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DK Combo Stuff

Big O

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There are four kinds of hitstun. I'm just going to give them my own names for this guide. The first I will call true hitstun. This occurs when you hit with attacks that do not cause knockdowns/tumble. The second is tumblestun. This occurs when you hit them with attacks strong enough to cause tumble/knockdowns. You can use aerials and air dodge out of tumble stun after a set amount of time no matter how strong the move it. The third is meteorstun. When you use spikes that are strong enough to cause tumble/knockdowns you can meteor cancel them after a set amount of time with jump or up b. You could also air dodge and use aerials out of meteorstun but that is pretty silly. The last type is tripstun which is pretty self-explanatory. Tripstun is a fixed amount stun that usually gives enough time for the follow-up of your choice. Most moves have hitstun directly proportional to knockback so the best move for combos is one that has as little cooldown lag as possible.

TRUE HITSTUN​

This is what you are looking for. Here are some of the properties of true hitstun. True hitstun can last up to 30 frames after hitlag (when both the attacker and defender are frozen after a successful hit) is done and another bonus is that they can't DI the hit. The first hurdle in pursuing your combo presents itself. True hitstun does not last more than 30 frames. This means most of DK's attacks right off the bat are incapable of comboing. Any attack with more than 30 frames of lag after the attack hits can't combo via true hitstun.

Enough of the bad news. During certain %'s some moves will barely knock them off of their feet in a state of true hitstun. The opponent will stay in the air until the true hitstun wears off and be forced to land. This gives you 4-6 frames (depends on the character) of extra time to extend your combo. If they are hit during this brief period it does not show as a combo on the combo meter in training mode even though it is still a guaranteed hit. It is kind of like an "uncombo" in other fighting games.

Now the fun part begins. Using all of this insight into the combo system I came to the conclusion that Nair combos. That is right Nair can combo. When looking at its stats you notice that it has 15 frames of landing lag and it lasts a while. So to test out my theory I tried it out. Here are the results. At 35% Mario gets knocked off of his feet with the weak part of Nair. He gets 23 frames of true hitstun and 4 frames of landing lag. The true hitstun lasts until 62% and at that % it gives 30 frames of true hitstun and 4 frames of landing lag. At 63 % it causes tumblestun. On Mario the "combo zone" is 35-62% in vs mode. Hitting with the very end of his Nair leaves 12 frames of lag so that would leave you with a 15 to 22 frame advantage on Mario. That is a best case scenario and an unrealistic one. A more practical application would be to use FF Nairs. Nair has 15 frames of landing lag and because the hitbox is so terrible you only get a few frames of falling in between hitting someone and landing on the ground. It has 3 more frames of lag in the best case scenario but most of the time you will also take a few frames to land. FF Nair to Dtilt is guaranteed in the "combo zone" as long as you do it correctly (buffering the Dtilt and DI'ing the FF Nair so that they go in front of you instead of behind you). Towards the end of the combo zone you can reliably pull of Dsmash and if you are pro/lucky enough even punches/down b at the last few %'s.

The best part is that there is a combo zone for Bair, Nair, Ftilt, Dtilt, jab, Dthrow, Dtoss, and punches. The catch is that it is hard to exploit this combo zone for most of them without a wall to stop them from flying too far away. The combo zone also starts exactly when they can't trip anymore on flat ground. With Bair you get the best results when doing it right before you land or when you try to land a weak Bair by DI'ing into them while facing them. You are able to footstool them during true hitstun so Bair to footstool also works. Utilt and Uair hit them too high to force landings. AC Uairs and Uairs that land right after the hit are able to combo.

DK has two throws that are weak enough to have true hitstun (three if you count Bthrow at 0% lol). His regular Dthrow and his Dtoss (Cargo Dthrow) both have true hitstun until certain %'s. His regular Dthrow is very character dependent combo wise since they have different landing spots, weights, and the throw itself has different lag times for each character. His Dtoss is much simpler and gives a 4-7 frame advantage and forces them to land (Jiggs can jump at like 50+ but that's the only exception) until about 60%. It also doesn't stale so you don't have to take that into account either. If done next to a wall it is a free regrab on anyone including Jiggs (lol she could rest at 50+% I guess but with spacing you won't have to worry about that). His Dthrow has true hitstun until about 25% and gives a better frame advantage than his Dtoss. It will combo into Ftilt and Dsmash if they are close enough before it makes them tumble. At certain %'s on certain characters it can combo into down b (or punch if next to a wall). At 0% you can Bthrow to Utilt if there is a wall on some characters but that's pretty much it.

