-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
BBR Weekly Character Discussion #27: Lucas
- Thread starter Marc
- Start date
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Lucas has been packing on the pounds.
People sometimes underestimate Lucas. He's a high risk, high reward outlet for players to turn to and if you are the type of person who likes to read opponents and punish with devastating attacks (i.e. the kind of guy who tries to Fsmash with Snake after every dthrow), then you've got a friend in Lucas. His massive hit boxes (Read: Usmash), allow him a bit of leeway in prediction that is made up by the sheer size of the attacks coming your way. Unfortunately, he isn't very safe with many of these attacks, but he has a great setup with his fsmash out of jab lock. A good Lucas can go far, and I still believe he is better than Ness, but that's just me. Most people don't agree with this line of thinking, but he has such great mobility, nair being an especially awesome move. B reversing is awesome with Lucas, though not exactly necessary to doing well with him. His tournament placements leave much to be desired, but he does outstandingly well in low tier tournaments, more than enough to justify his current placement on he tier list.
Overall, I would say he doesn't need to go down or up. He's just about right where he should be in the current tournament environment. More skilled mains of the character would go a long way to improving his position. I've had the odd history of facing hordes of Lucas mains in almost every tournament I've ever been in out of state. I have no idea why, it's as if I attract them. Phoenix Alpha has shown some impressive wins before in Texas and every time I play him (I've played him in all but one of the tournaments I've attended in Texas), he gets a little better. Last time I saw him, he handily defeated Fogo in bracket and placed top 8 I believe at that event.
I don't think I even need to really talk about his downsides. We all know about his recovery and grabs right now, we don't really need to go into it more.
People sometimes underestimate Lucas. He's a high risk, high reward outlet for players to turn to and if you are the type of person who likes to read opponents and punish with devastating attacks (i.e. the kind of guy who tries to Fsmash with Snake after every dthrow), then you've got a friend in Lucas. His massive hit boxes (Read: Usmash), allow him a bit of leeway in prediction that is made up by the sheer size of the attacks coming your way. Unfortunately, he isn't very safe with many of these attacks, but he has a great setup with his fsmash out of jab lock. A good Lucas can go far, and I still believe he is better than Ness, but that's just me. Most people don't agree with this line of thinking, but he has such great mobility, nair being an especially awesome move. B reversing is awesome with Lucas, though not exactly necessary to doing well with him. His tournament placements leave much to be desired, but he does outstandingly well in low tier tournaments, more than enough to justify his current placement on he tier list.
Overall, I would say he doesn't need to go down or up. He's just about right where he should be in the current tournament environment. More skilled mains of the character would go a long way to improving his position. I've had the odd history of facing hordes of Lucas mains in almost every tournament I've ever been in out of state. I have no idea why, it's as if I attract them. Phoenix Alpha has shown some impressive wins before in Texas and every time I play him (I've played him in all but one of the tournaments I've attended in Texas), he gets a little better. Last time I saw him, he handily defeated Fogo in bracket and placed top 8 I believe at that event.
I don't think I even need to really talk about his downsides. We all know about his recovery and grabs right now, we don't really need to go into it more.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
An interesting thing to note: Lucas's pivot grab reduces the amount of lag afterwards. It makes the grab...surprisingly effective.
I have either the best or 2nd best Lucas main in the country (Galeon) and have him play frequently. Lucas can be a scary character.
His sh nair can eat medium-large character's shields for breakfast. SH nair auto-cancels and can go into jab combo to basically pierce the shield. SH Fair is a good quick attack with decent knockback. You can FH it if you don't want to have landing lag.
The one thing that is incredibly deceptive about Lucas is his kill potential. It really...isn't that good aside from 3 moves (His smashes). His uair is considerably weaker than Ness's, and it won't kill Pikachu until ~160%. His fair will probably kill Pika at around 145% near the edge, much like his D-throw. His F-tilt will kill around 135-140%. Now his smash attacks are absurd. U-smash killing at 75-80%, F-smash killing at 100%, and D-smash killing at 120%. However, avoid those and Lucas won't be killing for a long while.
Lucas has really nice tech reads. If he FH dairs you and you miss the tech at around 60%, you can D-tilt locked to death (U-smash at the end or charged F-smash). If you tech forward, he can SH fair you away. If you tech behind him, I think he gets a free grab. It is slightly ridiculous what Lucas can do. He is also less susceptible to grab release BS since he slides farther than Ness. Less characters can re-grab, but most still get a free attack. However, it is much harder to execute those attacks.
His camp is mediocre at best. His PK Fire walls are easily power-shieldable. B-reversing just puts him in a corner to abuse his off-stage game (Which I will get into later). The only time he can freely throw out PK Thunder is when the opponent is above him. It is too slow to really mindgame, but it can hit people off the level and start edgeguarding strings with fair, PK Fire, or another PK Thunder (Or jump off bair if you are crazy).
