Compendium of Landing Lag Information for Smash 4

[ItsRainingGravy]

The purpose of this thread is for collecting & posting factual information. For opinions regarding landing lag, go here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/is-a...nding-lag-on-aerials-really-necessary.363350/


Landing lag. Quite a popular topic around these parts, I see. For quite a few people, this will make or break Smash 4 for you. And, I have seen countless topics discussing landing lag. Usually, it just ends up in circles. However, none of the topics I have encountered thus far have compiled a list of information in regards to what we DO know about landing lag. One common misconception that I see is that some people believe that landing lag is slow across the board. But from what I have seen in regards to actual video footage and gifs, the game itself proves otherwise. Landing lag appears to be something that is not universal in Smash 4. So, why not have a topic that actually lists the landing lag for each character's aerials? This would allow for a more concise understanding for what aerials DO have a lot of landing lag, and which ones don't.

Sure, the only things we can go off of right now is demo footage, but Smash 4 is right around the corner. Even if some things within this topic are changed upon the final release, this topic can still be used once the game finally comes out. And the information in this thread could, potentially, be used to help benefit the competitive community. So, without further ado, I present to you the rules of this thread:


Rules of this Thread
1) When posting information in regards to a certain character's aerial, you are required to post video footage or a gif showing the landing lag of said move. This is to help provide accurate information to the topic.
2) As stated at the beginning of this topic, this topic is strictly for posting factual information (with video/gif proof). Please refrain from clogging up the thread with opinions in regards to landing lag being necessary for Smash, as there is already a thread for that. Opinions are fine, but keep them to a minimum here.
3) When posting a video, please provide a timestamp directing the viewers to the move in which you are providing information for.
4) Try to post videos/gifs of at least decent quality.
5) It may take some time before a submission is accepted to the list. Do note that not all submissions will be accepted, especially if there is already a gif/video of the move in question. This is to help reduce the amount of clutter within the list, while still providing key information.
6) As always, try to keep things civil.
7) More rules may be added over time.


Example of how to make a post in this topic
1) After posting a link to a video/gif, state the name of the character.
2) State the aerial(s) that they are using.
3) If posting a video, state what time the aerials in question happen.
4) State the landing lag for the aerial(s) using one of the following statements: "Virtually Lagless", "Little to no lag", "Some lag", "Laggy", "Very laggy", or "Extremely Laggy". Granted, these statements are subjective to opinion, though it could provide a quick idea on which end of the spectrum the move's lag resides. I will be taking a look at all of the moves that are provided (when I have time), and when adding a video/gif to the list, I may change this statement if I feel as though it is necessary.
5) While this is not necessary, you can provide the amount of frames of lag for an aerial, though it would also be appreciated if you provided some form of proof in regards to your knowledge of the frames for the move. Also note that when doing this, rule 4 still applies (for those who aren't keen in regards to frame data).
6) When posting several gifs at once (like I do...), please use the collapse/spoiler tag to cut down on space on the topic page.
7) Remember, the purpose of these posts is to provide the amount of landing lag for the aerials. Any other information in regards to the aerials that you post will probably not be accepted.


With that out of the way, here is the list:
[collapse=Mario Series][collapse=Mario]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17278449

Up Air: 14 frames
Forward Air: 30 frames
Neutral Air: 12 frames?
Down Air: 22 frames?
Back Air: 12 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Luigi]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ation-for-smash-4.363848/page-2#post-17312100

Forward Air: 18-20 frames
Neutral Air: 14 frames
Down Air: 16-18 frames?
Back Air: 14 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Peach]


[/collapse][collapse=Rosalina]


[/collapse][collapse=Yoshi]


[/collapse][collapse=Bowser]


[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=DK Series][collapse=Donkey Kong]


[/collapse][collapse=Diddy Kong]


[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=Pokemon Series][collapse=Pikachu]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ation-for-smash-4.363848/page-2#post-17307149

Neutral Air: 26 frames (6-8 auto canceled)
Up Air: 4 frames? [INCONCLUSIVE DATA]
Forward Air: 14-16 frames (4-8 auto canceled)
Down Air: 44 frames
Back Air: 40 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Charizard]


[/collapse][collapse=Lucario]


