Alternate stage list discussion

[Battlecow]

So I'm probably going to attempt to run a tournament this summer, and it goes without saying that hyrule will be banned--if for no other reason than that a sizable proportion of high-level competitors want that and so far we don't have so much as a single tournament testing out alternate rulesets and seeing how they work.

What, then, should the stage list consist of? Basically I'm trying to work out a rough idea of what the community consensus is on what a non-hyrule stagelist should look like. I know that the artist formerly known as cheeseball put together a pretty solid no-hyrule option recently (Where the eff is that, by the way? Put it in the index or something), but I'm not really looking to run that verbatim (really its only claim to legitimacy is that AA put it together and that he's the guy who was in the "backroom" and who cared enough to do it; awesome as AA is, his idea doesn't formally incorporate any authority other than that of his [admittedly very learned] opinion).

Some ideas:

Personally, I think that Peach's castle is also an incredibly jank stage; while it lacks the stall-factor that makes hyrule utterly game-breaking, every time someone gets a bumper or side-thingy save I die a little inside. combine that with super-unorthodox ledge stuff and the fact that no one seems to like it and we have something that might also be banworthy. Are we only keeping it because we need more stages? Given that it never gets played except as a tool with which assholes like me beat on better players who lack stage experience, is this kind of "diversity" really necessary?

Congo has barrel shenanigans, nonstandard ledge issues, and weird platform logistics that decentralize gameplay in a way that I consider negative for the metagame. I'm a proponent of the japanese dl-only thing; honestly, even tacna is on to something with the "single stage that a centralized, skill-based, and coherent metagame can evolve around" thing.That said, I know enough about y'all to know that I'm in the minority here; congo is by far the best non-DL stage, and I think we can assume that it'll be around for the near future.

With two or even three stages, bans aren't really practical; we're looking at a good old-fashioned counterpick ad-infinitum war. Where, then, should the first match be played? I'm against coin-flips just since that could and almost certainly will lead to some sets being decided solely by luck. No one wants to go to losers just because Abe Lincoln decided to show his ugly-ass face. This leaves us with choosing a starter stage; I don't think having DL as the SS is controversial at all; nova's had a lot of success with that in his (dope) tournament.

Discuss. Argue. Etc.

 

[Han Solo]

Pikachu is more game-breaking than Hyrule.

 

[Olikus]

Pika on DL aint fun. Congo and peach are good stages. If i remember correctly aa's none hyrule ruleset was pretty good.

 

[Timotheus]

Dreamland is the most balanced stage for almost the whole cast imo. Low tiers have a better chance to gimp higher tiers. Other than that Hyrule seems better for high Tier (fast movement) characters what makes DL even better. The Barrel and the moving platforms make congo too random imo.

I'm for DL only

EDIT: i'm not sure but i think it could also change peoples minds to pick more characters than just Fox and Falcon. It would be a more mixed up game like in the japanese community what would be pretty cool. Just look at tacna's (hyrule only) community. almost everyone plays Fox, falcon and pikachu

 

[Kimimaru]

I really like Congo Jungle. It's a pretty balanced stage overall, but it does have a few annoyances including the barrel and the ground that you can jump through. The former balances out in that it gives your opponent a chance to capitalize, but the latter just improves characters who have good recoveries even more. The placement of the platforms allows for creative combos and helps test your positioning skills. The platforms in the middle also move the same way the entire time, so they're not random like the barrel's rotation.

It's definitely one of the top 3 stages in the game in terms of balance.

I think Peach's Castle is a really bad stage for several reasons. One is the bumper/side brick things which save people and allow for some pretty weird gimps, like U-smashing someone against the bottom of the brick thing. Not to mention, all you need to do to kill Link in that stage is throw him off the edge of the bottom moving platform while it's moving inwards and he's dead. You can argue that he dies from a grab off the edge in every stage, but at least he has a chance of making it back at 0% in other stages if you mess up your edgeguarding.

So now onto what I think is the worst part of Peach's Castle; the bottom moving platform! It allows for really lame tactics, like spamming jab against the tiny wall until the platform goes to the other side and Pikachu or whichever character hits the opponent offstage for free and can make it back safely. It's also binary in that it either helps or messes up a recovery and is never neutral. There are also no grabbable edges whatsoever in that stage.

I think a good non-Hyrule stagelist would consist of Congo Jungle and Dreamland. If you want a third stage then you'll have to find the one you like best out of the remaining ones.