His off stage game isn't that bad. Yes he is gimpable, but only by a few characters (Lucas, Ness, Pikachu [uair footstool], and MK are basically it). His PKT won't disappear if you hit it, so you actually have to hit Lucas to edgeguard him. The PKT moves slower so you will have a little more time to react compared to Ness's. INTERESTING FACT! Lucas's tether has a hurtbox...the only one in the game that does. If he is dangling on his rope snake it can get hurt (I have D-tilted it, Nick Riddle has D-smashed it). It is unfortunate and that makes the rope snake only viable for edge-hogging or quick get-ups.
I actually know a lot about this character, so feel free to ask :D
I have either the best or 2nd best Lucas main in the country (Galeon) and have him play frequently. Lucas can be a scary character.
His sh nair can eat medium-large character's shields for breakfast. SH nair auto-cancels and can go into jab combo to basically pierce the shield. SH Fair is a good quick attack with decent knockback. You can FH it if you don't want to have landing lag.
The one thing that is incredibly deceptive about Lucas is his kill potential. It really...isn't that good aside from 3 moves (His smashes). His uair is considerably weaker than Ness's, and it won't kill Pikachu until ~160%. His fair will probably kill Pika at around 145% near the edge, much like his D-throw. His F-tilt will kill around 135-140%. Now his smash attacks are absurd. U-smash killing at 75-80%, F-smash killing at 100%, and D-smash killing at 120%. However, avoid those and Lucas won't be killing for a long while.
Lucas has really nice tech reads. If he FH dairs you and you miss the tech at around 60%, you can D-tilt locked to death (U-smash at the end or charged F-smash). If you tech forward, he can SH fair you away. If you tech behind him, I think he gets a free grab. It is slightly ridiculous what Lucas can do. He is also less susceptible to grab release BS since he slides farther than Ness. Less characters can re-grab, but most still get a free attack. However, it is much harder to execute those attacks.
His camp is mediocre at best. His PK Fire walls are easily power-shieldable. B-reversing just puts him in a corner to abuse his off-stage game (Which I will get into later). The only time he can freely throw out PK Thunder is when the opponent is above him. It is too slow to really mindgame, but it can hit people off the level and start edgeguarding strings with fair, PK Fire, or another PK Thunder (Or jump off bair if you are crazy).
His off stage game isn't that bad. Yes he is gimpable, but only by a few characters (Lucas, Ness, Pikachu [uair footstool], and MK are basically it). His PKT won't disappear if you hit it, so you actually have to hit Lucas to edgeguard him. The PKT moves slower so you will have a little more time to react compared to Ness's. INTERESTING FACT! Lucas's tether has a hurtbox...the only one in the game that does. If he is dangling on his rope snake it can get hurt (I have D-tilted it, Nick Riddle has D-smashed it). It is unfortunate and that makes the rope snake only viable for edge-hogging or quick get-ups.
I actually know a lot about this character, so feel free to ask :D
Any decent matchups in the higher tiers?
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
You seem to have forgotten wind hitbox gimps. I've gimped Lucas mains rather easily with Suck up, but just hitting them with the wind instead of eating them. It works with DDD and Kirby. G&W Uair works just as well. You can make his PK Thunder disappear by hitting it. You simply need to sweet spot the head of it. I've actually managed to do that THROUGH HIS BODY without hitting him before as Jigglypuff with her fair. Squirtle and Mario can also just hit him with Water to push him into his Thunder or under it, screwing his recovery as well. Mario also has cape.
T-block
B2B TST
Lucas' recovery isn't bad in that it's easily gimpable. It's just that any character that can follow Lucas off-stage, or with a strong on-stage edgeguarding game can put a lot of damage on him before he makes it back. Even then, Zap Jump and Magnet Pull can still vary his return path enough to make it back safely if he has room. Lucas also has high aerial mobility, with the 10th best top air speed and the 4th best acceleration, and he maintains a lot of air control even after PKT2, so aiming high onto the stage to avoid the edgehog is a fine option that may let you maneuver around your opponent. All in all, it's actually a good recovery.
Lucas has trouble killing though. He's got ridiculous power on his smashes, but he doesn't actually have reliable kill moves until f-tilt and f-air start killing (usually not until past 160%). The smashes are strong but are difficult to land outside of a d-tilt lock. D-throw can work, killing lighter characters at around 150%, but that requires getting a grab, and his grab game is... not great. Pivot grab has a lot less cooldown, to the point where it's usable, but that means his grab game tends to be more limited to defensive play.
Other than that, his air game/ground game is actually pretty solid. Fast jab (frame 2) and fast f-tilt (frame 6) are really nice when combined with a n-air and f-air that autocancel, along with that aerial mobility. D-air also autocancels out of a full hop and has a huge hitbox. D-tilt hits frame 3 and has surprising range.