[/collapse][collapse=Greninja]


[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=Kirby Series][collapse=Kirby]


[/collapse]
[collapse=King DeDeDe]


[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=Legend of Zelda Series][collapse=Link]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ation-for-smash-4.363848/page-2#post-17294274

Up Air: 18-20 frames
Forward Air: 12 frames
Nair: 12 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Dair: 32 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Toon Link]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17281105

Zair: 28 frames (Autocanceled = 6 frames)
Up Air: 20-22 frames
Forward Air: 16-20 frames
Neutral Air: 14-16 frames
Down Air: 40-44 frames
Back Air: 10-12 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Zelda]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ation-for-smash-4.363848/page-3#post-17332660

Neutral Air: 24-26 frames
Forward Air: 22-24 frames
Back Air: 22-24 frames
Down Air: 24 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Sheik]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17293710

Aerial Needles: 4 frames
Forward Air: 8 frames
Down Air: 42-44 frames
Up Air: 30 frames
Neutral Air: 12 frames
Back Air: 12 frames
[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=Fire Emblem Series][collapse=Marth]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17280796

Up Air: 20 frames
Forward Air: 18 frames
Neutral Air: 14-16 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Lucina]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17261452

Neutral Air: 12 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Robin]


[/collapse][collapse=Ike]


[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=Kid Icarus Series][collapse=Pit]


[/collapse][collapse=Palutena]


[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=Star Fox Series][collapse=Fox McCloud]



[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=Metroid Series][collapse=Samus]


[/collapse][collapse=Zero Suit Samus]


[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=3rd Party Characters][collapse=Sonic]


[/collapse][collapse=Mega Man]


[/collapse][collapse=Pac Man]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17265177

Forward Air?: 14-16 frames

[/collapse][/collapse]
[collapse=Ungrouped Characers][collapse=Captain Falcon]


[/collapse][collapse=Little Mac]


[/collapse][collapse=Olimar]


[/collapse][collapse=Villager]


[/collapse][collapse=Wii Fit Trainer]


[/collapse][collapse=Mii Fighters]


[/collapse][/collapse]

@Mods: Feel free to add information to the opening post if you desire, as the purpose of this thread is to collect information. Also, I request your assistance in advance if things somehow get out of hand in this topic. Thank you.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

List of characters/moves that have been covered in this topic thus far:
[collapse=Mario]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17278449

Up Air: 14 frames
Forward Air: 30 frames
Neutral Air: 12 frames?
Down Air: 22 frames?
Back Air: 12 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Luigi]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ation-for-smash-4.363848/page-2#post-17312100

Forward Air: 18-20 frames
Neutral Air: 14 frames
Down Air: 16-18 frames?
Back Air: 14 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Pikachu]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ation-for-smash-4.363848/page-2#post-17307149

Neutral Air: 26 frames (6-8 auto canceled)
Up Air: 4 frames? [INCONCLUSIVE DATA]
Forward Air: 14-16 frames (4-8 auto canceled)
Down Air: 44 frames
Back Air: 40 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Link]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ation-for-smash-4.363848/page-2#post-17294274

Up Air: 18-20 frames
Forward Air: 12 frames
Nair: 12 frames
Bair: 10 frames
Dair: 32 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Toon Link]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17281105

Zair: 28 frames (Autocanceled = 6 frames)
Up Air: 20-22 frames
Forward Air: 16-20 frames
Neutral Air: 14-16 frames
Down Air: 40-44 frames
Back Air: 10-12 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Zelda]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...ation-for-smash-4.363848/page-3#post-17332660

Neutral Air: 24-26 frames
Forward Air: 22-24 frames
Back Air: 22-24 frames
Down Air: 24 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Sheik]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17293710

Aerial Needles: 4 frames
Forward Air: 8 frames
Down Air: 42-44 frames
Up Air: 30 frames
Neutral Air: 12 frames
Back Air: 12 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Marth]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17280796

Up Air: 20 frames
Forward Air: 18 frames
Neutral Air: 14-16 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Lucina]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17261452

Neutral Air: 12 frames
[/collapse][collapse=Pac Man]

http://smashboards.com/threads/comp...information-for-smash-4.363848/#post-17265177

Forward Air?: 14-16 frames
[/collapse]

 

[κomıc]

No shade, but another thread for "Landing Lag"? It'll be interesting to see how things turn out in this thread and the potential information but man, that landing lag is villainous.

