Basic Tactics: Mario is Bad

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Before you all start posting about how wrong I am about the title of this thread I just want to tell you that although it may not seem like it...I'm doing this to help the community out now please just give like 5-10 minutes of you time to just hear me out and take in what I'm saying. Also if this kicks off like I hope it does I'll start writing more posts like this

I'm just going to throw this out there...Mario is a terrible character and there is a reason why he is in low tier...It's not because of Mario players placing poorly or because he isn't repped much in tournaments...it's because he is generally a bad character

Mario is the one character in this game that plays fairly and in this game playing fair isn't exactly what people want to be doing. I just want you to take a minute and think about grand finals of a major tournament or hell...even just matches between higher level players...at some point in the game there will just be some ridiculous unfair shenanigans going on. Now I know what you guys are all going to say "Mario has the FLUDD and Cape those are 'unfair'" but while those are tool Mario has the help fight all the things that are unfair they themselves aren't really that unfair. The Cape reverses momentum and turns people around...that really cool and it does help Mario fight somethings on stage and you can even GOTCHA people way off stage sometimes (which by the way isn't unfair...considering most of the cast is doing either similar things or killing by the percent you knock them off the stage)but with brawl's physics and being able to grab the ledge backwards it isn't really unfair. With FLUDD you have a few more applications but it's still pretty fair...FIHL sets up a Fsmash or a few hits...but don't other characters have just like...you know...regular moves that set up their kills? I want you guys to use this thread to discuss all the unfair/unique/gimmicky/helpful aspects about each character and how useful they are in all their match-ups.

Another thing that makes Mario a bad character is the fact that his good qualities don't make up for his bad qualities. When I'm judging how good a character is I look at a few different things...Speed, Mobility, Power/Priority, Range, Recovery, Adaptability..Lets take a look at Mario and break down each component

Speed: Mario's speed is not terrible, he's pretty quick on stage and in the air and it can sometimes catch people off guard

Mobility: Mario is pretty mobile his moves work really well together and you can get a few good consecutive hits provided you're able to read where your opponent is going and provided they can't give an answer for your move

Power/Priority: This is where Mario starts going down hill...his power is quite bad having (basically) one kill move is just so terrible and having to hit someone 5 or 6 times while they only have to hit you 3 or 4 times to get the same amount of damage is bad.

Range: Mario's range is so bad and in this game it's so important to be able to out range opponents...the last tournament I went to Nick Riddle and I were talking and he brought up something really funny to me...every other character in the game...when they jab...they really jab...they throw their arm/sword pretty far out there...where as Mario he just kind of keeps his arms close to his short little body...and that's a really good way to put it...he has a really short body...and his moves don't really go past that

Recovery: Mario's recovery is...ok...I guess?...but it's not versatile at all...don't get me wrong I've lived up in the higher percents with good DI and everything...but I really shouldn't...since the only way Mario can recover is from very far up...and usually to the ledge

Adaptability: Mario can adapt pretty moderately...but he has to work really hard to come back from a losing battle...and most of the time it's still just a losing battle...Also it's really hard for Mario to keep the lead since when he messes up it's usually really bad...and with his limited tools it's just very hard to snag control away from a match...one of my examples was when I was playing against MVD at FL Gaming 1...and the first stock...he got one hit on me...and then I beat the **** out of him and then his stock was gone and I was sitting pretty...after that though he figured out if he just played differently...and realized my tools can't beat his then he wouldn't lose another stock...and then he didn't


Now before you all start bashing me for talking about how Mario is bad I just want you to know...I'm not trying to defer people from playing Mario and I'm not trying to get any of you to stop I mean...look at me...I've been playing Mario forever...and I haven't stopped...what I'm trying to get you to realize is that Mario is a character with a lot of limits...too many limits and flaws to be considered anything but low tier...what I want you guys to take away from this is that while having pride for your character is good...don't be blinded by it...understand what your character is and how to make it work

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

I'm just going to leave this here...go to work and just wait to read some comments that are hopefully not just calling me bad words

 

[HeroMystic]

I couldn't have said it better myself, Monk.

 

[BSP]

Sigh, unfortunately, I couldn't agree more


Except I think Mario's attack speed is above average

However, I do think he can make it out of low tier though.

 

[steep]

The thing that I agree with and feel when I play Mario most is:

he has to work really hard to come back from a losing battle...and most of the time it's still just a losing battle...Also it's really hard for Mario to keep the lead since when he messes up it's usually really bad...and with his limited tools it's just very hard to snag control away from a match...

