Important Diddy Grab Immunity Glitch 1.1.1

[ewItsBoo]

There's a new bug with Diddy making it impossible to grab him if you hit his shield with a multi-hit move.

Currently the only ways to reset it is to kill him, or hit his shield again with a non-multi-hit move.

 

[LancerStaff]

I imagine he's going to be banned or performing the tech will cost a stock.

 

[JesterJaded]

It's silly, really. What is the Diddy player going to do, not shield at all and expect to win?

 

[LancerStaff]

It's silly, really. What is the Diddy player going to do, not shield at all and expect to win?

If he shields the whole multihit attack I believe it won't take effect.

 

[JesterJaded]

If he shields the whole multihit attack I believe it won't take effect.

That's not the issue though. Even if the glitch is active, it's only useful if Diddy doesn't shield, in which case you can pelt the little monkey with needles, turnips, high priority aerials, etc. The only way this would be an issue is if the opposing player is dumb enough to grab after throwing out multi-hit attacks. You can't really excuse that player for not knowing the matchup in a competitive setting, since this glitch can easily be worked around.

 

[Ghostbone]

If he shields the whole multihit attack I believe it won't take effect.

Cos not like anyone accidentally drops shield during multi hit attacks ever.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Can't shield the whole thing tho or a lot of diddy shields will break. Its really difficult to do anything without temp banning diddy until this is hotfixed.

 

[Ghostbone]

Can't shield the whole thing tho or a lot of diddy shields will break. Its really difficult to do anything without temp banning diddy until this is hotfixed.

Or just don't be a scrub and ban people's characters because you can't be bothered dealing with them.

 

[LancerStaff]

That's not the issue though. Even if the glitch is active, it's only useful if Diddy doesn't shield, in which case you can pelt the little monkey with needles, turnips, high priority aerials, etc. The only way this would be an issue is if the opposing player is dumb enough to grab after throwing out multi-hit attacks. You can't really excuse that player for not knowing the matchup in a competitive setting, since this glitch can easily be worked around.

When you have characters that have to approach with multihit moves it becomes much more complicated because he will get the glitch, which then means that when you really don't have a proper way to disable the glitch.

Cos not like anyone accidentally drops shield during multi hit attacks ever.

Either that or he's going to be banned.

Or just don't be a scrub and ban people's characters because you can't be bothered dealing with them.

On that note, who would want to play as Diddy with this around? Besides the novelty, you're playing with a significant change to your character that's going to be cut within a week. If you're used to spacing with a janky Fair then it's removed, that's something that can be easily adjusted to. Same with being more careful with their R button on specific moves. But the glitch? This is a fundamental change to the character. Good Diddys are going to be avoiding this so they're not going to pick up the idea that they're ever immune to grabs.

Against Lucario or anybody with a multihit that breaks shields, either you're taking Diddy's toy or Lucario's. It's not exactly fair for either party.

 

[JesterJaded]

When you have characters that have to approach with multihit moves it becomes much more complicated because he will get the glitch, which then means that when you really don't have a proper way to disable the glitch.



Either that or he's going to be banned.



On that note, who would want to play as Diddy with this around? Besides the novelty, you're playing with a significant change to your character that's going to be cut within a week. If you're used to spacing with a janky Fair then it's removed, that's something that can be easily adjusted to. Same with being more careful with their R button on specific moves. But the glitch? This is a fundamental change to the character. Good Diddys are going to be avoiding this so they're not going to pick up the idea that they're ever immune to grabs.

Against Lucario or anybody with a multihit that breaks shields, either you're taking Diddy's toy or Lucario's. It's not exactly fair for either party.

What you're describing is a poor matchup, and a very rare one at that. There aren't that many characters that can ONLY approach with multi-hit moves, and even then you can still cancel Diddy's glitch with his own banana.

Also, comparing Diddy's glitch to Lucario's shield break shenanigans is incredibly inaccurate. You're comparing something that only has vague benefits at best with a small corner of the cast to something that has a wider range of viability. I'd sooner ban Lucario than Diddy.