 

[Senario]

Good luck on the thread man, I am not the one to spend the time sifting through data and am more of a listener to the results but good luck. Frame data plzzzzzz.

 

[Bauske]

I'm actually really interested in this. Right now it's hard to gauge because all we have are videos shown to us, but once we get the game in our hands, this information will all be ready to dissect. That's the part I'm excited for.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

No shade, but another thread for "Landing Lag"? It'll be interesting to see how things turn out in this thread and the potential information but man, that landing lag is villainous.

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/217/9/d/yes_quite_by_open_circle-d6gu6vv.png

I figured it would be nice to give the community a topic in which we could work together on something, which is the goal of this thread (along with collecting information of course).

I'll also be posting my own submissions to the list occasionally when I am not busy/relaxing. And, any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[κomıc]

Well, I'm going to be envious of anyone having access to the Japanese version of the game next month...

Why couldn't it be a global launch like Mario Kart 8 or Pokemon X/Y

 

[Senario]

Well, I'm going to be envious of anyone having access to the Japanese version of the game next month...

Why couldn't it be a global launch like Mario Kart 8 or Pokemon X/Y

Lol I'm going to be watching M2k's stream for that. He said he is getting it to stream (as expected). You want specific game details he is one of the go to guys lol.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I know this is perhaps a strange question, but is there a way we can tell what the FPS of a video is? I would like to help, but I need to know which sources I can and can't rely on.

To give an example of what I mean, a lot of folks were talking about the landing lag on Lucina's Nair and the conclusion from what I could see was that either A. The attack was autocancelled or B. The trailer was running at 30 FPS and not 60 FPS thus her landing lag would actually be twice as long as it looked.

 

[Tristan_win]

This is a very ambitious project for a demo of a game that comes out in 2 months.

 

[Big-Cat]

We don't even have frame data yet.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

We don't even have frame data yet.

Which is why this thread was made...?

 

[Big-Cat]

There's no point in trying to go off of footage other than thoeries, but nothing factual unless we can test things over and over under different conditions.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I know this is perhaps a strange question, but is there a way we can tell what the FPS of a video is? I would like to help, but I need to know which sources I can and can't rely on.

To give an example of what I mean, a lot of folks were talking about the landing lag on Lucina's Nair and the conclusion from what I could see was that either A. The attack was autocancelled or B. The trailer was running at 30 FPS and not 60 FPS thus her landing lag would actually be twice as long as it looked.

To my understanding, most Youtube videos run at about 30fps. So, I would say that option B is the more likely scenario. So, let's assume that the youtube video for Lucina's (and Robin's) trailer was running at 30fps. The next step would be looking at her Nair frame by frame. This can be done using this website: https://imgflip.com/gifgenerator

What I am posting below is an example image that was created using the above website. Sure, it's choppy and not that great (I'm the one to blame for that...), but it gets the job done.



What we see here is Lucina's landing lag after her Nair. The moment of contact upon the ground is indicated by a puff of smoke. This smoke lasts for about 5 "frames" before disappearing. This is to be assumed as non-interruptable landing lag after her Nair. On the 6th "frame", we see her begin to stand up, but with her knee poking outwards. This, too, is also probably non-interruptable, though there could be the slight chance of the opposite being true. On the 7th "frame", she appears to be fully standing upright, but is ever-so-slightly hunching over from the very last frames of the animation. Unlike the first 6 "frames", this seems to be something that could have IASA (interrupted as soon as) frames, meaning that the animation could probably be canceled at around this moment.

Now, with the above assumption that the trailer was running at about 30fps, that would mean that we would have to double the amount of "frames" in order to get the correct amount. With 6 "frames" most likely being non-interruptable, we come up with this result:

Lucina's Nair: 10-14 frames of landing lag. (Most likely 12 frames)

I would say that 12 frames of landing lag would be a fair guess for her Nair. Granted, I am no expert at this. Marth's Nair in Melee had 15 frames of landing lag (7 when L-Canceled), so I will probably test and compare his Nair from Melee with Lucina's Nair whenever I get the chance.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Okay, thanks for the explanation!

