"Chills of the Fever" - Dr. Mario Matchup Discussion

[Kisatamura]

Yo. Welcome to the Dr. Mario Matchup Discussion, where you can discuss who Doc can mollywhop, who's even, who's the most fun matchup or whatever. I think this topic is pretty important since the game's been out for a while, and thankfully we have some obvious matchup notes and some not-so obvious matchup notes.The Community Tier list and the Japan Tier list are somewhat considered, but not really taken into account since the meta is too early. If it helps, I've seen a tournament match where a Lucina beat a Diddy, so...

So without further ado, a work in progress matchup list for Doc. Some notes will be aside the character, but for the most part I'll leave most of the discussing up to people who want to talk about it so that we can move characters around. I'll also need help on some characters that I'm totally undecided on, or don't know about. My post here is mainly my own notes, but we'll go into more detail about certain characters depending on who we feel needs to be discussed.

Here's a quick link to characters that are already discussed.

Spoiler

TTTTTsd's post
HeroMystic's post
My Post
A note on Mario's and Dr. Mario's UpBs

Spoiler

Macchiato's post

And below is my (old) notes that are mainly just summaries.

Diddy Kong

Spoiler

He's got good mobility and can deal damage faster than you with bananas, but he won't be able to challenge your pills with his Popgun. Use his banana if he pulls it out, otherwise avoid his banana and hit him before he hits you. You can knock Diddy out of his Side B with Tornado or UpB, or any good timing with rolls/attacks/etc

Rosalina

Spoiler

Rosalina can outrange you, with or without Luma. Killing the Luma makes the matchup more manageable but is still in her favor. Make use of moves that'll hit both Rosalina and her Luma such as Tornado, Reversed UpB... if you get within close range when Luma's not out it'll be easier though she can still send you back with her attacks. She doesn't have too many 'get off me' moves without Luma.

Zero Suit Samus

Spoiler

I consider her Sheik-lite with more range. However she has access to damaging combos so make sure to hit her tall frame with pills. You can avoid some of her strings by using UpB or Tornado, especially for her midair strings. Don't get caught offstage or else you'll get meteored. This matchup is primarily about who gets the damage lead.

Sheik

Spoiler

His worst matchup in my opinion. Sheik can do alot more than Doc and better than he can do it. Use pills when you're safe or else you'll get punished. Like ZSS though, Sheik's relatively big frame allows you to deal some damage back to her. If she's offstage, use Tornado to guard the edge so that she'll get knocked away again, or hopefully spiked by Tornado. It's a tough matchup, no doubt.

Marth

Spoiler

Keeping it short, Marth has range and speed to outclass Doc, though he doesn't have your projectile. AKA a worst matchup. Know Marth's range, because tippers will hurt if they connect. However Marth has some cooldown on most of his moves so baiting him is a plus, and he's also vulnerable to more combos due to his height. The main goal here is to carefully rush Marth down if he keeps zoning you, or to throw pills if they won't approach. Make good use of your spacing or shield to punish Marth's attacks. Just keep an eye out for his Shield Breaker and Counter.

Greninja
Fox

Spoiler

Fox can rush you down and combo you. I'll need more matchup info since I tend to keep running into Falcos instead. What I do know is that Fox is more vulnerable to throw combos than Falco is. Other than that, Fox can be edgeguarded with the cape if they recover high, or Tornado if they recover low and you time it right.

Falco

Spoiler

They're pretty difficult to approach, I'll give you that. WIP

Yoshi

Spoiler

Avoid the dreaded Dair, so don't give Yoshi a chance to do that. If they Yoshi Bomb you have a couple of options, mostly from dodging and punishing. You can UpB or Tornado if Yoshi is falling near you. You can cape the eggs, but it's mostly so that Yoshi doesn't hit you with it. Force him to move near you so that he can't use his approach options. I'll need some more info and tips here because the only Yoshi I've been playing against is one of my friends. WIP

Wario(?)

Spoiler

General consensus seems to be that Wario has the ability to play hit and run with Doc. Since I use Wario as a secondary, I'm a bit confused as to why Doc seems to be a favorable matchup for Wario. Either way, Wario does have the air mobility to challenge Doc though you should never see a Wario use the bike against Doc due to multiple moves like bair being able to knock Wario out of it. Wario does however lack a good way to deal high damage safely outside of Wario Waft, so don't give him the chance to hit you. Wario's fair is fast but weak, while Nair has an incredible long lasting hitbox so you can either block it and punish him for it, or use something like Bair or Tornado to knock them out of Nair. Wario's Bair and Dair allow him to send you offstage, but have really bad landing lag so you should capitalize on that.

If he's running away from you, use jumped pills and rush him on the ground so that you'll cover two angles. I'd like to say it's one of those matches where whoever gains momentum wins, but it doesn't feel like it. Also, don't lose your cool over Wario eating your pills. A Wario player has better things to do, like punish you with a bike.

Shulk

Spoiler

He has good range like Marth. Honestly I wish I had more info on this matchup. While Shulk is vulnerable to your combos due to his size, he can play the range game, and there's been this one Shulk that mollywhopped me once on FG. Either way, I'm pretty sure the matchup is in Shulk's favor. WIP

Pikachu
Lucina

Spoiler

See Marth without tippers

Sonic
Ness(?)
Cpt. Falcon

Spoiler

I love this matchup. While Falcon's fast, he's big so you can pepper him with pills and other moves. Unfortunately, he can kill you pretty quickly with throws into Knee so make sure you zone him well and make every hit count. Falcon is weak offstage like you, so gaining the momentum is the key to victory. Tldr both you can kill each other quickly if one of you mess up, because both of you have combos.

Little Mac

Spoiler

See Captain Falcon, except that Mac isn't big. But he has a bad combination of air stats so he's vulnerable to your combos. Be smart against Little Macs, since the bad ones will blindlessly rush you down, and the good ones will play defensively against you. It may be worth trying to throw a pill out and see how your Little Mac opponent with react. I wish I had more info against good Little Macs, as it's too easy to write how to body bad Macs.