I feel like every mistake Mario makes causes him to take either lots of damage or lose a stock, and when someone messes up against Mario they take a couple hits and then continue to play with just a little more damage on them… It gets frustrating I think.

Also, Mario must constantly be changing his playstyle I feel like because if your opponent figures out your current playstyle then suddenly they can pick some tool that their character has and Mario just won't be able to beat it unless he changes playstyles again.

The problem is, Mario has to switch playstyles BEFORE they actually figure you out or you're screwed because, as I said before, if Mario makes a mistake (or in this case gets figured out) then he loses a stock. So I feel like Mario must be adapting faster than his opponent at all times, which is hard and requires Mario mains to be very creative because in certain MUs he only has a couple tools that work anyways.

This is all IMO though. What do you guys think?

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

I'm glad to see that this is getting a little attention...I would like more discussion on everything though...tell me what you think I'm wrong about...talk about what unfair things other characters do and how we can figure out what we can do with this very limited character

 

[BSP]

when someone messes up against Mario they take a couple hits and then continue to play with just a little more damage on them… It gets frustrating I think.

OMG yes. Even back in 08, this was the case. Mario hits you....oh well Hit him with one thing and equalize the damage. This is extremely noticeable with heavier characters in the game, and you'll notice that heavier characters tend to have the advantage vs. Mario because they can match him so easily.

Also, Mario must constantly be changing his playstyle I feel like because if your opponent figures out your current playstyle then suddenly they can pick some tool that their character has and Mario just won't be able to beat it unless he changes playstyles again.

Sigh, this is correct too. Mario is versatile and has his different playstyles...but they are all just average, and can be easily beaten by characters that just flat out have better tools. This point is so correct steep. I just got back from a smashfest, and when I went mario, if I started doing anything for more than 10 seconds, my opponents could just pick one option that was better and shut me down instantly.

I was just talking about this with some smash mates a second ago. Mario is just...flat out bad like Honk said. Just from glancing over the entire cast list, I noticed that you could argue that nearly every character in the game outranges Mario. Seriously

I can only really agree with you Monk. We really don't have any "unfair" tactics that are difficult to overcome.

Fireball camp? Powershield, or just blow right through the FB and hit Mario, because the lag on FB is significant. Even with our decent mobility, our camping is pretty lackuster.

Cape? Most good characters can avoid it easily.
is
can just recover high, and caping him gives him another cipher
's recovery is versatile enough to deal with cape. Also, even though it's predictable, it can be very hard to cape monkey flip kick at times
is

So really, cape is almost situational in Brawl. Only a few characters really need to be scared of it.

FLUDD? Situational at best. FIHL is ok at times, but it's not that hard to catch on to...when I fight mario's that shoot me with fludd, I just wait till the end of the stream to do anything, so I won't get lagged out.

Camp with any other move? We get outranged by nearly everyone in the game.

Not much "unfairness" in mario imo

Edit: We missed a weakness. If Mario is in the air and facing his opponent, he is at an extreme disadvantage since cape may turn them around, but it'll still get you hit in most cases, and fair is too slow to fight with in most aerial combat.

 

[Matador]

I agree for the most part. I also highly approve of the purpose behind this thread in general...knowing Mario's limitations is key to maximizing his potential, imo.

I only disagree as far as potential goes. I don't see characters like Ike, Sheik, Ness, Lucas, or Yoshi being that much better than Mario...not enough to suggest that some of the accomplishments that they have are out of Mario's reach. I think it may be a little more difficult for Mario to reach some of those heights, but I definitely believe it's possible.

 

[BSP]

Personally, I do see some of those guys being better by enough of a margin so that Mario can't replicate their performances.

They all have their weaknesses too, but unlike Mario, most of them have their own niche that actually helps make up for their weaknesses. As monk said, we have our weaknesses, but we don't really have any assets to avoid them.

Ness-> Horrible GR shenanigans, but he's got an amazing Air game to help avoid being grabbed.

Ike-> TBH, IDK what's holding Ike back on paper. He's got his jab which does massive damage for a jab, insane speed, insane range, and a lot of mixups; he's really strong and does damage fast as well

Shiek has + MUs against some of the more important characters and is really fast with good mobility, plus a transcendent projectile for camping purposes.