To start off simple, I decided to go with the character trailers (instead of player-recorded Best Buy footage, for example). I made this GIF on the assumption that all Youtube videos are 30FPS and then slowed down the GIF for easier viewing.

Pacman
Neutral aerial(?)
Appears to have landing lag animation of 6-8 frames (he starts rolling frame 9). Double that to compensate for the framerate and that gives us 12-16 frames of lag.
Some lag.

 

[Gidy]

TL;DR, but I know that little mac players don't need to worry about landing lag

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

TL;DR, but I know that little mac players don't need to worry about landing lag

His only remotely useful aerial (NAir) auto-cancels anyway.

 

[κomıc]

I still can't get over Pac-Man being in Smash Bros. I sometimes forget he is in... Same for Megaman...

So happy.

But sad that my Bomberman isn't going to make the cut (in the back of my mind I hope I jinx it for the better lol)

So, question: Is there "landing lag" in that aerial? It is hard to tell with the slow down.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Okay, thanks for the explanation!

No problem. And, your post looks perfect. Well done.

Decided to go with a basic character/my main character first.

[collapse=Mario's Landing Lag]Character: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PSfH7IfWug



Mario
Up Aerial
Appears to have almost exactly 14-16 frames of landing lag. Jumps during the exact frame in which the landing lag ends, and Mario returns to a neutral stance. Meaning that frames 15-16 most likely have IASA. Around the same landing lag as Melee (15 frames/7 L-Canceled).
Some Lag


Mario
Forward Air
Appears to have almost exactly 30 frames of landing lag. Jumps during the exact frame in which the landing lag ends, and Mario returns to a neutral stance. Slower than Melee (21 frames/10 L-Canceled).
Very Laggy


Mario
Neutral Air (late hit)
Appears to have around 12 frames of langing lag. Faster than Melee? (16 frames/8 L-Canceled)
Little to No Lag


Mario
Down Air
Somewhat hard to tell, but appears to have around 22 frames of landing lag? Around the same as Melee. (23 frames/11 L-Canceled)
Very Laggy


Mario
Back Air
Okay, now this one is interesting. Appears to have 12-14 frames of landing lag, but Mario immediately uses a forward tilt on the 7th "frame" of the animation. This means that frames 13-14 most likely have IASA on them. So only the first 6 "frames" would count as landing lag, for a total of around 12 frames of lag. Faster than Melee. (15 frames/7 L-Canceled)
Little to No Lag[/collapse]

Smash Wii U vs Melee Comparison for Mario
Up Air: 14-16 vs 15. Around the same.
Forward Air: 30 vs 21. Melee is much faster.
Neutral Air: 12? vs 16. Smash 4 is faster.
Down Air: 22? vs 23. Around the same.
Back Air: 12 vs 15. Smash 4 is faster.

So then, if you don't count L-Canceling, Mario's aerials overall have less landing lag in Smash 4 compared to Melee. (Besides Forward Air)

Reference for Mario's landing lag in Melee: http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-hitboxes-and-frame-data.312343/

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Decided to do a controversial character next, in regards to landing lag. Brace yourself, gentlemen.

[collapse=Marth's Landing Lag]Character: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ej06eP_uY


Marth
Up Air
A bit tricky to time. Only start counting "frames" whenever the smoke appears on the ground. Seems to last 20-22 frames, with frames 23-24 potentially having IASA. Slower than Melee. (15 frames/7 L-Canceled)
Laggy




Marth
Forward Air
This is the big one that people have been complaining about. Well, less about landing lag and more about not being able to double Fair from a short hop, but still. Seems to have about 8-10 "frames" of landing lag, meaning that it has around 16-20 frames of landing lag. Most likely 18. Slower than Melee. (15 frames/7 L-Canceled)
Laggy



Marth
Neutral Air
This one is a little bit surprising. The reason why is because Lucina's Nair seemed to only have about 10-14 frames of landing lag. Most likely 12. However with Marth, we see what appears to be a full 14-16 frames of lag. This could be due to many reasons. One, being that Lucina's landing lag was at the very end of her Nair animation, while Marth's is towards the beginning or middle. Two, could this be a possible character difference? My gut is telling me it is most likely the former, but who knows. Either way you slice it, the landing lag on his Nair is very close to Melee's. (15 frames/7 L-Canceled)
Some Lag[/collapse]

