Bowser vs Duck Hunt (and various campers)

[ZeroBlindDragon]

Today (September 23), Japan had its first Super Smash Bros. 3DS tournament.

Coral, a Bowser player, made it to Top 8 but was defeated in Quarterfinals by Aile, a Duck Hunt player.

Here's the set. The second match (on Rainbow Road) is the one you'd want to check out the most.

As you can see, Duck Hunt solidly camped Bowser for most of the set.

How are we going to deal with this?

 

[Hokori]

Thanks for sharing, I'll be moving this to the Video Thread soon.

Honestly, the Bowser player could have won that first match, but he missed some opportunities to finish the DHD player off (don't feel like analyzing the whole match at the moment, sorry).

As for how we'll be dealing with it, we will have no surefire way to handle a slew of projectiles coming our way. That's just how it's going to be and it's one of Bowser's shortcomings. We'll be getting camped and we don't have the best means of approaching. Not saying that every match will be hell though, as we can still have some success with patient play, getting reads on any patterns (how they use their projectiles), and punishing effectively. Can't play too lax - running up and shielding just to end up rolling away will not stop them from camping, but at the same time, can't get too reckless for whatever reason (often frustration) - can lead to predictable approaches that will often get punished.

To sum it up, patience and smart play - that's what we'll need. I don't have the full game myself, so I haven't been able to truly familiarize myself with the new Bowser in MUs like these, but I know that they're still winnable. Sure, they'll be a drag to deal with, but we can handle it.

Nice to see a match that will reflect how the MU will be looking (at the beginning phases at least) for the most part though.

 

[MrEh]

That Bowser player, while probably quite good, clearly never used Bowser that much in the past installments.

There where many holes where he could have ran up punished Duckhunt's landings with Fortress or something. Instead he would just run up, shield, and do nothing.


The game is still new. The flow of the game still hasn't really been discovered yet. All in all this doesn't look nearly as bad as Falco and TLink used to be. (at least not yet...)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Honestly, this matchup is looking quite bad as of now.

"We can handle it" is not really a good counter-argument to a video that shows how the matchup works. Sure, the Bowser could've played better but he can't magically make options appear that aren't there and as things stand, Bowser seems to have no reliable option to deal with that kind of camping. So how are you actually going to handle it?

This isn't the only instance of a Bowser player struggling MASSIVLEY against DHD btw. Even CT Zero has lost against japanese DHD players online [although it wasn't this one] with Bowser and complained about how his projectiles make it almost impossible for Bowser to do just about anything. I can really only comment on this matchup based on what I've seen since I don't have this game yet but there are a couple of hints that tell us that DHD most likely has this matchup in his favor.

 

[MrEh]

That's the case with every camping character against Bowser though. He'll always lose to characters with tons of projectiles because he's huge.

The question is whether or not he can win these matchups if you play well, or if you're screwed because the matchup is 2-8 or something.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I will say that rage mechanics are Bowser's one saving grace in these situations, because eating a lot of projectiles is going to be an unfortunate reality in these MUs. Even with all of his buffs, Bowser is still going to have trouble getting in on good projectile campers. He'll at least be at a disadvantage in most of these MUs, but he might be able to win if he can live to 200% and kill at 100% or less, so Bowsers are simply going to have to go in with that mindset and make the most of their opportunities when they do get in.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

That's the case with every camping character against Bowser though. He'll always lose to characters with tons of projectiles because he's huge.

I'm not sure whether this will actually be the case in smash 4 though. With Bowsers improved speed and mobility it's not enough to have a lot of projectiles but you also need to be flexible while using them. I can like legit see Bowser having the advantage against a character like Samus or Link in this game.

DHD on the other hand not only has projectiles that are really freaking stupid for Bowser to deal with but he's also pretty mobile while throwing out **** like the can or his frisbee. That makes things a lot worse for Bowser.

 

[BSL]

effectively airdodging, knowing the matchup, and lots of jabs will probably do it.

i didn't see the bowser airdodge much, i noticed he could jab the clay disc, and it looked like he was trying to punish the projectiles, and getting hit. knowing what moves will work around the projectiles and where to airdodge will solve most problems.

dealing with this all will be a lot of work, but that's just how it is. it should be doable.

 

[Hokori]

Honestly, this matchup is looking quite bad as of now.

"We can handle it" is not really a good counter-argument to a video that shows how the matchup works. Sure, the Bowser could've played better but he can't magically make options appear that aren't there and as things stand, Bowser seems to have no reliable option to deal with that kind of camping. So how are you actually going to handle it?

The "We can handle it" bit wasn't really meant to serve as a counter-argument, honestly. More so, just me remaining optimistic, about having no -3/-4 type of MUs. The MU against DHD will definitely be a toughie, but I'm not going to rule it out as one that we'll never win just yet

 

[HeavyLobster]

Just remember to ban FD when playing DHD. The matchup shouldn't be as bad on some other stages. Hopefully one of Bowser's customs like the fireball makes things a bit easier.