I'm pretty sure his hardest matchup is Snake. His trouble landing kill moves hurts a lot more, with f-tilt/f-air not killing until like... past 200%. Meanwhile, Snake has no trouble killing, with u-tilt making it hard to approach with aerials, along with a setup in grab release > u-tilt. Grenades make it trickier to apply that shield pressure that Lucas is so good at. I'm also convinced he does all right against Diddy. Probably not even, but certainly not unwinnable, since he can use bananas really well.
Lucas has trouble killing though. He's got ridiculous power on his smashes, but he doesn't actually have reliable kill moves until f-tilt and f-air start killing (usually not until past 160%). The smashes are strong but are difficult to land outside of a d-tilt lock. D-throw can work, killing lighter characters at around 150%, but that requires getting a grab, and his grab game is... not great. Pivot grab has a lot less cooldown, to the point where it's usable, but that means his grab game tends to be more limited to defensive play.
Other than that, his air game/ground game is actually pretty solid. Fast jab (frame 2) and fast f-tilt (frame 6) are really nice when combined with a n-air and f-air that autocancel, along with that aerial mobility. D-air also autocancels out of a full hop and has a huge hitbox. D-tilt hits frame 3 and has surprising range.
I'm pretty sure his hardest matchup is Snake. His trouble landing kill moves hurts a lot more, with f-tilt/f-air not killing until like... past 200%. Meanwhile, Snake has no trouble killing, with u-tilt making it hard to approach with aerials, along with a setup in grab release > u-tilt. Grenades make it trickier to apply that shield pressure that Lucas is so good at. I'm also convinced he does all right against Diddy. Probably not even, but certainly not unwinnable, since he can use bananas really well.
and DK just doesn't give a **** and jumps off with b.airs
Lucas is my low tier so i can add some other points of interests.
Zap Jump glitch is pretty pro. You just PK Fire frames before doublejumping and you can go out the screen depending on timing. Its an additional recovery tool that can come in handy. sometimes i use it to recover if i'm already very high, then Magnetpull back just to be sexy (and safe, if you're high enough)
D.air racks up insane percent, and in addition to Jab and grab mixups after, you can often just jab then D.air again and lock them down as you pass over to their blind side.
all this throws are basically equally strong, so his best KO option is obviously whichever death zone is closest, but since like t-block pointed out its defensively used tendendy, its best done immediately hopefully to their latet DI (since his side throws are pretty fast)
He has one of the best pummels in the game too.
if only his grab was good.
d.throw-uptilt legit combos at low percent
its you can land an autocanceled UpAir, that also opens up tons of combo options, but his UpAir is usually best used rising with his DJ to catch airborne oponents off guard.
PK Thunder's edgeguard potential, i rarely see. you can combo off the tail repeatedly for amazing damage. I'm talking 20-30+%. There's definitely an art to whipping it, greatly different from ness's since the head of lucas's isn't as sensitive to interrupt the combo. (the head obviously ends the PK thunder)
he doens't kill as early as easily as Ness's b.throw, but i think he has alot of great tools to bully people around then baiting them like with f.tilt.
i dont personally see why ness is any better.
Lucas is my low tier so i can add some other points of interests.
Zap Jump glitch is pretty pro. You just PK Fire frames before doublejumping and you can go out the screen depending on timing. Its an additional recovery tool that can come in handy. sometimes i use it to recover if i'm already very high, then Magnetpull back just to be sexy (and safe, if you're high enough)
D.air racks up insane percent, and in addition to Jab and grab mixups after, you can often just jab then D.air again and lock them down as you pass over to their blind side.
all this throws are basically equally strong, so his best KO option is obviously whichever death zone is closest, but since like t-block pointed out its defensively used tendendy, its best done immediately hopefully to their latet DI (since his side throws are pretty fast)
He has one of the best pummels in the game too.
if only his grab was good.
d.throw-uptilt legit combos at low percent
its you can land an autocanceled UpAir, that also opens up tons of combo options, but his UpAir is usually best used rising with his DJ to catch airborne oponents off guard.
PK Thunder's edgeguard potential, i rarely see. you can combo off the tail repeatedly for amazing damage. I'm talking 20-30+%. There's definitely an art to whipping it, greatly different from ness's since the head of lucas's isn't as sensitive to interrupt the combo. (the head obviously ends the PK thunder)
he doens't kill as early as easily as Ness's b.throw, but i think he has alot of great tools to bully people around then baiting them like with f.tilt.
i dont personally see why ness is any better.
MetalMusicMan
Sleepwalk our lives away.