TUMBLESTUN​

Tumble stun actually lasts longer than true hitstun but the fact that you can air dodge or attack out of it makes people think hitstun doesn't exist. You can't air dodge out of tumblestun for 13 frames after hitlag ends and you can't use aerials for 25 frames. You can't move, jump, or use specials for the entire duration of tumblestun. You can however DI the hit to change the angle the attack sends you in unlike true hitstun. The only attack DK has that can hit before they can air dodge is his second jab during the jab combo. This is the kiss of death for combos but this is where strings come into play. Even though they can air dodge before you can do anything, they become locked into their air dodge animation for at least 39 frames (most last 49 frames) unable to even DI. Say you Uthrow them and they air dodge your Uair at the last second. Because their air dodge lasts longer than your Uair you can just throw another one out there and it will hit them. They could also attack out of tumblestun but they have to wait longer. This is why double Bairs work so well. Unless they have a frontal aerial faster than your Bair they have to air dodge and when they do you can just throw out another Bair with a slight delay. Even if they do have a frontal aerial faster than Bair, they can't buffer it out of tumblestun so they need to have perfect timing and an aerial that is faster than your Bair. When you factor in that they also have to have enough reach with their attack to hit you, double Bairs become practically unpunishable when spaced and a reliable string.

Another example of a string would be Utilt spam. After it no longer has true hitstun they can air dodge and attack before your Utilt is finished. If they aren't knocked too high up, you are in a great position to react to anything they do. If they air dodge then you just delay the next Utilt. If they attack you can just shield it. Unless they have a really fast aerial and perfect timing they can't hit you before you can block. Even if they could attack before you can block you may end up knocking them high enough to make them whiff. It is kind of like tech chasing in that they have a chance to escape and that mindgames and quick reactions are what determines whether the next hit will land.

The rest of DK's throws always have tumblestun. The ones with the best follow-up potential are Utoss, Dtoss (stage spike), and Ftoss. Utoss has a -2 frame advantage on air dodges out of tumblestun and a +10 frame advantage on attacks out of tumbestun. This throw is better than Uthrow in almost every way for follow-ups. Jumping Utoss to DJ Uair is almost unavoidable on certain characters because you attack them before they can attack you and if they air dodge you can just throw out another one for a free hit. Ftoss has a -13 frame advantage on air dodges out of tumblestun and a -1 frame advantage on aerials out of tumble stun. Jumping Ftoss is useful when they have slow Fairs and Dairs because Uair is a pretty fast aerial and if you predict/react to the airdodge you can punish it. Dtoss stage spike on a stage like YI where you can't CSS them to death is useful because it leads into Bairs very well and puts them into a position like a jumping Ftoss would but much lower and with your back to them. It has a -10 frame advantage on air dodges and a +2 frame advantage on aerials so a lot of characters can't afford to attack or air dodge because they can't risk gimping themselves. Uthrow is only better than Utoss when there is a platform above you at low %'s since Uthrow doesn't throw them as high. They also might break out of a jumping Utoss if they are crazy at mashing at low damage.

METEORSTUN​

Meteorstun is a subset of tumblestun. It is exactly the same except that you can meteor cancel with jumps/up b after 24 frames of falling. It doesn't work when you spike them on the ground though so when you Dair someone on the ground and they bounce up they can't up b you or anything like that. They can however still air dodge or use aerials out of it. The fact that they can't DI and are locked in their upwards momentum can lead to some decent punishment. DK can't really combo from meteorstun.

TRIPSTUN​

Trips induced by moves give 38-39 frames of tripstun. Dtilt trips are the best combo starter. This is pretty obvious but how good of a combo starter is may not be so obvious. Out of a Dtilt trip you can pull off side b's and Fsmashes guaranteed unless they get hit too far away. I never see anyone take advantage of that so I decided I'd mention that little tidbit. Trips off of Ftilts are not as good and only lead to Dsmashes at best so if you want something better you can tech chase them and try to land a side b/punch/Fsmash. Just before the combo zone %'s, most attacks have a slight trip chance. Stale punches can even trip at 0% which lead nicely into Dsmashes. Jabs at around 80-90% can trip which can be followed up with a fully charged punch (not tipper jabs though). Moves that can trip are also affected by the terrain. On upward slopes they can trip at higher %'s and on downward slopes they stop tripping at lower %'s.