 

[Yonder]

There is a couple other DH vs Bowser matches on Youtube also. Honestly, it looks bad for Bowser. He has 0 options for getting past his projectiles. Absolutely none. The dynamite in particular wrecks Bowser.

But when Bowser gets to DH...he wrecks him.

Of course, projectile spam is more effective than good close up game in the long run, as a Luigi main in Brawl suffered the hard way...

 

[Zigsta]

I watched this live last night and yeesh, was this ever painful. We should all take note that the can can be hit--Bowser dtilts it at one point. Overall this is a new opponent that will require playtime to get a real matchup sense. But obviously just running up and shielding is a horrible, horrible option.

Honestly the first thing I thought when I saw DHD revealed was he was gonna be really annoying for Bowser. He reminds me of Olimar in Brawl--capable of racking up tons of damage and great at running away and projectil-ing Bowser like crazy, but Bowser can be capable of coming back and hitting hard. As stated previously, rage is huge in this MU.

We'll need to test this extensively. Try moves of Bowser's against DHD's moves to see if any of ours trump his. In Brawl, Bowser's nair ALWAYS beat Olimar's upsmash, and it really opens up the MU. I bet there's a similar move that will work wonders here.

 

[MrEh]

We all know the answer guys.

We powershield everything, run up to his face, and Fortress.

#FrigginBowserMains

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

The Bowser player didn't seem to use Whirling Fortress as a movement option on the ground, relying on that helps get into enemies more easily. Wasn't that buffed also? I read that the shell portion blocks projectiles during this move.
I also saw that one of the UP B customs gives a high speed fortress that can be used to cover ground.

Off-topic: I have to say, at the beginning of that match, watching the Dog with a duck on his back running away and Bowser chasing after him was hilarious. It reminded me of Tom & Jerry.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I'm surprised no one is mentioning custom moves. Bowser has two different Fire breaths that could help him in these situations.

The fire ball custom could really help him apply pressure from a distance, especially since he can angle it, and it doesn't run out.

His third fire breath is also useful for clearing DHD's projectiles because it eats them upon use. It's a good way of being able to clear the way for a short while despite how long it takes to charge.

 

[Kidney Thief]

It's too early to know if custom moves will or won't be allowed in tournaments, but I think it would be interesting to know how Bowser's options would change

 

[ImaClubYou]

Can Fire Breath destroy the projectiles? At least Duck Hunts?

 

[Shök]

Another match against DHD. Anyone see any jabs? :/

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Can Fire Breath destroy the projectiles? At least Duck Hunts?

I'm not sure if the normal one can. I know the third one does for Mario's fireballs. It must be able to destroy DHD's.

 

[Zigsta]

Another match against DHD. Anyone see any jabs? :/

Not really the best example because SB only played a few games period prior to entering the tournament.

 

[Shök]

Not really the best example because SB only played a few games period prior to entering the tournament.

Ahhh, I see. Well, just felt like sharing.

 

[ImaClubYou]

I'm not sure if the normal one can. I know the third one does for Mario's fireballs. It must be able to destroy DHD's.

Interesting. If it's like that then Bowser has a great tool for tangible projectiles then. Even without costum moves, Bowsers Fire Breath is already incredibly good for different purposes.

He can jump in with Fire anticipating DHD throwing his side B and he can straight fire in his face.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Interesting. If it's like that then Bowser has a great tool for tangible projectiles then. Even without costum moves, Bowsers Fire Breath is already incredibly good for different purposes.

He can jump in with Fire anticipating DHD throwing his side B and he can straight fire in his face.

This. TBH, I've played several smart DHDs online and off but never lost. It's definitely a hard MU, but The Bowser in the OP missed a ton of opportunities to punish with Fire Breath. It's literally one of our best tools against DHD. It stuffs all of his special projectiles.

Also F-tilt. Our F-tilt is disjointed, or else the tip of his fist is invincible. Haven't figured out which yet. Basically pressure him with our new speed and literally punch through most of his close combat attacks.

Also powershield everything+Fortress. Ty Mr.Eh ilu bby.

I wish I had a recording system but I'm going to a Project M/Smash 4 tourney in November so I hope to have some quality Bowser vids then and against DHDs in the area.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Can Fire Breath destroy the projectiles? At least Duck Hunts?

Yes, it destroys most projectiles and even has priority over dash-like attacks, such as Little Mac's Neutral-b.

 

[-Kagato-]

Approaching from the air is a bad idea. TNT just gets knocked up into you and the landing lag from airdodging it before landing just lets DHD punish your approach.

