BBR MU Chart 3: Sonic's Match Ups

[Espy Rose]

Hey guys, the time's come around again for the BBR MU Chart to be updated and discussed amongst the panelists, and I'll be in charge for the Sonic group. You can check out the thread concerning panels and their leaders here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=15036032#post15036032

Our current panelists are KID and myself, and we're limited to five panelists for the project. If you think you'd be able to help commit to the project, and help give some thoughtful insight into the match up discussions, then post in here with reasons to why you'd think you'd be a profitable resource to our discussions.

Additionally, understand that the discussions involve good exercise of your debating skills, and demonstrating poor behavior will be a punishable offense if it becomes problematic.

Any questions can be put in this thread, or you may alternatively PM Ishieymoro (http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=115940) or myself if you prefer a more private exchange. Panelist selections will be finalized in about a week or two. Discussions will begin immediately afterward.

Panel:
- Espy Kasrani
- da K.I.D.
- Meekspeedy
- Excel
- True Blue

 

[Seagull Joe]

Do you need me as a panelist Espy? Lemme know.

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Version 3.0 (My opinion)

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I think // are all 0 matchups and not -1. I know results have backed up all of these things. I also don't see why has an advantage on . sucks and probably +1's him.

 

[Life]

I agree with Seagull on Pika and Marth. GnW probably but I'm not quite sure about it yet.

Why is Sonic/Ness even though? I always thought it was +1.

Mario is kinda borderline in my experience.

Luigi is probably +1. PT might be, ask Reflex.

I understand Fox is kind of controversial as well?

What do y'all think about Lucas?

 

[Espy Rose]

Lucario is -3
Dedede is potentially a 0
Peach is 0
ROB is 0
Toon Link is 0
Marth is 0
Pikachu is 0
G&W is 0
Ness is +1
Lucas is proooobably a +1

That's more or less what I intend to change or defend should they be brought up.

@Life: As far as Fox goes, Fox and Sonic have pretty much parallel qualities that WOULD make them have a totally even match up if it weren't for the fact that Fox has pretty damn reliable KO moves on us, most of them killing much earlier than ours will be killing at.

 

[Seagull Joe]

, , and are not 0. is more likely -1 then +1.

 

[Life]

We do recover better than Fox, for whatever that's worth.

ROB is even because I said so, darn it (based on me only barely losing to two ROBs who were better players overall than me). I'd throw in the usual "bad player" disclaimer except I really don't see how it changes as the players get better, except in ways that benefit Sonic.

And I don't see Lucas beating us at all, although I think he's harder than Ness.

Words are more useful than numbers, though. Kindly enlighten me?

(Actually, is this even supposed to be a matchup thread, rather than a "sign up to be a panelist" thread? Maybe we should take this elsewhere?)

 

[True Blue]

I would like to be a part of this, and I think I could actually have some helpful insights to match ups here and there. I have certainly played against a variety of characters to get an idea of how a match up goes. And for the few I don't, I could easily read up the important bits to at least put a 1 cent thought into the mix.
Though if I can't be a part of this than that is cool, maybe next time. lol

 

[Espy Rose]

, , and are not 0. is more likely -1 then +1.

Rob, Dedede, and Peach are definitely 0. Lucas is more likely a +1 then -1.

 

[Life]

On the subject of panelists, does D1AOS still exist?

 

[TheAwesomefroggy]

His last activity was on the 7th, yes. http://www.smashboards.com/member.php?u=166176

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Welp looks like we're gonna be arguing the Sonic vs D3 MU in a few months lol.

 

[Espy Rose]

I probably won't want to deal with it to be honest. Arguing against a status quo is impossible back there.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Dude, I already know lmao.

Last year me and MMM tried to argue vs 5 MKs. Didn't work out too well

This is like jury duty.

 

[Exceladon City]

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- is gay as F for Sonic. Bananas and peanuts make Sonic's already limited approaches even more frustrating to utilize. Diddy also has a really lame spotdodge, a near ridiculous shield and high priority normals that all give Sonic's CQC the blues. A Diddy that is content with keeping a banana in hand and one on the stage not far from him is a pain in the nuts. Even maintaining a solid lead on Diddy can be a task. I'm going -2.

- while noticeably more annoying to see, isn't (imo) nearly as bad to fight against as Diddy. It's mostly figuring out how they deal with spindash and countering that option. Whether it be smash spam or grabbing all day, Olimar is going to do one of these two things (maybe both) to stop Sonic's approaches. ASC picks apart SH Latch and if you read the pivot grab, you can ASC into Olimar's head. Uthrow also puts Olimar in precarious situations because of his mediocre landing options; Olimar is highly susceptible to being ground camped, which is where most of the damage comes from. Olimar can do the same to Sonic with much more ease. It's really momentum based and the main issue with the MU is Sonic's inability to STAY in and maintain a steady offense due to Whistle and Usmash OoS. I'd give it a -1 just because Sonic does have the tools to make Olimar miserable, he just loses out to Olimar's incredibly annoying defense.

