigi's Mansion
Middle Stages:
Green Hill Zone
Pirate Ship
Bridge of Eldin
Battleship Halberd
Castle Seige
Frigate Orpheon
Mario Circut
Electroplankton
Pokemon Stadium 2
Green Greens
Distant Planet
Worst Stages:
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Pictochat
*Note* For detailed reasoning behind some of these picks, as well as other peoples thoughts/discussion, please check out the original topic here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154907
To Camp, or Not To Camp, that is the question...
[4000]
This next section is truly disorganized at the moment, but wanted to put it here. This is exactly what I meant about a great thread that simply got lost in the shuffle unfortunately. This should be a primary discussion point, people breaking down the advantages or disadvantages of each, specific matchups... tons of potential here. What is below is a couple combined posts of mine breaking down a few of the primary ideas. I would love peoples input/insight/discussion on this topic as I mentioned I believe theres a lot of value in this topic and working out its details.
Latched pikmin don't attack as many times the higher your opponents percentage. This isn't a stale move effect as much as a common trait for latch, from what I've seen without direct testing. We all know this, or if you don't you now do. What I'm saying is a latched white pikmin, while never a bad thing, is not nearly as good a thing when you opponent is at 200% as it is when they are at 12%. At 12% your opponent will have to respond much more seriously to the pikmin because without any response the pikmin will stay latched for much longer than it will at 200%. I'm not saying I ever expect a white pikmin to do 36 damage on any opponent with a pulse and i'm not comparing 42% to 6% at drastically different percentages, but when rolling around or moving or creating spacing or shielding all the things we do for protection spacing looking for an opening approaching, few of these also offer the ability to remove a latched pikmin. So sure your opponent won't take damage if he has his shield up when the pikmin is about to head butt, but at 12% he won't fall off after trying once or twice the way he will at 200%. So, discussion point one, latch/camp when your opponent is at low percents, pressure when your opponent is at high/KO percents.
Point two, then, reflects your own percents. With the huge boost to DI, this isn't as big of a point, but still valid. Olimar has range, and in general the further the range of a move, the less damage/knock back. So when you are at high percents, avoid getting KOed by pushing a camping style match. Taking wolf's laser at 150% isn't going to make a big change. Trading damage when your at 150 and hes at 20, you throwing pikmin him shooting lasers, is a winning situation for you. Your not impossible to KO at 150%, but it'll be very difficult to KO him at 20%. If you each trade 50%, now your slightly more easy to KO at 200%, still just generally easy, but Hey! Now he is also able to be KOed at 70%. Its not a sure thing like your 200%, but it is MUCH much better than the 20% before. Stock matches are basically the only competative format. You win by surviving. Pressure when you can at low % if its your advantage, but once you start getting higher, survive, and try and hurt him without actually losing your stock. This isn't as great an idea if your both at high percents, but if you can catch him in a camping game when hes at low percent and your at high percent, your controlling the match and putting it at a favorable pace for your current condition.
Knowing your strength and knowing your opponent should play factor to this decision. Without any doubt match ups and meta game will evolve to dictate to some degree the play style. For instance, in an interesting match with DSF online against his snake, he explained to me that in that particular matchup the importance of keeping pressure on snake. Ironically i had subconsciously done this, the second match being much closer due to my increased pressure, despite not knowingly doing it at the time. Until each opponent is completely broken down looking at every angle, which won't truly happen until a complete meta game is developed, this bit is still uncertain.
Still related, the match mentality to begin with. Whether your a no name noob or an acclaimed studied pro, doing what isn't expected will always cause your opponent a moment on their heels. The better the opponent the shorter this advantage may last, but its a start none the less, and is simply another level of mind games. Suddenly your aggressive, then just when your opponent has adjusted and expects/correctly reacts to aggressive play your suddenly defensive. Keeping him changing, confused, and reacting to your current style is the definition of controlling the pace of a match, and ability to do so bodes well for you winning the match. As your opponent gets used to you switching up play styles this tactic becomes less effective, but that is more the result of your opponent improving overall than the tactic being any worse.
Once again though, like my last post, same as being aware of and reacting to your opponent in the idea above, there is a flip side that reflects yourself. Know which style your best at, knowing your strengths is as important as knowing your opponents weaknesses. Sure ideally you play both or all style equally perfectly, but we are human, and you'll find in most everyone theres a somewhat large noticeable difference. So know yourself, it may be whichever is more natural, perhaps not though, you need to know which style you make the least amount of punishable mistakes as well as take best advantage of openings with. Once you know this you can build matches up around this, as stated above switching things up is a good idea, but if you also are considerably better playing pressure/aggressive, why not start that way, and switch to it as often as you can without giving up your control of pace or becoming predictable? Work on any and all styles that are effective, try and get them as even as possible, but certainly know what your best at.
*Note* The original thread by Psyflame can be found here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156765
Just WAC It!
[5000]
All credit to HollaAtchaBoy here. He went in half blind intending to make a mostly uncertain technique at the time usable. In doing so he pioneered an interesting aspect of Olimar play that has not only found its way into most any truly capable Olimar player's repertoire, but I'm sure will only become increasingly useful in the future.
*Note* the original post and following discussion shows the interesting development of this Olimar tech, and can be found here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147749
Olimar Movie Rentals
[6000]
Why not have a section of the best videos around? Unfortunately its seemed we've actually had less new videos since the release of the game than we had prior! Whatever the reason, until we've got some more new videos and I've had time to really go through and look at them all, I'm just copy pasting part of a breakdown of all the old (pre NA release) videos we had. The Top Picks I'm sure are still good to watch for the reasons listed, didn't actually go through the notables but I doubt they are a waste of time yet either. This section despite being new is already in need of an update, but heres a start at least.
NC_Echo vs (most anyone) @ Various: http://www.youtube.com/user/smashecho
This is just a link to Echo's youtube channel. He hasn't given us much of anything in the past couple months unfortunately, however he used to be considered the forefront guy for Olimar play. From this page you can watch a good number of matches, highlighting the history and development progression of Olimar play. Keep an eye on this page, though Echo has gone missing of late, whenever he does sporadically update, its always worthwhile.
DSF vs Gimpy(MK)1 @Battle Field(BF): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47QIkWGPm7c
This is a perfect example of DSF's style of Olimar. Make sure to check the % of MK when he loses his second stock to an USmash. Of note also is his great positioning through this match. It is a hard fought match, though Gimpy had the opportunity to gimp DSF a couple time and did not.
DSF vs Gimpy(MK) 2 and 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nPx9_ys9iI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSePZe3KUnk
These two videos, or really the entire winner finals series between DSF and Gimpy are great to watch, not necessarily just for DSF's Oli, but to understand the struggles P&O are going to face. You can literally see Gimpy find, and progressively exploit the recovery weakness. These two videos in particular are a great example of the struggles Olimar mains are going to have to overcome.
Woker vs Anji(Link): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c3qmrB4DUI0
Again a Old but not bad Olimar showing positioning in the middle of the map. This video is also somewhat unique as neither Echo nor DSF make much use of UpB offensively the way Woker does. Woker however could make better/earlier use of Olimar KO moves to improve performance.
Mr X vs DSF(Snake): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibmr1k2xJHE
Yes one of our pre US release champions turned away from Olimar, the focus of this video is Mr X. Although recent, Mr X has a play style currently very similar to what we saw from NC_Echo and DSF. However, this game is slightly faster paced than the typical videos posted on this board, at times Mr X makes great use of SHFF latch and FAir, throwing out quick FSmashes and Grabs as soon as he lands. Look for this throughout in Mr X's play if you get a chance to watch some of his other videos, he is the most obvious "fast" Olimar using such techniques. Also of note is his punishment of DI early in stock, going for a typical grab first, but rather than FAir you see FSmash-> DashGrab-> DThrow-> FAir and on. There are very few combos in brawl, but there is potential for perhaps some awesome strings due to predicted DI and momentum...