For anyone who has never seen a good Lucas play, FAE is probably the best Lucas out there. Watch this whole video, you'll probably be glad you did:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpt3ezOQWVY
I think Lucas is a very solid character who is under rated and under used, likely because of his bad matchups with DK, Marth, etc. due to that stupid ground-break grab release mechanic. Short of that though, he's very capable. FAE actually recently lost to Ripple's DK in tournament, but even with that cargo-carry>d-smash 0-death combo, the matches were still very close.
His pivot grab is very good and his jab can mixup into tilts or aerials. He has a lot of other fantastic mixups that make him incredibly hard to read, and by combining Zap-jump and psi-magnet mobility boosts, he can be extremely difficult to catch. His multi-hit moves give him great tech reads and punishes, and his recovery is difficult to gimp, more so when mixed up correctly.
Psi-magnet heals are INSANE and he can actually still collect a heal after dropping the psi-magnet and ROLLING AWAY. That is to say, it absorbs when the psi-magnet graphic is no longer out and he is in the middle of a roll animation. It's ********.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gpt3ezOQWVY
I think Lucas is a very solid character who is under rated and under used, likely because of his bad matchups with DK, Marth, etc. due to that stupid ground-break grab release mechanic. Short of that though, he's very capable. FAE actually recently lost to Ripple's DK in tournament, but even with that cargo-carry>d-smash 0-death combo, the matches were still very close.
His pivot grab is very good and his jab can mixup into tilts or aerials. He has a lot of other fantastic mixups that make him incredibly hard to read, and by combining Zap-jump and psi-magnet mobility boosts, he can be extremely difficult to catch. His multi-hit moves give him great tech reads and punishes, and his recovery is difficult to gimp, more so when mixed up correctly.
Psi-magnet heals are INSANE and he can actually still collect a heal after dropping the psi-magnet and ROLLING AWAY. That is to say, it absorbs when the psi-magnet graphic is no longer out and he is in the middle of a roll animation. It's ********.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Lucas MK is probably 60:40 MK. Close up they are pretty even, offstage Lucas gets destroyed. MK dies really early and Lucas can Punish Nado with F-smash.
Snake is Lucas's 2nd worst MU (Worst being DK). Grab release U-tilt is legit, as is Grab release F-tilt. Lucas's saving grace in this MU is his edgeguarding. With bair, PK Fire, and Magnet, he can gimp Snake sometimes. However, Lucas's decent kill potential with the smashes is basically eliminated because of his weight. Snake has a high damage output and grenades put Lucas in awkward situations.
Diddy and D3 I don't know much about...
IC vs Lucas is probably 55:45 IC. Lucas separates them really well and is a great nana killer. Lucas also flies out of the IC grabs weird, so it is really difficult to CG him with F-throw and B-throw. PK Thunder can separate them if they are in the air, and nair will when they are on the ground. U-smash charging when nana is running at popo is funny.
Snake is Lucas's 2nd worst MU (Worst being DK). Grab release U-tilt is legit, as is Grab release F-tilt. Lucas's saving grace in this MU is his edgeguarding. With bair, PK Fire, and Magnet, he can gimp Snake sometimes. However, Lucas's decent kill potential with the smashes is basically eliminated because of his weight. Snake has a high damage output and grenades put Lucas in awkward situations.
Diddy and D3 I don't know much about...
IC vs Lucas is probably 55:45 IC. Lucas separates them really well and is a great nana killer. Lucas also flies out of the IC grabs weird, so it is really difficult to CG him with F-throw and B-throw. PK Thunder can separate them if they are in the air, and nair will when they are on the ground. U-smash charging when nana is running at popo is funny.
I don't disagree with any advantages listed for Lucas so far really, but I always just have to think about Lucas. How is this guy supposed to approach?
Air to air, any character with actually good aerials easily beats out Lucas, and it's not like his aerials have any properties that let him challenge the actually good grounded defenders (like Marth). As G&W, it's just braindead. Lucas can't jump at me or else I'll just jump too and end that plan. If I don't have time, I just up special and beat everything easily. Lucas doesn't really have good tools to deal with people jumping at him other than his pivot grab either so he just has to stress a lot about the people who break their X or Y buttons when playing.
On the ground, Lucas doesn't seem to do much better when he's the one going at his opponent. Pk Fire is the easiest projectile to powershield ever. His jab and tilts are pretty decent, but he has to get pretty close to make use of that. The nature of his grab makes it a decent grab overall, but it's pretty much limited to defense. If the opponent just runs from him and keeps throwing stuff out to keep him away, how does Lucas win? I really just can't see it and haven't seen it.
Lucas also has the worst time with grab release out of everyone. Everything that works against Ness also works against Lucas, contrary to some rumors. However, Lucas also has a bad air break unlike Ness. That means that, if Lucas air breaks, a lot of characters get follow ups there. Ness's "out" to what would be horrible in a lot of match-ups is just another path to pain for Lucas. I'm pretty sure really huge swaths of the cast get really nasty traps on Lucas since any grab release from him is punishable, but no one has explored it all that well because Lucas isn't dangerous enough to warrant the effort. If Lucas ever starts to really rise, I'd expect a deep exploration of this stuff to throw him right back down.