Mario

Spoiler

It's like his Melee matchup. Mario will combo you and Doc just has to accept this and play the KO game better than Mario, which Mario has to accept. Mario can't play the projectile game as good as you, so force him to respect your pill though most likely he'll cape it. Both of you have the same attack speed, so you don't need to worry about Mario beating your normals. On the other hand, he gets better damage results from throws and his moveset though the only KO option he can get are FSmash and USmash reads, so don't make mistakes. Just make sure you don't get hit by his kill moves, such as his Fair. If you're offstage though, remember that Mario also has stubby limbs like you so sometimes you'll get lucky if you recover with Tornado because it might beat out any attacks your opponent tries.

Your bair beats out Mario's bair in all areas, so if he's trying to challenge you with this remind him who has the better bair. Mario's dair though, is really good but can get incredibly predictable if they keep overusing it. While most Marios will kind of use Mario's superior air speed to move away from getting punished, you have a couple answers to this, mainly an OOS Tornado (Which is the safest option for me, since it'll cover an airdodge from Mario), Shield Grab, or OOS UpB. You'll have to pay attention to Mario's dair animation, since if it lands on the ground, it's easier to react to while if it ends in the air you have to be quick to hit him out of it before he does something else, which is why I recommend using Dr. Tornado to cover his airdodge. Either way, dair nets good advantage for Mario if it hits you, so be smart and try to outprioritize his Tornado with one of your moves.

Though obviously, Mario will try to gimp you with FLUDD. Thankfully FLUDD has a blindspot from below, so try to move yourself to below the stage (I'll need more testing on if airdodges to the ledge are safe enough for Doc to avoid FLUDD). It's one of those battles where whoever gets the momentum is in the lead, but Mario is always one step ahead... until it's time to KO you. If you can keep the damage lead though, you're golden.

 

[Gunla]

Matchup Table
This is a work in progress. The chart displays the opinions of the posters below, and is subject to change.​

Character (Doc:Opponent) |Matchup|Consensus
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| Even 50:50|Mirror Match!
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|Luigi 45:55-40-60| Luigi's ability up close is stronger than Doc's, and while Doc may have a decent neutral, Luigi's ability to KO rather early with his Tornado gimp among other things gives him an advantage.
| Even 50:50| Doc not only is based off of Mario, balanced off of Mario to be roughly even, but the main result is going to lean heavily on who outplays the other.
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[Gunla]

Just as a note: I've included this matchup chart so that we can add onto it with consensus and such. Feel free to keep your thoughts there, @ Kisatamura , as it does provide us some general idea for other players.

What is everyone's thoughts on a rotation system of character discussion? (IE: What I do on Greninja's board) Or, for the time being, would freeform discussion be more suitable?

 

[Kisatamura]

I think for the time being, freeform discussion would probably work since we're not too active. But I do like the idea of the rotation system in the Greninja thread, so I'll keep that in mind.

 

[KenMeister]

Think we should do something akin to the Ganon boards by doing weekly character discussions, and agree on a ratio and summary by the end of the week? Out of all the boards I've seen, the Ganon boards tend to have things more organized and active with their matchup discussions than generally 80% of the other boards I've seen around here.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I don't think we have enough for weekly matchup discussion. Like, our boards are probably some of the most quiet, so I propose we just dump info here regularly or semi-regularly and just shoot it off from there. Given that I am subbing this character (I stopped maining him because #thestruggle but I still want to make him work somewhat), I'll give some input on various characters.

: 50/50 EVEN
- Obviously this MU would be even, they're the same char-I mean uh, yeah. Everything Mario does can be answered by Doc barring gimps, and everything Doc does can be answered by Mario. It's a battle of wall Mario vs. not-wall Mario and it's pretty hype. If Mario gets confident throwing Bairs at you just toss your own, if you trade you're favorable. Megavitamins don't move at a very annoying arc for Mario, but the thing about Mario is that his ideal range is your ideal range. You are both overall men at heart, good luck!

: 40:60/45:55 Luigi's advantage
- Green man is better than Mario again, and it doesn't change much here. His throw game is devastating and he outranges you by like, a hair. I am leaning on the latter number as opposed to the former because of Doc's stronger defensive and walling options compared to Mario. Doc has more tools defensively so he might be able to box or fight Luigi a bit better regardless. Not sure but one of those two numbers above is definitely correct. Watch out for Luigi's incredibly potent up close combat and try to swat him with Bairs or fast normals as much as possible.

That's all I got for now that's definitive.

 

[Kisatamura]

Think we should do something akin to the Ganon boards by doing weekly character discussions, and agree on a ratio and summary by the end of the week? Out of all the boards I've seen, the Ganon boards tend to have things more organized and active with their matchup discussions than generally 80% of the other boards I've seen around here.

I think this is a good idea, especially since the first two characters on the select screen are similar to Doc

As TTTTTsd has started, I think it's best that we start with the first two characters on the select screen, Mario, and the Eternal Understudy Luigi. I think the matchup between Mario and Doc is pretty straightforward and easy to understand since the two are honest characters, but Luigi will need some more info and testing on matchups, since while Luigi has the better low percent combo game and kill setups out of the Marios, he also suffers from the same range that Mario and Doc have. Plus, several of his moves such as bair or Cyclone can be punished if they are used incorrectly. Either way, in a little bit I'll get the in-depth matchup discussion on Mario started. It's also ok to bring up discussions on other matchups that we're currently not doing, like if you found some cool secret way to defeat Wii Fit Trainer or something.

 

[Gunla]

Doc's testing and balancing for the actual dev team was to be "roughly equal" against Mario in battle. Same for Lucina and D. Pit.

I'd agree it's the case.

 

[HeroMystic]

It's pretty much even. Maybe 55:45 Mario since trading with Doc's N-air is favorable for Mario. Doc's defense and stronger hits is what allows him to keep up with Mario's damage.

 

[Astronut]

Which match-ups do you guys think Doc does better in than Mario?

 

[Kisatamura]

So let's start the in-depth matchup discussion. This post will probably be edited as we find info or add stuff.

Matchup: vs Mario

Mario's Attributes
Mario's weight is 98, the same as Dr. Mario (Very slightly below average). Mario has an average jump, an average dash speed, above-average air speed, and can wall-jump. Mario is a bit faster than Doc.