Basically, I think most other low tiers or low mids have some aspect that they're really good at, and their players can focus on this aspect to cover their weakness. Mario lacks this, and that's why I think those around him have more potential.

 

[Matador]

I feel like Mario's strength comes from utilizing all of his options effectively rather than just abusing one or two heavily.

Like...none of those characters is as well-rounded as Mario is, imo...which is a gift and a curse. Mario has a pretty decent OOS game, a projectile, a gimp game, (potentially) workable KO power, and a combo game. I rarely ever see a Mario that uses all of that effectively.

I've seen Xero use Mario's OOS game better than any other Mario by far...Boss gimps and abuses Mario's jab game and mindgame potential to make his KO power less terrible...Flame uses fireballs waaaaay better than I've seen any other Mario outside maybe 2Fast using them, but overall I've seen everyone utilizing his combo game.

That's not even everything. Some Mario's don't use some of the little, but really useful things that Mario can do like SHDair platform pressure and fullhop Uair OOS...I don't know how many Marios abuse Brinstar...

But I could easily be wrong. It feels like a bunch of Marios get close, but end up quitting or something before they reach full potential. BO X7 was close, Vato_Break was great, Boss prolly COULD get about as far with Mario as he could with Luigi tbh...I don't feel like it's out of our reach. It's just really hard, lmao.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

Well-rounded is implying Mario does everything somewhat good which is correct...but there are just somethings that he's just so bad at that if he doesn't have ANY qualities that stand out then he's just not that good...it all comes down to Mario can't get the kills he needs reliably...while on the other hand other characters take advantage of Mario's predictable recovery to get the gimp or just straight up kill him

 

[HeroMystic]

I feel like Mario's strength comes from utilizing all of his options effectively rather than just abusing one or two heavily.

I've been saying this ever since 2009.

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

There truly is no better way to have said that than this thread. I'm with matador here, I completely agree that the making of this thread would and is very important to those truly seeking to maximaze Mario's potential.

Also, sorry I've been gone for a while guys. Been really busy, and sick .

 

[Fire!]

I honestly thought that was what everyone thought of Mario already, but I guess we really need this wakeup call.

I don't think the problem is that Mario can't abuse anything... I think better way of saying it is that Mario can't counter anything. Since Brawl is such a defensive game, Mario has to rely on momentum to keep what little advantage he has in his favor. Once the tables turn against him however, there's really no way that Mario can outrange/outprioritze the other character so he basically has to sit there and take the abuse until the opponent messes up.

That explains why we see so many Marios that only utilize his combo game. If this game is about "abuse" and playing unfairly then it's natural that most players would only gravitate to that one aspect rather then trying to be a well-rounded character as Mario was intended to be. We have plateaued.

 

[steep]

I think Mario players could improve their counter game if they used OOS options better. And ssfsmash. ssfsmash actually has some good range on it (outranges Marth's fsmash iirc) and with the ss we step away first, which can cause an opponent to whiff. As for OOS options, usmash and up b obviously work well, and can be good momentum stoppers. OOS fullhop uair is good too, I've really started using it a lot more lately. And OOS sh dair. Of course, we can't get figured out or we'll lose the momentum and be punished for our failed counter.

 

[Coolwhip]

Nice thread, monk.

I guess we all can improve on the bad things mario has.

 

[ThatGuy]

Mario is a bad character because of the way Brawl mechanics work.

Mario has quite possibly the worst range in the game. This is mainly an issue because he does not have enough priority to compensate for that. His moves come out fast enough that he can oftentimes beat his opponents to the draw. Unfortunately, Brawl is a slow game, which relies on players using as perfect spacing as possible. This is coupled with the fact that there is no reason to get close since combos don't exist. To circumvent this, if you are outranged, you would normally use certain methods to try and get inside, such as airdodges, rolls, and sidesteps. Unfortunately, Mario's fastfall is too slow and floaty, so he won't be fooling anyone. His running speed is okay but he normally gets clipped before he can get within range to land anything anyway. His roll is alright but again he usually needs to be within an opponent's attack range to even start it up.

Mario suffers from having too few tools to compensate for his natural weaknesses.

 

[Matador]

Well-rounded is implying Mario does everything somewhat good which is correct...but there are just somethings that he's just so bad at that if he doesn't have ANY qualities that stand out then he's just not that good...it all comes down to Mario can't get the kills he needs reliably...while on the other hand other characters take advantage of Mario's predictable recovery to get the gimp or just straight up kill him

More or less...this pretty much sums up exactly where we are now.