ShrinkRay vs (various): http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163134
This is not a link to any video, but rather Shrink's thread of videos. Most are of good quality, and show marked improvement between each set he adds. The largest collection of newer Olimar videos, they are worth checking out. Although latch heavy, and somewhat more hard nosed or brute force ish than suggested, his latest videos show fairly well the current Olimar meta game, where as all the other videos show a somewhat old school Oli play style.
Advanced Techs
[7000]
Everybody take a deep breath. This isn't any holy grail, your not going to go from scrub to pro overnight by learning what follows here. Honestly I was reluctant to add this section because of the general responses the come from these type sections. However after seeing some other people ideas of techs, and in general the lack of discussion of things I feel important, I eventually decided its worth while. Suggest other techs you feel useful that could be listed here, keeping in mind this is a competative minded thread, I'm biased to functionally useful techs in a real match, not so much potential techs that may kinda work on paper. Lastly I want to mention that these need to be smoothly incorperated into your gameplay, and as I haven't been able to do so completely yet in my own play I'm not positive exactly all the ideas that can come out of these, but they certainly will give you a few more options. So without further ado...
Pivot/Dash Cancel/Stutter Step:
[7001]
I'll be honest, not positive the specific differences between all these techs. (Find their discussions here: http://smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181) However I do know what is of note to Olimar in basics, and I feel its time the community here did too.
What it is: In short what is possible isn't ground breaking, but its a fine tuned control factor and option for Olimar, which by definition is a technique and useful. It is possible to cancel the very start of a dash into a move. What I've found most useful thus far is an FSmash. Its not had to do, simply start a dash in one direction, then almost immediately cstick a smash in either direction. If you did it right, you'll notice you did a quick step or two and then attacked. I'll work on a video soon.
Its Uses: Like mentioned above I see most use in the FSmash. You can move approximately a pikmin's length with this technique, allowing you to either extend the FSmash range a pikmin length or even retreat slightly while FSmashing. This is no wavedash, the movement and attack are not simultaneous, and this isn't a large enough distance to be do anything more than fine tune your spacing. However it may make the difference if you can develop perfect control of this technique. It should not be done for every attack or even every FSmash, but is an option to keep in mind if a spacing game develops of camping just outside of a players range. Also of note is the slight delay in the attack, its a timing mix up which adds an option to that ever present mind game.
Turn Around Grab:
[7002]
I don't actually like the name of this tech, its not really descriptive, but this is what I saw it first listed as, and so the name stays for now. This is definitely something worth learning, its uses are not style defining however they are useful.
What it is: While dashing in a direction press grab and the C-stick in the opposite direction. Done correctly you'll do an instant grab in the opposite direction your dashing while continuing to slide the direction you were dashing. The effect is impressive, your grab range is the shorter running grab range, however because of the slide you are actually capable of grabbing at a distance further than a standing grab from where you stop sliding. I would estimate 135%-150% the grab range of the standing grab where your end up actually, which considering how far Olimar's normal grab is, thats pretty big.
Its Uses: Obviously this is a mostly defensive technique, the extra grab range only works counter to your slide so you can't grab in front of you further than a normal standing grab, nor run forward grab and slide backwards (the second idea i haven't been able to do at least, and never heard of it being done). The notable thing about this is it can be done after any distance of dash, so if your running across Bridge away from some MK, you can try turning around at the start or after crossing the whole level. Of particular note is the immediate execution of this. I had actually found this accidentally on my own while messing around with the above stutter technique, doing it in a more complex way than the typical turnaround grab, it allows for the equivalent of a backwards wavedash grab. So your keeping spacing, giving up a little space, but also very safely attempting an unusual grab. It becomes particularly weird looking when you have a full train of pikmin, olimar and 5 pikmin dashing one direction and one randomly running the other direction attempting a grab. I don't think this should be the standard spacing technique, it surrenders all important map positioning too easily, however its a useful tech to have and add to your arsenal.
Tether Recovery (Lack of) Lag:
[7003]
Fairly simple concept, more of a random fact than a technique, but it seemed to fit here, so here it is. The idea was recently brought up on these boards by Pyr0 & Egruntz at this thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160540
What it is: After successfully grabbing hold of the ledge with a tether recovery (Olimar's UpB) you are able to bring yourself up to the ledge and then act immediately without lag. For instance, jump off the stage, UpB, then press A and then jump as soon as Olimar would be grabbing the ledge coming up the pikmin chain, you'll jump, theres no delay/lag from actually grabbing the ledge.
Its Uses: Unfortunately for the good captain his specific tether recovery does not make much use of this detail of the game. Other characters can make use of their slightly longer lasting invincibility frames to immediately jump/fall->FAir or whatever, but for Olimar his invincibility frames are simply too short. However if you need to get somewhere quickly, or as another option for recovering from the ledge mind games, this is worth knowing.
Grabbed from Ledge:
[7004]
Not really sure where else to put this, but it is useful as pointed out by The NZA so here it is =)
What it is: A number of characters can be grabbed while they are still holding on to the ledge. This is because Olimar's grab sends out a pikmin who runs along the ground, thus the hit box does the same, and is therefore capable of grabbing anyone who is slightly above the ledge while holding on to it. There is also some speculation about being able to grab someone almost instantly as they first grab hold of the ledge, but nothings been followed up and worked on.
Its Uses: You are able to grab Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Pikachu, Game&Watch, Luigi, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Ice Climbers (if both are clinging it will pull off Popo), Ness, Olimar, Jigglypuff, and Lucas this way. (Worked out initially by NC Echo and Projectiled) *Note* you can't actually grab someone during their invincibility frames, this is useful should they be on the ledge longer than those frames.
Dash Buffer IASA:
[7005]
The actual names for these techniques vary, however as they serve a singular purpose I'm grouping them together.
What it is: When stopping or turning from any dash longer than the initial dash animation, Olimar slides, vulnerable and unable to act apart from a dash attack. However, when simply slowing down/stopping rather than turning around, Olimar's forward slide after a certain time is interpretable, and any standing action may be taken. A couple techniques have developed that aid the players ability to act as soon as these frames start. They do not in fact make Olimar stop any earlier, simply give him a buffer zone to input a command that will occur as soon as the frames begin, having been inputed prior to their start. To do this, you can shield cancel your dash, simply press Shield to pull up your shield, and then input a command, with proper timing you can do this without even seeing the shield. The other option is to tap down with the joystick, and then enter a command. This method queues a duck for action, creating a buffer zone for a non dash attack.
Its Uses: Olimar does not have a bad dash attack, however he has many other incredible moves, and this technique allows them to be used a soon as possible after a dash. For instance dashing precisely into range of your FSmash and preforming it quickly out of the dash, when your opponent was prepared for the typical dash options. The incredible range difference in Olimar's grabs also benefits nicely from using this technique. Overall fitting this into your play will make a noticeable speed difference by simplifying a functional timing, allowing for quick dash-> standing attacks.
Potential Techs:
[7006]
So heres stuff that could lead to something, or may/may not be faster, if your bored or interested try messing around with these, see if you can find something substantial or whatever.
Quick Stop: Much like the pluck cancel, there was a couple weeks back discussion in the brawl tactical forum about this. All you do is flick down (crouch) during a dash and then attacking as if standing still. Basically this is so intuitive that I personally am having trouble determining how effective it is. I find myself at times doing it unconsciously, and for some weird reason on my part have had incredible difficulty testing whether or not this is actually a technique. Basically its obviously faster than skidding to a stop and then attacking (something I doubt many people reading this do) but its very hard to test the timing, because attacking too quickly causes a dash attack, which is the same as attacking too quickly trying to slow down from dashing. So try this out, get back to me, I'll try it some next time I play in the next couple days, but I want your guys input too.
Quick Chain: (QC) A quick edge hog for Olimar, simply run off the ledge and immediately UpB in order to grab the ledge. Useful for ledge hogging and whatever other reason you'd need to grab the ledge quickly for. Seemingly easier than Hugging, personally haven't really checked it out yet, need more hours in a day. Makes sense though, any else's thoughts? (Submitted by The NZA)
Character Match-Ups:
[8000]
This is more of a place holder than anything else, just know this is what I'm working on, and I want your guys input both now and once a working first breakdown is posted, this should be a highly debated constantly shifting section.