 

[Tom Bombadil]

I think if the background of Congo wasn't so damn dark less people would hate the stage




half serious

Also, I've never understood why Peach's was legal

 

[Yobolight]

Zebes is legit.

Peaches Castle is whack.

 

[Battlecow]

Pikachu is more game-breaking than Hyrule.

Good god.

 

[Kimimaru]

I would like Zebes more if it was a little smaller so all the platforms weren't so far away. The lava is also annoying because it's really strong.

I honestly don't have a problem with the background of Congo. I've never played against a Samus with the black costume on that stage before though so I can't say for sure if I'll be able to see her well, especially if she's curled up. I always pay attention to my opponent anyway so it shouldn't be too hard to follow her movements.

 

[t3h Icy]

Peach's Castle has quite a few problems as mentioned above, and really enhances gimping. The lack of edge is really a big factor for recovering with a move that has a lot of end lag, such as Link's Up-B, it means no invincibility ever outside of respawning, and greatly affects edgeguarding. On most stages, a character can grab the edge and be lower than most attacks of their opponents, but when forced to land on the stage on Peach's, any move can be used for edgeguarding. A simple example is Samus's Charge Shot, which can't normally be used if a recovering opponent is aiming for the edge from below. It really changes the recovery/edgeguarding dynamic, which leads to more gimps, and the bottom platform moving away from the side occasionally only makes it stronger. The bottom platform not only extends how far a player can be knocked off and then pulled away, it can also affect how high a character must recover vertically. The height difference between the bottom platform and the bottom centre isn't too large, but it's a significant amount when making it is life or death.Even if it were a balanced stage among the characters, it changes the game fairly heavily, but I'd argue it stretches out match-ups further from even. Link is abysmal on that stage compared to others.

The bumper is also interesting, moving around on its own. I'm almost certain it's not random, but with no in-game timer on display, its location is functionally random unless a player has an excellent track of time or can constantly keep an eye on its location. This can be compared to Randall the cloud in YS in Melee, and even with a timer off, Pak E Derm hints at where it is. Peach's has no such thing I believe (the bottom platform maybe?). It makes the stage more janky. The ramps are also a problem for various reasons; one of the things I hate most with them is when a character is rolling down them and have blips of invincibility, which affects combos as that character gets out of hitstun.

Balanced? Maybe, most likely not though. I feel that Pikachu and Kirby dominate on the stage, and to a lesser extent, Falcon. Not too sure how it affects mid/low vs mid/low character match-ups compared to Dreamland.

Hyrule is simply too big and there's nothing forcing a player to approach unfortunately with no timer. This match is a perfect example. Nearly 14 minutes is far, FAR too long for a single match; even Brawl tournament sets go faster. Of course, neither player was choosing to approach, but there's no reason they should, and it's a higher risk to do so than it is to wait out an absolutely safe moment. Isai got 4-stocked twice by Gerson there, and Gerson may or may not have kept up with Isai had he not played campy. I can't imagine how long a match would take with players that have infinite patience and worse, the inability to kill and combo off each hit they do manage to get.

By all means though, defensive play and camping shouldn't be discouraged since it's a valid way to play games, but Hyrule makes it too strong. Fox and other projectile characters can also abuse the stage more than others, but on the other hand, the other player can simply just wait and hide on the sides. The only reason a player would feel the need to leave is if the Tornado spawns where they are. Still though, even the top platform and the top of the tent can be used and the Tornado doesn't spawn there. Here's a great example, where Jigglypuff is camping Fox, lol. Maybe Superboom could have done that match better in some way, but it's still silly. The Tornado itself is also really janky, and one of the few random things in the game, both where it spawns and if it's fast or normal. It has the potential to affect whole games.

I think an interesting idea would be envisioning a stage 3x the size of Hyrule horizontally with a 3x higher ceiling. Clearly, that would be far too big, so the question is how big is too big? I think Hyrule breaks that limit. Sector Z is a really silly stage for the same reason (and more).

I definitely agree that the best non-DL stage is Congo, but it has its oddities too. The hollow floor helps characters with already good recoveries, who are unfortunately Pikachu and Kirby. Mario and Luigi could also get some mileage out of it if they didn't use their Down B beforehand. Maybe it can also help Ness, lol. Everyone else though don't really benefit much from it. The hollow floor also makes the edges really janky and leads somewhat to the same problems of lack of edges on Peach's. There are the upper platforms though, but they don't benefit everyone such as Jigglypuff or DK while recovering in some cases.

