Balance patches are spoiling us

[Tenretsujin10]

I feel that we Smash 4 players rely too much on balance patches nerfing characters to the point where it becomes disgusting. anyone agree?

 

[mario123007]

I only dislike balance patch because it wrecks replays...

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Amen to that.

 

[Divemissile]

How are we relying on balance patches? It's not like we can control them.

 

[AaronSMASH]

I feel that we Smash 4 players rely too much on balance patches nerfing characters to the point where it becomes disgusting. anyone agree?

I have been saying something similar for a while. For whatever reason, a substantial portion of the community seems resigned to letting patches "balance" the game. But people's opinions on "balance" are dependent on where the metagame is. The game ISN'T EVEN 2/3rds OF A YEAR OLD. There are 140 or so days till sm4sh's first birthday. The metagame is nowhere CLOSE to fully developed. NOBODY is close to reaching the skillcap. Not even ZeRo. Much less multiple people who can safely determine among themselves which characters are "to powerful".

To make a safe judgement call on which characters "need" to be toned down, we need to have people who display a "mastery" of the game. If we don't know what the full potential of each character looks like then how the hell can we know who needs a nerf?

I believe the meta could change substantially over the next few years as people begin to REALLY unlock the potential of each character.

I personally think that the game will change from this footsies heavy chess match and be defined by hyper-aggressive offstage/edge game and much more consistent punishment.

I could be wrong, but even if I am, it is way WAY to early to make any accurate judgements. I love the idea of balance patches, but not until people really get a sustantial grasp of the game.

I'd also like to add that the only reason we see a correlation between frame data and the characters who consistently place highly in tournaments is because everyone is bad! So, naturally, the most forgiving characters will do better!

 

[Tenretsujin10]

How are we relying on balance patches? It's not like we can control them.

We as a community contribute to them. Our complaints towards certains aspects of the game fuel what balance updates are. Can't watch a smash 4 tournament set with Sheik without hearing that she needs a nerf, even if she loses. Wouldn't surprise me if she gets nerfed next patch.

 

[mario123007]

I hope they can release patches that fix bugs and glitches rather than refining character's status. I mean, the 3DS version still has some bugs and glitches that aren't fixed.

 

[E-Mann]

I have been saying something similar for a while. For whatever reason, a substantial portion of the community seems resigned to letting patches "balance" the game. But people's opinions on "balance" are dependent on where the metagame is. The game ISN'T EVEN 2/3rds OF A YEAR OLD. There are 140 or so days till sm4sh's first birthday. The metagame is nowhere CLOSE to fully developed. NOBODY is close to reaching the skillcap. Not even ZeRo. Much less multiple people who can safely determine among themselves which characters are "to powerful".

To make a safe judgement call on which characters "need" to be toned down, we need to have people who display a "mastery" of the game. If we don't know what the full potential of each character looks like then how the hell can we know who needs a nerf?

I believe the meta could change substantially over the next few years as people begin to REALLY unlock the potential of each character.

I personally think that the game will change from this footsies heavy chess match and be defined by hyper-aggressive offstage/edge game and much more consistent punishment.

I could be wrong, but even if I am, it is way WAY to early to make any accurate judgements. I love the idea of balance patches, but not until people really get a sustantial grasp of the game.

That's common sense to me.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I hope they can release patches that fix bugs and glitches rather than refining character's status. I mean, the 3DS version still has some bugs and glitches that aren't fixed.

That should be the main purposes of patches, not to overhaul characters every patch. I would rather not have this game turn into league of legends.

*I would LOVE for the bug where dash grabbing an opponent onto the edge of the stage resulting in pummels doing 0 damage to be fixed.

 

[AaronSMASH]

That should be the main purposes of patches, not to overhaul characters every patch. I would rather not have this game turn into league of legends.

*I would LOVE for the bug where dash grabbing an opponent onto the edge of the stage resulting in pummels doing 0 damage to be fixed.

I don't see anything wrong with having a league of legends style patch system. New content and balancing are both great things. But we don't even know for sure what is 'to good' because the meta isn't even close to developed.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I don't see anything wrong with having a league of legends style patch system. New content and balancing are both great things. But we don't even know for sure what is 'to good' because the meta isn't even close to developed.

The reason I don't want this game to become like league of legends is because of the every changing meta game that is league of legends. This game shouldn't need new flavors of the month characters every patch, while turning old flavors of the month into crap.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What characters got patched into oblivion? Greninja went from Top to High, Diddy is stiil quite good, Sheik is still the best in the game. Also, it's not like anyone's said "I'm not playing until the game gets changed." Smash 4 tournaments are still bringing in a ton of people playing whatever characters they enjoy.

