Brawl will be as competitive of melee eventually!

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

To start off! Most competitive people are disappointed with Brawl ATM due to lack of technical skills! RIGHT?

What a lot of people don't realize is the fact it takes time for things to be found to make the game more technical! It took MANY years for a lot of things to be founded in melee and not a single month. May i add the fact that only japan and not many U.S. people own the game. So how can you just be like it's garbage no more wavedash or L-cancel! There is new things that i have seen already that is technical. It's gonna take a while but it will be more technical as the months/years go on and more competitive!

So it seems to me that the people that were the top players in the world are disappointed in the clean slate and the ones that were competitive but not among the top what so ever are happier and ya i understand....just a thought because i heard some people already are gonna quit playing due to this and that it BLASPHEMY!

P.S. - No hate replies please but serious ones

 

[Ichida]

People will adapt... hopefully they will eventually see Brawl as its own game and not a failed Melee 2.0. Then the competitive layer can truly be born.

 

[Yuna]

Why did it take years for some things to be found? Because they were well hidden. In a game where Sakurai went to great lengths to make everything simple to do, do you really think he'd include really obscure techniques that can't be found even after a month of testing?

The only things left should be glitches.

And why did it take us years? Because back then, we weren't very technical (or rather, "they" weren't as I wasn't around for the first couple of years). SSB64 was not an AT-fest. People weren't used to ATs and therefore didn't actively look for them.

They didn't know what to look for and how to look for them. Now we do.

 

[ArmedWolf001]

The fact that this is online will make a competitive community one way or another.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

Key word is eventually because when everyone has brawl it will take them 2 or 3 weeks to learn how to use their character effectively..see you all online

 

[garbage]

YOU SIR, WIN THE INTERNETTTtt

 

[Ti11erTheKi11er]

You do have a good point Yuna!

 

[Yuna]

The fact that this is online will make a competitive community one way or another.

So does Dead or Alive 4. Doesn't make it a very competitive fighter.

There are competitive communities for everything. Doesn't mean everything's competitively viable, especially not "as competitively viable as X-things". How viable something is not determined solely or even largely by the number of people who play it competitively.

 

[What's The Point]

Why did it take years for some things to be found? Because they were well hidden.

I don't know, dodging into the ground isn't really that obscure of a concept and unlikely thing to happen. But apparently it took a bit of time before people starting doing that regularly (Unsure of when wavedashing became a competitive norm).

The most important thing for competitive scenes are the scenes, not the game. If it has a good following, it will flourish. Brawl is the newer game, and using Melee's success (As a game and as a competitive scene) to boost it's beginning. So even if there isn't some new discovery down the road to reshape the metagame, the scene will most likely live on and grow.

 

[Sumenora]

well to start off my replay....

This is not melee 2.0.....

also....brawl is just as competive as melee was....just because melee techs are out dont make the game any less competive...in fact ..people already found adv techs for brawl which should be on a sticky on this fourm....so their are new techs to replace melee techs....in result make it competive on new level of play.

 

[Yuna]

I don't know, dodging into the ground isn't really that obscure of a concept and unlikely thing to happen. But apparently it took a bit of time before people starting doing that regularly (Unsure of when wavedashing became a competitive norm).

Wavedashing was discovered early on. They just didn't start using it regularly right away because back then, the community was still young and green on what constituted High Level and Competitive Play. The community back then is not in any way comparable to the community right now.

The most important thing for competitive scenes are the scenes, not the game. If it has a good following, it will flourish. Brawl is the newer game, and using Melee's success (As a game and as a competitive scene) to boost it's beginning. So even if there isn't some new discovery down the road to reshape the metagame, the scene will most likely live on and grow.

Just because a game is new does not mean it's better or that the scene will throw out the old one for it.

I present to you Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX. The GNT-scene loathed it and sticked with GNT4.

For a more competitively viable game, there's Tekken 4. The competitive scene loathed it and stuck with Tekken Tag and Tekken 3.

 

[fr0st2k]

Why did it take years for some things to be found? Because they were well hidden. In a game where Sakurai went to great lengths to make everything simple to do, do you really think he'd include really obscure techniques that can't be found even after a month of testing?

The only things left should be glitches.

And why did it take us years? Because back then, we weren't very technical (or rather, "they" weren't as I wasn't around for the first couple of years). SSB64 was not an AT-fest. People weren't used to ATs and therefore didn't actively look for them.

They didn't know what to look for and how to look for them. Now we do.

Dude .. brawl is a new game. you dont know what to look for!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU HAVE NO CLUE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you keep talking about elitism. This is it. Just because you grew up with melee, and helped make up rules for the competitive scene, you automatically KNOW everything about brawl just by playing it for 3 weeks?

YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

man, i can only take so much before i crack.

Seriously. The people who were "somebodies" in melee are now "nobodies" in brawl.

Youre opinion doesnt matter to anyone. The only possible thing that is important coming from a melee vets mouth is the way to develop the competitive scene.

i.e.

Look for "this". Don't rely too heavily on doing "this". Play a lot. Blah blah blah.

Don't talk to people like you understand Brawl. Like you know its more simple just because they changed some of the things from melee to make them easier. It just makes you look like a chump.

/harshness off

 

[hoopspr226]

Why did it take years for some things to be found? Because they were well hidden. In a game where Sakurai went to great lengths to make everything simple to do, do you really think he'd include really obscure techniques that can't be found even after a month of testing?

You could make the same statement about SSB64 and SSBM. On the surface, both games are highly accessible/user-friendly party games as well, and one would think Sakurai/the game designers wouldn't put anything overly advanced in those game either.

The chances that Brawl has obscure techniques is equal to the chances that Melee or 64 had them.

 

[fr0st2k]

Just because a game is new does not mean it's better or that the scene will throw out the old one for it.

You mean to say, "just because the new game comes out, doesnt mean we have to throw out our treasured and beloved melee." That scene youre talking about is the select group of tourney goers that had great times playing the game over the last 7 years. Its hard to let go, i know ... Change is never a fun thing to come across.

I mean .. i loved melee man, but i can let things go.

You're right though, it doesnt mean its better. But if you want to talk about the past. MANY people said that melee was too fast, too hard to get used to when it first came out.

ps. I KNOW that you realize brawl is a new game. I understand that, youre a smart enough guy to realize that. just wanted you to know that.

 

[Yuna]

You could make the same statement about SSB64 and SSBM. On the surface, both games are highly accessible/user-friendly party games as well, and one would think Sakurai/the game designers wouldn't put anything overly advanced in those game either.

The chances that Brawl has obscure techniques is equal to the chances that Melee or 64 had them.

No, you really can't. Sakurai put a lot of new advanced techniques into Melee, most of which aren't at all intuitive and obvious upon the first playthrough.

For the transistion into Brawl, however, Kishimoto put in a lot of changes that simplified the the game. Why would he then hide a bunch of techniques that are really, really hard to find? What we'll find in the future will mostly probably be glitches.

 

[What's The Point]

Wavedashing was discovered early on. They just didn't start using it regularly right away because back then, the community was still young and green on what constituted High Level and Competitive Play. The community back then is not in any way comparable to the community right now.

Though one could make an argument about how the Brawl scene is like the early Melee scene, I don't believe that.

Just because a game is new does not mean it's better or that the scene will throw out the old one for it.

I would never claim that the 'hardcore' scene will ultimately prefer the new game. However, the more casual scene almost certainly will. When something becomes big scene, the casuals are really one of the most important parts. By this I mean something MLG size, and MLG will almost certainly be using Brawl (Quick browse of site says Melee is gone, though nothing on Brawl yet). The 'Johns' (Hard to classify) who show up to fill brackets are the majority.

I present to you Naruto: Gekitou Ninja Taisen EX. The GNT-scene loathed it and sticked with GNT4.

For a more competitively viable game, there's Tekken 4. The competitive scene loathed it and stuck with Tekken Tag and Tekken 3.

I'll assume these are true, but most currently competitive games I can think of use the most recent games. SF used the newest version of their game (Though Alpha was split), Tekken is on DR, GG uses AC, Halo 3, most sports games.

 

[SirroMinus1]

To start off! Most competitive people are disappointed with Brawl ATM due to lack of technical skills! RIGHT?

What a lot of people don't realize is the fact it takes time for things to be found to make the game more technical! It took MANY years for a lot of things to be founded in melee and not a single month. May i add the fact that only japan and not many U.S. people own the game. So how can you just be like it's garbage no more wavedash or L-cancel! There is new things that i have seen already that is technical. It's gonna take a while but it will be more technical as the months/years go on and more competitive!

So it seems to me that the people that were the top players in the world are disappointed in the clean slate and the ones that were competitive but not among the top what so ever are happier and ya i understand....just a thought because i heard some people already are gonna quit playing due to this and that it BLASPHEMY!

P.S. - No hate replies please but serious ones

your late topics like this already exist. though i still agree.

 

[tennisthehilife]

Smash 64 had no real competitive scene, Melee created the competitive scene. I mean Melee has lived 7 years and will continue to for some time.

Brawl will ride w/ Melee's competitive success for a while but for how long?

Brawl is not Melee 2.0, its a completely different game. Brawl may or may not be as competitive as we wish it would. Perhaps it'll only last for 3-4 years.