So what happens next? Where do we go from here?

 

[HeroMystic]

Quite simply: You go back to the basics.

Technically speaking: Yes, Mario is a well-rounded character, but being a balanced character does not mean the character has to be used in a "balanced" fashion.

I have been saying for the longest time that the only way Mario will win matches is if the player studies the match-up intensively, as Mario never has a "win" button, which is something akin to Marth's F-air, Sonic's speed, or Snake's insane damage-per-hit. Out of all characters in this game, Mario is the only one who suffers from this drawback.

However, with this comes with a strength: Mario has a set amount of strengths that can be applied into each match-up. I'll separate this into three categories.

-Aggression
-Passive
-Technique

Aggression is what most would be familiar with: Implementing a combo game and constantly being up in the character's face, minimizing Mario's terrible range problem, and utilizing quick moves to press the momentum and keep pressure.

Passive is simply staying on the defensive stance, utilizing pokes and focusing on taking less damage than your opponent. OOS options are supreme here, mostly Up-B OOS and U-Smash OOS; essentially waiting for the opponent to make a mistake.

Technique is utilizing the general ATs and using them to your advantage, as well as techs specific to Mario, such as Cape Jump, FIHL and ACE. If there is any potential left in Mario, it's utilizing B-reversal fireballs, as I hardly see anyone implement this into their game at all. And really, most Marios seem to be at their weakest when it comes to their Technique.

The biggest culprit here seems to be that most Mario mains end up falling into a "Style" and sticking with it, and for the life of me I will never understand this method. I've went through this in the long forgotten metagame analysis thread and I suppose I'll reiterate here: You have to use all the tools available to Mario in any given match: Aggression, Passivity, and Technique. You will never become better Mario mains if you keep restricting yourself.

When using these three attributes, you gauge what you prioritize in the Match-Up. For instance, against Ganondorf you would probably go 70% Aggression, 20% Passivity, 10% Technique. Against Luigi it would be 30% Aggression, 50% Passivity, 20% Technique. Against Snake it would be 30% Aggression, 30% Passivity, 40% Technique. These are arbitrary numbers, and therefore should not be taken seriously, but it's generally just to make a point and put everything in perspective.

 

[PZ]

Don't mind me reading some good stuff here.
Quick Bio: Play a aggressive mario/passive mario with oos options
Been using him for a week now and he is funnest character with work hard additions
Here is a question for yall:
What do yall do against certain moves that give lots of shield stun or push you too far to punish?

 

[HeroMystic]

The simplest answer is Powershield. The more difficult answers are utilizing fireballs to create an opening or using FLUDD to screw up spacing.

 

[steep]

OOS upsmash sometimes has enough range to hit their hitbox too, especially if you are facing away from them because the hitbox is larger in the back of his head, so depending on how far you are pushed back this can actually be a good option to punish, as can ssfsmash. Just something to consider. Other than that, HeroMystic pretty much hit the nail on the head.

 

[- rko -]

So yeah, everyone has said it already and we all know deep down that Mario is just not that good . I however believe that Mario does have the tools to be altleast midtier at best. Like HeroMystic stated before, we all have to study our mu's and just try to prefect our craft and we got to show up at tourneys more whenever we get the chance to show everybody what Mario is worth. Only then, we as Mario mains or as a brotherhood, can make a difference.

 

[Veggi]

Before I get into this thread I just want to make my stance on Mario clear. I think that those saying he doesn't have a lot of options are incorrect. Mario has plenty of options, they just all suck. For example, give me a situation and I'll tell you how to deal with it. The thing about Mario is, even if you have an answer to their options, they also have an answer to yours and theirs are much better.

The easiest example of this is the Falco matchup and ways to avoid the grab. I'll have to number things to make it more clear.

1.) You try to camp Falco: He lasers against your fireballs. His lasers are better and don't get stopped by your fireballs. They don't get stopped by anything and they have much less lag. They also go very fast. You can cape them, but if he's doing short hop double lasers and cancelling his lag by touching the ground, the reflected lasers probably will not hit him. If you cape at DACUS range and you don't hit him with a reflected laser, he fills your plumber crack with a DACUS. Then once you get to him he side b's away and if you don't predict him he hits you for a couple % and he resets the situation. Mario has answers for this though, if he predicts Falco his best option is to get a soft spot nair, jab, or try to get lucky and hit him at a point where he's not invincible.