 

[EvilPinkamina]

Or just don't be a scrub and ban people's characters because you can't be bothered dealing with them.

Literally being unable to grab a character because of a glitch is kinda big. Its not like we can just outright ban dropping shields during multihit moves only as diddy.

 

[Ghostbone]

Literally being unable to grab a character because of a glitch is kinda big. Its not like we can just outright ban dropping shields during multihit moves only as diddy.

You can grab him, just hit his shield first.

 

[T4ylor]

Or just don't be a scrub and ban people's characters because you can't be bothered dealing with them.

This community has already banned 3 characters because they don't want to deal with them, so I could very well see it happening to Diddy too. Completely agree with you though.

 

[Charey]

I think the only real options are ban Diddy or let them glitch, accidentally dropping your shield too early while blocking a multi-hit move is an easy thing to do.

I saw let them play Diddy for the week or so that it takes to patch it, even with shields being worse in this patch not being able to use shields at all is a very steep requirement to using the glitch and I don't picture someone who would put the effort into using this sort of glitch with such a quick incoming patch is a player worth worrying about.

Plus I don't think doing a ban that will last like one week is worth the effort to do unless it's a Major, and Big House is using the old patch anyways.

 

[LancerStaff]

What you're describing is a poor matchup, and a very rare one at that. There aren't that many characters that can ONLY approach with multi-hit moves, and even then you can still cancel Diddy's glitch with his own banana.

Also, comparing Diddy's glitch to Lucario's shield break shenanigans is incredibly inaccurate. You're comparing something that only has vague benefits at best with a small corner of the cast to something that has a wider range of viability. I'd sooner ban Lucario than Diddy.

No, but taking away possibly vital approach moves against an already great character isn't wise.

I'm not comparing them, I'm saying this is one of the few situations where Diddy is at a remote disadvantage because of the ban. Lucario's Aura Sphere shield break thing isn't hard to escape, even cornered on the ledge. Unless your opponent has never heard of Shield DI, they're getting out.

 

[JesterJaded]

No, but taking away possibly vital approach moves against an already great character isn't wise.

No offense, but by this logic you can point at any character and say, "my character can't approach safely because X, please ban."

Why ban Diddy because of a small portion of the cast would have a hard time approaching when Sheik is still legal?

By your logic, this applies well to Link, who can do pretty much all of what you listed obviously.

Both Links even, with Tink's Bombo Combos and Bomb / Boomerang kill confirms.

 

[LancerStaff]

No offense, but by this logic you can point at any character and say, "my character can't approach safely because X, please ban."

Why ban Diddy because of a small portion of the cast would have a hard time approaching when Sheik is still legal?

Pretty sure there's more then a few characters who'd rather approach Sheik then glitchy Diddy...

So we should just let more broke stuff in because other broke stuff exists? Yeah, no.

 

[JesterJaded]

Pretty sure there's more then a few characters who'd rather approach Sheik then glitchy Diddy...

So we should just let more broke stuff in because other broke stuff exists? Yeah, no.

No, we shouldn't ban "broke" stuff just because people are crying wolf. Until we see some legitimate evidence that Diddy's glitch can be exploited (on a competitive level) to the point where a ban can even be considered, we shouldn't ban Diddy based on "sure"s or "maybe"s. It's not fair to the Diddy players if we single them out over something arbitrary.

 

[LancerStaff]

No, we shouldn't ban "broke" stuff just because people are crying wolf. Until we see some legitimate evidence that Diddy's glitch can be exploited (on a competitive level) to the point where a ban can even be considered, we shouldn't ban Diddy based on "sure"s or "maybe"s. It's not fair to the Diddy players if we single them out over something arbitrary.

Or we can just ban it because it'll literally be patched by the time we figure out if it's actually something worth banning. Like I said, Diddy is barely hurt by this.

This isn't even something we decide. The TOs decide it. Just do the math... How many people wouldn't play if the glitch was banned? Some Diddy players. How many people wouldn't play if it wasn't banned? Potentially players of any character.