Stick to the ground.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

Don't have much experience vs Dhd (at least good ones) but I can give you all some tips to fight campers in general. As a rule of thumb, but as has been mentioned already, raining fire on fragile ranged characters is good to go. But something which has yet to be mentioned is another, very important strategy: Distance and pressure.

I've had my fair share of experience on FG and fought quite a few Robins, Megamans and Links. They're different characters but the fundamentals for our ranged enemies remains roughly consistent. As mentioned, distance and pressure is key. Again, like my Mac post, I'll divide this as appropriate to make it more readable for all of ye.

********

Zigsta in another thread mentioned it's best to stay in their faces, which is true but you need to do so with a few caveats. You need to keep near the enemy but not so close that you're staring right into their face (Less of course you're punching/kicking them, then by all means). Keep roughly 1/4 of a screen away from them, keep your shield up, and wait for an approach. This is the distance portion but the pressure comes into it's own.

Another quick tip is, if you're not confident with using fire to engage (certainly vs experienced opponents it won't work that often to start but definitely throughout fights there will be chances), a running shield (raising shield mid run as projectile is about to hit you) approach can help close the gap rapidly. Be wary however of getting so close as to let the enemy grapple you.

One theme shared by most of the ranged characters is this: A crappy air game.

Once the enemy whiffs, either rack up the % with fire or straight rush them and grab/koopa claw. Once they're in the air, jump up but try to wait for them to either waste a fair or to air dodge. Then smack them. Once they hit the ground, run straight up to them, shield, and once they recover, assuming they have done so in place, up-b them back into the air. Koopa Klaw is also your best friend here as most will try to shield once they see you right at them, and klaw doesn't care for shields.

Again remember to space yourself well. Not too far so they can blitz you to pieces with projectiles, but not too close that they can get off a smash or a juggle. This is very general advice but hopefully it helps some of you dedicated Koopa mains.

 

[Zigsta]

Played against some Duck Hunt the other day. One thing I tested that I don't think anyone's mentioned is you can jab the clay pigeons. This is a MUST since a lot of Bowsers just run in and shield the clay pigeon only to be grabbed by Duck Hunt.

I still need to play the MU a whole lot more to get a better feel for this. @MVD, Wi-Fi me!!

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Played against some Duck Hunt the other day. One thing I tested that I don't think anyone's mentioned is you can jab the clay pigeons. This is a MUST since a lot of Bowsers just run in and shield the clay pigeon only to be grabbed by Duck Hunt.

I still need to play the MU a whole lot more to get a better feel for this. @MVD, Wi-Fi me!!

It's been random for me on jab. When you jab it, it should just bounce away, but sometimes it continues to travel through your fist. I've had to time ftilts against it or auto-canceled fairs.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Bowser does terribly against his own kid too. It is really hard NOT to hit daddy with the Abandoned Clown Car.

 

[Mr. Bones]

Lol. Disciplining the kids has been pretty easy for me. You just have to play patiently as with all campy/disjointed characters. Fire breath stops the canon and the Mecha Koopa so I would space with it and the jabs.

 

[Netherfall]

You can also grab the Mecha Koopa before it reaches you if you're fast enough.

 

[Kuraudo]

I grab the Mecha Koopas all the time. It ticks T-block off. LOL

 

[Zigsta]

I grab the Mecha Koopas all the time. It ticks T-block off. LOL

T-block is playing Bowser Jr???

 

[Volimutt]

You can also grab the Mecha Koopa before it reaches you if you're fast enough.

Easy way to pick it up is to shield first then press to A to scoop it up. Cuz after it collides with your shield it harmlessly walks pass you for a few frames.

 

[Kuraudo]

T-block is playing Bowser Jr???

Bowser Jr. is his best character right now. But he also uses Greninja and is learning Lucario.

That and he mains Iggy.

 

[BSL]

After playing against more campy people, I gotta say shielding is a really good option. Airdodging isn't bad either, especially if you do it at the right height and land with fortress or klaw.

If/when customs are legal, just use dash klaw and they can't even run away. Dash klaw is so good.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Approaching from the air is a bad idea. TNT just gets knocked up into you and the landing lag from airdodging it before landing just lets DHD punish your approach.

Stick to the ground.

shorthop+airdodge into up-b.

 

[S_B]

After playing against more campy people, I gotta say shielding is a really good option. Airdodging isn't bad either, especially if you do it at the right height and land with fortress or klaw.

If/when customs are legal, just use dash klaw and they can't even run away. Dash klaw is so good.

I honestly doubt customs will ever really be legal. :\

 

[Zigsta]

shorthop+airdodge into up-b.

That worked in Brawl but airdodging into the ground has a lot more lag this time around.

 

[Hitman JT]

That worked in Brawl but airdodging into the ground has a lot more lag this time around.

Nope. For some reason Bowser can short hop + air dodge then land and use any of his special moves right away without the lag. REALLY helps to get in on them pesky campers. Try it out.