Lots of games exists but not many are competitive worthy. There is no guarantee Brawl will be competitive. It may just end up as a party game. Melee was an awesome fast-paced head and hand sweating game.


Hopefully Brawl will have a competitive scene.

 

[Yuna]

I'll assume these are true, but most currently competitive games I can think of use the most recent games. SF used the newest version of their game (Though Alpha was split), Tekken is on DR, GG uses AC, Halo 3, most sports games.

Because the current versions of said games are actually good, especially in comparison to their presdecessors.

If the new GG sucks, they'll stick to AC.

 

[Mechageo]

No, you really can't. Sakurai put a lot of new advanced techniques into Melee, most of which aren't at all intuitive and obvious upon the first playthrough.

For the transistion into Brawl, however, Kishimoto put in a lot of changes that simplified the the game. Why would he then hide a bunch of techniques that are really, really hard to find? What we'll find in the future will mostly probably be glitches.

R.I.P. my lover and dearest friend, Crouchcancel.

May you rest in peace on your tiny Disc.

 

[IM_A_HUSTLA]

brawl is goin to be played like melee was supposed to w/o all the cheap stuff

 

[Terrorcon Blot]

Brawl is already more competitive than Melee since I'm seeing matches that aren't just the same six characters running in place and twitching across Final Destination.

 

[Eaode]

Brawl is already more competitive than Melee since I'm seeing matches that aren't just the same six characters running in place and twitching across Final Destination.

*facepalm*

 

[180OP]

Brawl will only become as competitive cause people will eventually conform to the new shiz.

But in my opinion, as a fighter Melee>>Brawl.

 

[Balloon]

You could make the same statement about SSB64 and SSBM. On the surface, both games are highly accessible/user-friendly party games as well, and one would think Sakurai/the game designers wouldn't put anything overly advanced in those game either.

The chances that Brawl has obscure techniques is equal to the chances that Melee or 64 had them.

This is completely untrue because of what Sakurai has officially stated. Brawl was designed with casual players in mind, according to him. He doesn't seem to be a fan of competition at all, and that's all and good or whatever, but it certainly does suck for those of us who really enjoy delving deeply into things to the point where playing them endlessly is almost a requirement.

Brawl is a shallow game and I really really doubt any sort of new and unique metagame will develop that also carries with it the depth of any decent competitive game. This is made so much more likely with Sakurai's statement that it was purposefully catered to the casual gamer.

All of this is why the chances are not equal. Melee was extremely advanced because it introduced so much, and it seems that it truly was the potential of the smash bros series. Brawl introduced very little and at the same time DE-introduced so much.

 

[180OP]

This is completely untrue because of what Sakurai has officially stated. Brawl was designed with casual players in mind, according to him. He doesn't seem to be a fan of competition at all, and that's all and good or whatever, but it certainly does suck for those of us who really enjoy delving deeply into things to the point where playing them endlessly is almost a requirement.

Brawl is a shallow game and I really really doubt any sort of new and unique metagame will develop that also carries with it the depth of any decent competitive game. This is made so much more likely with Sakurai's statement that it was purposefully catered to the casual gamer.

All of this is why the chances are not equal. Melee was extremely advanced because it introduced so much, and it seems that it truly was the potential of the smash bros series. Brawl introduced very little and at the same time DE-introduced so much.

Exactly what i've said before.

Brawl has little additions(the fighting portion obviously), huge subtractions which did more bad than good.

Smash Environment is a closed one. I call it now, no new techniques will be found to manipulate the environment. The programmers really went out of their way to close the holes. impossible now to manipulate the environment. I hope i am wrong!

ONLY ONLY, character specific techniques will be found and they are more likely to be strategies.

By manipulating the environment I mean, things that can be done by any character, like abuse of physics for wavedashing or lcancelling, roll edgehog, useful dash dance,..down cancelling? (wtf was that called when you hold down to minimize knockback? completely escapes my mind)..etc etc etc.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

I wondered if it ever occured to people that other people played melee for years without advance tactics and wavedashing so yeah using that as a way of saying melee was more competitive because of that doesnt work.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

I wondered if it ever occured to people that other people played melee for years without advance tactics and wavedashing so yeah using that as a way of saying melee was more competitive because of that doesnt work.

Could you clarify that a bit? Sentences without punctuation are a bit hard to understand. Did you mean to say that advanced techniques are not what made Melee competitive? Because that would be a pretty ridiculous statement.

 

[N-Plus]

of course...smash there arent any leaderboards or rankings.

 

[Chaotic-Strike]

Im sure people with reasonable IQs can understand that sentence but dont strain to hard. Unlike most im confident enough not to use spell check.