 

[JesterJaded]

Or we can just ban it because it'll literally be patched by the time we figure out if it's actually something worth banning. Like I said, Diddy is barely hurt by this.

This isn't even something we decide. The TOs decide it. Just do the math... How many people wouldn't play if the glitch was banned? Some Diddy players. How many people wouldn't play if it wasn't banned? Potentially players of any character.

Players who all got jump-scared at the mere mention of "immune to grabs" without learning the details*

We're going to have to agree to disagree here on the notion of banning it just in case. It just sounds like a load of fear mongering to me.

 

[Ghostbone]

lmao
Literally zero people wouldn't go to a tournament because Diddy isn't banned. (and you can't just ban accidentally dropping shield or getting shield poked lmao, it's not an enforceable ban)

Lancer you have no ****ing clue, why do you hate Diddy so much that you can't just learn to adapt for a week

 

[Pazx]

Pit is the character most disadvantaged by this glitch (heaps of multi hitting moves, good grab game), so I understand LancerStaff 's frustration, although I think a more mature reaction would have been nice.

Is this something we should be punishing Diddy players for? Probably not. Will Diddy players attempt to abuse this in tournaments? Possibly. Will the glitch occur accidentally in tournaments? Definitely. What should we do about that? Nothing, tough luck imo. Will it get fixed? Yes. It's all going to be alright.

Related: here are my findings on the matter.

I feel as though this is the best place to put my findings regarding glitch where Diddy becomes invulnerable to grabs.

When he is in this state, he is invulnerable to ALL grabs including command grabs. The only way for him to exit this state is for his shield to be hit (without re-triggering the glitch, will explain below) or to die. If there is a third player, they will be able to grab Diddy so the glitch only pertains to the character who triggers the glitch on Diddy. If the character who triggered the glitch dies and respawns they will still be unable to grab Diddy.

What triggers the glitch? Certain moves hitting Diddy's shield and then immediately hitting Diddy afterwards. The most obvious example is rapid jabs, if Diddy shields a hit of a rapid jab and then is hit by a subsequent hit (IMPORTANT NOTE: some moves require Diddy to perform an OoS option to get hit [eg. grabbing or jumping] due to the changes to shield stun. Shield pokes also work.) he will be unaffected by all grabs. However it's not just rapid jabs, my theory is that it is some (but not all) quick or multi hitting moves that trigger this stage. A move must either be very quick or be the same instance of the initial move (ie. a move with multiple hitboxes, one being shielded and then the second hitting), the only exception I've found is Ness's dair.


Shielding one or more hits of rapid jab before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch
Shielding one or more hits of uair, nair, fair, utilt, usmash, fsmash before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 does not trigger this glitch.
Shielding jab 2 before getting hit by jab 3 OR rapid jab does not trigger this glitch.


Shielding one or more hits of boost kick before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
Jab never triggers this glitch.


Shielding one or more hits of rapid jab, fair, bair, tornado, ftilt, drill rush before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
No notable exceptions.


Shielding one or more hits of rapid jab before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 does not trigger this glitch.
Shielding jab 2 before getting hit by jab 3 OR rapid jab does not trigger this glitch.
Shielding one hit of neutral air before getting hit by the same move does not trigger this glitch.


Shielding one or more hits of rapid jab, dair, fair before getting hit by the same move triggers this glitch.
(I can't remember but I don't think either jab 1 -> jab 2 or jab 2 -> rapid trigger the glitch, sorry)


Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 triggers the glitch.
Shielding nair 1 before getting hit by nair 2 does not trigger this glitch.


Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 triggers the glitch.
Shielding bair 1 before getting hit by bair 2 does not trigger this glitch (I forgot to test fair, sorry).
Shielding fsmash 1 before getting hit by fsmash 2 does not trigger this glitch.


Shielding one or more hits of fair, dash attack before getting hit by the same move triggers the glitch.
Shielding jab 2 before getting hit by jab 3 triggers the glitch.
Shielding dtilt before getting hit by dtilt triggers the glitch. <---- this is the only example of a move being repeated and still triggering the glitch.
No notable exceptions.