Projectiles

In terms of long-range battles, Doc has the better projectile... depending on the pace of the match. I'll be straight to the point on this: Mario has a quicker projectile, but it only goes in one direction while our pills can cover more angles, but moves slower. Because of this, Mario has to decide between either jumping over your pill, shield it, going underneath it, or caping it while Doc can either jump over it, cape it, or shield it. Honestly, this isn't like a Doc ditto where no matter what you do, you get hit with a pill

But either way, if Mario keeps on jumping, angle your pills so that they hit him where he can't block. He'll most likely cape it, so I'll leave it up to you if you want to cape his projectiles. Just be smart with the projectiles in this matchup, cause Mario has to respect your pill. Well, it's not really respect, but your projectile can cover more angles than Mario's.

Summary of the Matchup
Essentially, this matchup is all around who can outplay the other. Seriously.

But in all seriousness, since both Marios can either play projectile battles or rushdown, this matchup comes down to who can keep the momentum going and keep the damage lead. Both Doc and Mario can rushdown, and that'll happen in this match, while the two Marios try to zone each other with aerials, projectiles, what have you. Because of his better speed, Mario is slightly better at approaching you and keeping in your face. Because you have the same moves (With the exception of dair and Down Special), you should know what Mario will throw out, as nobody in this matchup will really outrange each other. Mario has the better combo game than Doc but the worse KO game, so Mario can combo you for days while you have more options at securing the KO. Mario has faster movement options, so he can play a hit-and-run game better than you can.

At low percents, Mario will usually aim for the Dthrow strings, or use their bair or dair (or anything not fair, honestly) in aerial approaches. Your game plan is mostly the same. Doc's Dthrow strings are not as long as Mario's, but they allow more mixup potential depending on what you do after your air followup. You can also do utilt strings, which are more guaranteed than Mario's because of his utilt having less damage nowadays. You do have two options against Mario's Utilt strings, UpB or Nair. Because of UpB's and Nair's fast startup, you can get out of Mario's utilts, just make sure you Reverse UpB out of it. Mario's Utilts are not considered true combos (As are Doc's, so don't get too crazy with the utilt), so anytime you get caught in that string, UpB if Mario is near 20 percent, or nair! Mario can also do the same thing, but he doesn't get too much out of it because his UpB is multihit, and will only deal a little bit of damage if he reverses it, so he'll usually do nair so he's safe. If he doesn't, you can punish him as long as you're not near mid percents (And at that point, utilt strings won't even connect). Your UpB is unsafe if it connects at early percents, so make sure your opponent is relatively damaged before breaking the combo. As HeroMystic pointed out though, you should be aware if your opponent is aware of your combo breakers, and you should watch out of Mario's nair if he attempts to stop your utilt string. UpB is death if it gets blocked.

In terms of aerial approaches, while Doc has slightly more ending lag on his moves, your attacks start up the same as Mario's (With the exception of dair). Your bair and uair are more powerful than Mario's, so you can use your bair for approaches. Even trading will put the situation in your favor, due to it being a kill move at high percents, while Mario has to wait longer for his bair to become a kill move. Either way, you can challenge Mario in aerial battles with bair. You need to watch out for two moves of Mario, however: Dair and Nair.

I'll start with Mario's nair. Mario's nair is different from Doc's, due to it having more strength at the start, while Doc's is the opposite. Because of this, Mario will out-damage you if he uses nair to approach. However, if Doc jumps in early with the nair, he'll outdamage Mario. Essentially, you want to use something else to challenge his nair if Mario uses it. Though, Mario will also try to knock you out of your nair if you use it to approach. Doc's nair works good if you use it from above and fall on the opponent, like a legdrop.

Dair is also one of the things that really makes Mario different from you. Mario's dair (The Mario Tornado) crosses up, comes out quickly, and allows combos on hit for Mario. Anytime you see Mario approaching with his dair, knock him out with a bair or your own Tornado. Sometimes Dr. Tornado will outprioritize Mario's dair, either due to Dr. Tornado's longer range or something, I'll need more testing on this. Mario can use his air speed to move away if his dair gets blocked, so make sure you to practice OOS UpB! If you get hit by dair, then you'll get juggled since Mario's dair can lead into many other things for Mario, leading up to an UpB or another dair. If the Mario screws up and lands on the ground without autocanceling, that's your cue to go up to him and punish him. Dr. Tornado will also work well for punishing a blocked dair, since it'll cover his roll.

Mario's killmoves are his FSmash, USmash, DSmash, UpB near the top of the screen, and bair at really high percents. You'll need to pay attention to FSmash, because that's his longest reaching normal on the ground and starts up relatively quickly. Don't put yourself in a position where you can get punished by his FSmash range! To give you a good idea of how long it is (For Mario, anyway), he can hit you with FSmash if your bair gets blocked at it's longest range. However, you'll notice that unlike Doc, Mario is going to being fishing for these kill moves, which are all punishable if they miss so don't give him that opportunity. USmash is much faster from behind, but it's the same as Doc's so that's all I can say about it, same with DSmash. You'll usually see Mario do UpB on air combos, so DI away and try to airdodge so Mario can't land that UpB. Thankfully, I don't think most Marios use UpB like that (I do...).

Fair is Mario's meteor option offstage. It's relatively slow, so try to avoid it via airdodge or knocking Mario out of it.

You'll also need to watch out for his meteor (Fair), because his Dthrow sets it up for him. Thankfully it's slow, so try to UpB or airdodge out of his setup.

Securing the KO
Dr. Mario has flexible options for KOing, more than Mario which can help if the two of you are 100 percent and just throwing out aerial attacks.

Bair: This is Doc's quickest option, but you'll need to be around 130 percent near the edge if order for it to kill. You can set this up from Dthrow, pill approaches, or dtilt.

UpB: Anytime Mario makes a bad move on your shield, hit this if FSmash is too slow. Obviously you want the sweetspot.

Tornado: Doc's Dr. Tornado can kill onstage at around 150, depending on rage. However, this move can kill incredibly quickly at 70 and above offstage, and around 110 at the edge if Tornado is fresh. This is a great move to use against a recovering Mario, as they lack any high priority moves to knock Doc out of it if they're recovering.

All Smash attacks, Fair, Back Throw: I put these in the same category because they're Doc's KO moves that can be avoided, much like Mario's own. While your DSmash kills quicker than Mario's, they'll require you to punish Mario, or a setup. Fair can combo from Dthrow, but you need to jump immediately after the throw ends.