Smash Wii U vs Melee Comparison for Marth
Up Air: 20 vs 15. Melee is faster.
Forward Air: 18 vs 15. Melee is faster.
Neutral Air: 14-16 vs 15. Around the same.
Back Air: ??? vs 24. TBA
Down Air: ??? vs 32. TBA

So far, looks like Melee Marth is faster. I assume Marth might be the reason why many people feel the landing lag in Smash 4 is slower as a whole in comparison to Melee. I feel as though this may just be character specific, but only time will tell. I shall finish up Back Air and Down Air sometime soon. Also, I have added all posts up to this point to the main post.

Reference for Marth's landing lag in Melee: http://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/

Edit: Used spoiler tags to take up less of the page, for your convenience.

 

[Senario]

So far, looks like Melee Marth is faster. I assume Marth might be the reason why many people feel the landing lag in Smash 4 is slower as a whole in comparison to Melee. I feel as though this may just be character specific, but only time will tell. I shall finish up Back Air and Down Air sometime soon. Also, I have added all posts up to this point to the main post.

Well that and L canceling is gone. Most competitive players of project M and Melee are used to the half landing lag as part of what makes the offense game so....being initially slower than melee without L cancelling is pretty dang long.

Edit: Personal QQ, T_T He uses a dagger now, not a sword.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

Wait, is Marth's UAir landing lag really that long? Huh. That's quite surprising. I was certain it auto-cancelled! Huh.

 

[chrisall76]

This is a nice idea, I'll see if I can help a bit. Nothing to do recently anyway lol

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

So, question: Is there "landing lag" in that aerial? It is hard to tell with the slow down.

All aerials have landing lag, unless autocancelled and even then, it's just a different type of landing lag lol. Anyway see how when Pacman touches the ground a puff of smoke appears and he goes into an animation where he puts one hand on the ground? That's the landing lag of the aerial attack. Well part of it anyway, I believe it continues a little bit afterwards as well but I'm not an expert on the subject.

Wait, is Marth's UAir landing lag really that long? Huh. That's quite surprising. I was certain it auto-cancelled! Huh.

Well if it was autocancelled then there'd only be 4 frames IIRC (unless how autocancelling works was changed in Smash 4 obvi). Also it can probably be autocancelled regardless haha.
------------------------------------
I'm going to steal your format, Gravy, because I'm a jerk

Spoiler

Toon Link
Z-Aerial
Although there could be something else at play here, Zair looks a LOT laggier this time around. The first GIF has a landing animation of around 28 (instead of the 2 frames of landing lag it had in Brawl)! Thankfully it can still be autocancelled, as shown in the second GIF.
Very laggy

Toon Link
Up Aerial
20-22 frames of landing lag approx. Brawl's had 21.
Laggy

Toon Link
Forward Aerial
Has 18 frames of lag, as did Brawl's version of the move.
Laggy

Toon Link
Neutral Aerial
Has 14-16 landing lag frames I'd say. Brawl's was 15.
Some lag

Toon Link
Down Aerial
Has 38 frames of landing lag in this GIF. Brawl's was 40. One of those aerials that really makes you wish L-cancelling was in the game lol. By far the most landing lag of any of Toon Link's aerial attacks.
EXTREMELY laggy

Toon Link
Back Aerial
Appears to have 10-12 frames of landing lag. If you liked spamming this move in Brawl, you should be pleased to know it was 10 there and thus is just as spammable here. Shortest landing lag of all of TL's aerials.
Little to no lag

Really not much to say here; it's Brawl Toon Link translated into Smash 4. He's often cited as one of the least changed characters and this holds true with his landing lag as well. Zair no longer has the mind-blowingly low 2 frames of landing lag that it used to but that's about it.

SSBB Toon Link frame data thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/toon-link-frame-data.193918/

EDIT: I forgot that autocancel animations are actually 30 frames long, it's just that it can be interrupted as soon as frame 4. Herpyderpderp, Rascal don't know how autocancelling works lolololol. So my point is that it's possible that Zair only autocancels. Well either way, I'll leave it as is because if it indeed only autocancels, then I've got GIFs showing both the full animation and the interrupt.

