Capestalling lower

[ThatGuy]

Heya, I suppose it's high time I post something useful around here. This one's pretty basic. What I don't see Mario players do is capestall below the edge (out of range of regrab). This is a very useful trick because it leaves all options open at the edge with a very limited window of punishment for the opponent.

While holding the edge
1) Drop slightly below the edge
2) Cape AWAY from the stage at a height where a double jump would get you back onstage

Why is this useful? Well, people usually do this for the old cape -> bair back on stage option. But what you can also do here is jump back and cape a second time towards the edge, which will cancel and grab the edge immediately, working like a less punishable capestall. This can also be used for walljump mixups, dj->fireball->regrab edge, upBs, and all other options you normally have.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I do this all the time, actually, for tons of options. One of my favorite ideas, on Battlefield, is to capestall low, jump back and wall jump and b-reverse fireball, which reverses my momentum and puts me onstage pretty well. It's a nice flashy trick that works to get back on stage a good amount of the time.

Let's not forget that you can capestall down there, and if your opponent attempts to intercept somehow you get a free up-b. Fall on the stage and you've rid yourself of any RCO lag you may have had without being punished, which is the stupidest ****ing thing in the game and is the sole reason I hate Mario's ledge game.

 

[Omari]

Honestly, I believe this tactic to be useful (& I use myself) but I noticed that a better question than why (despite it being a great question) would be, what am I looking for? To be more thorough, "what am I looking for my opponent to do"? Answers? Reasons?

 

[Fuujin]

but guys mario is still bad

 

[Omari]

You're right ( or not) & I've accepted that fact long ago (1st fact I had to accept regarding brawl) which is why I'm constantly improving@a fast rate.

Fun=my top priority when playing video games. Granted, winning at all/any cost is too but you can't let it get to you (emotions).

I'd like to learn Zelda though. Advice? =D

 

[Fuujin]

*see avatar*

 

[Omari]

Been seen it, thanks?

 

[Fuujin]

np babe

10char

 

[Coolwhip]

Always the zelda mains.....zelda is free btw.
Choking zelda with mario's cape is soooo

 

[SKidd]

Zelda needs to be bottom of mid tier. Seriously. Especially in the (imaginary) doubles tier list.




Anyway, the only use I see for this is bairing while getting back on-stage. Anything else you wouldn't really need to do a cape for.

Also, does anyone ever ledge grab -> fall from ledge -> jump back -> b reversal fireball back onstage?

 

[ThatGuy]

Honestly, I believe this tactic to be useful (& I use myself) but I noticed that a better question than why (despite it being a great question) would be, what am I looking for? To be more thorough, "what am I looking for my opponent to do"? Answers? Reasons?

It's one of the few things Mario can do that is quite safe, so you can react to anything your opponent tries to do. If they do nothing, then this is also a reaction. It gives you time to evaluate the situation (it also gives them more time as well, so it could be a double edged sword ).

Zelda needs to be bottom of mid tier. Seriously. Especially in the (imaginary) doubles tier list.




Anyway, the only use I see for this is bairing while getting back on-stage. Anything else you wouldn't really need to do a cape for.

Also, does anyone ever ledge grab -> fall from ledge -> jump back -> b reversal fireball back onstage?

I think you're missing a step here. A b-reversal would cause you to shoot the fireball away from the stage, where your opponent probably is not located.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

I think you're missing a step here. A b-reversal would cause you to shoot the fireball away from the stage, where your opponent probably is not located.

That's why he should be walljumping first.

 

[SKidd]

No...




Jumping backwards lets you fireball the opposite way. It's like a b-reversal while facing one direction the entire time.

 

[Omari]

@TG: Is there an ideal height Mario mains should be @ when cape stalling from ledge?

Honestly, I believe Mario should be out of the maximum snap range (MU dependent but generally more vertically) because you're less exposed, you have the option to SJP safely to either the ledge (again) or the stage upon whiff (ledge-hog). Depends. Recommend doing w/e works/guaranteed.

@Xero: WJ=good if you're attempting to reach higher platforms but other than that, any air that beats your fire ball is going to beat you because you're still in the animation. Hold that!

*Besides, you can't wall jump without double jumping when hanging on ledges w/ slants. Most neutral are excluded except for Yoshi's Island. Not recommended.

@Skidd: Yes, fire ball towards the ledge is useful but only @ certain heights. For example if you free fall (from ledge)>dj away>b-reverse fire ball too early Mario will not only receive RCO lag but he'll also be exposed to ground attacks.

Perform this too late & Mario won't receive RCO lag, but in the same sense will still be exposed to airs (attacks).

*From exp, I find it best to to get the fire ball to bounce @ mid height (difficult to describe but shoot the fire ball from Mario's hat height).