Mario Offstage and FLUDD

When you're offstage, you need to watch out for a couple of moves, namely Mario's fair, his bair, or FLUDD. I've seen a couple Marios use fireballs to gimp as well, but keep in mind that they'll usually hit you if you're right below Mario.

When Mario attempts his fair, air dodge it if you can. Fair starts up slow, so if the Mario is still winding up for that meteor, hit him out of it, preferably with Dr. Tornado if you haven't use it yet. His bair can be a decent gimp option against you as well, so do your best to avoid it by recovering high, or air dodging it.

FLUDD is a different story. Keep in mind how you're recovering, because FLUDD can't cover below the stage as well as it can above the stage. If you're horizontal you're screwed, but recovering incredibly high or from below will save you from FLUDD.

When you have Mario offstage, bair and fair can be used to edgeguard. If they're air dodging your attacks, use Tornado or Dair to cover their dodge. While Mario is easy to gimp as well, if he recovers from below you'll either need to try to hit him with pills offstage, or use Tornado to cover the ledge (You can do this by running off the stage and quickly using Tornado, but not mashed enough to where you can actually go up).

Mario's recovery is essentially Cape for some stalling, and UpB. It's above-average when it comes to vertical distance, but it's relatively lacking in horizontal movement. Keep in mind Mario can also walljump, boosting his recovery on certain stages. Some creative Marios will use a reverse FLUDD to push themselves to the stage, though it's somewhat rare to see this, and Mario needs to be up in the air for it to have some sort of effect. His UpB has quick priority at his fist, but can be stuffed out depending on the angle you hit Mario (Usually his sides)

Both Mario's DSmashes send the opponent at a horizontal angle, so be on the lookout for that move if it's being used to set up an edgeguard. If a Mario is on the ledge, you can do a Reverse Cape Ledge Cancel to force him off the ledge. You can do this quicker than Mario can to you.

When you recover high, throw some pills to cover your descent. Tornado can also sometimes knock Mario out of his attacks when you recover, so always keep that in mind.

Overall, both Mario and Doc will have to resort to playing unpredictably at times in order to secure the ko moves. It's good that both Doc and Mario benefit from occasionally being hard to read, but remember that you always have more options for landing the ko.

TLDR/Conclusion

Mario will combo you and Doc just has to accept this and play the KO game better than Mario, which Mario has to accept. Mario can't play the projectile game as good as you, so force him to respect your pill though most likely he'll cape it. Both of you have the same attack speed, so you don't need to worry about Mario beating your normals. On the other hand, he gets better damage results from throws and his moveset though the only KO option he can get are FSmash and USmash reads, so don't make mistakes. Just make sure you don't get hit by his kill moves, such as his Fair. If you're offstage though, remember that Mario also has stubby limbs like you so sometimes you'll get lucky if you recover with Tornado because it might beat out any attacks your opponent tries.

My Opinion: 50/50. This matchup is essentially even, and you'll need to outplay the other because both Mario and Dr. Mario have their own useful tools to have a presence in this match.

General Opinion: 50/50

Moves to look out for

Fireball: As mentioned, Mario's fireball will only cover one approach, and that's on the ground. Cape it or jump over it, but be wary of how Mario will react.

Dair: Mario gets most of his combos from this move. It has relatively low range, so throw a pill or a bair and beat out his Tornado. As a side note, it's harder for Mario to use Dair against airdodges because of it's faster animation.

FSmash: Mario's longest reaching move on the ground. It's sweetspot is the fireblast, and it'll kill if it connects at high percents. While relatively fast, it has some cooldown.

Bair: Remind Mario who has the better bair. Thanks to it's good range and speed, it's a good approach for both Mario and Doc, though it can get predictable if overused.

Dthrow: It gives Mario his combos. UpB if he's doing a utilt string and he's relatively damaged, or nair if he's at early percents though you'll need to see if your opponent is anticipating your combo breakers.

FLUDD: Gimps. Recover from below if they overuse FLUDD. If they use it on stage, they're most likely trying to reset pressure, so don't sweat too much about it on stage.

Super Jump Punch: Mario's UpB is multi-hit, but is pretty fast, has high priority to an extent and goes vertically a fair enough distance. Mario can use it as a combo breaker, so watch out for his UpB during your combo strings!

 

[warionumbah2]

Which match-ups do you guys think Doc does better in than Mario?

Only one that comes to mind is Lucario since Doc has more moves to seal a kill before Lucario becomes a threat. Some match ups are worse than Mario because of his slow movement.

Doc's testing and balancing for the actual dev team was to be "roughly equal" against Mario in battle. Same for Lucina and D. Pit.

I'd agree it's the case.

But Doc vs Mario is actually even the others aren't. Pit has the edge due to better projectile and ftilt and Lucina is like Roy in melee a very bad clone of Marth.

I dislike how they tested things damn Masterhero Samurai.

 

[HeroMystic]

Dthrow: It gives Mario his combos. UpB if he's doing a utilt string.

To note, every good player will read any combo breaker and punish. Up-B is very unsafe for this reason. N-air is the better option.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think as a general rule, MUs that don't rely super heavily on Mario's mobility will probably be better for Doc. If Mario wins or does good without factoring in his great mobility specs, Doc will function arguably close to if not more effective with a more diverse kit of KO moves. Doc's combo game is also more limited but in all ways stronger and more rewarding in terms of damage yield and net reward.

Basically stuff like Luigi where Mario's mobility isn't really a big thing (it's more Luigi's damage yield and strong offense) Doc will likely do better because it's not reliant on his movement speed, it hinges more on damage and punish.

I also think Doc might do better against chars that are forced to approach him, maybe even better vs. fastfallers thanks to his D-Throw and his Utilt trapping better than Mario's thanks to the higher damage (meaning a few more frames of hitstun I believe?). It's all minute but it makes a big difference vs. fastfallers.

 

[Kisatamura]

To note, every good player will read any combo breaker and punish. Up-B is very unsafe for this reason. N-air is the better option.

Doc's UpB goes unpunished if you reverse it during the startup frames, or at least it's harder to punish over using Doc's nair.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's UpB goes unpunished if you reverse it during the startup frames, or at least it's harder to punish over using Doc's nair.