The barrel is also janky, but I'd imagine in most cases and match-ups for top level, it's heavily punishable. It's mostly as a last hope like trying to ever recover normally with Link. It really depends though on the match-ups since different characters fly up further away, and characters trying to punish it need good ground speed and fairly good vertical speed, which again, are mostly the better characters. The barrel (and also the rotating platforms) also are functionally random in placement with no in-game timer or other visual cues (that I know of). A trivial problem is also how dark it is and that certain character colours can't be played, but that's a completely avoidable issue, including in Teams with Blue and Green. I'm curious about the really, really specific case where a team has characters that blend into the background of the stage, and one or more of the players are colourblind, but I'm pretty sure it's a non-issue fortunately.

Dreamland also isn't perfect, but it is by far the best and most neutral stage. The wind isn't constant unlike most other environmental effects and has only a small effect on the game, but there is that odd right-side edge problem mostly known for Pikachu's Up-B sweetspot, but also weird glitches like this. They're very minor compared to the other quirks of the other stages, but is is unfortunate it's not a "perfect" stage.

That aside, it is a fairly small stage and can become gimpland for a lot of characters, and I'm not sure how balanced it is in that respect. Really though, we could think up all sorts of stages that make the game balanced or unbalanced, and could make every match-up 50-50 or all roughly correct based on tier list placements. I think by comparing how match-ups are on other stages and taking a rough average of them all, Dreamland is usually quite close to that value meaning it's the most fair.

And the rest of the stages are banned for good reasons.

Dreamland only does decrease the depth of the game and somewhat dumbs it down, but it does keep the stage environment mostly out of the match, is the most balanced stage (I'd think), and with a single stage ruleset, there's no rules or skill/luck out of stage striking, and counterpicking is also simplified. Maybe for a two-stage ruleset including Congo, the first stage could be forced to be Dreamland unless agreed upon by both, and have Congo as a counterpick stage only. The question is how much jank are we willing to allow, and how does it affect match-ups? Should these very different stages be allowed despite altering gameplay and acting as the actual name "counterpicking", or do they make the game worse competitively? I'd be for Dreamland only personally.

(It also makes match-up charts easier to do :D)

 

[asianaussie]

http://smashboards.com/threads/revision-to-the-recommended-ruleset.331745/, see stagelist beta

i am 100% in support of a hyrule-banned tournament, simply for the sake of more data

i would also advocate one of the following stagelists

DL solo
DL-Congo-Zebes
DL-Congo-Peaches

DL being the starter stage in each instance, or Congo if you are a super cool dude

 

[clubbadubba]

DL, Congo, and Peaches all seem fine to me. Just because strategies for recovering and ability to do certain movement patterns are different doesn't mean the stage is unfair. To me, all stages are good unless there is a reason to ban them. Bumpers/triangles aren't a reason to me. They're always there, stop back-throwing into them and expecting a kill. No edges just makes the recovery game different. Maybe easier to edgeguard, but okay, it means edgeguarding is better on PC. It doesn't mean, oh something is different therefore BAN. Peaches castle might limit the metagame in recovery, but adds some pretty cool stuff to the metagame with the giant platform you can do shield drops through.

Bcow how about this ruleset. Players MUST play on all 3 stages. In a best of 3, you strike for first stage, loser counterpicks 2nd stage, and the final stage is whichever of the 3 is remaining (of course the winner of the second game must choose his char before the loser). In a bo5, all 3 stages would have to be played before you could choose a stage previously played on. In a bo7 you would play the first 3 games on all three stages, the next three games on all three stages, and the 7th stage would be up to the loser of the 6th game.

I really think that it is a more complete test of smash skill to play on multiple stages rather than playing over and over on dreamland.

 

[cmu6eh]

Legalize gameshark, use metal mario, final destination, and polygon

 

[Cobrevolution]

I really think that it is a more complete test of smash skill to play on multiple stages rather than playing over and over on dreamland.

this.

additionally, hyrule itself is not game breaking, nor is pikachu himself; it's the characteristics people exploit. people are gonna platform camp on DL or gay it up on the left side of hyrule or refuse to come to the ground on congo. when a player refuses to approach me i feel it should be legal to reach over and slap them, but i digress. you really shouldn't blame the stage for what the players choose to abuse.

also, i am not familiar with brawl or melee's workings but i believe there is a counter as to how many times you grab the edge, and tournaments have inserted a rule that limits how many times this can be done to prevent stalling/camping, right? it'd be wonderful to have something like that but alas we do not; we'd have to rely on other players' views, and all of those are different. some see annoying camping as good defense and others see good spacing as neutral camping.