COMBO ZONE​

Here I list the % when the combo zone starts and the % right before tumble starts on Mario when fresh. Stale moves and different weights shift the numbers around. Each move within the combo zone has 23-30 frames of true hitstun and forces them to land which is an extra 4-6 frames depending on the character. This is also based on flat terrain since slopes alter the %'s where they get knocked off their feet. On upward slopes they need more damage to knock them off their feet. Downward slopes would need less damage to kncok them off their feet. If you are trying to combo with weak Nair/Bair without landing then you want to hit with the very end of the attack (the end refers to timing not spacing). So with Nair you would want it to hit almost half a second after pressing A for instance.

Strong Bair- 7%.......24% (15 frames of landing lag or 23-24 frames of cooldown lag)
Weak Bair- 35%.......62% (15 frames of landing lag or 15-22 frames of cooldown lag)
Stong Nair- 12%.......32% (15 frames of landing lag or 26-28 frames of cooldown lag)
Weak Nair- 35%.......62% (15 frames of landing lag or 12-26 frames of cooldown lag)
Dthrow- 0%.......25% (Character dependent lag. 17 for Mario. More lag for heavyweights and less lag for lightweights)

Needs walls to really take advantage

Dtilt- 53%.......86% (15-16 frames of cooldown lag)
Ftilt- 26%.......48% (24-25 frames of cooldown lag)
Upwards Ftilt- 19%.......38% (24-25 frames of cooldown lag)
Downwards Ftilt- 31%.......54% (24-25 frames of cooldown lag)
Jab (non tipper)- 92%.......137% (19 frames of cooldown lag)
Aerial Punch- 0%.......8% (23-26 frames of cooldown lag)
Grounded Punch- 0% (Punch to Dtilt lock! Works on anyone Marth and heavier. This is the greatest thing ever btw)
Dtoss- 0%.......64% (23 frames of cooldown lag)

Utilt and Uair both cause tumblestun starting from 16% on Mario
Tipper jab combos into Dsmash as early as 110% on Mario (frame perfect)

So basically Nair can combo and Punch to Dtilt lock is the best thing since sliced bread on RC.
 

Ragnar0k

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Interesting read Big O. You always seem to have the best information. I guess nair is better than we thought. I always thought that move was underused.
 

Luigi player

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Very nice Big O! So people can't DI DKs uair, because it has tumble stun? That's why it kills so early. ^^

Btw yesterday I found this out:

"FJ dair to uair is actually a true combo at about 40-49 % (on Bowser and Ganondor...). Other characters are too small to get hit by the dair...

If your enemy is on a platform though and you are below on a ground and you FJ dair them they'll have enough hitstun so you can use your second jump and uair/bair them (you have to do it fast though).
"

So it can be possible to combo from a dair... or is it just because I was in training mode?
 

Monkley6

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Definately an interesting read. HOW do you find this stuff out? Idk that it will help me quite yet, cause I need way more improvement but the more knowledge the better right?

edit: Does a foostool fit in with meteors? Maybe they don't have enough stun for it to matter now that I think about it.

double edit:
This throw is better than Uthrow in almost every way for follow-ups. Jumping Utoss to DJ Uair is almost on avoidable on certain characters because you attack them before they can attack you and if they air dodge you can just throw out another one for a free hit.
You say "on avoidable" in that, I assume you mean unavoidable? Just hoping to clear up confusion :)
 

Big O

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Very nice Big O! So people can't DI DKs uair, because it has tumble stun? That's why it kills so early. ^^

Btw yesterday I found this out:

"FJ dair to uair is actually a true combo at about 40-49 % (on Bowser and Ganondor...). Other characters are too small to get hit by the dair...

If your enemy is on a platform though and you are below on a ground and you FJ dair them they'll have enough hitstun so you can use your second jump and uair/bair them (you have to do it fast though).
"

So it can be possible to combo from a dair... or is it just because I was in training mode?
Sorry for the poor wording earlier. When I said they can't DI during tumblestun I meant they can't move in the air. Hits that inflict tumblestun are able to be DI'ed to change the angle it sends them in. Uair kills so early because it is just that awesome. I changed the wording in that part to avoid confusion.