The main nuisance is understand which attacks not only clashes with your fire ball, but @ the same time out prioritize Mario's.

 

[SKidd]

Uh... RCO lag from b reversing back on stage? I have not experiences this.

 

[Omari]

Yes.

Whenever you don't rid yourself from RCO lag by doing one no the following:
1. Special recovery (any B move)
2. Landing onstage
3. Landing any air (Mario's best airs to land are b-air, u-air & n-air because they all have 10 frames of landing lag) + each air becomes deadly once staled (especially @ mid %)

A way one can bypass RCO lag is by landing with a special.

Fire ball, cape or F.L.U.D.D. works but there's one catch (RCO lag still remains until rid of).

*If your opponent catches this, they can perform impossible setups due to increased amount of landing lag. This helps us out immensely (especially from a single jab @ any %, u-tilt @ low % or u-air @ low %). Basically anything that forces landing.

 

[ThatGuy]

@TG: Is there an ideal height Mario mains should be @ when cape stalling from ledge?

Below the edge, high enough to double jump back onto the stage with a bair or fireball, but low enough to not snap directly back to the stage. The lower you go, the safer you are, but you also gain less options from that. Varying the height in itself is a mixup, minor as it may be.

 

[Omari]

One of Mario's weaknesses is his double jump which I believe shouldn't be used until severely needed. There's nothing wrong with taking risks (you want to confirm what doesn't/does work, right?) One of my previous problems with recovering from ledges was airing back onstage. I'm aware everything won't be perfect but I aim for it to be damn good (best as). +100% generally our options will diminish. Here's my mindset when recovering from ledges & what I believe benefits Mario most.[COLLAPSE="Enemy position when you're on ledge +100% & "what you're looking for":"]Close: Let go (free/fast fall)>Double Jump (DJ)>d-air (shield pressure & flexibility (being able to followup with another air/special) *Enemy@high%: n-air, enemy@mid%: u-air & enemy@low%: d-air
Mid: Let go>cape (reading)>*no specific reaction from enemy then snap back*/*enemy reacts in a specific way punishable then bait/punish
Far: Let go>DJ>fire ball (assist cover) & you're looking for enemy to let you recover (**** up)[/COLLAPSE]*If you feel there's anything you'd like to add or something wrong with my mindset, explain.

Important: One of my personal problems use to be when playing competitively was that I played how I desired to play. Never (until now) was I focus on not losing @ any/all costs (doing w/e works). Having a fixed (plateau) strategy isn't current mindset opposed to having dynamics (results).

 

[HeroMystic]

This isn't seen a lot?

I pretty much use this every time I play.

 

[Matador]

I agree with this. I use it all the time as well.

It allows so many extra options.

 

[ThatGuy]

For real? I have not seen a single video of this being used. I must be really out of it or something.

 

[Coolwhip]

Hmm....maybe someone should upload a video showing this tech & what options are useful & effective for mario.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

It's basically the classic cape away from stage > bair, except with more options

 

[Matador]

For real? I have not seen a single video of this being used. I must be really out of it or something.

Yeah, unless I'm misunderstanding, you can catch me doing this in my recent vids as a ledge mix-up.

If we didn't have RCO lag problems, I'd say Mario is pretty formidable on the ledge due in part to this tech.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I actually do this.

 

[Omari]

If we didn't have RCO lag problems, I'd say Mario is pretty formidable on the ledge due in part to this tech.

's n-air, u-air & b-air=10 frames landing lag which reduces RCO lag (15=soft landing [lower than small hop height w/o fast fall]/30=hard landing [higher than small hop height or fast fall]) & covers most (if not, all) situations. =D

TG: How do you recover with fire ball while hanging on ledge? Why do you believe this way of recovering to be most beneficial? Setups? Traps? Combos?

 

[Matador]

Btw, this is suicide vs ZSS.

Any aerial will lose to her Dsmash and, if she spaces it right, her dsmash will catch you jumping up for a fireball. Even if you trade, it's unfavorable since she's stunning you. She can simply come back from being hit by your aerial while you're still stunned and pwn your likely-now-jumpless ***.

Capestall lower only if feel that she won't catch you. Otherwise, stick to conventional methods (get-up attack, ledgehop fireball/aerial, roll, etc).

 

[Omari]

Anyone recommend F.L.U.D.D. when on ledge? Better question, "what opponent's action am I looking for before committing"? Any constructive feedback appreciated, thanks.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

I actually do this.

Oh my god your name

 

[- Theelitebrawler -]

Is it normal for ZSS to loses all of her pieces except one when on the second platform of brinstar? That happened to me not too long ago when I fought a ZSS, and I picked Brinstar, she was on the second starting platform and all of her pieces except one fell. I found that to be rather interesting.