Shielding one or more hits of bair, dair before getting hit by the same move triggers the glitch.
Shielding jab 1 before getting hit by jab 2 triggers the glitch.
Shielding jab 2 before getting hit by jab 1 does not trigger the glitch.

I'm struggling to see any concrete pattern.

 

[Ghostbone]

Pit is the character most disadvantaged by this glitch (heaps of multi hitting moves, good grab game), so I understand LancerStaff 's frustration, although I think a more mature reaction would have been nice.

Pit isn't at all affected, one arrow fixes the whole problem (unless diddy just wants to eat free arrow damage or something but that's not a broken strategy)

Related: here are my findings on the matter.

I've heard the pattern is if the attacker uses one button press, but if some of those jabs never work even if the attacker just holds down A on Diddy's shield then idk.

Maybe it's simply a matter of the time between the multiple hits? But then I'm not sure why wario's jab triggers it.

 

[JesterJaded]

Pit is the character most disadvantaged by this glitch (heaps of multi hitting moves, good grab game), so I understand LancerStaff 's frustration, although I think a more mature reaction would have been nice.

Is this something we should be punishing Diddy players for? Probably not. Will Diddy players attempt to abuse this in tournaments? Possibly. Will the glitch occur accidentally in tournaments? Definitely. What should we do about that? Nothing, tough luck imo. Will it get fixed? Yes. It's all going to be alright.

Related: here are my findings on the matter.

Well there you go, Diddy has to continuously get hit or just not shield in order to maintain the glitch. How is this broken again?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Hit his shield and he loses it.

To keep it he has to not shield, which all you have to do is poke him once and he loses it instant.

This is good for him for a bug but it's not game breaking since he is forced to do something that he will be punished for not doing. Shield might have gotten nerfed this patch but trust me, he will need to shield at some point.

 

[JesterJaded]

Hit his shield and he loses it.

To keep it he has to not shield, which all you have to do is poke him once and he loses it instant.

This is good for him for a bug but it's not game breaking since he is forced to do something that he will be punished for not doing. Shield might have gotten nerfed this patch but trust me, he will need to shield at some point.

That's the thing though, Diddy isn't really "forced" to do anything. The Diddy player can play as if the glitch wasn't there, which may be preferable as trying to maintain the glitch could cause him to eat percents like a gaggle of school children feeding monkeys at the zoo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's the thing though, Diddy isn't really "forced" to do anything. The Diddy player can play as if the glitch wasn't there, which may be preferable as trying to maintain the glitch could cause him to eat percents like a gaggle of school children feeding monkeys at the zoo.

True which is an issue to where people might not know it even went off, on either side which makes it a real problem.

Only real way to know for sure you can grab him is poke his shield once then aim for a grab.

Or wait for a patch to remove this, and one will.

 

[JesterJaded]

True which is an issue to where people might not know it even went off, on either side which makes it a real problem.

Only real way to know for sure you can grab him is poke his shield once then aim for a grab.

Or wait for a patch to remove this, and one will.

If we can find the pattern on how this glitch works and get some irrefutable information on which moves will cause the glitch, then the opposing player could simply avoid those moves altogether, otherwise like you said they could poke the shield first just to be safe. The information we have now though seems to be consistent, for the most part.

So long as you keep the glitch in mind and just assume it's active after you've used a triggering move, it shouldn't be a problem imo.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If we can find the pattern on how this glitch works and get some irrefutable information on which moves will cause the glitch, then the opposing player could simply avoid those moves altogether, otherwise like you said they could poke the shield first just to be safe. The information we have now though seems to be consistent, for the most part.

So long as you keep the glitch in mind and just assume it's active after you've used a triggering move, it shouldn't be a problem imo.

Yeah this is more or less what I was thinking.

Know what triggers it, how to avoid it and then use that info to win.