I don't think at the end of the day he's horrible or anything, but he's a clear low tier, and among low tiers, I just can't see him as better than Jigglypuff, Yoshi, or Link. Middle of low tier seems about right for him; he just fits right into this crowd. Low tiers aren't horrible in this game; they just aren't as good as most of the rest of the cast.
Air to air, any character with actually good aerials easily beats out Lucas, and it's not like his aerials have any properties that let him challenge the actually good grounded defenders (like Marth). As G&W, it's just braindead. Lucas can't jump at me or else I'll just jump too and end that plan. If I don't have time, I just up special and beat everything easily. Lucas doesn't really have good tools to deal with people jumping at him other than his pivot grab either so he just has to stress a lot about the people who break their X or Y buttons when playing.
On the ground, Lucas doesn't seem to do much better when he's the one going at his opponent. Pk Fire is the easiest projectile to powershield ever. His jab and tilts are pretty decent, but he has to get pretty close to make use of that. The nature of his grab makes it a decent grab overall, but it's pretty much limited to defense. If the opponent just runs from him and keeps throwing stuff out to keep him away, how does Lucas win? I really just can't see it and haven't seen it.
Lucas also has the worst time with grab release out of everyone. Everything that works against Ness also works against Lucas, contrary to some rumors. However, Lucas also has a bad air break unlike Ness. That means that, if Lucas air breaks, a lot of characters get follow ups there. Ness's "out" to what would be horrible in a lot of match-ups is just another path to pain for Lucas. I'm pretty sure really huge swaths of the cast get really nasty traps on Lucas since any grab release from him is punishable, but no one has explored it all that well because Lucas isn't dangerous enough to warrant the effort. If Lucas ever starts to really rise, I'd expect a deep exploration of this stuff to throw him right back down.
I don't think at the end of the day he's horrible or anything, but he's a clear low tier, and among low tiers, I just can't see him as better than Jigglypuff, Yoshi, or Link. Middle of low tier seems about right for him; he just fits right into this crowd. Low tiers aren't horrible in this game; they just aren't as good as most of the rest of the cast.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
I definitely see Lucas as better than all those characeters, but so far, only two Lucas mains have really impressed me: Pink Fresh and NinjaLink. All the others are either too gimmicky or too unrefined.
I see potential for this character, and I respect offensive play. I think Lucas is more towards the top of low tier. He'd be bottom of mid, but then I remembered the GR on him. Pity.
I see potential for this character, and I respect offensive play. I think Lucas is more towards the top of low tier. He'd be bottom of mid, but then I remembered the GR on him. Pity.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Yeah, he is the best low-tier IMO.
I don't know I think it might be worse than that. I don't really know why other IC's can't CG lucas but I'm pretty consistent at it. I played FAE(who is the best lucas I've played) in the winners finals of a tournament I went to recently and 3-0ed him not really dropping many chaingrabs. Other ic's seem to have a problem with it :/. That match you saw me play against FAE in the crew battle was on a laggy tv and it messed up my cg lol. Future also beat him 3-0 in losers finals with ics even though fae beat him in winners. If ICs stay mid range with lucas then he has a lot of trouble with them.
I think Lucas does nicely against IC's. I watched a few matches of NinjaLink's Lucas vs. Lain's IC's at Pound 4 and NL was getting it in. He seems to have a lot of moves that separate IC's and his aerials can be followed with spaced f-tilts to make some of his aerial game setups a bit more safe.
I was also playing Pink Fresh's Lucas this week during one of my training sessions. I think this guy has the best mastery of this character; it's very fluid. He hit me with the d-air trip d-tilt bat combo a few times. Lucas also has a decent keep away game on stage and a "gtfo" n-air that helps when he's being pressured.
However, he's Lucas. There just won't be enough talented players using him because they're too busy sticking to solid top tier characters (which I respect).
I was also playing Pink Fresh's Lucas this week during one of my training sessions. I think this guy has the best mastery of this character; it's very fluid. He hit me with the d-air trip d-tilt bat combo a few times. Lucas also has a decent keep away game on stage and a "gtfo" n-air that helps when he's being pressured.
However, he's Lucas. There just won't be enough talented players using him because they're too busy sticking to solid top tier characters (which I respect).
Count
Smash Champion
Sorry that I keep talking about my character but I keep seeing "I don't know how X character does against Diddy"
I think Diddy beats Lucas 60-40, but my only experience against Lucas is against Tyr, who hasn't really been active for 6 months and didn't really know the Diddy Kong matchup. I know ADHD is really impressed with PF, though.