 

[SheerMadness]

I like Peach's. Fun stage.

Zebes is way too big. The platforms are way too high off the ground.

 

[Yobolight]

IMO

Starter: Dreamland

Counterpicks: Dreamland, Congo, Peaches, Hyrule, Zebes

Winner of previous game gets 2 bans.

 

[clubbadubba]

Going to have to disagree with the principles there cobr. The general mindset in competition is that anything that can be abused, will be abused, and if you aren't abusing the characteristics of the stage/matchup then you aren't trying. If there is something that is so abusable that it is unfair, then you have to ban the thing that allows that abuse to take place, or ban the abuse itself. It is often extremely difficult to define the individual abuses so that they can be unbiasedly banned (i.e. stalling on hyrule), and the much more realistic solution is to ban the thing that allows the abuse (in the case of stalling on hyrule, hyrule itself). You can't blame players for abusing things that the rules or the officials allow them to abuse. It is the rules/officials fault for allowing it. Disclaimer: not saying I'm anti-hyrule btw.

Also, in melee/brawl I'm pretty sure there is just a time limit. Wobbling and a few of the glitches might be seen as stalling if you continue way past kill percents, but as far as stall tactics I think anything goes because they have a timer. I just watched a melee match the other day between m2k and dr. peepee where m2k grabbed the ledge like 15 times in a row when he had a stock lead.

 

[Battlecow]

Bcow how about this ruleset. Players MUST play on all 3 stages. In a best of 3, you strike for first stage, loser counterpicks 2nd stage, and the final stage is whichever of the 3 is remaining (of course the winner of the second game must choose his char before the loser). In a bo5, all 3 stages would have to be played before you could choose a stage previously played on. In a bo7 you would play the first 3 games on all three stages, the next three games on all three stages, and the 7th stage would be up to the loser of the 6th game.

Interesting.

I really think that it is a more complete test of smash skill to play on multiple stages rather than playing over and over on dreamland.

"complete" is such a fuzzy category. Yes, you're forcing people to be good at more things, but what that essentially means is prioritizing stage-based skill (how to play on various stages) over game-based skill (getting better on one/two stages)

Personally I think it's more fun/better for the metagame to watch two guys play a super-intricate, super-thought out game that they're good at rather than four games that they're not as good at.

It's one of the reasons 64 > melee. Fewer characters, so matchups aren't just decided by who has experience with which MU (unless you're kefit).

Gonna post a PC poll as well.

 

[clubbadubba]

true true it can be interesting to watch 2 players play the same exact matchup and watch how they adjust. My perspective is that as long as the stage isn't banned, it is fair, so who are we to say which one should be used? You could just say that THIS ONE is the one we'll use, but that strikes me as somewhat arbitrary. I know people often see dreamland as the most neutral stage, but I see congo as just as neutral. I can't pick one over the other for a one stage ruleset.

 

[Battlecow]

DL's wind is less gamebreaking than the barrel, when it comes down to that, so DL's (marginally) more competitive in that regard.

I'd like to hear an argument for Congo being sole neutral. I don't hate the idea although I have to admit to a DL preference.

 

[NovaSmash]

when did we decide to ban hyrule?

 

[clubbadubba]

DL's wind is less gamebreaking than the barrel

I actually think the opposite.

@Nova, we didn't. A lot of people don't like it though so there is a stage list that doesn't include hyrule, battlecow wants to discuss said hyrule-less stagelist

 

[rjgbadger]

there is a clause in the isai ruleset(the best one) that strictly prohibits camping. well, it doesn't strictly enforce it, but includes it. I believe that having multiple stages is a better test of skill between players. plus if you ban hyrule there are no tent combos, which are undoubtedly some the the sexiest things to hit the nintendo 64. plus if you can't beat a camper, go home. i don't think i've ever seen a top 10 player ever get outcamped to a point where there is no choice but to lose to said camper

 

[thegreginator]

Personally I think it's more fun/better for the metagame to watch two guys play a super-intricate, super-thought out game that they're good at rather than four games that they're not as good at.