A Start:
[8001]
Everythings gotta start somewhere, so here it is. I do not think what follows here is correct. Obviously much of my beliefs are theoretical and opinions, I have not had the privilege of playing a massive amount of different opponents/characters/play styles/etc. However this is what is currently in the Matchup thread in the tactical forum, the thread is here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979
Easier Matchups:
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Ike
Jigglypuff
King DeDeDe
Link
Pikachu
Pit
Samus
Snake
Sonic
Toon Link
Wario
Fair Matchups:
Fox
Hard Matchups:
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Metaknight
Rob
Squirtle
Wolf
Yoshi
Unsure Matchups:
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Ivysaur
Lucario
Lucas
Marth
Ness
So, thats where it stands. First, not all opponents have been filled in yet, I'm aware of this, but for standardization am taking directly from the thread. Second, clearly this is largely argued by the largely uninformed scrub ridden tactical boards. Unfortunately to a certain extent the same can be said of here, but here at least we can be sure that it wasn't some guy screaming about the only time he played an olimar once online and how hard he trashed him or was destroyed, most all of you have at least played an olimar more than once, or have an open and mature enough mind to proceed with this logically. So, if its wrong, lets work on it, try and fix it, see what we come up with.
Popular Beliefs:
Heres the section of matchup suggestions made below and general belief across the board. Consider these on the verge of becoming changes to the "official" list we have here, just needing a bit more input/discussion before the change is made.
Its a very common belief that Marth causes trouble for Olimar. He will likely be moved from unsure to hard at the first change to the list unless strong counter arguments/evidence comes forward.
A number of people have voiced trouble with Fox. Not nearly as unanimous as Marth, but up for consideration.
Anyone else had much experience against Zelda? I personally only have played one, and it was online where Din's fire spam truly gave me trouble. Waiting for more discussion one way or another.
Is Mario a struggle for Olimar across the board? Any examples of why?
Personally Expected Corrections: As titled heres my thoughts only, just as another starting ground to be responded to/disagreed with/supported.
I would suggest Falco be placed in the difficult list. This is from a considerable amount of experience, however it has been against a single opponent. A better camper, certainly quick enough, I have found Falco isn't AS difficult a matchup as Wolf and others, due to Falco being less capable of controlling spacing. However given two players of equal (moderate) skill I would consider the favor to be Falco. However, heres where things get interesting, I feel the better the Olimar player, the more able to deal with camping they are, and Falco loses some edge. Alternatively a better Falco is able to use more facets of play as well. So the question is, where do we want to put skill level for these matchup considerations?
Personally I move for the placing of Charizard into the Easy matchup section. Here I have relatively low experience, however that which I do have has left the big guy very vulnerable to aggressive olimar play. Charizard struggles to slow down and control the pace of the game, as well as the spacing, and in the end results to being fairly dominated.
Pikachu and Pit I suspect to be moved from favorable matchup to... anywhere else. I put them together because my reasoning is the same for each. Both are able to out camp olimar, are slightly quicker in general, and there is very little to no chance of gimp/quick kills on either in general circumstances. I have not played enough skilled opponents of either to suggest where they are moved to, I just will be surprised if they are not moved.
Again relatively little experience (unfortunately) on these following characters, but I would be surprised if Olimar had the advantage against Toon Link, Wario, and Snake.
As school wraps up and we get a good agreed upon list of matchups I'll begin adding character specific notes sections. Obviously not having endless experience against every character leaves me lacking in the advice that I can write personally, so as done a few times below offer any tidbits you have on matchups you know well.
Done for now, hopefully give everyone something interesting to read and give feed back on. There is much more to be collected/added. While theres plenty I want to add, feel free to suggest any old info or topics, or even just new topics you'd like to see covered.
*Updates*
4/4 Table of Contents w/ quick finds. Change of Norfair's position on the stage list.
4/7 Advanced Tech section, start of Matchups
4/15 Matchups start/listing, Advanced Techs
5/6 Video Section, Advanced Techniques, More to come
-True
So this is the result of me having too many ideas, theories, suggestions, and not enough time to do it all in any consistent schedule. I've numerous times mentioned making some long post or rant about this or that when I have time, and thats what I intend this thread to be. Today I will not cover everything I want to, and I fully expect I'll have constantly have new ideas or discussions that need posting in the future. To account for this, and to simply in general organize the Olimar boards a bit more, I plan on this thread being regularly updated with new discoveries, theories, rants, and whatever else the Olimar community would find useful. With so much still to learn and develop about Olimar, and all the directions people are headed in right now, I want to provide a type of safe haven for good topics that need work or should be kept reference while other new topics take attention and dominate the top of the forum. However, while attempting to do all this, I do not want to step on NC Echo's guide's turf, people should head there for the solid start to anyone unfamiliar with Olimar. Consider this more of a supplement, further reading for those deeply interested in Olimar and the details of his play. I'm not certain exactly how to keep it structured and organized, but that'll develop naturally if this thread/idea ends up working out. So now that you know what I'm trying to do here, lets get to it...
Table of Contents:
[1000] A Closer Look into Pikmin: Differences in effects due to pikmin color
[1001] Damage
[1002] Range
[1003] Knock Back
[1004] Miscellaneous
[1005] We Are All Special: a summary of pikmin differences offering the best use for each
[2000] The Natural Order of Things: How the whistle orders the pikmin, and what it means
[2001] How it Works
[2002] What does it Mean
[3000] Where To Play: Best, worst, and indifferent stages for Olimar
[4000] To Camp, or Not to Camp: Introductory discussion to factors that should influence situational play style
[5000] Just WAC It: A write up detailing the super armor Olimar gains using whistle
[6000] Olimar Movie Rentals: Somewhat up to date collection/review of the best Olimar videos around
[7000] Advanced Techs: While in theory this entire thread is full of advanced techs and play theory, heres where I'll have the small little miscellaneous tricks worth picking up, and why they are useful.
[7001] Pivot/Dash Cancel/Stutter Step
[7002] Turn Around Grab
[7003] Tether Recovery (Lack of) Lag
[7004] Grabbed from Ledge
[7005] Dash Buffer IASA
[7006] Potential Techs
[8000]Character Match-Ups:
[8001] A Start
A Closer Look into Pikmin Differences
I figured I'd start out with an idea of mine that got a lot of response, and after some time and frustrating yet boring work, I believe you'll be happy with the results.
Damage:
[1001]
This is all taken straight from Echo's guide, but for the discussion here I feel its useful. Things have been just slightly reorganized to focus on Pikmin differences.
Code:
Red Blue Yellow White Purple
FAir 15 13 12 5 14
DAir 16 14 12 8 14
UAir 24 22 16 9 22
BAir 13 13 12 5 13
F-throw 6 13 7 6 7
D-throw 9 12 8 6 8
U-throw 9 12 11 6 11
B-throw 7 14 9 7 9
Throw hit 2 2 2 4 2
FSmash 15 15 13 9 18
DSmash 13 12 11 6 15
USmash 15 15 14 9 16
Latch 2/hit 2/hit 2/hit 6/hit 6
UpB 7 6 6 6 8Summary:
Aerials:
R>B=P>Y>W
Of note here is that Blue are as capable in the air as Purple, somewhat unexpectedly.
Throws:
B>Y=P>R>W
The throws are somewhat variable and confusing, but for a standard trend this is how it looks. See Pikmin specific sections for details about the throw oddities.
Smashes:
P>R=B>Y>W
Purple not surprisingly does the most damage, and modest Blue holds its own compared to Red.
Range:
[1002]
This is newly organized and confirmed data. What is measured here is the distance the hit box travels from Olimar.
Smashes:
FSmash:
R=Y=B=W>P
Pretty standard what you'd expect. I extensively tested this after rumor that yellow may or seems to have more range, but I can assure you all but purple reach just as far.