It sounds like you're complaining about something that was never a problem to begin with.

 

[AaronSMASH]

The reason I don't want this game to become like league of legends is because of the every changing meta game that is league of legends. This game shouldn't need new flavors of the month characters every patch, while turning old flavors of the month into crap.

I don't think we would see that FOTM culture developed in smash because it's less strategically complex. It's more straightforward. But you're right, I would rather them not touch any of the characters if it would mean major changes. I think this game is far more balanced than people give it credit for.

But again, we can't possibly know that until people start to master it and unlock each characters potential.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

What characters got patched into oblivion? Greninja went from Top to High, Diddy is stiil quite good, Sheik is still the best in the game. Also, it's not like anyone's said "I'm not playing until the game gets changed." Smash 4 tournaments are still bringing in a ton of people playing whatever characters they enjoy.

It sounds like you're complaining about something that was never a problem to begin with.

The main problem I'm addressing is that I feel like we're asking too much for balance patches. That's the direction I feel this game could potentially go if this trend intensifies. The game hasn't become like this yet, but it feels like a possibility.

 

[Xermo]

>Implying smash4 players weren't composed of pansies to begin with

 

[Tenretsujin10]

What characters got patched into oblivion? Greninja went from Top to High, Diddy is stiil quite good, Sheik is still the best in the game. Also, it's not like anyone's said "I'm not playing until the game gets changed." Smash 4 tournaments are still bringing in a ton of people playing whatever characters they enjoy.

It sounds like you're complaining about something that was never a problem to begin with.

Oh, and my "nerf characters to high hell" was geared more towards league of legends than smash. I was a HUGE talon player in League and played him every chance I could, then he became popular in LCS and other league circuits, then people complained about him and he got nerfed to crap.

>Implying smash4 players weren't composed of pansies to begin with

Feels like we're more panzy-like of a community compared to the melee community. Then again the melee community had 14 years to develop.

 

[Joeyd123]

The only thing that ever needed to be nerfed was the Hoo-Hah combo. Its kinda annoying with all these nerfs because they make characters less fun to use

 

[Tenretsujin10]

The only thing that ever needed to be nerfed was the Hoo-Hah combo. Its kinda annoying with all these nerfs because they make characters less fun to use

I feel for you, since your character Sonic gets nerfed like every balance patch.

 

[mario123007]

That should be the main purposes of patches, not to overhaul characters every patch. I would rather not have this game turn into league of legends.

*I would LOVE for the bug where dash grabbing an opponent onto the edge of the stage resulting in pummels doing 0 damage to be fixed.

Yeah, I'm for most of us who aren't a competitive Smasher. We want a patch that won't make our game dead. But balance or mode update patch, maybe once per six months.

 

[Storm Erion]

I'd just rather have characters get buffed that really need it (Zelda, Samus, etc) instead of characters getting nerfed. I wouldn't really want to play with the worry that down the road, what I'm doing won't work anymore.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Storm is right, no one needed nerfs, the worse off characters needed buffs.

Aside from that note, I don't think Sakurai or whomever works on patches listens to the competitive scene. He's getting the complaints from the main audience of the series. (That kid who thought grabs were cheap when you used to play at his house.)
Looking at it from the other side of the spectrum, such as a Falco main like myself after fair got nerfed heavily, all you could do is hope that your character gets something to help him. Yeah he was buffed recently, but his main problems aren't fixed, which is why I've given Smash 4 a break.

People are expecting patches to come in and fix everything wrong with their main so they can be "top tier" or at least "not garbage" when obviously it's not going to happen. I was apart of this myself.

 

[AaronSMASH]

I'd just rather have characters get buffed that really need it (Zelda, Samus, etc) instead of characters getting nerfed. I wouldn't really want to play with the worry that down the road, what I'm doing won't work anymore.

See THIS is our problem. "Buff my character! It's bad!" Or "omg nerf sheik 2 stronk".

Samus doesn't need any help whatsoever. What she NEEDS is for people to get BETTER at her and the game in general. I'm betting you tried samus for a while and just gave up or couldn't manage to get good with her.

But that is YOUR problem

Here is a good Samus that could easily compete with the best of them.

https://youtu.be/g8_X2Ff6srQ

Why? Hard work, devotion, and a lot of time invested.

And I'm not trying to single you out sorry if you take offense, but it's that attitude that is SO PREVALENT in the community that is paralyzing the metagame. We need people to push it, not complain about it.

 

[Joeyd123]

I feel for you, since your character Sonic gets nerfed like every balance patch.