This. My vote would be either DL only or DL-Congo. Assuming, of course, that Hyrule is banned (which it shouldn't be).

 

[Kimimaru]

Congo's moving platforms aren't random, though. They're visible most of the time, are equidistant from one another, and always move counter clockwise.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Going to have to disagree with the principles there cobr. The general mindset in competition is that anything that can be abused, will be abused, and if you aren't abusing the characteristics of the stage/matchup then you aren't trying. If there is something that is so abusable that it is unfair, then you have to ban the thing that allows that abuse to take place, or ban the abuse itself. It is often extremely difficult to define the individual abuses so that they can be unbiasedly banned (i.e. stalling on hyrule), and the much more realistic solution is to ban the thing that allows the abuse (in the case of stalling on hyrule, hyrule itself). You can't blame players for abusing things that the rules or the officials allow them to abuse. It is the rules/officials fault for allowing it. Disclaimer: not saying I'm anti-hyrule btw.

it is not allowed to stall, though. the rules prohibit it. i don't really see camping as an abuse of something legal but as something that's outright not allowed, at least according to what i have read.

from the index/ruleset thingy therein:

Extreme stalling is disallowed. Any reported case of such will result in a warning, followed by automatic forfeit of the match. If this is reported again, automatic forfeit is enforced without a warning. If there is no movement from either player, the player with fewer stocks/loser percentage is considered to be stalling.

i know you said it's "difficult to define the individual abuses so that they can be unbiasedly banned" but i mean, there already exists something legal (hyrule) and something illegal (stalling), so why not pay closer attention to that which is illegal and not sacrifice the other?

but i foresee a problem - pride, really. almost like you're looking for an easier way out if you call someone on camping. you might feel that you should be able to beat someone like that, or that you'll be looked at as a weaker player. it's sorta like calling fouls at the park - of the hundreds of ball games i've played in, i haven't called a single foul. rules prohibit people from wacking me in the arm when i shoot or pushing off me when they go up for a board or to set a screen or if my feet are planted and they charge into me...people gonna bomb the **** outta me if i go on my ass and call a charge. getcha weight up kid, you ain't big enough, wasn't no charge, etc. but there ain't no refs at the courts. we got other players and T.O.'s at tournaments - any spectators can be asked if there's camping going on, if it's a recording setup it could be rewatched, etc.

this felt a bit tangential actually. i'll come at it again with a clear head on the morrow mayhaps.

 

[Battlecow]

Stalling is being perpetrated by whoever's behind, so I hit you with a laser->you have to approach me in the tent->I win because I hit the first laser

also circumventing anti-stalling rules will lead to dumb circular rule-centric playstyles but we've discussed this a bunch already and this isn't the thread for it.

 

[Kefit]

Dreamland is the most balanced stage for almost the whole cast imo. Low tiers have a better chance to gimp higher tiers. Other than that Hyrule seems better for high Tier (fast movement) characters what makes DL even better.

This is the single most important thing written in this thread, and a point I don't think a lot of players really understand. Many characters - especially lower tier characters - are substantially better on DL than most players think. Compared to large stages like Hyrule and poorly designed stages like Congo, DL's small stage size, abundance of well placed platforms, and usable edges give low tiers more options in the neutral game AND much more powerful punishment/kill options. For examples of the latter:

- DK can do extremely deadly platform drop loops that control huge areas of the stage, not to mention low % throw gimps.
- Samus and Ness can use the platforms to tech chase reverse spike gimp, again controlling large areas of the stage. Nangoku beat me so badly on Dreamland because I didn't know Ness' sizable death zones.
- Mario and Luigi can use the platforms as ladders in uair chains, leading to gimps.
- Ness and Yoshi will mostly likely be able to kill you if they catch you in a djc shield break sequence. This is very often not the case on Hyrule. The small stage size also makes an aggressive Yoshi's double jump super armor much more effective, leading to more broken shields and thus more gimps.
- A smaller stage means that Jiggly's downB combos and back throw are much more likely to kill.

There's a conception that recovery is a lost cause for non-Pika characters, leading to easy DL throw -> edge guard gimps, but this simply isn't true. Pika's recovery can be read - he has a limited number of meaningful destination options, and is stunned for a short moment that seems like an eternity when he lands. Plus Pika dies a lot more quickly on DL simply due to the size of the stage and his small weight. Most other characters have options when recovering as well, giving them a chance to regain their footing by out playing the opponent. Go rewatch Isai vs Kikoushi for some brilliant examples of this.