 

[D-idara]

No problem. And, your post looks perfect. Well done.

Decided to go with a basic character/my main character first.

[collapse=Mario's Landing Lag]Character: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PSfH7IfWug



Mario
Up Aerial
Appears to have almost exactly 14-16 frames of landing lag. Jumps during the exact frame in which the landing lag ends, and Mario returns to a neutral stance. Meaning that frames 15-16 most likely have IASA. Around the same landing lag as Melee (15 frames/7 L-Canceled).
Some Lag


Mario
Forward Air
Appears to have almost exactly 30 frames of landing lag. Jumps during the exact frame in which the landing lag ends, and Mario returns to a neutral stance. Slower than Melee (21 frames/10 L-Canceled).
Very Laggy


Mario
Neutral Air (late hit)
Appears to have around 12 frames of langing lag. Faster than Melee? (16 frames/8 L-Canceled)
Little to No Lag


Mario
Down Air
Somewhat hard to tell, but appears to have around 22 frames of landing lag? Around the same as Melee. (23 frames/11 L-Canceled)
Very Laggy


Mario
Back Air
Okay, now this one is interesting. Appears to have 12-14 frames of landing lag, but Mario immediately uses a forward tilt on the 7th "frame" of the animation. This means that frames 13-14 most likely have IASA on them. So only the first 6 "frames" would count as landing lag, for a total of around 12 frames of lag. Faster than Melee. (15 frames/7 L-Canceled)
Little to No Lag[/collapse]

Smash Wii U vs Melee Comparison for Mario
Up Air: 14-16 vs 15. Around the same.
Forward Air: 30 vs 21. Melee is much faster.
Neutral Air: 12? vs 16. Smash 4 is faster.
Down Air: 22? vs 23. Around the same.
Back Air: 12 vs 15. Smash 4 is faster.

So then, if you don't count L-Canceling, Mario's aerials overall have less landing lag in Smash 4 compared to Melee. (Besides Forward Air)

Reference for Mario's landing lag in Melee: http://smashboards.com/threads/mario-hitboxes-and-frame-data.312343/

Then again, I can see why F-Air has a lot of landing lag, it's always been a high risk-reward move. Same with moves like both Link's D-Airs. Although I still think there should be a little less, a few adjustments here and there and we might have a set of attacks that balance commitment and offense.

 

[JV5Chris]

Then again, I can see why F-Air has a lot of landing lag, it's always been a high risk-reward move.

You know what move also has 30 frames of landing lag?

I'd classify adding 8-10 frames of extra landing lag as complete overkill here. Keep in mind too Mario's n-air has historically been the safer and stronger option (later frames deal a lot more damage). Mario's f-air already had limited uses, even if it's stronger now this really detracts from the move.

 

[Terotrous]

Mario's Fair has always been more of an air combo finisher, though, so that massive landing lag doesn't really limit its usefulness. Anyone using F-air as air to ground is a dope and deserves to get shield grabbed.

 

[JV5Chris]

With L-canceling considered, I felt that Project M found a pretty good balance for the move. I'd rather not see it become even more of a one trick pony. There's really no a good reason for such a sharp increase in landing lag.

 

[Terotrous]

With L-canceling considered, I felt that Project M found a pretty good balance for the move. I'd rather not see it become even more of a one trick pony. There's really no a good reason for such a sharp increase in landing lag.

Even in Project M the only time I ever use Mario's Fair is after Dthrow. It's fine for it to be a one-trick pony, he has a well-balanced set of aerials that covers most situations (uair for combos, nair or dair for approaching, bair for air to air)

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know what you are using to collect data, but VGBootcamp has a lot of the complete character move sets on youtube. All of the videos are smooth and might be good to judge the frames.

 

[Senario]

Even in Project M the only time I ever use Mario's Fair is after Dthrow. It's fine for it to be a one-trick pony, he has a well-balanced set of aerials that covers most situations (uair for combos, nair or dair for approaching, bair for air to air)

Just have to throw this out there. This is not the thread for opinions of what is balanced or not. And it isnt a topic about how you use moves and whether or not the lag is justified... its mostly a gathering data topic with light discussion.