My reasoning behind Diddy winning is that its extremely difficult for Lucas to approach Diddy. With a banana in hand, a dair approach that ends up on either side of Diddy's shield a lot of times ends up eating a banana. When Lucas is maneuvering in air above Diddy it makes it difficult for him to find a safe attack or landing, especially with Diddy scotting around beneath him, which often gets Lucas punished.
However-this is probably how the matchup was played 9 months ago so somebody enlighten me if they know anything otherwise. That being said, I don't see how Lucas has the tools to beat or even go even with Diddy Kong. The matchup isn't unwinnable by any means though.
I think Diddy beats Lucas 60-40, but my only experience against Lucas is against Tyr, who hasn't really been active for 6 months and didn't really know the Diddy Kong matchup. I know ADHD is really impressed with PF, though.
My reasoning behind Diddy winning is that its extremely difficult for Lucas to approach Diddy. With a banana in hand, a dair approach that ends up on either side of Diddy's shield a lot of times ends up eating a banana. When Lucas is maneuvering in air above Diddy it makes it difficult for him to find a safe attack or landing, especially with Diddy scotting around beneath him, which often gets Lucas punished.
However-this is probably how the matchup was played 9 months ago so somebody enlighten me if they know anything otherwise. That being said, I don't see how Lucas has the tools to beat or even go even with Diddy Kong. The matchup isn't unwinnable by any means though.
NinjaLink has the only Lucas that doesn't make me laugh at the character.
Actually, NinjaLink's is pretty scary. -.-
Actually, NinjaLink's is pretty scary. -.-
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Does anyone specifically think Lucas is still too low, or currently too high? If you look at his tournament placing right now, they are very bad. Do you find that to be representative of how good he is, or that perhaps his bad matchups are just so common that he can't get anywhere in tournament, despite being decent against much of the cast. I'm curious what the overall opinion on that is, since I hadn't really discussed his current placings much in my post earlier.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Lucas should stay in literally the same spot. Bowser deserves to go below him and Ike deserves to go above him. Nothing else should really change. No other current LT besides Ike is going above him (For lucas is the 2nd most deserving character to get out of LT) and no character above him aside from Bowser is going below him.
T-block
B2B TST
He's in a pretty good spot. I do think Yoshi could probably move above him as well, but apart from Ike and Yoshi, he's better than every other character he's above atm imo.
Better than Bowser, but worse than Yoshi and Ike. The best character of low tier.
I think Lucas has potential to move up higher, if Ninjalink got better or someone else came out, they could do it. I'm not sure if he has that potential but I am not close minded as to say it can't happen. Lucas is hard to judge, but IMO he hasn't shown enough to break out of low tier.
Love some of the combos he can dish out though.
I think Lucas has potential to move up higher, if Ninjalink got better or someone else came out, they could do it. I'm not sure if he has that potential but I am not close minded as to say it can't happen. Lucas is hard to judge, but IMO he hasn't shown enough to break out of low tier.
Love some of the combos he can dish out though.
I agree, hence he will probably drop one or two spots.
I think he isn't viable to be used as a main(maybe MK second option? lol). He is countered by important characters and doesn't counter any. Therefore, he might not even be a choice as a second character.
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
The OP scares me.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Please note Lucas Boards, that I would like to have participated more in this discussion, but I was away at MLG, where Galleon impressed me. I'm interested on what you all think about Lucas.
gaaaaah why did my brother have to break my laptop ;_______; I want to input a looooooot but as usual i have bad luck.
Also OP is scary ;s but i will post something very soon.
and nice Pierce ^^ its k. Actually i thought it was gonna be bad but it wasnt at all really.
Also OP is scary ;s but i will post something very soon.
and nice Pierce ^^ its k. Actually i thought it was gonna be bad but it wasnt at all really.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
My bby Galeon still plays!?! I thought he only did doubles D:
SH nair autocancels w/ a 0 frame advantage [+7 on shield drop]. If you land behind the opponent and they keep holding shield you can turn around down tilt, which has a -3 advantage on shield [+4 on shield drop] and immediately jab [frame 2]. really good for shield pokes.
You can SH fair a shield and still autocancel. Actually, SH fair is safe on shield, beside a few characters [MK, Marth, a few others]. The only reason SH fair isn't safe agasint their shields is because they can Up-B OoS. Autocancelled SH fair is -9 shield advantage, w/ a -2 with shield drop. Range is decent + fairly good shield knockback.
Yup, yup. that is entirely correct.
this is also true.
Lucas shouldn't really be leaving the stage to edgeguard lol. but yes, PK thunder is ridiculous for edgeguarding.
Pit, Lucas, MK. those are really the only ones that should gimp Lucas occassionally, if at all.
what's decent? lol.
60:40 for MK is decent so that's one
55:45 falco
50:50 IC's imo.
45:55 Pika imo.