USmash:
R=Y=B=W>P (Vertical Height)
Y>R>B=W=P (Horizontal distance to Olimar's side)
Again nothing too surprising here, it had been mentioned somewhere that yellow had increased horizontal range, which I found to be correct. Interestingly Red also had some additional horizontal range compared to the rest. In reality though the tiny difference in this horizontal range will not play any role as far as using it to an advantage.
DSmash:
R=Y=B=W=P
The is no difference in how far the hit boxes extend from Olimar among any pikmin color.
Aerials:
All Aerials:
R=Y=B=W=P All Pikmin types have the same size hit boxes on aerial attacks. This was one of the hardest things to test, but I am confident in the results. If by some more precise test you are able to prove this is not true, let me know, but you have the burden of proof, so don't just say it seems like it or you just think so, tell me precisely the test you did to determine this.
Grabs:
Grab Range:
B=W>R=Y>P
This is a comparison of how far away from Olimar specific pikmin are able to grab your opponent. The difference between B W and R Y is not much relative to P, but worth knowing.
Latch:
Distance Thrown
W>R=B>Y>P
This is relative horizontal distance from Olimar, nothing too surprising or earth shaking but tested and confirmed. Of course worth note is the obvious arc yellow follow, giving them the most vertical distance, however they don't travel as far horizontally consequently.
Knock Back:
[1003]
Knowing how much pow each punch packs in general is important, but here we look at the differences wearing different color gloves makes.
Smashes:
FSmash:
R>B>Y>W>P
Purple is not in fact the weakest FSmash, but for whatever reason its knockback is almost entirely vertical, causing them to travel the shortest distance horizontally. This is certainly worth knowing, as it provides an interesting option to start or even continue juggling. The difference between Red and Blue is small, even at increased percents.
USmash:
P>R>B>Y>W
The standard knock back trend is exhibited here. The difference between Red and Blue is small, even at increased percents.
DSmash:
P>R>B>Y>W
The standard knock back trend is exhibited here. The difference between Red and Blue is small, even at increased percents.
Aerials:
All Aerials:
R>P>B>Y>W
The knock back differences between Purple and Blue are very small, only noticeable at higher percentages really, and both of them are close to Red relative to the other differences.
*A Note About DAir* All pikmin colors are actually capable of spiking the opponent. However how strong this spike is varies greatly between color and the percent of the opponent.
Throws:
FThrow:
P>B>R=Y>W
Blue while doing the most damage, does not actually throw the furthest if all the throws were averaged, Purple does.
BThrow:
B>P>Y>R>W
Probably the biggest cause of interest in knowing pikmin order resulted from recognizing a Blue pikmin, Olimar's back to the edge, and this throw. The devastating knock back of this throw is potentially Olimar's most reliable KO move given a blue pikmin. None of the other pikmin come close to Blue's back throw.
UThrow:
P>B>R=Y>W
I first noticed this watching Echo's replays, purple has a very good up throw, not quite a blue BThrow but comparable. In general more useful than the BThrow, a Purple UThrow may kill, but at least will set up for juggling nicely. Theres a pretty big knock back difference range for this throw.
DThrow:
P>R=Y=B>W (Horizontal)
P>R>Y>B>W (Vertical)
The most commonly used throw follows the standard pattern. Of note for combos is also how high the opponent is thrown (disregarding DI of course) as this varies as well between pikmin color.
UpB:
R=Y=B=W=P
Interestingly I found UpB knock back is not so much dependent on color as much as the angle and part of the chain that hits your opponent. Damage is slightly variable on color, which would play the slightest role in knock back since higher % causes more knock back.
*Note about Stage Spiking with UpB* Both Red and Purple are capable of spiking an opponent who is gimping your recovery but not invincible at the time. Much like the DAir spikes however, the spike is more effective the higher the percent your opponent is at.
Miscellaneous:
[1004]
Stuff I didn't really have a place to put, but I felt would work better in a section llike this rather than elsewhere.
Pikmin HP Differences:
P:15 > B:14 > R:9 = Y:9 > W:4
Again borrowed from Echo for relevance reasons, many people are a tad surprised by the HP of blues, but overall just good info, relevant to the pikmin specific arguments to follow.
Elemental Attacks:
Red and Yellow cause elemental attacks, shown by a little fire or electricity and unique sounds. However there is also more to it than this. Attacks landed by these two colors have longer hit lag than the others. To cover my bases, what I mean by hit lag here is that upon contact the actual "hit" pauses movement of the hit box and opponent for some number of frames. For example when you are hit by Samus' charged shot, you are "frozen" for a noticeable time before your hit with knock back. So whats all this mumbo jumbo mean for Olimar? Well its simple, Olimar's hit boxes as we all know are disjointed. What that means is while the Red/Yellow pikmin are paused in this hit lag, Olimar is acting as normal, allowing for him to get through more of the move lag prior to the opponents knock back and hit stun (hit stun is time you can't act because you've just been hit, generally higher at higher %s and stronger knock backs) which effectively allows Olimar to better link moves, because the opponent is stunned/lagged for longer. This is why Red and Yellow seem able to combo better than the others. Particularly yellow, as they in general have shorter knock back that doesn't know the opponent too far away, as well as the increased hit lag. Also, however not confirmed, it would seem the hit lag of Yellow is slightly longer than the hit lag of Red, but it is not certain.
One thing I was not able to test yet was whether certain pikmin have unusual hit stun patterns. I am confident there isn't much of a usable difference yet to be found, or it would have been noticeable and mentioned already. However it is a remaining unknown if any of you have some precise way of measuring it.
Latch Stuff:
Latch does experience diminishing returns, with overuse the damage each pikmin does will decrease. However the number of hits a pikmin does is strictly dependent on the percentage of the opponent, so a diminished Blue latch will still hit a 0% opponent 9 times, but for only 1% each time. Here is the most recent mapping of % = # hits I've seen, credit to TheOJ:
0% - 9-8 hits
25% 8 hits
50% 7-6 hits
75% 6 hits
100% 5 hits
125% 4hits
150% 3.4 hits
175% 3 hits
200+ 2 hits
(anyone willing to confirm this?)
When latching pikmin, they actually travel at different rates. I'm not talking about simple horizontal speed however. Basically Red Blue and Purple pikmin all are landing when the latch lag frames finish, yellow are still in the air, and white, while also having gone the furthest, also actually hit the ground before the lag finishes.
I'm am not certain however (que for someone to test, or eventually I'll get around to it) if all the colors latched to an opponent hit at the exact same rate of hits/second. It seems so, but I've never taken specific time to give it close attention to confirm anything.
Pluck Percents:
Thus far we (Keeper NC_Echo and I) have only obtained substantial evidence for Final Destination and Battlefield. Both stages suggest a set of common percentages for each color as follows:
Red: 23% Yellow: 23% Blue: 23% White: 15% Purple: 15%
However there is strong belief that different stages offer different percentages. For instance a few minutes spent on the Ice Climbers's stage will give strong evidence, as your plucking much nearer to 50% Blues there, however not large scale recorded data has been posted thus far.
We Are All Special:
[1005]
So wheres all this leave us? Hopefully not just lost confused and overwhelmed. This along with the basics mentioned on the Dojo and in Olimar's guide totals to a large amount of information specific to each color pikmin. What follows is my understanding of each color's identity, how to use each color's strengths and avoid their weaknesses.
Red: The fiery pikmin, Red is most at home in the air. Red dominates not only the % damage of all aerials, but also their knock back. Where this becomes a problem is for combos at middle percents, where the increased knock back starts to push opponents too far away, but at least your giving them solid great damage. Red's brute force in the air isn't lost on the ground however, as they boast great numbers in the smash department, particularly the FSmash. An unexpected detail is the Red DThrow, suddenly red breaks the typical damage pattern and jumps up to second. In my mind this begs for a Red DThrow early, which paired with Red's elemental attack can lead perfectly into combos, most commonly followed by a FAir (a combo still referred to as the textbook combo, despite the failure of the entire long original combo suggested.) However these guys are best kept for hitting (hard) rather than grabbing. Also note the resistance to fire attacks, making these guys somewhat favorable against foes such as Charizard and Snake.