 

[LancerStaff]

Players who all got jump-scared at the mere mention of "immune to grabs" without learning the details*

We're going to have to agree to disagree here on the notion of banning it just in case. It just sounds like a load of fear mongering to me.

People who can put off a tournament for a week because the TO was afraid of being called names.

Banning a pretty potent glitch that'll be gone in a week isn't fear mongering. If we were forced to deal with it for any real stretch of time then I definitely say it's worth a suspect test, but we're not so it isn't.

lmao
Literally zero people wouldn't go to a tournament because Diddy isn't banned. (and you can't just ban accidentally dropping shield or getting shield poked lmao, it's not an enforceable ban)

Lancer you have no ****ing clue, why do you hate Diddy so much that you can't just learn to adapt for a week

Like I said, people can put off a tournament for a week because the TO was afraid of being called names.

Diddy has to interrupt his shield during a multihit. If you're so inept you can't successfully hold R without pressing A then I have no idea why you're at a tournament. Random shield pokes don't trigger it. Not hard to inforce "grab doesn't work = lost stock" either.

What do we gain from not banning it? Nada.

If we can find the pattern on how this glitch works and get some irrefutable information on which moves will cause the glitch, then the opposing player could simply avoid those moves altogether, otherwise like you said they could poke the shield first just to be safe. The information we have now though seems to be consistent, for the most part.

So long as you keep the glitch in mind and just assume it's active after you've used a triggering move, it shouldn't be a problem imo.

So why are we putting effort into something that won't even be there in a week instead of just band-aiding it until then?

 

[Pazx]

I forgot one of the more significant parts of my testing (will edit into post in mechanics thread).

If Diddy is in the glitched state, shielding PK fire (from Ness) will cause him to go back to normal. However, shielding the PK fire pillar does not affect the state he is in at all. This is probably something to do with the ownership of projectiles but I'm not sure. There may be other projectiles like this, bombs bouncing off Diddy's shield for instance has 0 effect but if Link throws the bomb into the ground and the explosion damages Diddy's shield he leaves the glitched state. I didn't test what happens if Diddy hurts his shield with a bomb he's thrown \/holding but I'd imagine it doesn't affect it.

Edit: LancerStaff shield pokes DO trigger the glitch. In fact, that's probably the most common way it will occur. There's not a lot you can do against Yoshi's dair, for instance.

 

[LancerStaff]

Edit: LancerStaff shield pokes DO trigger the glitch. In fact, that's probably the most common way it will occur. There's not a lot you can do against Yoshi's dair, for instance.

A shield poke and a shield stab are two different things. A poke usually refers to a quick, safe attack that often can shield stab. A stab is an attack that goes around a shield that's either been weakened or redirected.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

I think that the Diddy Kong glitch is a big deal, but not because people will actively go for it. I think what's much more likely, and what's going to end up getting Diddy temp-banned, is that people's playstyles just so happen to trigger the glitch, which causes their opponent to miss grabs they otherwise would have gotten before the shield goes up. It's not a matter of intentionally exploiting the glitch to get results, it's the matter of unintentionally exploiting it and getting results. Why am I having to explain that anything that gives a blanket immunity to grabs even temporarily (which isn't intended, i.e. dodges) is fundamentally broken?

Either way, these changes feel rushed and not thought out. Probably because they were rushed and not thought out.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I think that the Diddy Kong glitch is a big deal, but not because people will actively go for it. I think what's much more likely, and what's going to end up banned, is that people's playstyles just so happen to trigger the glitch, which causes their opponent to miss grabs they otherwise would have gotten before the shield goes up. It's not a matter of intentionally exploiting the glitch to get results, it's the matter of unintentionally exploiting it and getting results.

Either way, these changes feel rushed and not thought out. Probably because they were rushed and not thought out.

This is precisely why it can't be banned. This glitch can easily be triggered by accident, and it's unreasonable to expect Diddy players to avoid it. It will be patched out pretty soon I imagine since this glitch is pretty severe, but until such a time, I think we just have to live with it. Diddy Kong is probably not an automatic win with this glitch, just an obnoxious and polarizing character.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

This is precisely why it can't be banned. This glitch can easily be triggered by accident, and it's unreasonable to expect Diddy players to avoid it.