55:45 Oli
Lucas should not have to use PKT2. almost ever. His second jump + tether + magnet pull is enough.
His hardest MU is definitely Snake. he just... camps. and ***** all approaches. and... never dies. Grab release utilt isn't guaranteed. Though lately, I'm beginning to think it's Marth again, and Snake is becoming easier.
sighhh. don't blow up his head, because he'll be content with how he plays now. give him something to shoot for.
DK isn't that bad. it's really hard for dk to get grabs in that MU.
He can cancel magnet with jump and roll. You can literally go from healing to attacking in a few frames [depending on aerial of choice] It makes him a beast in teams, since he heals 2x the amount of damage the move does.
Lucas destroys MK while he's offstage as well.
DK isn't his worst MU at all.
Diddy is 60:40
DDD... Idk. My views on it change too often. wel, that's not true. It's even when Lucas has the lead. and like.... freaking 80:20 when DDD has the lead.
I think it's even! :D
Same way wario approaches.
He'll trade for the most part if that's your plan, orrr he can just bait with aerial mobility.
He has a really solid/fluid air to ground game.
oh. and dash attack will probably beat out/trade with any move thrown out.
They have 10 frames.
the distance Lucas slides away is greater than Snake's utilt range/MK's Dsmash range. Actually, to give you an accurate idea of how far he slides, He slides into Marth's tipper Fsmash range.
Not much can be done.
also, grabbing lucas is not easy at all. Many, [in my area at least] refer to him as the wario of low tiers.
top if low tier imo.
:D
I'm getting better. Will try to do well at MLG DC.
NL gets grabbed too often.
You should get up vids of our set :D
Watch me v Meep.
I ultimately lose [lol] but look at the amount of times I get grabbed.
I are hurt.
Well, I can give a pretty in depth analysis of the character.
I'll try to do well at MLG DC, and see what everyone thinks of the character.
Tokaio
Smash Journeyman
Lucas' recovery is amazing. He really should not be getting gimped considering he has a massive horizontal and vertical recovery, with a tether. The best thing you can do against his recovery is to try and predict where the Zap Jump can go, but even so, the Lucas can mix it up by B-sticking, or actually using PKT2. I rarely ever use PKT2 to recover, unless I lost my double jump for some weird reason.
Lucas can rack damage pretty quickly. He has alot of combos in his arsenal. I believe Dair -> Dair is a guaranteed combo at low percents. Dair gives you 20% of damage at fresh, so that gives you a whopping 40%. Jab is also a good follow-up, as it comes out on Frame 2. He also has a Dtilt lock, and ALOT of setups to fully abuse its potential. Most well-known setup is Dair. More here.
Air game would be much better if he actually had some range on his aerials. It's a shame because his aerials are amazing. Nair can just eat away at your shield, Dair is a damage racker, and can follow up into many moves, Fair has a nice combo into jab, and can even sometimes lead to a jab lock at mid percents, etc. All of our aerials autocancel except for Bair, which no one really uses anyway lol.
Ground game is decent, but again, a little more range wouldn't hurt. His jab and Ftilt are amazing, because they come out really quickly. Dtilt has good range, and can cause tripping, which can lead to an F-smash. His smashes are really powerful, and can kill really early if landed.
The issue for Lucas is a result of his bad range, approaching. He has no reliable approaches. All you need is to shield against Lucas. His grab is laggy, and is only to be used defensively by pivoting, and all of his aerials, except for Nair, which has absolutely no range, shouldn't be any threat to your shield. He has a few tricks that can throw you off, but once you figure those out, you should be able to read him like a book.
Killing is surprisingly hard for Lucas. He rarely ever kills with a smash, despite how powerful they are because they are very predictable. Fsmash is probably our most reliable smash, as it is quick and powerful, but it rarely ever hits unless it was followed out of a lock. I usually kill with Ftilt, Fair, and D-throw, which kill at around 150%.
He can camp alot with Wavebounced PKF, but it really shouldn't be a threat. It's irritating, but you can powershield and easily approach him.
His gimping ability is pretty decent. PK Thunder, if used right, can send you toward the blastzone pretty well. PK Freeze has nice horizontal range too. He has two spikes, but one is weak, and the other awkward to pull off, so those shouldn't be too much of a threat.
Grab releases. They're annoying.
He's pretty versatile, stage-wise. His only bad stages are those that decide to be mean and gimp him, like Yoshi's Island (inb4tblock). But, that shouldn't be a problem because we have Zap Jump.
Best top tier match-up is IC's/D3 imo. Worst would be either Snake or Marth. Snake, if grab release "infinite" is banned.
Overall placement: 3rd best in Low Tier, below Ike and Yoshi, even with Mario imo.