Yellow: Their big ears offer them interesting characteristics, including the ability to generate electricity. Unfortunately however the ears also make them less aerodynamic, which causes for less force to actually connect with your opponent. Less force is less damage and knockback, though they try hard to make up for it with their elemental attack. Fortunately for them though more knock back is not always a good thing. In your most successful combos you'll find yellow pikmin are usually the ones responsible for the connected moves, typically initiated and finished however by the other colors. Detailed "true" combos have yet to be developed for Olimar, but don't be surprised if when any come out they require a yellow pikmin or two. If your stuck with a yellow in a non combo situation, of note is their interesting slow latch path. Overall though, when not comboing, yellow generally offers somewhat sub par options. Energy attacks don't hurt these guys, something to note against laser spams and electric rodents.
Blue: At a glance, Blue doesn't seem anything special. Sure they don't drown, but theres only a few water levels anyway, they don't have any elemental attack, they seem just somewhat... standard. As shown above however they don't set standards, they break them. Only in 3 specific places do they finish any lower than tied for second relative to the rest. Consider Blues as your go to clutch players. When you really need someone to do whatever it takes, you won't ever be wrong using a Blue. While a lack of weaknesses is good, playing to strengths is even better. Throwing is their specialty, a Blue BThrow demands respect, and the rest offer enough damage that when grab range is also taken into account they can only be described as devastating. Consider this, a grab, two smacks, and a BThrow from a blue pikmin is equivalent to a FSmash from a purple. On top of this, Blue pikmin end up only 1 HP short of purple pikmin, making it easier to keep them around for cycled use. The numbers don't lie, and while they don't offer an elemental attack to aid comboing, Blue still are far and away the overall best pikmin.
White: The runt of the metaphorical litter, Whites aren't interested in hurting with their hit so much as maliciously poisoning whomever they touch. Unfortunately however, their unique approach requires time to truly sicken an opponent, severely limiting their options. So severely limiting their options that it really leaves only one, Latch. Sure their grab range is only paralleled by blue, but their throws are weak and not consistently useful. It also seems as though they do an elemental attack, however if it is the effects are negligible and the drastically reduced knock back reduces hit stun so much whites can't be used to combo. Also they'll die at the drop of a hat, or many characters jabs, so I'll reiterate, Latch. Whites fly faster, further, and hit three times harder than the rest using Latch. Anything else should only be dire circumstances, such as your unaware that a white is next or you simply need to land a move to gain enough space to pluck new usable pikmin.
Purple: Short and fat, Purple are the bouncers of the pikmin community. Get in their way and you'll feel it, they won't be pushed around easily. Unfortunately, as in nature with size does not come grace, Purple pikmin are severely limited by range in certain situations. What good is hitting hard if they can't actually get to your opponent to hit them? This range limitation puts interesting restraints on efficient Purple use. What I suggest is sticking to Aerials, DSmash, UpB, and the aware knock back Latch with them. A Purple latch is a great tool for disrupting an opponents camp or approach, as well as a potential life saver against a ledge hog gimp. The other moves are all equally ranged independent of pikmin color, allowing Olimar to make full use of Purple's power, without paying any of the consequences. Given a free guaranteed close shot however, USmash and FSmash both have good vertical knockback and damage, which along with UThrow are useful for potential kills or at least great juggling opportunities.
The Natural Order of Things
[2000]
First is a direct quote taken from dmauro, who with help from Yakt-NJ figured out how whistle orders pikmin. Since pikmin specific strategies and uses are the basics of advanced Olimar play, this is obviously pretty important, as the whistle is currently the easies way to manipulate pikmin order. Below the explanation of how it works is a commentary by me on an interesting question raised by the whistle order.
How It Works:
[2001]
What Does It Mean?
[2002]
So we can now have some control over what pikmin is next in line, given the time to whistle. We can even use preparation to better use this tactic, perhaps leaving the whistle at White so should we need to toss a purple at a ledge hogging all it takes is one whistle and having a purple in tow. Obviously this is just one simple example, perhaps you want to have red next for aerials, or blue for grabs, the option is now there for a tad bit of forethought and strategy. This however is not at all related to the interesting point I'd like to offer.
My realization, is that more than any prior super smash brothers move in the series, this move is a direct communication from the developers to the players regarding how a player should play. Considerably over half of Olimar's moves are dependent on Pikmin, which evidenced above means all of those moves have variable results due to pikmin color differences. (Truth is, as pointed out, that this is simply the order they lined up in when whistled in the games ^-^) What Whistle does is give us a natural order of things the way the developers intended things to be done. So rather than attempt to exhaust this topic myself, since I've never seen it before on the boards, I'm going to give a relatively short write up of what I've come up with on this topic, and then look to you all for multiple other perspectives to be discussed and developed.
Red Yellow Blue White Purple. We all know this (or will) instinctively, a rhythm of sorts for Olimar's game. But why this beat? Based solely on the Pikmin identities I offered above, heres my conclusion. Red, good aerials and at low %s usable combo starters due to the elemental attack. Naturally they'd come first. DIed aerials is by no means a new method of approach, and in no way a bad approach option for Olimar. Or if the opening is elsewhere, why not go with the grab or whatever other combo start you can get? Yellow, the combo continuers would naturally fall early in the cycle, below %s are too high to combo, but not first because they are better able to continue than start combos. Blue, the Jack of All Trades in the middle of the pack. Perhaps you just strung together a 2 or 3 hit combo with red and yellow, Blues up next for the last hit of the combo. This isn't SSBM, its no kill combo, but stringing together 3 or 4 moves like that will be a lot of damage. Or perhaps you didn't get it all right and they broke free early, you've still got Blue, good at everything, to get yourself back in control, maybe a grab to throw off the stage and try for a middle % ledge guard? With the great knock back and damage of blue, its not hard to get your opponent off the stage recovering. Olimar isn't the best to go chasing over botomless pits with, but with White up next you can still cause trouble. A good throw sticks a white onto your opponent trying to recover. This means your opponent will usually either have to swat it away, potentially opening up a window to punish their recovery, or take a few costly hits from white while focusing on recovery. White being able to fly so far so fast, its funny how well this idea fits. Next we come to purple. At this point, if things have gone anything like i've mentioned up to this point, your opponent is hurting. Not 150% or anything crazy, but certainly feeling it and at the edge of KOable %s. So why not bring up the biggest bruiser, overcome his range struggles and send your opponent flying fast and hard. Should the KO still not come never fear, Red is back up and they are no weaklings either.
Now I realize how incredibly theory craft that last paragraph is, please no one take it for practicable truth of how Olimar should be played. Many times you won't find yourself with all 5 types of pikmin, and adjustments will have to be made. However I do think that its a certainly usable and interesting idea making use of the natural order. Like I said I don't believe the order is random, and I'd be interested to see just how well this suggested overview built from the basic details actually plays out. What are your ideas and thoughts?
Where To Play
[3000]
So until an actual official stage list of neutrals, counter picks, and bans, this section is obviously subject to change. Not to mention I find it highly unlikely even my suggestions here are without fault, meaning this for a while still will be more of a fluid/discussion section, with changes and notes as points are made etc... I do believe this to be a strong start though, a solid list to work from.
Great Stages:
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Corneria
Shadow Moses Island
Norfair *Moved due to popular demand, Not positive i'm convinced yet ; ) *
Pokemon Stadium 1
Luigi's Mansion
Middle Stages:
Green Hill Zone
Pirate Ship
Bridge of Eldin
Battleship Halberd
Castle Seige
Frigate Orpheon
Mario Circut
Electroplankton
Pokemon Stadium 2
Green Greens
Distant Planet
Worst Stages:
Delfino Plaza
Brinstar
Rainbow Cruise
Pictochat
*Note* For detailed reasoning behind some of these picks, as well as other peoples thoughts/discussion, please check out the original topic here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=154907
To Camp, or Not To Camp, that is the question...