Yes, that's a trick with Doc's Up+B. Hold the opposite direction IMMEDIATELY after the sweetspot hits and Doc will hit them and immediately flip around and go the other way.

Unless you mean less safe in the chance of them shielding or it whiffing?

 

[Kisatamura]

Ah no, I read that wrong. I think he meant as in trying to read combo breakers, like the UpB. It's true that if they see your UpB coming, you'll get punished if it's blocked, but I think that using nair is slightly less safe because it's low blockstun is easy to react to.

 

[HeroMystic]

Yes I mean when shielding the combo breaker.

 

[Macchiato]

I'd say the MU between doc and mario are even, I think we should move on to luigi.

 

[Kisatamura]

Yeah. For the most part it's easy to say that the MU is even, but there are a lot of things that can be used against Mario and what he's capable of. If there isn't anything else to write about on Mario, I'll start gathering info for Luigi.

One thing I can say about Luigi right now for Doc is that he's easier to edgeguard than Mario is due to his bad air speed and lack of a high priority recovery move.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Kisatamura I just played a bunch of matches against a great luigi so ill just move on.

Dr. Mario vs Luigi

The Neutral Game
Doc wins here. He can zone him out with bairs and dr. tornados and that can prevent him from getting a grab which makes him rack up damage. Doc's projectile does better since its less predictable, and it bounces under Luigi's. Doc's already safe moves are even more safe due to Luigi sliding after his shield getting hit. Punishing Luigi isn't hard since his moves are laggy. Going for a dthrow as a punish can do up to 30 damage. Somethings like utilt chains won't work on luigi since he can nair. SH bairs are great for spacing. Our dr. tornado clanks with his tornado but it out prioritizes most of his moves. This can also be said with his tornado also. His can get us in a position for uairs while use could give us stage control or knock them off. He can juggle us better than we could juggle him. Make sure that you nair instead of air dodge since a smart luigi will read it and continue the strings. Luigi's pressure is great. His aerials are fast and hard to punish they could be frustrating. He has a better aerial game so Doc shouldn't try to challenge him.
Offstage Game
Doc and Luigi are both even here. Doc should recover from below the edge since a simple fair can finish us. All we need to do is recover from below and we'll probably be fine. Luigi can either recover from above or below. We can stop him either way. If he missiles, we can cape him and he'll probably be dead. If he is below the edge, drop down the ledge and jump back up and mash with dr. tornado. The tornado will launch him away from the stage and he'll most likely not make it back. If he recovers above the stage we also could dr. tornado. Luigi's tornado isnt a good edgeguard tool because it launches opponents up instead of outward. They both could take each other out at early percents edgeguarding. The goal is not to lose stage control in this MU.
Kill Power
Doc kills early with all his smashes. Doc's Fsmash sweetspoted could kill at 60% and the sourspot could kill at 70%. He can't punish us due to his friction which makes him slide far. Our fast Dsmash kills around 95%, same with our Usmash. Our Usmash can stop his aerials and his head has invincibility. At higher percents, a SJP oos or well spaced bair will kill. Luigi kills about 20% later than Doc. He kills with his smashes, Dthrow to tornado, and SJP. His smashes have more lag which is harder to land and can be punished. Dthrow to tornado is his most reliable kill option but it kills around 120%. SJP is probably gonna be rarely used but keep this in mind. If they miss they can expect a huge punish.
Stages
Go for stages with no platforms since Luigi abuses them more than Doc. Ban battlefield, and town and city. A good stage would be FD or Halberd. Omega stages like wrecking crew, yoshi's island, and Boxing Ring help Doc's recovery since he has a wall jump. Halberd could make Doc kill at crazy early percent due to the small blast zones. This also means that dr. tornado could gimp even earlier. Smashville would be ok since that platform could also help Doc's recovery. I say we ban Battlefield, Town&City, Kongo Jungle 64. And CP FD&Omega, Smashville, and halberd.
Score
Overall I say its 6-4. The reason Doc does better than mario is because Doc has dr. tornado and more kill power.

 

[Kisatamura]

Some Luigis will get sloppy and do combos like Dthrow to Fair to Fair, which isn't a true combo and can be UpB'd out of. Dthrow to Fair to Uair is a true combo however, and it leads to a mixup game for Luigi. His Dthrow has set knockback which can lead to a meteor if not DI'd correctly.

Luigi and Doc's neutral game is something I keep on trying to focus on. While Luigi is deadly up close, his movement speed is only somewhat faster than Doc's, and Luigi has the same short range we have, except his projectile isn't as varied as ours. Like, Luigi Cyclone is a good surprise option, but is easily punished and reacted to if used an approach on the ground. And Luigi's bair is one of his laggiest moves in the air unless it's autocanceled. I don't want to say it's in Doc's favor but Dr. Mario can throw pills and Luigi has to react to it.

 

[Macchiato]

Some Luigis will get sloppy and do combos like Dthrow to Fair to Fair, which isn't a true combo and can be UpB'd out of. Dthrow to Uair to Fair is a true combo however, and it leads to a mixup game for Luigi. His Dthrow has set knockback which can lead to a meteor if not DI'd correctly.

Luigi and Doc's neutral game is something I keep on trying to focus on. While Luigi is deadly up close, his movement speed is only somewhat faster than Doc's, and Luigi has the same short range we have, except his projectile isn't as varied as ours. Like, Luigi Cyclone is a good surprise option, but is easily punished and reacted to. And Luigi's bair is one of his laggiest moves in the air unless it's air canceled. I don't want to say it's in Doc's favor but Dr. Mario can throw pills and Luigi has to react to it.

Yes but Doc's smashes are safe in this MU more than others and kill much earlier than Luigi. Also the dr. tornado help him prevent from being grabbed. Mario doesn't have a way to stop grabs and kills later. The dr. tornado makes doc edgeguard better, approach better, mix up recoveries, and have a safe option. @ Kisatamura also I wouldn't use FG for MU data. I would base it off competitive friendlies or tournament matches.

 

[Kisatamura]

also I wouldn't use FG for MU data. I would base it off competitive friendlies or tournament matches.

I saw a tournament stream where a Luigi did Dthrow to Fair to Fair and did a setup from Dthrow into Dair. I do look at tournaments and the Vegas area for Smash 4, though we're kinda Melee territory at the moment

I don't think I use FG as my main means for testing information, though I do save the matches that are really good for looking at what Doc can do against characters.