He can also reflect your fireballs, which do more to block your play path than reflecting his lasers. Also, it acts as a super long hit box to keep you out and your fireball has 3 frames to hit him when his reflector is not active. Good luck.

2.) You go in with some safe moves like bair or dair: Keep in mind that if you screw this up, the product is having half of your stock gone and possibly dying or getting read for more damage. Keep in mind that getting up normally or attacking both lose to his down air after the first dair to the ground, so you realistically only have 3 options. 2 if he dairs you on the edge. If you play correctly you have to remember that his bair is ******** and will mess you up as well as his lasers beating both of your moves. I've found that the safest method is to dair while rising into his shield, end the move behind him and then back air. Also remember that if you fool around his shield too much and he knows what's happening, he can adjust his position or up smash you OOS. Also remember that if you land near his shield and try to do a move on the ground he can shield grab you. Also, if he spot dodges your move you better be scared out of your socks because if you don't hit him in the 3 frames or something he's vulnerable (Falco I think is tied with the best spot dodges in the game), he will grab you and bad things will happen or he will up smash you and you might die.

3.) Run up to him and grab: You better hope to God he doesn't spot dodge it.

Mario can potentially give Falco like 49% if he reads right, but that stuff isn't guaranteed in the least bit and even pulling it off requires a technical skill above that of chain grabbing IMO. Also keep in mind that this doesn't even consider the reads you have to get on your opponent to make this happen. This means that Falco's big percent will probably get you and your big percent will probably not get him.

This basically goes to show that Mario can beat Falco and (although I didn't show it at all) every character in the game, but Mario has to play much better than that person to win every match. From my point of view, there are no Mario players that have the skill gap necessary to beat top Falco players. Actually, there are no Mario players that even have skill equivalent to that of top Falco players. This is why Mario mains do not beat top Falco players. His options, though vast, do not compare to the quality of those above him.

Power/Priority: This is where Mario starts going down hill...his power is quite bad having (basically) one kill move is just so terrible and having to hit someone 5 or 6 times while they only have to hit you 3 or 4 times to get the same amount of damage is bad.

Recovery: Mario's recovery is...ok...I guess?...but it's not versatile at all...don't get me wrong I've lived up in the higher percents with good DI and everything...but I really shouldn't...since the only way Mario can recover is from very far up...and usually to the ledge

As far as Mario's stats are concerned, I agree to everything I cut out. But I have more to add on what I quoted. I agree pretty much on the power thing, however I think that by Brawl standards, both up smash and forward smash are decent kill moves. It might just be the difference in our play styles, but my up smash is not usually not stale enough near the end of their stock that I consider it a bad kill move. It has more than enough utility to be landed in a high level match because it has decent range and it comes out fast, plus the lag isn't bad either.

I'd have to say that Mario's recovery is bad though, not just okay. Compared to other characters in this game it really is bad. If it was just judged on distance and ability to not be dependent on the edge/get people off the edge it wouldn't be that much better than Link's. He literally pops up and if they're hanging on the edge he's dead. At least Link slashes around for a little bit.

Luckily Mario's higher aerial mobility and slower falling speed help him with this. Then you add on that he has some options to fool people if you have a FLUDD charge ready and you shoot fireballs upon them. But then consider that Mario lacks forward air with high utility and his options to avoid being gimped become more bleak. You could cape to turn around, but do you really want to sacrifice your momentum? The cape doesn't stall as much the second time either. Mario's bair really doesn't have much range. Mario's fast fall doesn't go fast enough to trick them and even then you lose distance trying to fast fall. He can cape to stall against people on the edge, but if you don't guess it right you die.

If you get knocked out too far you have amongst the worst ability in the game to make it back. Good DI makes recovery problems less of a problem, but it still means you have much less room to make a mistake on your way back.

 

[Orion*]

It's not because of Mario players placing poorly or because he isn't repped much in tournaments...it's because he is generally a bad character

gotta be honest haven't met a single mario player other than boss who put in much of any work into this game. and boss stopped caring in 08 and mario... was his secondary. not to say that players here dont try or practice or something. but to place high it takes a significant push, being on the scene constantly, tech skill, clear and clean play, understanding of character tools. all of that, and then reads, spacing, and great mentality. to be honest i dont see that actively from mains of this character. I'm sorry.

 

[Fire!]

You've got to have a lot of money to blow if you want to be an active Mario main.