[4000]
This next section is truly disorganized at the moment, but wanted to put it here. This is exactly what I meant about a great thread that simply got lost in the shuffle unfortunately. This should be a primary discussion point, people breaking down the advantages or disadvantages of each, specific matchups... tons of potential here. What is below is a couple combined posts of mine breaking down a few of the primary ideas. I would love peoples input/insight/discussion on this topic as I mentioned I believe theres a lot of value in this topic and working out its details.
Latched pikmin don't attack as many times the higher your opponents percentage. This isn't a stale move effect as much as a common trait for latch, from what I've seen without direct testing. We all know this, or if you don't you now do. What I'm saying is a latched white pikmin, while never a bad thing, is not nearly as good a thing when you opponent is at 200% as it is when they are at 12%. At 12% your opponent will have to respond much more seriously to the pikmin because without any response the pikmin will stay latched for much longer than it will at 200%. I'm not saying I ever expect a white pikmin to do 36 damage on any opponent with a pulse and i'm not comparing 42% to 6% at drastically different percentages, but when rolling around or moving or creating spacing or shielding all the things we do for protection spacing looking for an opening approaching, few of these also offer the ability to remove a latched pikmin. So sure your opponent won't take damage if he has his shield up when the pikmin is about to head butt, but at 12% he won't fall off after trying once or twice the way he will at 200%. So, discussion point one, latch/camp when your opponent is at low percents, pressure when your opponent is at high/KO percents.
Point two, then, reflects your own percents. With the huge boost to DI, this isn't as big of a point, but still valid. Olimar has range, and in general the further the range of a move, the less damage/knock back. So when you are at high percents, avoid getting KOed by pushing a camping style match. Taking wolf's laser at 150% isn't going to make a big change. Trading damage when your at 150 and hes at 20, you throwing pikmin him shooting lasers, is a winning situation for you. Your not impossible to KO at 150%, but it'll be very difficult to KO him at 20%. If you each trade 50%, now your slightly more easy to KO at 200%, still just generally easy, but Hey! Now he is also able to be KOed at 70%. Its not a sure thing like your 200%, but it is MUCH much better than the 20% before. Stock matches are basically the only competative format. You win by surviving. Pressure when you can at low % if its your advantage, but once you start getting higher, survive, and try and hurt him without actually losing your stock. This isn't as great an idea if your both at high percents, but if you can catch him in a camping game when hes at low percent and your at high percent, your controlling the match and putting it at a favorable pace for your current condition.
Knowing your strength and knowing your opponent should play factor to this decision. Without any doubt match ups and meta game will evolve to dictate to some degree the play style. For instance, in an interesting match with DSF online against his snake, he explained to me that in that particular matchup the importance of keeping pressure on snake. Ironically i had subconsciously done this, the second match being much closer due to my increased pressure, despite not knowingly doing it at the time. Until each opponent is completely broken down looking at every angle, which won't truly happen until a complete meta game is developed, this bit is still uncertain.
Still related, the match mentality to begin with. Whether your a no name noob or an acclaimed studied pro, doing what isn't expected will always cause your opponent a moment on their heels. The better the opponent the shorter this advantage may last, but its a start none the less, and is simply another level of mind games. Suddenly your aggressive, then just when your opponent has adjusted and expects/correctly reacts to aggressive play your suddenly defensive. Keeping him changing, confused, and reacting to your current style is the definition of controlling the pace of a match, and ability to do so bodes well for you winning the match. As your opponent gets used to you switching up play styles this tactic becomes less effective, but that is more the result of your opponent improving overall than the tactic being any worse.
Once again though, like my last post, same as being aware of and reacting to your opponent in the idea above, there is a flip side that reflects yourself. Know which style your best at, knowing your strengths is as important as knowing your opponents weaknesses. Sure ideally you play both or all style equally perfectly, but we are human, and you'll find in most everyone theres a somewhat large noticeable difference. So know yourself, it may be whichever is more natural, perhaps not though, you need to know which style you make the least amount of punishable mistakes as well as take best advantage of openings with. Once you know this you can build matches up around this, as stated above switching things up is a good idea, but if you also are considerably better playing pressure/aggressive, why not start that way, and switch to it as often as you can without giving up your control of pace or becoming predictable? Work on any and all styles that are effective, try and get them as even as possible, but certainly know what your best at.
*Note* The original thread by Psyflame can be found here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=156765
Just WAC It!
[5000]
All credit to HollaAtchaBoy here. He went in half blind intending to make a mostly uncertain technique at the time usable. In doing so he pioneered an interesting aspect of Olimar play that has not only found its way into most any truly capable Olimar player's repertoire, but I'm sure will only become increasingly useful in the future.
Well, originally I was asking for evidence, but now I'm turning this into a compendium of Whistle knowledge. Toot-Toot.
What We Know:
Olimar's Down+B, the Whistle, has Super Armor frames. If you don't know what Super Armor is, it's similar to Yoshi's second jump, Dedede's Up+B, Snake's Up+B and perhaps more famously Ike's Neutral B and Up+B. When a character does a move with Super Armor frames, they take damage but do not flinch, meaning they suffer no knockback. Though specific frame-data isn't available, we can say that it starts with the very first frame, meaning that Whistling the precise frame that an attack hits will Whistle Cancel it.
An example:
As with all Super Armor moves, let me reiterate that Super Armor does not Cancel grabs.
The window of time when the Whistle's Super Armor is out is not exact, but I have successfully timed a Whistle at the beginning of Sonic's Fair and canceled the entirety of it. Of course, this still only covers roughly the first third or maybe half of the entire Whistle maneuver, but it is still quite substantial. Because of the wide frame window, Whistle Armor is a very viable way to counter being juggled, smashed or edgeguarded.
There is a difference between Whistling in the air and on the ground. The Whistle in the air has a shorter duration, which means there is a bit more lag when Whistling on the ground. In the air, the Whistle can be used as an alternative to air-dodging. It is better than air-dodging in that it has a shorter duration, meaning a follow-up aerial can be done much faster than if you were to try after air-dodging. Also, the Whistle does not have as much momentum shift as an air-dodge, and one does not stray as far from their target as they do when air-dodging.
Another important note regarding the air Whistle Armor Cancel is that the Whistle has zero landing lag, meaning that short-hopping or landing into a Canceled Uptilt, for instance, can instantly be punished with a grab, Smash, tilt, jab, or dash attack. One proper technique that I personally haven't gotten a hold of is short hopping into an attack, Whistle Armor Canceling it, and following up. Though, this is very possible.
On the ground more research needs to be done. It is clearly an alternative lag wise to Olimar's spot-dodge, but it remains to be seen if it is any easier or beneficial than a perfect shield. Regardless of the skill required to do it and the amount of lag afterwards, I would still contest that a perfect shield on the ground is better than a Whistle Armor Cancel simply because you don't take the damage. And judging by the kind of attacks one will want Whistle Armor Canceled the most often (aka high damage and high knockback attacks), if you're stable on the ground you'd probably be better off perfect shielding and not taking an extra 10-20% damage just to get in a smash attack or grab.
A few move specific mentions, the Whistle can cancel projectiles like Falco's lasers and Pit's arrows, and I believe I canceled Stitchface at one point, but this was not recorded. I have NOT tried to Whistle Cancel Fox's Shine, but I have successfully Canceled Falco's Shine numerous times.
A final note: the Whistle Cancel may seem very complicated, but given that I don't have the game and have easily played less than a 100 matches in it before making this post, it should be obvious that it is deceptively easy to pull off. Whether it turns into an advanced tactic that's a staple of advanced Olimar play is yet to be seen.
For now all I know is that it's straight up fun.
Vids!