 

[Macchiato]

Koolaid vs Daiki
http://youtu.be/DMlwYZPvOaQ
This could help

 

[warionumbah2]

That Luigi/Mac player was horrible and apparently input lag was at play. Anyway which MU are you guys tackling next? I don't think there's anything to add for the Luigi MU.

 

[Macchiato]

Imo I think the luigi MU is 5.5-4.5 or 6-4 favoring doc

 

[Luggy]

Imo I think the luigi MU is 5.5-4.5 or 6-4 favoring doc

Pretty much.
has the combos, but has the neutral game and power to actually do well against Luigi, and overall has a better matchup against him compared to . Everything has been said, so I won't talk much about it.

So for me, it's a 6-4 too.

That Luigi/Mac player was horrible and apparently input lag was at play. Anyway which MU are you guys tackling next? I don't think there's anything to add for the Luigi MU.

I have 3 characters to propose : (and if we're at it) ; or .
I'm more up for talking about Fox or Peach personally, but I'll let people decide.

 

[warionumbah2]

I can talk about peach since I got a replay saved where it was default doc vs peach on battlefield. But of course I'll add my input in whatever mu you guys are doing except Fox since outside of fg I have no experience against him.

 

[Luggy]

I can talk about peach since I got a replay saved where it was default doc vs peach on battlefield. But of course I'll add my input in whatever mu you guys are doing except Fox since outside of fg I have no experience against him.

It would be nice to talk about . I don't encounter a lot of them, but I'm bad at beating them with .

My experience against players is all right, since most of the Foxes that I encountered on FG were excellent players. But, in short, Fox gives Doc a lot of trouble. Since Doc can't be that mobile due to the wavedash being gone, Doc suffers from Fox's speed. You need to have good reads to actually defeat him. Though his recovery is pretty easy to counter with the cape.
Someone needs to do a bigger thing about him, since Fox is one of the most played characters, and could potentially go on the top tier spot with . He's still on the top of the high tier in Japan though.

 

[warionumbah2]

Battlefield is the best stage for doc, peach is helpless when we assault her with uair while she's on a platform because her dair comes out slower than our uair. Down b on this stage doesn't kill as well as I thought it would, I was in my early 90's and she was at 100-110% and another part of the game when we were on our final stocks I was at 69% and she just clocled 103 when my final hit connected but she still lived. Both times I hit her black lightning appeared I think its not only good DI but the blast zones being a little too big.

But even so it puts her in a bad situation, our down b beats her aerials other than fair which beat my nado right when doc was about to spin but im not too sure. Peach will be approaching you since you have the better projectile and turnips take longer to pull out, take full advantage of docs amazing frame data jabs, grabs, dtilt, utilt, u smash just go ham.

Down throw to uair is safe but be aware of her nair she'll most lilely whip this out,but if she does get you with a nair at low percents you can react with utilt so the choice is yours if you wanna take the hit.

We can space her out with sh bair since her fair comes out pretty slow best thing she can do is shield grab but if you space well enough you can avoid that.

Also nair can sometimes win the trade but peaches nair deals more damage early unlike our nair that does more damage the longer its out so use it sparingly.

On battlefield we have the edge 60:40 she can't take out turnips unless she gets us off stage, start of the match, or if for some reason you don't approach. Even so our pills are more effective against her due to her height and her turnpis not doing much to stop it. We should be spacing but also offensive when the time arises since she will approach you. Battlefield is small anyway so where she gonna go?

The MU may be harder on FD may have to hit my friend up sometime but of course you guys can help me out. Sorry if there's ant typos since I written this on my tablet.

EDIT:My short input for Marth and Lucina, Doc loses this MU pretty bad. Marth beats him 60:40 and Lucina taking longer to finish us off and her getting punished from time to time due to hitlag is 55:45, i'll argue my case if you disagree and maybe come to an agreement but without customs there's no way in hell these MU's are in Docs favor.

2211 Doc vs Marth 50:50
2211 Doc vs Lucina 55:45

Marth and Lucina's customs are pretty bad only Fire Emblem character that gets buffed is Ike.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Kisatamura I think we should go to peach since everyone already started on it lol.

I think we're actually done with luigi quick like that and everyone seems to agree on 6-4. I think we can fill into the chart and consensus for luigi

 

[HeroMystic]

Slow your roll, Docs.

Offstage Game
Luigi's tornado isnt a good edgeguard tool because it launches opponents up instead of outward.

This is incorrect. So incorrect actually, that I'd say this changes the MU.

Observe: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/b/602960593?t=3h2m56s

This is Mr.Con Con showing off the Cyclone gimp... a lot. vs Mario, he literally can't do anything about it if he recovers low. Up-B can't beat this.

Mario's Up-B Hitbox Size during the middle of the animation is Size 6 (to compare, Doc's Nado is Size 7), and Luigi's Cyclone beats this nearly every time. The only way it wouldn't is if Mario Up-Bs on Frame 3, which gives invincibility, but is also when he first starts the attack so it's highly unrealistic if Luigi is going for this. Up-B on Luigi's feet (his weakpoint) also forces a trade, but Luigi will still get the gimp.

So what is Doc's Up-b Hitbox Size? 7. This means at best, Doc will trade with Luigi more often, but he's still going to drop and has to get out of hitstun before he can Up-B again, in which case it's already too late.

Recovering low vs Luigi is a horrible idea. Stay high and use Doc nado to outprioritize his moves, then grab the ledge.

 

[Macchiato]

Slow your roll, Docs.



This is incorrect. So incorrect actually, that I'd say this changes the MU.

Observe: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/b/602960593?t=3h2m56s

This is Mr.Con Con showing off the Cyclone gimp... a lot. vs Mario, he literally can't do anything about it if he recovers low. Up-B can't beat this.

Mario's Up-B Hitbox Size during the middle of the animation is Size 6 (to compare, Doc's Nado is Size 7), and Luigi's Cyclone beats this nearly every time. The only way it wouldn't is if Mario Up-Bs on Frame 3, which gives invincibility, but is also when he first starts the attack so it's highly unrealistic if Luigi is going for this. Up-B on Luigi's feet (his weakpoint) also forces a trade, but Luigi will still get the gimp.