- Luigi can blow through a LOT of Sonic's nonsense. However, all Sonic needs is a lead and Luigi is in hell. Luigi literally HAS to chase Sonic around and aim to punish SDRs, make trades and hope that you can figure out a way past spindash camping. Luigi's only real saving grace is his ability to kill at like 85% and since his kill moves tear through/trade with most of Sonic's arsenal, it shouldn't be too hard to land one on a rogue spindash...IF you have an idea of how Sonic operates. If not, good luck. +1 Sonic

- The Peaches are going to whine, ***** and moan about the rating of this MU. In ALL seriousness, this MU is lame for both parties. It's literally whoever gets first kill, wins. Neither can kill and neither can really approach the other. If Sonic is in the lead, Peach has to try and lockdown Sonic. If Peach is in the lead, Sonic has to Bair everything and avoid Dair zoning. If played correctly, you're either going to 2/3 stock each other or you're going to time. It's either even or slightly in Sonic's favor. I'll go with even.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Im going to post a matchup list that I believe in a bit, but Im going to leave out character that I believe I dont understand or have enough experience with to judge the matchup.

 

[WedginatorX]

[6:02:52 AM] Da1AndOnlySonic: Tbh I'm not willing to be on the panel this time around
[6:03:05 AM] Da1AndOnlySonic: discussing match-ups isn't really my cup of tea
Talked to him for you guys, doesn't seem like he's interested. Well there's one candidate down.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Version 2.0

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My version

-3

-2

-1

0

+1

+2

+3

characters left out + the ratio would give them if I were forced even though I dont feel confident in it.
+1 +1 -2 -2 0 0(the sheilda matchup is literally 100% sheik, I dont even know the sheik matchup well, but zelda gets reamed so hard by sonic, that theres nothing she could possibly contribute that sheik cant do.) +2

 

[WedginatorX]

Coming from someone who plays both characters, Sonic vs. Falcon is NOT +2 for Sonic, goggles.

 

[Life]

Wedge does KID still have you on ignore? (Er, I guess I should be asking KID that.)

And why isn't Falcon +2? Is there really anything he can do to us without the occasional lucky knee kill or whatever?

 

[WedginatorX]

Fastfallen uair and bair can both stuff spindash and other approach attempts as well as punish spindash jumps on block. Faster jab than ours that can stop spindash and land him a grab if properly timed, which also helps Falcon out in a neutral position at close range. And there's just not a lot that sonic really has over Falcon. Not saying Falcon wins, but what does Sonic truly have that would make it +2 for him? Nothing nearly as significant as his matchups against other low tier characters. Falcon has no worse of a disadvantage against sonic than Ike.

 

[da K.I.D.]

lol you know less about falcon than I do.

his only two good moves, jab and up air, beat out all our moves.

 

[WedginatorX]

Not sure if goggles responding to me, or if I'm still blocked and responding to Life.
Either way, he needs to unblock me already LOL.

 

[Life]

I'm assuming KID is talking to me.

And yeah KID, I don't know a lot about Falcon. I made that statement more to indicate that Wedge is disagreeing with you even though you might or might not still have him on ignore.

Coming from someone who plays both characters, Sonic vs. Falcon is NOT +2 for Sonic, goggles.

Fastfallen uair and bair can both stuff spindash and other approach attempts as well as punish spindash jumps on block. Faster jab than ours that can stop spindash and land him a grab if properly timed, which also helps Falcon out in a neutral position at close range. And there's just not a lot that sonic really has over Falcon. Not saying Falcon wins, but what does Sonic truly have that would make it +2 for him? Nothing nearly as significant as his matchups against other low tier characters. Falcon has no worse of a disadvantage against sonic than Ike.

Not sure if goggles responding to me, or if I'm still blocked and responding to Life.
Either way, he needs to unblock me already LOL.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Ive already admitted that I dont have enough experience to be comfortable making a judgement on that particular matchup.

and yes I still do by the way.

 

[WedginatorX]

Alrighty, works for me. I was just giving my input in response to make up for the lack of matchup confidence.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

Did anyone get a hold of BAM? He likes to write books and is a great debater.

 

[WedginatorX]

I'll give him a try as well.

 

[Life]

Alrighty, works for me. I was just giving my input in response to make up for the lack of matchup confidence.

10circumventingignorelist

 

[MeekSpeedy]

soo...what's going on with this?

 

[WedginatorX]

You, Espy, and Goggles have to find two other sonics who at least kind of know what they're talking about.
I suppose if you guys get really desperate I'd volunteer.

 

[da K.I.D.]

We already have the team picked out.

 

[MeekSpeedy]

So basically now we wait for the other boards to figure their **** out?

I see u there, FAE. Stop lurkin

 

[Espy Rose]

Basically, we just wait it out until the process begins.
What we can do right now is have all of the panelists pretty much lay out what they feel is our MU Spread that we should strive for on this next chart, and then have all of us in the panel find a grounding in which we all agree.

 

[C.J.]

Do any of you disagree with Marth being even?


Please say no

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I kind of disagree about being +1 because fire balls can easily clink with 's Spin moves and if Mario is close enough he can punish I would say its even in my opinion