First video evidence at 1:45 (Thanks True): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GI9brPsnD0
A test video (Thanks Wararchon): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgJUsofOe-I
And my vids of my practice against other players:
Yamete (Olimar) vs. BlueTerrorist (Sonic) #1: WAC at 2:33:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=XabN-leo7UI
Yamete (Olimar) vs BlueTerrorist (Sonic) #2: WAC'd Sonic's fair at 1:14:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xE9g94TBikI
Yamete (Olimar) vs Pitfall (Falco): WAC'ing Falco's Laser from 1:11 to 1:24:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=CbI04auLwVg
Yamete (Olimar) vs Pitfall (Pit): WAC'ing Pit's Arrow at 3:15:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oM-mh7ZW1PY
And now matches where the amount of WACs I pull off are too many to count:
GTFO Josh (DK) vs Yamete (Olimar): My Whistle Armor exhibition #1:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=U_D5S1j-EJQ
Nuke (DK) vs Yamete (Olimar): My Whistle Armor exhibition #2:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=SjpJxEshwL0
*Note* the original post and following discussion shows the interesting development of this Olimar tech, and can be found here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=147749
Olimar Movie Rentals
[6000]
Why not have a section of the best videos around? Unfortunately its seemed we've actually had less new videos since the release of the game than we had prior! Whatever the reason, until we've got some more new videos and I've had time to really go through and look at them all, I'm just copy pasting part of a breakdown of all the old (pre NA release) videos we had. The Top Picks I'm sure are still good to watch for the reasons listed, didn't actually go through the notables but I doubt they are a waste of time yet either. This section despite being new is already in need of an update, but heres a start at least.
NC_Echo vs (most anyone) @ Various: http://www.youtube.com/user/smashecho
This is just a link to Echo's youtube channel. He hasn't given us much of anything in the past couple months unfortunately, however he used to be considered the forefront guy for Olimar play. From this page you can watch a good number of matches, highlighting the history and development progression of Olimar play. Keep an eye on this page, though Echo has gone missing of late, whenever he does sporadically update, its always worthwhile.
DSF vs Gimpy(MK)1 @Battle Field(BF): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47QIkWGPm7c
This is a perfect example of DSF's style of Olimar. Make sure to check the % of MK when he loses his second stock to an USmash. Of note also is his great positioning through this match. It is a hard fought match, though Gimpy had the opportunity to gimp DSF a couple time and did not.
DSF vs Gimpy(MK) 2 and 4: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nPx9_ys9iI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSePZe3KUnk
These two videos, or really the entire winner finals series between DSF and Gimpy are great to watch, not necessarily just for DSF's Oli, but to understand the struggles P&O are going to face. You can literally see Gimpy find, and progressively exploit the recovery weakness. These two videos in particular are a great example of the struggles Olimar mains are going to have to overcome.
Woker vs Anji(Link): http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=c3qmrB4DUI0
Again a Old but not bad Olimar showing positioning in the middle of the map. This video is also somewhat unique as neither Echo nor DSF make much use of UpB offensively the way Woker does. Woker however could make better/earlier use of Olimar KO moves to improve performance.
Mr X vs DSF(Snake): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibmr1k2xJHE
Yes one of our pre US release champions turned away from Olimar, the focus of this video is Mr X. Although recent, Mr X has a play style currently very similar to what we saw from NC_Echo and DSF. However, this game is slightly faster paced than the typical videos posted on this board, at times Mr X makes great use of SHFF latch and FAir, throwing out quick FSmashes and Grabs as soon as he lands. Look for this throughout in Mr X's play if you get a chance to watch some of his other videos, he is the most obvious "fast" Olimar using such techniques. Also of note is his punishment of DI early in stock, going for a typical grab first, but rather than FAir you see FSmash-> DashGrab-> DThrow-> FAir and on. There are very few combos in brawl, but there is potential for perhaps some awesome strings due to predicted DI and momentum...
ShrinkRay vs (various): http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=163134
This is not a link to any video, but rather Shrink's thread of videos. Most are of good quality, and show marked improvement between each set he adds. The largest collection of newer Olimar videos, they are worth checking out. Although latch heavy, and somewhat more hard nosed or brute force ish than suggested, his latest videos show fairly well the current Olimar meta game, where as all the other videos show a somewhat old school Oli play style.
Advanced Techs
[7000]
Everybody take a deep breath. This isn't any holy grail, your not going to go from scrub to pro overnight by learning what follows here. Honestly I was reluctant to add this section because of the general responses the come from these type sections. However after seeing some other people ideas of techs, and in general the lack of discussion of things I feel important, I eventually decided its worth while. Suggest other techs you feel useful that could be listed here, keeping in mind this is a competative minded thread, I'm biased to functionally useful techs in a real match, not so much potential techs that may kinda work on paper. Lastly I want to mention that these need to be smoothly incorperated into your gameplay, and as I haven't been able to do so completely yet in my own play I'm not positive exactly all the ideas that can come out of these, but they certainly will give you a few more options. So without further ado...
Pivot/Dash Cancel/Stutter Step:
[7001]
I'll be honest, not positive the specific differences between all these techs. (Find their discussions here: http://smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=181) However I do know what is of note to Olimar in basics, and I feel its time the community here did too.
What it is: In short what is possible isn't ground breaking, but its a fine tuned control factor and option for Olimar, which by definition is a technique and useful. It is possible to cancel the very start of a dash into a move. What I've found most useful thus far is an FSmash. Its not had to do, simply start a dash in one direction, then almost immediately cstick a smash in either direction. If you did it right, you'll notice you did a quick step or two and then attacked. I'll work on a video soon.
Its Uses: Like mentioned above I see most use in the FSmash. You can move approximately a pikmin's length with this technique, allowing you to either extend the FSmash range a pikmin length or even retreat slightly while FSmashing. This is no wavedash, the movement and attack are not simultaneous, and this isn't a large enough distance to be do anything more than fine tune your spacing. However it may make the difference if you can develop perfect control of this technique. It should not be done for every attack or even every FSmash, but is an option to keep in mind if a spacing game develops of camping just outside of a players range. Also of note is the slight delay in the attack, its a timing mix up which adds an option to that ever present mind game.
Turn Around Grab:
[7002]
I don't actually like the name of this tech, its not really descriptive, but this is what I saw it first listed as, and so the name stays for now. This is definitely something worth learning, its uses are not style defining however they are useful.
What it is: While dashing in a direction press grab and the C-stick in the opposite direction. Done correctly you'll do an instant grab in the opposite direction your dashing while continuing to slide the direction you were dashing. The effect is impressive, your grab range is the shorter running grab range, however because of the slide you are actually capable of grabbing at a distance further than a standing grab from where you stop sliding. I would estimate 135%-150% the grab range of the standing grab where your end up actually, which considering how far Olimar's normal grab is, thats pretty big.
Its Uses: Obviously this is a mostly defensive technique, the extra grab range only works counter to your slide so you can't grab in front of you further than a normal standing grab, nor run forward grab and slide backwards (the second idea i haven't been able to do at least, and never heard of it being done). The notable thing about this is it can be done after any distance of dash, so if your running across Bridge away from some MK, you can try turning around at the start or after crossing the whole level. Of particular note is the immediate execution of this. I had actually found this accidentally on my own while messing around with the above stutter technique, doing it in a more complex way than the typical turnaround grab, it allows for the equivalent of a backwards wavedash grab. So your keeping spacing, giving up a little space, but also very safely attempting an unusual grab. It becomes particularly weird looking when you have a full train of pikmin, olimar and 5 pikmin dashing one direction and one randomly running the other direction attempting a grab. I don't think this should be the standard spacing technique, it surrenders all important map positioning too easily, however its a useful tech to have and add to your arsenal.
Tether Recovery (Lack of) Lag:
[7003]
Fairly simple concept, more of a random fact than a technique, but it seemed to fit here, so here it is. The idea was recently brought up on these boards by Pyr0 & Egruntz at this thread: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160540
What it is: After successfully grabbing hold of the ledge with a tether recovery (Olimar's UpB) you are able to bring yourself up to the ledge and then act immediately without lag. For instance, jump off the stage, UpB, then press A and then jump as soon as Olimar would be grabbing the ledge coming up the pikmin chain, you'll jump, theres no delay/lag from actually grabbing the ledge.