Dair at 40% definetely is not a true combo on anyone. At that % Dair causes tumblestun which means they can air dodge out of it. What the combo meter tells you for hits that cause tumblestun is whether they can move or double jump out of it. The reason people say the training mode combo meter doesn't work is because for hits that do not cause true hitstun most follow-ups can be air dodged out of. If they air dodge they are still sitting ducks waiting for you to punish them though. If they attack they may or may not be punished based on how good their attack options are.
 

Jmex

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Big O is too good.
 

Luigi player

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Sorry for the poor wording earlier. When I said they can't DI during tumblestun I meant they can't move in the air. Hits that inflict tumblestun are able to be DI'ed to change the angle it sends them in. Uair kills so early because it is just that awesome. I changed the wording in that part to avoid confusion.

Dair at 40% definetely is not a true combo on anyone. At that % Dair causes tumblestun which means they can air dodge out of it. What the combo meter tells you for hits that cause tumblestun is whether they can move or double jump out of it. The reason people say the training mode combo meter doesn't work is because for hits that do not cause true hitstun most follow-ups can be air dodged out of. If they air dodge they are still sitting ducks waiting for you to punish them though. If they attack they may or may not be punished based on how good their attack options are.
Okay, thanks for clearing that up for me. :)
 

D0N

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I always that the opponent had time to roll away from f-smash or side-b if you d-tilt trip them. I use to do d-tilt to forward smash when I first started playing to anyone who got hit by it, but eventually just started doing down-b. Is the timing just really strict?
 

Big O

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edit: Does a foostool fit in with meteors? Maybe they don't have enough stun for it to matter now that I think about it.

double edit:


You say "on avoidable" in that, I assume you mean unavoidable? Just hoping to clear up confusion :)
Lol I don't know how that slipped through the cracks. Yeah I meant unavoidable. Pretty big brain fart there.

Footstools would count as a meteor when they are in the air but since DK rises when he footstools someone it can't lead into anything unless you side b and they bounce on the floor.

Fsmash from Dtilt trip requires the most strict timing DON but lol I find it easier to do than down b. Mostly because I've been doing it forever I guess.
 

Jmex

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Downward angled forward tilt can combo?

Into what?
 

Big O

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The downward angled Ftilt has a decent trip chance like Dtilt. It seems to not trip as often though (my untested and totally anecdotal observation). It trips until the combo zone so on Mario it would trip from 0-30% when fresh.

Edit:

so low angled ftilt finally has a use
Lol remember Ripple's vid on (the manly way to edgeguard Ike) how to deal with ledge techers.
 

daisho

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The downward angled Ftilt has a decent trip chance like Dtilt. It seems to not trip as often though (my untested and totally anecdotal observation). It trips until the combo zone so on Mario it would trip from 0-30% when fresh.

Edit:



Lol remember Ripple's vid on (the manly way to edgeguard Ike) how to deal with ledge techers.
hah, completely forgot about that, that was epic..
 

Ripple

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I had never angled f tilt any way besides down except against mk and peach. looks like I don't have to worry about breaking a habbit
 

Z1GMA

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Big O, I'd make love with you if you did research on Ganon's Frame Advantage.

(Him comboing with strong attacks at very low %'s... Also, Weak hit of Nair at mid %'s)
 

Luxor

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TBH I hate the way the OP introduces the concept of hitstun vs. interruptible hitstun, and there are factual inaccuracies in addition to the misuse of the term "tumble," which correctly refers to the state a character is put into when hit by a move of sufficient knockback (a smash at 100% will induce tumble, most Jab1's don't). Despite all this and terrible formatting, the data collected itself seems fine.
 

Chaosgriffin

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The d-tilt to f-smash is not hard to pull off. What is hard to do is to reacting to the d-tilt tripping then pulling off the f-smash.I think most people do down b after d-tilt is cause its safe, even if they shield it they get pushed away and cant really punish. However if you do d-tilt to f-smash and they shield you will get punished
except by luigi

So you just have to predict whether or not d-tilt will trip in order for these moves to combo with it.
f-smash, punch, forward b, up b, sh ff dair, down smash, or any other move that will hit them on the ground
 

¿Qué?

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That's the exact trouble I found pulling that off.

At points, Down B can be better for the situation. I believe it's a good way to land that fresh Usmash, since we hardly use it.
 

Big O

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Big O, I'd make love with you if you did research on Ganon's Frame Advantage.