So what is Doc's Up-b Hitbox Size? 7. This means at best, Doc will trade with Luigi more often, but he's still going to drop and has to get out of hitstun before he can Up-B again, in which case it's already too late.

Recovering low vs Luigi is a horrible idea. Stay high and use Doc nado to outprioritize his moves, then grab the ledge.

Oh welp now I'd say it's 5-5

 

[Kisatamura]

We'll be going down the character select screen so I think Peach or Yoshi are next.

I

Slow your roll, Docs.



This is incorrect. So incorrect actually, that I'd say this changes the MU.

Observe: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/b/602960593?t=3h2m56s

This is Mr.Con Con showing off the Cyclone gimp... a lot. vs Mario, he literally can't do anything about it if he recovers low. Up-B can't beat this.

Mario's Up-B Hitbox Size during the middle of the animation is Size 6 (to compare, Doc's Nado is Size 7), and Luigi's Cyclone beats this nearly every time. The only way it wouldn't is if Mario Up-Bs on Frame 3, which gives invincibility, but is also when he first starts the attack so it's highly unrealistic if Luigi is going for this. Up-B on Luigi's feet (his weakpoint) also forces a trade, but Luigi will still get the gimp.

So what is Doc's Up-b Hitbox Size? 7. This means at best, Doc will trade with Luigi more often, but he's still going to drop and has to get out of hitstun before he can Up-B again, in which case it's already too late.

Recovering low vs Luigi is a horrible idea. Stay high and use Doc nado to outprioritize his moves, then grab the ledge.

This is the only thing I can say about Luigi's Cyclone gimp. Doc can kinda do the same, but it's more unreliable since Cyclone forces the opponent down when it connects.

That being said, this makes the matchup more about making sure Luigi can't set up his moves from Dthrow near the edge. Though on stages with walls from the bottom this Luigi gimp is slightly mitigated for both Mario and Doc since they can walljump and potentially recover.

I kind of wanted to do more of a discussion on Luigi since we also found out about Cyclone's gimp ability, but since everyone is going onto Peach, I guess we'll do Peach then... :V

 

[Macchiato]

We'll be going down the character select screen so I think Peach or Yoshi are next.

This is the only thing I can say about Luigi's Cyclone gimp. Doc can kinda do the same, but it's more unreliable since Cyclone forces the opponent down when it connects.

That being said, this makes the matchup more about making sure Luigi can't set up his moves from Dthrow near the edge. Though on stages with walls from the bottom this Luigi gimp is slightly mitigated for both Mario and Doc since they can walljump and potentially recover.

I kind of wanted to do more of a discussion on Luigi since we also found out about Cyclone's gimp ability, but since everyone is going onto Peach, I guess we'll do Peach then... :V

I think we should get a final score first

 

[warionumbah2]

We've been doing all this Luigi stuff in other threads and we already agreed that he does better than Mario, you guys don't have to jump to Peach just cuz i written about her(and a bit of Marf and Luseenah).

Like adding anything more to an already understood MU seems repetitive.

 

[Kisatamura]

This is late I know, but still:

Matchup: Vs Luigi

I'll be quick here since most of the discussion on Luigi was already explained. I might update this later though.

Attributes: Luigi has one of the highest jumps in the game, a relatively faster dash than Doc, one of the worst air speeds in the game, and his trademark traction. Luigi's air speed helps us edgeguard him if he's knocked offstage. Luigi weighs in at 97, being very slightly below Mario and Dr. Mario.

Notes: In neutral, remember that if Luigi is using bair, nair, or uair to approach, he has to commit to those moves since they lack the quick ending lag of dair and fair. However, if Luigi doesn't autocancel any of his aerials not named bair or nair, he'll be stuck in landing lag. Punish him there. His bair is as strong as yours, but is very punishable if Luigi misses or is blocked.

Generally, Luigi has a better rushdown game than Mario and you. Don't give him the chance to throw you: If you get thrown, DI towards Luigi to avoid Dairs or any other setup (Not really avoiding, but reducing his potential followups).

I mentioned earlier that some Luigis think that Dthrow to Fair x2 is a true combo. It isn't at low percents, so UpB if they get greedy but be aware it's a true combo later on. Dthrow to fair to uair is a true combo, however. Also try to tech dair if he spikes you onstage, because dair can lead into other attacks.

As HeroMystic pointed out though, you need to watch out for Cyclone gimps, usually setup by Dthrow. Just don't get thrown near the edge, and try to DI towards Luigi in that case.

Luigi's kill moves are like yours. Bair is like yours, but way riskier if it misses. Nair is guaranteed from Dthrow, but it has to be fresh and around 160.

Luigi Offstage:

If Luigi is edgeguarding you, then try to avoid his bair and other aerial attacks. He might use Cyclone to read your airdodges however, so I'll need more testing on recovering on Luigi. Possibly you can trade with Luigi on Cyclone, but remember that the Cyclone gimp is followed by any of Luigi's attacks, not by strictly Dthrow. (Or at least that video shows)

Luigi's recovery is pretty varied. While his low airspeed can be a hindrance, Luigi is gifted with long, floaty jumps. Cyclone can be used after a double jump or mashed on it's own to greatly increase Luigi's vertical distance. Green Missile is used for horizontal movement, though it can misfire 1/10 in this game. Super Jump Punch is low priority, and moves Luigi up without any horizontal movement, but can sweetspot the ledge either way.

When you have Luigi offstage, it's easier. Despite his good recovery, he lacks high priority moves to discourage you from attacking him. You can always cape the Luigi Missile, but for Cyclone out of jump, watch for when Luigi is done spinning, and hit him with any move of your choice, preferably Tornado.

Securing the KO:

When Luigi's near the kill percents, here's what you can do.

Bair: The quickest, but don't forget that Luigi's bair is much like yours except it ends much later than yours.

Tornado: Offstage, Luigi is vulnerable to this move. Take out his low priority recovery and send him away!

Any other stuff (Smashes, UpB, etc): Always try to send Luigi at a horizontal angle. This'll force the Luigi to use his Cyclone to recover from below, and he's incredibly vulnerable after Cyclone ends. Luigi using Green Missile to recover horizontally is easily reacted to, though you'll just have to hope they don't get the misfire.