Its Uses: Unfortunately for the good captain his specific tether recovery does not make much use of this detail of the game. Other characters can make use of their slightly longer lasting invincibility frames to immediately jump/fall->FAir or whatever, but for Olimar his invincibility frames are simply too short. However if you need to get somewhere quickly, or as another option for recovering from the ledge mind games, this is worth knowing.
Grabbed from Ledge:
[7004]
Not really sure where else to put this, but it is useful as pointed out by The NZA so here it is =)
What it is: A number of characters can be grabbed while they are still holding on to the ledge. This is because Olimar's grab sends out a pikmin who runs along the ground, thus the hit box does the same, and is therefore capable of grabbing anyone who is slightly above the ledge while holding on to it. There is also some speculation about being able to grab someone almost instantly as they first grab hold of the ledge, but nothings been followed up and worked on.
Its Uses: You are able to grab Mario, Donkey Kong, Kirby, Pikachu, Game&Watch, Luigi, Meta Knight, Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, Ice Climbers (if both are clinging it will pull off Popo), Ness, Olimar, Jigglypuff, and Lucas this way. (Worked out initially by NC Echo and Projectiled) *Note* you can't actually grab someone during their invincibility frames, this is useful should they be on the ledge longer than those frames.
Dash Buffer IASA:
[7005]
The actual names for these techniques vary, however as they serve a singular purpose I'm grouping them together.
What it is: When stopping or turning from any dash longer than the initial dash animation, Olimar slides, vulnerable and unable to act apart from a dash attack. However, when simply slowing down/stopping rather than turning around, Olimar's forward slide after a certain time is interpretable, and any standing action may be taken. A couple techniques have developed that aid the players ability to act as soon as these frames start. They do not in fact make Olimar stop any earlier, simply give him a buffer zone to input a command that will occur as soon as the frames begin, having been inputed prior to their start. To do this, you can shield cancel your dash, simply press Shield to pull up your shield, and then input a command, with proper timing you can do this without even seeing the shield. The other option is to tap down with the joystick, and then enter a command. This method queues a duck for action, creating a buffer zone for a non dash attack.
Its Uses: Olimar does not have a bad dash attack, however he has many other incredible moves, and this technique allows them to be used a soon as possible after a dash. For instance dashing precisely into range of your FSmash and preforming it quickly out of the dash, when your opponent was prepared for the typical dash options. The incredible range difference in Olimar's grabs also benefits nicely from using this technique. Overall fitting this into your play will make a noticeable speed difference by simplifying a functional timing, allowing for quick dash-> standing attacks.
Potential Techs:
[7006]
So heres stuff that could lead to something, or may/may not be faster, if your bored or interested try messing around with these, see if you can find something substantial or whatever.
Quick Stop: Much like the pluck cancel, there was a couple weeks back discussion in the brawl tactical forum about this. All you do is flick down (crouch) during a dash and then attacking as if standing still. Basically this is so intuitive that I personally am having trouble determining how effective it is. I find myself at times doing it unconsciously, and for some weird reason on my part have had incredible difficulty testing whether or not this is actually a technique. Basically its obviously faster than skidding to a stop and then attacking (something I doubt many people reading this do) but its very hard to test the timing, because attacking too quickly causes a dash attack, which is the same as attacking too quickly trying to slow down from dashing. So try this out, get back to me, I'll try it some next time I play in the next couple days, but I want your guys input too.
Quick Chain: (QC) A quick edge hog for Olimar, simply run off the ledge and immediately UpB in order to grab the ledge. Useful for ledge hogging and whatever other reason you'd need to grab the ledge quickly for. Seemingly easier than Hugging, personally haven't really checked it out yet, need more hours in a day. Makes sense though, any else's thoughts? (Submitted by The NZA)
Character Match-Ups:
[8000]
This is more of a place holder than anything else, just know this is what I'm working on, and I want your guys input both now and once a working first breakdown is posted, this should be a highly debated constantly shifting section.
A Start:
[8001]
Everythings gotta start somewhere, so here it is. I do not think what follows here is correct. Obviously much of my beliefs are theoretical and opinions, I have not had the privilege of playing a massive amount of different opponents/characters/play styles/etc. However this is what is currently in the Matchup thread in the tactical forum, the thread is here:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=157979
Easier Matchups:
Bowser
Donkey Kong
Game & Watch
Ganondorf
Ike
Jigglypuff
King DeDeDe
Link
Pikachu
Pit
Samus
Snake
Sonic
Toon Link
Wario
Fair Matchups:
Fox
Hard Matchups:
Ice Climbers
Kirby
Metaknight
Rob
Squirtle
Wolf
Yoshi
Unsure Matchups:
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Ivysaur
Lucario
Lucas
Marth
Ness
So, thats where it stands. First, not all opponents have been filled in yet, I'm aware of this, but for standardization am taking directly from the thread. Second, clearly this is largely argued by the largely uninformed scrub ridden tactical boards. Unfortunately to a certain extent the same can be said of here, but here at least we can be sure that it wasn't some guy screaming about the only time he played an olimar once online and how hard he trashed him or was destroyed, most all of you have at least played an olimar more than once, or have an open and mature enough mind to proceed with this logically. So, if its wrong, lets work on it, try and fix it, see what we come up with.
Popular Beliefs:
Heres the section of matchup suggestions made below and general belief across the board. Consider these on the verge of becoming changes to the "official" list we have here, just needing a bit more input/discussion before the change is made.
Its a very common belief that Marth causes trouble for Olimar. He will likely be moved from unsure to hard at the first change to the list unless strong counter arguments/evidence comes forward.
A number of people have voiced trouble with Fox. Not nearly as unanimous as Marth, but up for consideration.
Anyone else had much experience against Zelda? I personally only have played one, and it was online where Din's fire spam truly gave me trouble. Waiting for more discussion one way or another.
Is Mario a struggle for Olimar across the board? Any examples of why?
Personally Expected Corrections: As titled heres my thoughts only, just as another starting ground to be responded to/disagreed with/supported.
I would suggest Falco be placed in the difficult list. This is from a considerable amount of experience, however it has been against a single opponent. A better camper, certainly quick enough, I have found Falco isn't AS difficult a matchup as Wolf and others, due to Falco being less capable of controlling spacing. However given two players of equal (moderate) skill I would consider the favor to be Falco. However, heres where things get interesting, I feel the better the Olimar player, the more able to deal with camping they are, and Falco loses some edge. Alternatively a better Falco is able to use more facets of play as well. So the question is, where do we want to put skill level for these matchup considerations?
Personally I move for the placing of Charizard into the Easy matchup section. Here I have relatively low experience, however that which I do have has left the big guy very vulnerable to aggressive olimar play. Charizard struggles to slow down and control the pace of the game, as well as the spacing, and in the end results to being fairly dominated.
Pikachu and Pit I suspect to be moved from favorable matchup to... anywhere else. I put them together because my reasoning is the same for each. Both are able to out camp olimar, are slightly quicker in general, and there is very little to no chance of gimp/quick kills on either in general circumstances. I have not played enough skilled opponents of either to suggest where they are moved to, I just will be surprised if they are not moved.
Again relatively little experience (unfortunately) on these following characters, but I would be surprised if Olimar had the advantage against Toon Link, Wario, and Snake.
As school wraps up and we get a good agreed upon list of matchups I'll begin adding character specific notes sections. Obviously not having endless experience against every character leaves me lacking in the advice that I can write personally, so as done a few times below offer any tidbits you have on matchups you know well.
Done for now, hopefully give everyone something interesting to read and give feed back on. There is much more to be collected/added. While theres plenty I want to add, feel free to suggest any old info or topics, or even just new topics you'd like to see covered.
*Updates*
4/4 Table of Contents w/ quick finds. Change of Norfair's position on the stage list.
4/7 Advanced Tech section, start of Matchups
4/15 Matchups start/listing, Advanced Techs
5/6 Video Section, Advanced Techniques, More to come
-True