Dreamland's other benefits include: discouraging Kirby and Jiggy air camping via platform roofs; promoting faster, more skill intensive games due to the small size forcing a more tumultuous neutral game; a lack of walls and and abundance of fall through platforms leads to constant, very fluid movement options that discourage camping (the solid walls on either side of the main Hyrule platform cut down on fluid movement substantially and play a large role in the stalled game states that often come up); no meaningful stage hazards. The only real drawbacks that I can think of are that DL promotes zero effort Falcon gimps off random hyperspeed dash grabs, and that Link is kind of a lost cause for people who aren't Isai.

All this is why Dreamland is clearly the best stage in the game, and thus the litmus test against which other stages should be judged. Speaking of which:

Congo - I hate this stage. It's essentially a worse version of Dreamland. The platforms are too high, substantially reducing their utility in terms of combos ladders, movement options, off-stage recovery options, and reverse spike tech chasing. The main platform is poorly shaped, with slopes that affect spacing in really strange ways and ultimately reduce the effective skill level of almost all players. The non-solid nature of the main platform aids characters that already have superior recovery. The barrel negates gimps and randomly saves otherwise doomed stocks. The revolving platforms are simply awkward, and I think they infrequently create interesting game states. Everything Congo does, Dreamland does better. So why bother? I guess it's not unreasonable as a counter pick choice, but ugh.

Peach's Castle - I actually love this stage. The big non-solid platform is at just the right height to create a very interesting arena with tons of movement options available at all times. If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm convinced that well placed non-solid platforms are key to fluid, interesting, and fulfilling SSB64 gameplay. I even think the lower moving platform frequently leads to interesting game states, and the fact that they aren't solid opens up lots of recovery options at lower percentages despite the lack of edges. The bumper sometimes saves people, but I think it's far less frequent and far less annoying than the Congo barrel. Clearly I think that Peach's Castle is a great stage that promotes fast paced, interesting, non-degenerative matches. It may not be well balanced between characters (for reasons already pointed out in this thread), but that's why they call it a counter pick.

So I'd be for Dreamland as starting stage with Peach's Castle and maybe Kongo as counter picks. Whatever the case, the vast majority of tournament matches will be pure Dreamland simply because that's where most players want to play.

 

[Battlecow]

A very compelling argument from kefit

the one criticism I have to make is that I don't think we should be focusing on which stages we "like"--I don't like Congo either, but that's a matter of personal preference and tbh has a lot to do with character choice. Fun is super subjective and everyone has their own idea of it. We should ban stages because they're unfair or because they lead to objectively stagnant or non-competitive gameplay tactics, and I don't think congo does any of that (aside from a little unfairness with the barrel which I honestly think does make it banworthy but which is nothing compared to nados or lava)

Are the moving plats awkward? Yeah, but they're not adding a randomizing element or breaking the game. They are they forcing you to "play against the stage" in a way that I don't like, but if you were used to congo the DL platforms would be annoying in the same way.

Whether we should attempt to equalize tiers with the stage list is another tricky question. I vote definitely not.

 

[Cobrevolution]

The barrel negates gimps and randomly saves otherwise doomed stocks.

AOL Keyword: randomly

i see a discrepancy with what you said

The non-solid nature of the main platform aids characters that already have superior recovery.

versus

I even think the lower moving platform frequently leads to interesting game states, and the fact that they aren't solid opens up lots of recovery options at lower percentages despite the lack of edges.

not sure why you prefer peach's (with respect to the aforementioned reason) when it's doing exactly what congo does, but more irregularly. do you think that the non-solid nature of congo's main platform does not "lead to interesting game states" or "open up lots of recovery options at lower percents"?

further, the platform is just as random as the barrel. they appear to move at similar speeds. so really, it's just as game changing as the barrel. that is, it can help you greatly, IF it's there, or it can torment you if it's moving JUST enough that you can't reach it.

and the ledge thing has been discussed, but i mean, if you miss the ledge in congo, you may still get the barrel. if you miss the ledge in peac-- oh right, you're ****ed anyway, thus making you DEPEND on the platform, whereas you do not need to DEPEND on the barrel.