Lucas can rack damage pretty quickly. He has alot of combos in his arsenal. I believe Dair -> Dair is a guaranteed combo at low percents. Dair gives you 20% of damage at fresh, so that gives you a whopping 40%. Jab is also a good follow-up, as it comes out on Frame 2. He also has a Dtilt lock, and ALOT of setups to fully abuse its potential. Most well-known setup is Dair. More here.
Air game would be much better if he actually had some range on his aerials. It's a shame because his aerials are amazing. Nair can just eat away at your shield, Dair is a damage racker, and can follow up into many moves, Fair has a nice combo into jab, and can even sometimes lead to a jab lock at mid percents, etc. All of our aerials autocancel except for Bair, which no one really uses anyway lol.
Ground game is decent, but again, a little more range wouldn't hurt. His jab and Ftilt are amazing, because they come out really quickly. Dtilt has good range, and can cause tripping, which can lead to an F-smash. His smashes are really powerful, and can kill really early if landed.
The issue for Lucas is a result of his bad range, approaching. He has no reliable approaches. All you need is to shield against Lucas. His grab is laggy, and is only to be used defensively by pivoting, and all of his aerials, except for Nair, which has absolutely no range, shouldn't be any threat to your shield. He has a few tricks that can throw you off, but once you figure those out, you should be able to read him like a book.
Killing is surprisingly hard for Lucas. He rarely ever kills with a smash, despite how powerful they are because they are very predictable. Fsmash is probably our most reliable smash, as it is quick and powerful, but it rarely ever hits unless it was followed out of a lock. I usually kill with Ftilt, Fair, and D-throw, which kill at around 150%.
He can camp alot with Wavebounced PKF, but it really shouldn't be a threat. It's irritating, but you can powershield and easily approach him.
His gimping ability is pretty decent. PK Thunder, if used right, can send you toward the blastzone pretty well. PK Freeze has nice horizontal range too. He has two spikes, but one is weak, and the other awkward to pull off, so those shouldn't be too much of a threat.
Grab releases. They're annoying.
He's pretty versatile, stage-wise. His only bad stages are those that decide to be mean and gimp him, like Yoshi's Island (inb4tblock). But, that shouldn't be a problem because we have Zap Jump.
Best top tier match-up is IC's/D3 imo. Worst would be either Snake or Marth. Snake, if grab release "infinite" is banned.
Overall placement: 3rd best in Low Tier, below Ike and Yoshi, even with Mario imo.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
can i still post here :$
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
Yes, lol. Anyone can post here.
Really? I though we get ***** by DDDs (at least thats what i thought)
Coney
Smash Master
ddd/lucas is 6-4
lucas racks up damage on ddd quick, and you might be able to get in an fsmash or something to kill early, but it's hard otherwise. basically what inevitably happens is ddd pressures lucas to the ledge, powershielding pk fires and retreats until lucas hits the edge and literally has nowhere left to run. i don't know how he can get around ddd.
if ddd gets the lead, it's extreeemely hard for lucas to do anything. which means lucas isn't allowed to die first. but he's light and gimpable, while ddd is fat and (except by like three characters) ungimpable. it's rough.
also it's unfair to call pink fresh the best lucas as i haven't played galeon but i'll just go ahead and say pink fresh is the best lucas
lucas racks up damage on ddd quick, and you might be able to get in an fsmash or something to kill early, but it's hard otherwise. basically what inevitably happens is ddd pressures lucas to the ledge, powershielding pk fires and retreats until lucas hits the edge and literally has nowhere left to run. i don't know how he can get around ddd.
if ddd gets the lead, it's extreeemely hard for lucas to do anything. which means lucas isn't allowed to die first. but he's light and gimpable, while ddd is fat and (except by like three characters) ungimpable. it's rough.
also it's unfair to call pink fresh the best lucas as i haven't played galeon but i'll just go ahead and say pink fresh is the best lucas
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
Man, I saw Galeon play. I don't even know any more...
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
rPSIvysaur
[ɑɹsaɪ]
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2009
- Messages
- 16,415
Singles. His Lucas... it's just so sexy. SOoooooo sexy.
~Pink Fresh~
Smash Master
Yup!
he's really goooddddd.
Always been my competition. Glad he's still here to keep pushing me to become better.
he's really goooddddd.
Always been my competition. Glad he's still here to keep pushing me to become better.
Neon Ness
Designated Procrastinator
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2008
- Messages
- 3,631
Lol I'm glad someone else thinks this too -.-
Never realized how horrible this fight is until recently. And D3 and Snake just... live way too long.
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Galeon was at MLG Columbus. He lost to Kel and Vinnie...unfortunate.
BTW, pikachu can gimp lucas with uair footstool repeat. We can make you go down low enough that you can't reach the edge. I've done if a few times. 55:45 Pikachu.
BTW, pikachu can gimp lucas with uair footstool repeat. We can make you go down low enough that you can't reach the edge. I've done if a few times. 55:45 Pikachu.