(Him comboing with strong attacks at very low %'s... Also, Weak hit of Nair at mid %'s)
Wow It's been so long since I've seen this thread lol. I have to admit it was a nice surprise seeing it again and the comments also made me :). I don't want to make any promises, but I may look into it. At a glance, the only things I can see comboing with Ganon are Side B, Uair, Dair, Bair, Usmash, meaty Nair, and Wizkick cancels. Most of those are pretty situational too.

TBH I hate the way the OP introduces the concept of hitstun vs. interruptible hitstun, and there are factual inaccuracies in addition to the misuse of the term "tumble," which correctly refers to the state a character is put into when hit by a move of sufficient knockback (a smash at 100% will induce tumble, most Jab1's don't). Despite all this and terrible formatting, the data collected itself seems fine.
Lol what's wrong with pointing out and separating hitstun vs. interruptible hitstun? The point of this pretty ancient thread was to find out what it takes to combo with DK. As far as combos are concerned, interruptible hitsun vs. non-interruptible hitsun and how they work is pretty much exactly what you need to understand.

I'm also curious what these factual inaccuracies are and how I misused the term "tumble". I never explicitly defined it and only referred to it as the result of moves that have sufficient knockback. I just glanced through the thread and I don't see any problems. The only things I can think of are certain moves being outliers like Ganon's tipman being capable of more than 30 frames of true hitstun (probably all semi-spikes can) and electric attacks having an extra frame of hit advantage (could be extra hitstun but is probably 1 less frame of hitlag for the attacker than the defender). Neither apply to DK though. You seem pretty sure I messed up somewhere so I probably did lol. I wouldn't be surprised if I messed up the numbers somewhere.

The d-tilt to f-smash is not hard to pull off. What is hard to do is to reacting to the d-tilt tripping then pulling off the f-smash.I think most people do down b after d-tilt is cause its safe, even if they shield it they get pushed away and cant really punish. However if you do d-tilt to f-smash and they shield you will get punished
except by luigi

So you just have to predict whether or not d-tilt will trip in order for these moves to combo with it.
f-smash, punch, forward b, up b, sh ff dair, down smash, or any other move that will hit them on the ground
Yeah I think it's pretty easy to do. I was just wondering why I never saw anyone but me do Dtilt to Fsmash back then. I don't think I mentioned it being hard to do.
 

Luxor

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The explanation's content is OK, and I always said the numbers seem fine, I just don't like the WAY you presented it/explained it. Substance isn't the issue, it's style.

The factual errors I thought I saw mostly stemmed from me misunderstanding the OP because of terrible formatting and incoherency; it's mostly right actually. Term misuse was egregious and threw me for a loop as well; refer to what you call 'true hitstun' as non-tumble hitstun, 'tumblestun' as just tumble (since 'tumblestun' sounds stupid, like 'jitterbug' or something) and tumble is the technical standard. You also misused the holy term DI to refer to drifting or influencing your aerial movement, when it should only ever refer to influencing the angle of knockback for moves over a sufficient threshold, the way you used the term in most cases. Tripstun is just a terrible invented term of yours, just refer to it as a trip. Also, you make it sound like tumble can be interrupted anytime, which is obviously false.

Reformat guide to be less wall-of-text like and actually be legible, learn to write some fluid prose (your style hurts my eyes as much as your formatting, it's like. this. every. little. sentence.), fix your terminology abuse and all will be well.
 

Big O

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Lol I see what you the mean about the style. I wrote it more like an informal lecture than a guide. It was me talking about stuff I thought would be interesting/useful and I guess it shows. I don't see much of a point to reformatting it though. Quite frankly, the interest just isn't there (both my interest and the boards's interest). I also don't see a problem with incoherency (aside from a few typos and 1 lol worthy sentence), although referring to DI as movement may be a little confusing.

I never said tumblestun can be interrupted anytime. I said they are unable to air dodge for 13 frames and are unable to attack for 25 frames. I don't see how this implies it can be interrupted anytime. I did say that he can't combo from it (except jab1 > jab2) and that they can air dodge before you can do anything in general, but neither imply tumblestun is interruptible at anytime.

All this criticism makes me want to rewrite it, but idk if it is worth my time.
Btw it isn't term misuse if I made up the terms lol. Just sayin. Also there were no official terms for any of those things back then/johns.
 
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