Cant wait for info on more frame data. In particular I am interested in robin but sadly we dont have enough footage.

 

[Terotrous]

Just have to throw this out there. This is not the thread for opinions of what is balanced or not. And it isnt a topic about how you use moves and whether or not the lag is justified... its mostly a gathering data topic with light discussion.

Cant wait for info on more frame data. In particular I am interested in robin but sadly we dont have enough footage.

I get that, I'm just pointing out that landing lag on Fair =/= Mario / Smash 4 confirmed garbage. Some moves are okay with significant landing lag if you rarely use them to strike grounded opponents.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I don't know what you are using to collect data, but VGBootcamp has a lot of the complete character move sets on youtube. All of the videos are smooth and might be good to judge the frames.

We've been using the VGBC moveset videos for most of the data collected so far. The only exceptions to this are the Lucina and Pacman clips, which come from their respective reveal trailers, and the clip of Mario's back aerial which I believe is from the Roundtable footage.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

and the clip of Mario's back aerial which I believe is from the Roundtable footage.

Correct. It was the fastest example I could find.

I may hold off on finishing up Marth for now. There's another character I have in mind that I plan to do next.

 

[chrisall76]

Can you offer a bit more info on using imgflip? Can't seem to get it to get one frame a second correctly.

 

[JV5Chris]

Even in Project M the only time I ever use Mario's Fair is after Dthrow. It's fine for it to be a one-trick pony, he has a well-balanced set of aerials that covers most situations (uair for combos, nair or dair for approaching, bair for air to air)

It is a situational tool, but f-air is also perfectly viable move under general circumstances. Mixing up your approach with an f-air from time to time isn't going to break you in PM. Neither will using it as a retreating aerial. I'm not saying throw caution to the wind as it does have a little more risk, but that's pretty marginal and possible to work past with good spacing.

I get that, I'm just pointing out that landing lag on Fair =/= Mario / Smash 4 confirmed garbage. Some moves are okay with significant landing lag if you rarely use them to strike grounded opponents.

When did I say Mario/Smash 4 were garbage? I'm just a bit critical of 30 frames of landing lag no one can give a good reason for. You mention some moves are ok with significant landing lag so I have to ask, what is it about this specific move that calls for it? Feel free to continue talking about long landing lag in broad terms but keep in mind I'm here to discuss this particular case.

 

[JamietheAuraUser]

When did I say Mario/Smash 4 were garbage? I'm just a bit critical of 30 frames of landing lag no one can give a good reason for. You mention some moves are ok with significant landing lag so I have to ask, what is it about this specific move that calls for it? Feel free to continue talking about long landing lag in broad terms but keep in mind I'm here to discuss this particular case.

The question that immediately comes up is just how strong is that meteor smash? The massive landing lag might be a deliberate balance decision in order to limit your combo potential out of a ground bounce. If the hitstun from the ground bounce is really crazy high due to the meteor smash's power, the landing lag might be there in order to prevent you from, say, charging an FSmash that the opponent cannot DI away from and then just blasting them for an easy KO.

 

[JV5Chris]

The question that immediately comes up is just how strong is that meteor smash? The massive landing lag might be a deliberate balance decision in order to limit your combo potential out of a ground bounce. If the hitstun from the ground bounce is really crazy high due to the meteor smash's power, the landing lag might be there in order to prevent you from, say, charging an FSmash that the opponent cannot DI away from and then just blasting them for an easy KO.

Thank you for addressing the move. It is a very hypothetical situation, but we'd need to see examples to know for sure. While setups do exist from bounces in previous Smash games it's always been very % based. I do doubt a charged f-smash would work out, but possibly an aerial follow up could happen with moderate landing lag. Not suggesting that's a bad thing, btw. I don't know what's changed with bounces in Smash 4 so it's hard to say for sure.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Can you offer a bit more info on using imgflip? Can't seem to get it to get one frame a second correctly.