and I don't think congo does any of that (aside from a little unfairness with the barrel which I honestly think does make it banworthy but which is nothing compared to nados or lava)

you think something that aids every single character's recovery is banworthy? it's a universal plus for everyone. i might even go so far as to argue that it helps matchups - all of a sudden link has the chance (CHANCE) to get back from a backthrow by the edge, low percent dairs on falcon or dk might send them near/into the barrel.[/quote]

 

[Kefit]

i see a discrepancy with what you said

Clarification: the Peach's Castle platform creates interesting gameplay here because 1) it doesn't have edges and 2) the top overhanging ledges and side bumpers frequently create situations where characters are off but very close to the stage, and thus have options available to come up from underneath. This generally doesn't happen on Congo.

A very compelling argument from kefit

the one criticism I have to make is that I don't think we should be focusing on which stages we "like"--I don't like Congo either, but that's a matter of personal preference and tbh has a lot to do with character choice. Fun is super subjective and everyone has their own idea of it. We should ban stages because they're unfair or because they lead to objectively stagnant or non-competitive gameplay tactics, and I don't think congo does any of that (aside from a little unfairness with the barrel which I honestly think does make it banworthy but which is nothing compared to nados or lava)

I agree, which is why I concede that it's not unreasonable to have the stage available. It's just lame =p

Are the moving plats awkward? Yeah, but they're not adding a randomizing element or breaking the game. They are they forcing you to "play against the stage" in a way that I don't like, but if you were used to congo the DL platforms would be annoying in the same way.

Not really. The Dreamland platforms are at the proper height to open up a host of powerful tactics for many characters. The moving Congo ladders aren't really good for anything except combo ladders when they align properly.

Whether we should attempt to equalize tiers with the stage list is another tricky question. I vote definitely not.

I agree. But I'm starting to think that strict Dreamland only might be the way to go simply because it's so much superior to every other stage. Japan's got the most developed Smash scene in the world, so perhaps we should look a bit more closely at what they are doing.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Peach's castle is fine, imo it should be the 3rd neutral along with Hyrule (as everyone seems to hate congo with a passion for some reason..well I am part of this also)

The platforms on Peach's make combos rather different but rather easy. Everyone can abuse them which is similar to how everyone can abuse DL. Same applies to the bumper

And for anyone saying that congo barrels ever help your recovery, you see how much stun a character is in once they are launched, I don't think I have ever seen someone recover off of that unless they were at such a low percent that the opponent could not combo them after.
I do agree that combos are harder on Congo due to the weird platforms, might be why I dislike the stage.

 

[Kefit]

The main problem with the barrel is that it randomly saves people from gimps. The barrel passes by and picks them (or you) up while you're in the middle of combo gimping them. They'll probably be at low percentage because of the gimp and thus able to recover with the barrel. It's incredibly obnoxious and lucksacky. You can't really follow the barrel's position either, since it's off screen most of the time.

 

[MrMarbles]

I agree with Koro on this one. When u land in the barrel you are still gonna die THE MASS MAJORITY of the time. i dont see the problem here.

 

[clubbadubba]

-kefit you can track the position of the barrel. Track the platforms and/or listen to the music, and you'll know where it is, so its not random AT ALL. The only random element of congo is when the barrel spins, which shouldn't effect you if you are paying attention.

-People just don't like congo because its unfamiliar to them. Just because you have to learn new spacing techniques (slanted platform), new combos (different platform set up), and new edgeguards/recovery (barrel + high platform) doesn't mean the stage is bad. It means your knowledge of one stage doesn't completely translate to knowledge of another stage, which is expected in every case.

-Kefit's your opinion that dreamland platforms are inherently better than congo platforms is one that is based largely off of stage experience. Gotta agree with bcow, if you were used to congo, dreamland plats would be awkward.

Only one stage is silly when there is more than one valid stage available. We shouldn't be picking the stages so the metagame is shaped the way we want it to be shaped. We should be shifting the metagame to work best on the non-jank stages.

 

[Battlecow]

Only one stage is silly when there is more than one valid stage available. We shouldn't be picking the stages so the metagame is shaped the way we want it to be shaped. We should be shifting the metagame to work best on the non-jank stages.

Why? I don't understand the assumption that more stages is better. A one-stage metagame would be a lot cooler, IMO--instead of learning stage tactics you learn actual gameplay tactics, and it gets rid of the back-and-forth which increases variability...