Haha I stopped using Sonic months ago m8, I just forgot to change it. But back to my main point these nerfs are unneccessary, I will gladly accept buffs. However, the reality is they can't buff every character who's bad because then they would be too dominant for casual players.

Example: If they buffed Bowser to the point where he was good competitively. Then for casual gamers he would be absolutely insane. Because currently he is a pretty solid character for the casual gamer.

And from what we have seen so far. Nintendo wants to also balance casual play, which is why no heavies will be buffed to a competitively viable level.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

I would like to see the meta-game evolve and underused characters explored and developed before seeing nerfs. Buffing the underused characters slightly can help open that door, but nerfing characters won't. I feel that Sheik is pretty good where she is right now, and Diddy Kong was in the perfect spot in 1.0.7, etc.

 

[Storm Erion]

See THIS is our problem. "Buff my character! It's bad!" Or "omg nerf sheik 2 stronk".

Samus doesn't need any help whatsoever. What she NEEDS is for people to get BETTER at her and the game in general. I'm betting you tried samus for a while and just gave up or couldn't manage to get good with her.

But that is YOUR problem

Here is a good Samus that could easily compete with the best of them.

https://youtu.be/g8_X2Ff6srQ

Why? Hard work, devotion, and a lot of time invested.

And I'm not trying to single you out sorry if you take offense, but it's that attitude that is SO PREVALENT in the community that is paralyzing the metagame. We need people to push it, not complain about it.

First off, no, I do not play Samus. I play Link, and have played Link in most smash games. It's not good to just assume things out of people.

Secondly, while yes anyone can win with any character, you can't really deny that some are better than others. I know you apologized for "singling me out" but it's still kind of rude to just assume I played a character and wasn't good with that character.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

See THIS is our problem. "Buff my character! It's bad!" Or "omg nerf sheik 2 stronk".

Samus doesn't need any help whatsoever. What she NEEDS is for people to get BETTER at her and the game in general. I'm betting you tried samus for a while and just gave up or couldn't manage to get good with her.

But that is YOUR problem

Here is a good Samus that could easily compete with the best of them.

https://youtu.be/g8_X2Ff6srQ

Why? Hard work, devotion, and a lot of time invested.

And I'm not trying to single you out sorry if you take offense, but it's that attitude that is SO PREVALENT in the community that is paralyzing the metagame. We need people to push it, not complain about it.

One no-name Samus playing another no-name Falcon doesn't show that Samus is a good character. Along with everyone trying to be like Hax in melee and have a "epic Falcon" I'm pretty sure the Samus has seen much of the match-up.
Most people would agree Samus is bad, and I would actually agree that she needs a bit of help. There's a reason why there a barely any notable Samus mains.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Guys, stop double posting please.

 

[AaronSMASH]

One no-name Samus playing another no-name Falcon doesn't show that Samus is a good character. Along with everyone trying to be like Hax in melee and have a "epic Falcon" I'm pretty sure the Samus has seen much of the match-up.
Most people would agree Samus is bad, and I would actually agree that she needs a bit of help. There's a reason why there a barely any notable Samus mains.

First of all, just because YOU don't know them doesn't mean they are 'no name'. And here's one against someone you might know. They aren't as well known because they are european.

https://youtu.be/PyV333vwqGE

And that tournament had a LOT of people.

8 months into the game and not many 'notable' people are using a specific character. That must mean it sucks! That is flawed logic.

As I said before, the reason we see characters with better frame data frequently place well at tournaments is because they are more forgiving of mistakes/harder to punish and everyone is bad right now.

The more people devoting significant amounts of time to the game and the more time spent figuring it and the characters out, the more diversity we will see. Give it time. Don't just cry for buffs..... PRACTICE.

 

[AaronSMASH]

Guys, stop double posting please.

Do you mean the thread has been posted twice or replys to the thread? Because I haven't seen anyone double posting.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

Do you mean the thread has been posted twice or replys to the thread? Because I haven't seen anyone double posting.

I accidentally double posted in one of my replies instead of editing. was my B.

 

[AaronSMASH]

First off, no, I do not play Samus. I play Link, and have played Link in most smash games. It's not good to just assume things out of people.

Secondly, while yes anyone can win with any character, you can't really deny that some are better than others. I know you apologized for "singling me out" but it's still kind of rude to just assume I played a character and wasn't good with that character.

You're right. I shouldn't have assumed that. But I wanted to exemplify what I think the pervading mindset is in the community that I think is really holding the metagame back.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

My philosophy is that lower tier characters should be buffed upwards. I do think that Shiek and Rosa need to be nerfed just a little bit. But yea, buffing the lower characters is the way to go. Make characters like Marth, Charizard, Samus, and Zelda more tournament viable. I'd love to have a Smash where every single character in the game is viable, and a different character wins every national.