 

[HeroMystic]

to be honest i dont see that actively from mains of this character. I'm sorry.

I don't think anyone would be willing to dispute that anyway. I know I wouldn't.

 

[Orion*]

You've got to have a lot of money to blow if you want to be an active Mario main.

a majority of this community does Not make money in any way from this game, regardless of character selection. please don't delude yourself

 

[Fire!]

I guess I should rephrase what I said a bit.

You've got to have a lot of money to blow if you want to be an active SSBB player.

Props to all those who are.

 

[Matador]

I guess I should rephrase what I said a bit.

You've got to have a lot of money to blow if you want to be an active SSBB player.

Props to all those who are.

I thought it was phrased properly, lol...

Either way, I've always thought we needed more representation too...but everytime I look at one of those John #s charts...Mario's like...the most active low-tier.

Maybe not represented by the best often enough, but his charts suggest that Marios ARE going to tourneys, which should really make a difference in the long run.

Also Orion: Kirin was pretty active for awhile...he went to just about every NY shindig like...last year or the year before.

 

[Luigisama]

the only mario main that I've ever seen put in work was only Kirin. Every other mario I have seen seems to know the character, but they lack the mindset and reading that Kirin has.

 

[Monk/Honkey/Banana]

the only mario main that I've ever seen put in work was only Kirin. Every other mario I have seen seems to know the character, but they lack the mindset and reading that Kirin has.

gee thanks.....

 

[Ussi]

Ike-> TBH, IDK what's holding Ike back on paper. He's got his jab which does massive damage for a jab, insane speed, insane range, and a lot of mixups; he's really strong and does damage fast as well

You can powershield Ike's attacks not named jab and bair pretty reliability at the top level of play. Soo you REALLY need mindgames to work with Ike... which is a big big variable. Ike isn't mobile in sense he can approach so easily, and it's not hard to pressure Ike.

 

[Orion*]

the only mario main that I've ever seen put in work was only Kirin. Every other mario I have seen seems to know the character, but they lack the mindset and reading that Kirin has.

Kinda, I don't really think kirins mindset in general is that good tbqh. but that's just my opinion.

gee thanks.....

taking personal offense to small things doesn't help anyone lol.

 

[HeroMystic]

Last I heard, this thread is about making Mario better, not fanwanking.

 

[Luigisama]

Last I heard, this thread is about making Mario better, not fanwanking.

Making mario better? it's been like 3 years or something. Also I'm using Kirin as an example. How is he placing high with mario? More likely how can anyone do that? the marios that can do that clearly are trying to get better and have done it. I think the last thing mario mains need to be doing is making smart remarks.

@monk I didn't mean to say you sucked or any other mario sucked. The only marios that I have seen are inferno's and Omari's.

 

[HeroMystic]

I think the last thing mario mains need to be doing is making smart remarks.

There's nothing "remarkable" about it. Everything after Veggi's post has been clearly off topic. Orion's initial post is good despite the off-topicness, but all this talk about specific Mario mains "getting better" or being "awesome" is outright trash.

If you want to talk about how good Kirin or Boss is, explain why.

 

[- rko -]

I understand where you're coming from Hero, but like BC said himself he was just using Kirin as an example. And I don't think anyone has to explain why they think Boss or Kirin is good, because there past results/accomplishments speak louder than words.

 

[Coolwhip]

Why don't we just stay on the topic of this thread instead of talking about the mario mains that been there & done that.

 

[Orion*]

Last I heard, this thread is about making Mario better, not fanwanking.

Unless your like a mod or there was some SUPER DEEP INSIGHTFUL discussion going on previously i'm going to tell you i really could care less. nobody is trolling or anything, just discussing.

Why don't we just stay on the topic of this thread instead of talking about the mario mains that been there & done that.

You should know your history before you move forward with anything. You can't make "new" **** out of thin air. You should be able to just watch vids with no titles and be like, oh that's bosses mario, oh thats kirins mario, w/e ect.

Anyway

I got some matches vs ADHD and RJ I'll try and get RJ to upload them soon. Some matches are better than others. I think my movement is solid but my punishment game is definitely lacking in some areas imo. I also think I tend to challenge moves to much as far as edge guarding/followups go since I'm used to playing characters with more disjoints xD.

But as I go on I definitely start to break the habits.

I'll try and get some uploaded soon.

If there are any specific MU's you want me to try and play out I can see if I can get them this weekend.