I don't think "Japan does it" is a valid reason for picking DL only, though. Tacna players are almost certainly better than japanese players by the Tacna ruleset, and they play hyrule only (ugh).

I do support DL only, but I don't think that's a reasonable goal. Right now I'd be satisfied with getting rid of ****ing hyrule.

 

[clubbadubba]

I don't think there is a difference between "stage tactics" and "gameplay tactics." Every stage has its own set of viable tactics. Using only one stage wouldn't eliminate stage influence, it would merely be us choosing which set of viable tactics we like the best. Preference is something that doesn't have a place in a competitive ruleset imo.

 

[mixa]

you can track the position of the barrel. Track the platforms and/or listen to the music, and you'll know where it is, so its not random AT ALL. The only random element of congo is when the barrel spins, which shouldn't effect you if you are paying attention.

How can the music help? I'm clueless.

The rest of this post is me saying the moving stuff in Congo and PC should be treated as random. Though I think this is a minor point in the discussion.


Congo Jungle - barrel:

The position is not random because it's sync'd with the also-not-random platforms. but the problem is that you can't deduce much from the plats, since they both look alike.

ㅤㅤ• If vertically aligned, the barrel is in the middle, but you have no way of knowing which way it's going unless you can multitask like nobody's business, i.e. keeping an eye on the platform movement the whole match and never losing track of which plat is which.

ㅤㅤ• If horizontally aligned, the barrel is either at the far right or the far left of its trajectory. So that's random.

[collapse=aligned vertically]

[/collapse]
[collapse=aligned horizontally]

[/collapse]
So, while it's not random, it's random enough. Maybe the spinning isn't random, but sure is random enough. Besides, being the player who's comboing or being the player who is getting comboed, I don't think any of them take in consideration the position of the barrel if it's not visible.


Peach's Castle - moving platform:

If the hovering bumper is moving to the right -- meh, it's simple but a bit hard to describe the movement, because it's not very precise. So if you wanna know, enable infinite jumps and just watch the stage for a while. The platform is always moving while the bumper isn't. Not randomly, but random enough for anyone who's doing anything other than looking for patterns.
In terms of randomness and predictability, it's worse than the barrel, I'd say.

 

[clubbadubba]

Music is like a timer. You'd have to memorize the song and the barrel position at various points. Pain, but possible.

By your definitions, the dreamland wind is also "random" because the timing of it is unpredictable as far as we know. The game was not designed to have completely neutral stages unfortunately. But a few of the stages have hazards that don't effect the game nearly as much as others and those are the ones we have to deal with.

 

[Kefit]

-People just don't like congo because its unfamiliar to them. Just because you have to learn new spacing techniques (slanted platform), new combos (different platform set up), and new edgeguards/recovery (barrel + high platform) doesn't mean the stage is bad. It means your knowledge of one stage doesn't completely translate to knowledge of another stage, which is expected in every case.

-Kefit's your opinion that dreamland platforms are inherently better than congo platforms is one that is based largely off of stage experience. Gotta agree with bcow, if you were used to congo, dreamland plats would be awkward.

Congo is unfamiliar to people because it's a mediocre stage and thus people rarely want to play it. While this is a reflection of my preferences, my preferences are a reflection of the objective design qualities of the stage vis-a-vis SSB64 mechanics and competitive game flow.

Dreamland is objectively superior because the platforms are low enough to add tons of movement options and to enable the wealth of tactics I described in my first post. This is primarily because all characters can jump on to the platforms with a single jump. The Congo platforms do not share this characteristic, and thus do not add nearly the level of depth to the stage. Characters simply can't travel between the Congo platforms quickly enough to enable interesting gameplay tactics.

I don't think "Japan does it" is a valid reason for picking DL only, though. Tacna players are almost certainly better than japanese players by the Tacna ruleset, and they play hyrule only (ugh).

I do support DL only, but I don't think that's a reasonable goal. Right now I'd be satisfied with getting rid of ****ing hyrule.

I did not say "Japan does Dreamland only so that's what we should do." I said "Japan uses Dreamland only, Japan has a more developed Smash scene than us, perhaps we should seriously examine DL-only and determine the advantages of that scheme."

I have no idea why getting rid of Hyrule is such a contentious issue. All the good competitive players want this. The tournament rulemakers just need to grow some balls and stop listening to the whiny scrubs when it comes to designing competitive rule sets. You running a no Hyrule tournament would be a good start.