 

[Tenretsujin10]

My philosophy is that lower tier characters should be buffed upwards. I do think that Shiek and Rosa need to be nerfed just a little bit. But yea, buffing the lower characters is the way to go. Make characters like Marth, Charizard, Samus, and Zelda more tournament viable. I'd love to have a Smash where every single character in the game is viable, and a different character wins every national.

Very valid point, although I would say Charizard is already tournament viable. Hate the Diddy changes in 1.0.8 (not even a diddy player), but love the Ike changes.

 

[Mr. Potatobadger]

Very valid point, although I would say Charizard is already tournament viable. Hate the Diddy changes in 1.0.8 (not even a diddy player), but love the Ike changes.

I agree completely, Charizard IS tournament viable. Did you watch CEO? One of the earlier matches featured a guy I've never heard of who played Charizard, and a player I was familiar with (who I can't remember the name of right now), who played Sheik, and is also up towards the top of Anthers ladder.

The Charizard actually beat the Sheik! He won the set! It was amazing, to say the least. But yea, I think Charizard could be very viable, just someone needs to step up to the plate. A buff would help, though.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Do you mean the thread has been posted twice or replys to the thread? Because I haven't seen anyone double posting.

What you just did IS a Double Post: having the same person posting twice in a row.
If you missed something, or want to reply to someone else, please add it to your post by editing it in instead of posting again.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

As long as characters all have different movesets there will never be perfect balance. I am more in the vein that the game should be left alone and the game allowed to develop in whatever direction it develops towards.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

This seems like a good time to point out that most changes in every patch have been buffs. People always overreact to nerfs, but for any patch where one character got nerfed probably three others got just as large of changes as buffs.

I'm really in favor of balance patching; not balance patching has predictable and detrimental outcomes. In Melee, it resulted in the bottom half of the cast being completely irrelevant for basically the game's entire lifespan. In Brawl, lots of serious problems (like ICs chaingrabs) just festered, and MK really needed nerfed but never was (unless you played Balanced Brawl, great project that one). Sheik, Rosalina, and Diddy in their original (1.0.0) versions were all probably good enough to seriously damage the game long term; look at how much damage Diddy did since they waited too long to nerf him, and then realize that 1.0.0 Sheik and Rosa were a lot better. All of Olimar, Shulk, Ike, Falco, and Charizard at least (arguably more characters, Kirby and MK definitely on the table) got buffs large enough to significantly change their playability for the better. Abusive gimmicks like G&W + Pika doubles bucket, Olimar pikmin amplification, and Villager under the stage stall have been fixed up. They even fixed that small bug on Wuhu Island and significantly improved Lylat Cruise. Obviously we still don't know everything about the long term balance of this game, but on the surface every patch has made the game as a whole better. Even as a Rosa main, I'll happily give up the easy wins with my previously overpowered character in exchange for playing a better game that will have a longer and healthier life.

 

[AaronSMASH]

My philosophy is that lower tier characters should be buffed upwards. I do think that Shiek and Rosa need to be nerfed just a little bit. But yea, buffing the lower characters is the way to go. Make characters like Marth, Charizard, Samus, and Zelda more tournament viable. I'd love to have a Smash where every single character in the game is viable, and a different character wins every national.

No, what it seems like you (and a large portion of the community) want is for the more difficult characters or those characters that are less forgiving of mistakes be easier to learn and allow for sloppier play.

Not a single character in the game can be considered "not viable" in tournament play because we have no way of knowing the full potential of any given character after only 8 months.

This mindset has to change or the meta will never have the chance to fully develop. All I see are people either complaining about "top tier" characters, complaining about characters being "low tier", or adopting the characters they see at tournaments because they don't want to put in the effort to, simply put, GIT GUD.

There are so few players who are actually trying new things and trying to develop the meta that the competitive scene may just die off before we even get to see its potential realized.

 

[RayNoire]

I want the game to be patched until every character is as close to balanced as is humanly possible.

Anyone who doesn't want that clearly doesn't play low tiers.

 

[AaronSMASH]

I want the game to be patched until every character is as close to balanced as is humanly possible.

Anyone who doesn't want that clearly doesn't play low tiers.

How do you know what is low tier when NOBODY, not a single person, has even come close to mastering any character?

Just say it. You want the game to be easier. Nothing wrong with that. It's an opinion.

I, however, am willing to invest time, practice and theory craft to get good rather than beg for my character to get buffed when neither I, nor anyone else, knows if any character actually needs a buff or if people just suck at the game.