Tldr: Doc has better neutral than Luigi who has to wade in and out. Though, Luigi is better upclose and that Cyclone gimp

My Opinion: 40:60 or 45:55 being generous, since Luigi can kill us quicker near the edge than we can, though Luigi is pretty vulnerable recovering too. We need to focus on making sure Luigi makes mistakes while approaching since his neutral is iffy.

General Opinion: 40:60 - 45:55

Moves to look out for:

DThrow: This is self-explanatory. Luigi's throw is at a fixed knockback unlike Mario and Doc's, so he'll always get combos. Needless to say, just make sure he doesn't grab you in the first place or else you'll be subject to a million followups. If you get grabbed DI towards Luigi to minimize the amount of followups he can do.

Bair: Same deal as Mario and yours, but Luigi's can kill like Doc's, though it's ending lag in the air is atrocious. Anytime he misses this or is blocked, punish him. Please.

Fair: Luigi has really fast ending lag after this, not mention it knocks you away. Use something like bair or Tornado to stop it. As a side note, if the Luigi screws up and this is not autocanceled, punish Luigi.

Dair: Luigi's meteor is worth looking at for several reasons. It has really fast ending lag, so Luigi can spike you onstage and immediately followup afterwards. The second use is the other hitbox where you get sent at a diagonal angle. Pretty much you'll need to stop Luigi from using this when he's ready to kill. An USmash from below can sometimes hit Luigi, but you'll need to be away from Luigi in order to knock him out of dair. Once again, if Luigi lands without autocanceling you'll need to punish him immediately.

Nair: Luigi's sex kick is one of the strongest in the game, and sends you at a vertical angle, prime for juggling. Most Luigis will try to use it as an KO option at high percents because Boss likes to do that. Either way, KOs by nair will usually be setup by Dthrow. Because it'll usually be used for fishing for KOs, you should try to DI so that Luigi's nair will miss.

Smash attacks (Namely FSmash and DSmash): While FSmash is low ranged, it's great for KOing. DSmash isn't as powerful as FSmash, but it's incredibly fast and sends the opponent at a diagonal angle. Block this and punish Luigi.

Fireball: Luigi has a rare case of using a projectile that has little commitment to it. While it's not incredibly great, it can be used to annoy and pester you. Either way, because of it's horizontal movement Luigi can use fireballs to block a section of the stage. If you want to get creative, use your pills from a full jump so that they force Luigi to avoid it, hopefully making him move to you, but in neutral where he has to commit to something.

Green Missile: Luigi's side recovery has low priority and is easily caped. Tornado it, bair it, cape it, whatever you want. If they get the misfire.. prepare for it via cape or spotdodge.

Super Jump Punch: While Luigi can sometimes combo into it from Dthrow, this is mainly dependent on the opponent's DI. Either way, nobody likes dying from a Fire Jump Punch so try to DI away so that Luigi can't get the sweetspot. Really, you'll see this if Luigi is really upclose and you've messed up.

Luigi Cyclone: Cyclone is really something. It acts like a laggier but more maneuverable version of your Tornado, but offstage it can be used to gimp depending on the character's weight and floatiness. On stage, Luigi may use this as a surprise movement option. If that's the case, block it because when Luigi is done with the move, you have a lot of time to punish him.

Offstage though, Cyclone can gimp. Really, the ways you can avoid this tend to be either recovering high so that Luigi has to catch you, or using a combo breaker to avoid Luigi setting up this move.

When used for recovery, it can be mashed to gain some pretty big height. However, Luigi has to commit to this move when recovering so when it ends, Luigi is bait to edgeguarding.

 

[Macchiato]

This is late I know, but still:

Matchup: Vs Luigi

I'll be quick here since most of the discussion on Luigi was already explained. I might update this later though.

Attributes: Luigi has the second highest jump in the game, a relatively faster dash than Doc, one of the worst air speeds in the game, and has his trademark traction. Luigi's air speed helps us edgeguard him if he's knocked offstage.

Notes: In neutral, remember that if Luigi is using bair, nair, or uair to approach, he has to commit to those moves since they lack the quick ending lag of dair and fair. However, if Luigi doesn't autocancel any of his aerials not named bair or nair, he'll be stuck in landing lag. Punish him there. His bair is as strong as yours, but is very punishable if Luigi misses or is blocked.

Generally, Luigi has a better rushdown game than Mario and you. Don't give him the chance to throw you: If you get thrown, DI towards Luigi to avoid Dairs or any other setup (Not really avoiding, but reducing his potential followups).

I mentioned earlier that some Luigis think that Dthrow to Fair x2 is a true combo. It isn't, so UpB if they get greedy. Dthrow to fair to uair is a true combo, however. Also try to tech dair if he spikes you onstage, because dair can lead into other attacks.

As HeroMystic pointed out though, you need to watch out for Cyclone gimps, usually setup by Dthrow. Just don't get thrown near the edge, and try to DI towards Luigi in that case.

Luigi's kill moves are like yours. Bair is like yours, but way riskier if it misses. Nair is guaranteed from Dthrow, but it has to be fresh and around 160.

Luigi Offstage:

If Luigi is edgeguarding you, then try to avoid his bair and other aerial attacks. He might use Cyclone to read your airdodges however, so I'll need more testing on recovering on Luigi. Possibly you can trade with Luigi on Cyclone, but remember that the Cyclone gimp is followed by any of Luigi's attacks, not by strictly Dthrow. (Or at least that video shows)

When you have Luigi offstage, it's easier. Despite his good recovery, he lacks high priority moves to discourage you from attacking him. You can always cape the Luigi Missile, but for Cyclone out of jump, watch for when Luigi is done spinning, and hit him with any move of your choice, preferably Tornado.

Tldr: Doc has better neutral than Luigi who has to wade in and out. Though, Luigi is better upclose and that Cyclone gimp

My Opinion: 40:60 or 45:55 being generous, since Luigi can kill us quicker near the edge than we can, though Luigi is pretty vulnerable recovering too.

General Opinion:

I calculated the scores altogether and its 5-5 or 5.5-4.5 depending if yours are 4-6 or 4.5-5.5. I think it's time to fill out the chart and whatnot

 

[Gunla]

I've added Luigi and Mario to the MU Chart.