Saying melee was only competitive due to advance techs,while brawl cant due to the ones it took out would be ridiculous.

 

[GhostAnime]

all fighting games are competitive. what's the point of this topic?

 

[Platanos]

I don't understand myself why we need advanced techniques...

 

[Yuna]

I wondered if it ever occured to people that other people played melee for years without advance tactics and wavedashing so yeah using that as a way of saying melee was more competitive because of that doesnt work.

And these were competitive people who did well at tournaments since when now?

We're talking about Competitive Smash here (the thread title actually has the word "Competitive" in it), not "What's the most fun to X-group of people".

all fighting games are competitive. what's the point of this topic?

Yes, but not all fighting games are equally competitive(ly viable). I mean, how competitively viable is Turtles Tournament Fighter (or whatever it's called) in comparison to the latest installation of King of Fighters?

I don't understand myself why we need advanced techniques...

I'd settle for unadvanced ones as long as we got more options than we do today.

 

[GhostAnime]

I don't understand myself why we need advanced techniques...

some are necessary. some arent.

if i have to explain why l-canceling was necessary, you have no business being in this topic anymore.

 

[Witchking_of_Angmar]

Im sure people with reasonable IQs can understand that sentence but dont strain to hard. Unlike most im confident enough not to use spell check.



Saying melee was only competitive due to advance techs,while brawl cant due to the ones it took out would be ridiculous.

Without advanced techs, Melee has no depth. Depth is a vital ingredient for a competitive game. So we can safely say that advanced techniques are what Melee so competitive.

Also, can you please not be an ass?

You're "confident enough to not use spell check," yet you have at least 9 mistakes (just from taking a quick look at your post). Hello? Are you trying to get people to laugh at you?

 

[GhostAnime]

I mean, how competitively viable is Turtles Tournament Fighter (or whatever it's called) in comparison to the latest installation of King of Fighters?

true. though, i'm just saying fighting games are competitive by nature.

Without advanced techs, Melee has no depth. Depth is a vital ingredient for a competitive game. So we can safely say that advanced techniques are what Melee so competitive.

you are right. advanced techniques do give depth. though, it depends on the advanced technique..

i think the real depth (or rather, the biggest depth) smash bros. games have are the mind games.

 

[Yuna]

you are right. advanced techniques do give depth. though, it depends on the advanced technique..

i think the real depth (or rather, the biggest depth) smash bros. games have are the mind games.

And what, pray tell, do the Advanced Techs in Melee give to us if not moer options for "mindgaming"?

I mean, since when did wavedashing per se p0wn opponents? When was the last time someone got owned to death by a wavedash?

Instead of, say, someone dashing forward, then wavedashing backwards to evade a tilt and then dashattacking. Or someone techchasing, then wavedashing backwards when the opponent techs towards them into a downsmash or grab.

Advanced Techniques are but tools for "mindgaming".

 

[GhostAnime]

i'm not saying advanced techniques dont give more mind games. i'm saying that there are ones that just make it more convenient to do things.

say fox's double laser, for example.

 

[Catfish_Mike]

Im sure people with reasonable IQs can understand that sentence but dont strain to hard. Unlike most im confident enough not to use spell check.



Saying melee was only competitive due to advance techs,while brawl cant due to the ones it took out would be ridiculous.

HAW HAW HAW! Hilarious. As in "stupid".

Brawl will be as competitive as Melee, just based on the fact that it's going online. There will be a lot more people playing and pushing the meta-game to it's limits. If the Melee vets don't want to adapt, then they'll get left behind and a new group of elites will rise in their place. The Smash scene isn't gonna revolve around a bunch of people stuck in the past, move on or step aside.

 

[Yuna]

Brawl will be as competitive as Melee, just based on the fact that it's going online. There will be a lot more people playing and pushing the meta-game to it's limits. If the Melee vets don't want to adapt, then they'll get left behind and a new group of elites will rise in their place. The Smash scene isn't gonna revolve around a bunch of people stuck in the past, move on or step aside.

Oh yes, we've seen how Online play has done wonders to Dead or Alive 4. I mean, that scene's sooooo large!

At least in DoA4, you could face off against random players for rank. In Brawl, you can only play against people you already know (somehow) or completely random people you won't know the name of in 2 minute FFAs... for no rank at all. It's basically just a whole bunch of friendlies with added lag.

The Competitive Smash Scene will revolve around the game the most Competitive Smashers put their support behind. It's not about not wanting to adapt or "renewing" ourselves. It's not wanting to play a game we view as inferior when a much better game is available. It's pur decision, it's our view. I don't see tons of people calling you an idiot for choosing Brawl over Melee. Why are you insult me for choosing Melee over Brawl for completely valid reasons?