It's unreasonable to expect people playing against Diddy to put up with it, so ultimately I think the character itself will be banned until the fix. Was there ever a glitch of this magnitude in Smash 4 before, and how fast did it get patched? Assume it doesn't get patched for a while (it takes some time to get to Nintendo HQ, and then they have problems fixing it or something.) How will it affect tournaments? There's a fundamental difference in the gameplay now thanks to the extra shieldlag, so it's not a trivial choice which version to play.

This is easily the most divisive patch in the history of the game so far.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It's unreasonable to expect people playing against Diddy to put up with it, so ultimately I think the character itself will be banned until the fix. Was there ever a glitch of this magnitude in Smash 4 before, and how fast did it get patched?

How certain are you that Diddy with the glitch is overall better than Sheik as a character? I think being very certain of that fact would be a necessary first step to any sort of a ban. I am pretty unconvinced; this glitch is pretty dumb and pretty strong, but Sheik's baseline quality is non-trivially higher than Diddy's and Brawl did show us that despite Ice Climbers having mechanics even more broken than this they were still not as good as Meta Knight. No one banned Brawl Ice Climbers so I'd be slow to ban this glitched Diddy; it's likely easy to overestimate how powerful this is and just imagine it makes Diddy unbeatable.

Early in smash 4's lifespan, there was a glitch that caused Peach players to randomly get banned online (since it saw her down-B as creating items in For Glory and assumed the Peach players were hackers). It was fixed in a few weeks as I recall; they were pretty quick about it. This glitch is pretty similar in severity I think. If we assume it will be fixed relatively quickly, banning would be a big mistake even if it is broken since most Diddys won't rework their games to integrate this "tech" extensively in such a short timeframe and, similarly, we'd be effectively telling everyone who mains Diddy to stay home from tournaments which isn't helping anyone get better at the game.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

How certain are you that Diddy with the glitch is overall better than Sheik as a character?

Ultimately I think this is irrelevant. If two players of equal skill are playing and Diddy unintentionally avoids a grab based on this glitch and cements a win because of it, it's not the result of the player's skill that made them win the match, it's the glitch. Even if Sheik remains more powerful, people don't like feeling cheated.

The Ice Climbers mechanic at least required some coordination to pull off consistently - I'm not suggesting we ban difficult, if powerful tech. Yes, they were broken, but they weren't broken in a manner that fundamentally contradicted the established rules of the game.

 

[NairWizard]

Ultimately I think this is irrelevant. If two players of equal skill are playing and Diddy unintentionally avoids a grab based on this glitch and cements a win because of it, it's not the result of the player's skill that made them win the match, it's the glitch. Even if Sheik remains more powerful, people don't like feeling cheated.

What if Pikachu avoids a grab because he's short? Is that somehow more skillful?

The developers obviously intended one and didn't intend the other, but abstract out the development layer and all you have left is a character attribute. Tournaments are won and lost all the time because of character attributes. It really isn't a big deal.

@Shaya

just saw your post, my bad

 

[thehard]

It was fixed in a few weeks as I recall; they were pretty quick about it. This glitch is pretty similar in severity I think. If we assume it will be fixed relatively quickly, banning would be a big mistake even if it is broken since most Diddys won't rework their games to integrate this "tech" extensively in such a short timeframe and, similarly, we'd be effectively telling everyone who mains Diddy to stay home from tournaments which isn't helping anyone get better at the game.

One week, actually.

edit: oops @Shaya

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

What if Pikachu avoids a grab because he's short? Is that somehow more skillful?

Pikachu's grab height is more easily apparent to the player and they can adjust their playstyle to compensate. When Diddy is straight up invulnerable to a grab that in any other circumstance would have grabbed him, and should have, and in most circumstances does, it's not a fair representation of the rules - it's a no sell for no adequate reason.