1) After loading a video on to imgflip, click "More Options". It is next to the "Reverse GIF" checkbox.
2) Increase the FPS to 30 for best quality. You can also maximize the size of the gif to make it easier to see.
3) Reduce the speed from 100% to around 4% to 6%. This allows the gif to go frame by frame, but still keep it at a moderate pace for viewing.
4) Try to keep the gif around 2 seconds long or less, preferably 1.5 seconds or just a single second. This is also to improve the quality of the gif.

If the gif is a bit blurry, don't worry. As long as we can distinguish the characters, the move being used, and the full landing lag (smoke + additional frames before standing/neutral animation) of the character; then it should be good enough to record data from.

Also, thank you for wanting to help contribute. Any and all help is certainly appreciated.

Going to work on another character as soon as I get back later tonight.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Time to do everyone's favorite ninja from Melee! Let's just say that her results are rather surprising!

[collapse=Sheik's landing lag]Character: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Clc5U2DKzsU

Sheik
Down Air
My lord, does this attack lag. It is very hard to tell the moment of impact, but it is roughly 21-22 "frames" long. That translates to a whopping 42-44 frames of landing lag (if I am correct in my theory anyways). The above image is from Brawl, since it is a more direct comparison for her current Dair than Melee, because of how she falls when using it. In that image, she appears to only have 26 frames of landing lag in Brawl. My suggestion to would-be Sheik players of Smash 4 is to try to avoid using this move, because you are more than likely to get punished. (20 frames in Melee/10 L-Canceled)
Extremely Laggy

[collapse=Sheik's Forward Air]


[/collapse]
Sheik
Forward Air
Sheik's Fair is godlike. Landing lag animation seems to last 7 "frames", but it seems as though she can auto-cancel out of those last 3 "frames". This means that the total amount of landing lag for this move is around 8 frames, which is how fast it was when L-Canceled in Melee! Another scary thing is that it might even be faster than that! Unlike her Dair, I highly recommend Sheik players to use this move, assuming it doesn't get nerfed upon release. (16 frames in Melee/8 L-Canceled)
Little to No Lag



Sheik
Up Air
Aaaand back to a move that you probably don't want to use near the ground. Seems to have around 15 "frames" of landing lag, or about 30 frames total. Slower than Melee. (24 frames/12 L-Canceled)
Very Laggy



Sheik
Neutral Air
Aaaand back to a move that you probably DO want to use with Sheik. Seems to have around 12 frames of landing lag, which is faster than Melee. (16 frames/8 L-Canceled)
Little to No Lag


Sheik
Back Air
A little hard to time, but this move also seems to have exactly 12 frames of landing lag. Which is also faster than Melee. (16 frames/8 L-Canceled)
Little to No Lag


Sheik
Aerial Needles
And here is a nice surprise for everyone! :D The player was holding shield when using this move, meaning that Sheik only has 4 frames of landing lag with her aerial needles.
Virtually Lagless[/collapse]

Smash Wii U vs Melee Comparison for Sheik
Down Air: 42-44 vs 20. Melee is MUCH faster. (Brawl is 26 frames)
Forward Air: 8 vs 16. Smash 4 is twice as fast! (Melee's L-Canceled Fair was 8 frames!)
Up Air: 30 vs 24. Melee is faster.
Neutral Air: 12 vs 16. Smash 4 is faster.
Back Air: 12 vs 16. Smash 4 is faster.
Bonus: Aerial Needles only have 4 frames of landing lag in Smash 4. Which is 1/15th of a second.

Sheik's landing lag seems to be a collection of extremes. Her Dair and Uair probably won't do you many favors (ESPECIALLY Dair), but all of her other moves seem to be pure gold. Nair and Bair seem to be right in-between Melee's initial lag, and L-Canceled lag. While Fair matches Sheik's L-Canceled Fair in Melee, and her Aerial Needles auto-cancel upon landing. Does this say something about how Smash 4 is going to turn out overall? Where some moves are going to be practically useless due to landing lag, while others are going to be similar in function if not completely matching Melee's landing lag? Only time will tell. One thing is for sure though. If no changes are going to be made for Sheik, she is going to be an extremely effective and fast-paced fighter, and is going to see a LOT of tournament play.

Reference for Sheik's landing lag in Melee: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-hitboxes-and-frame-data.299984/

Edit: Added Sheik and Toon Link to the list.