DK's Matchup Barrels!

Neon! · Nov 24, 2012

Discussion will begin with MK and progress down the current Tier List v7. Post your opinion on the matchup and provide your reasoning and experience. The ratios currently shown reflect the ones in matchup chart v2.0 but a number of them will likely change.

Past Matchup Threads

Neon! · Nov 24, 2012

[COLLAPSE="Input from DK players"]

[COLLAPSE="1PokeMaster"]

1PokeMastr said:
What I know in the vs Match up. Hopefully I get at least SOME THINGS right. In my opinion it's a -2/-1 for Dk. ( More so the -2 ).

First and foremost, make sure you have a Fully Charged Punch charged as soon as possible. It changes people's mentality against Dk. It becomes harder to approach him because of the Punch.

Ground:

When you're put up against Mk, your main thing is to stay Grounded against him. You will not win in the Air. Do not jump unless he's already airborne or else you'll be Juggled by a professional clown. Use U-Tilt/ F-Tilt Up to swat away his aerial approaches and F-Tilt Side/ D-Tilt to combat his Grounded, Non Dash approaches. Dk's tilts are key in the Mu. If you think Mk will attempt a dashed grounded approach, Run away and pivot grab. You'll grab him like this more times than you think. However, most of our Grounded options are beat out by Dash -> Shield which then puts us in a Grab, then the air. So be wary of what you'll be doing on the ground.

Using Jab can do wonders when used properly.

Metaknight can safely pressure Dk's shield with D-Tilt/ F-Tilt/ Sh Retreating Fair and there's basically nothing we can do, except get out of there. Or Up B into Mk.

Landing:

When you are sent up in the air ( You will be, so don't argue against it ) make sure to Di his moves properly, and time a fast fall air dodge through or away from him as he's juggling you. Or a fast fall Bair/ Nair/ Uar/ Dair/ Fair. The last two are risky, but they DO work at times. And for landing options mix it up with everything you've got. Uair/ Nair/ Bair/ Fair/ Dair/ Air dodge/ Headbutt/ Up B before you land -> platform/ Punch. This is one point where Dk struggles the most against Mk because Dk can be baited into something so easily, then punished. And Nado will beat out every option you have unless you have your Jump in tact and can stall out Nado, keep in mind you can beat Nado with Dair if you aim for the centre of the Nado.

Dealing with Nado:

There's a few ways to deal with this move, but first so you're aware. Bair/ Dsmash/ Punch(Fully Charged), F-Tilt Up, Reverse U-Tilt, Grounded Up B( SA Frames ), Dash Attack and Fsmash all Can beat Nado. However, they all require a ridiculous amount of Spacing and being very well timed. Something that Will does other Dks will do is F-Tilt when they think Mk will Nado into them, and if guessed right Mk just took an Extra 10-12%. If not.. You're being hit by Nado and need to get out of it by Mashing jump for a foot stool or Up B ( Keep in mind these options will only work if some of the hits of Nado miss Dk, allowing him to escape ). More often than not.. Nado will catch Dk anyway.

Dealing with Grounded/ Aerial Shuttle Loop and you've just blocked it:

Depending on which way you're Facing with Dk, you can punish a Shuttle Loop on block with a Bair (13%) or a Uair(14%) Oos. This is when you block it while on the stage and Mk was at your height, or slightly above you.

If he's under you, and you're on a Platform and manage to block it. Depending on where he was. You can Punish with a Dsmash or Up Smash Oos, MAYBE even Punch/ Fsmash on Ps.

You're off stage:

The most important part is to keep your jump as long as possible, you'll be needing it, and make sure that you're Always Di'ing Up and Toward the stage, this way you avoid being caught with bad Di. Getting back, is going to be the hardest thing you'll ever do against Metaknight. A good Mk will not let you back on stage.

If you're recovering with Up B really high, Mk will Shuttle loop you lower. When you're recovering to the ledge/ stage with Up B. Metaknight can Dair, Shuttle Loop, Nair, Fair, Nado. There's plenty more but these ones will send Dk away from the stage. They won't kill until around 130 - 180% depending on the move, how stale it is, and your Di. They only way you'll ever get back is when/ if the Metaknight messes up. You can expect to take at least +50% before you can get back on. We have one option, and it depends on your opponents reaction. Dk can stall with his Jump/ Up B to get back. This way you can throw off their punish timing, have them miss and you might get on stage/ the ledge.

Metaknight messes up; You made it to the.. Ledge.. Yay:

Alright, so you made it back to the ledge. You're almost there, all you have to do is mix up what you use. At damages under 100%, get up attack can be a surprise option if they AREN'T expecting it. All I know is to mix it up/ plank until you have an opening. As well as Nado beating out pretty much every option.. again.

So you blocked a Down Smash from Metaknight:

- Shield Drop -> Down Smash (As soon as possible, preferably at higher damages).
- Shield Grab -> Fun time.
- Shield Drop -> F-Tilt/ D-Tilt/ Dash attack.
- Up B Oos into Metaknight.
- On Power Shield -> Fsmash/ Punch/ Headbutt (Must be Frame Perfect).

Metaknight is obviously waiting for you to roll:
- Dash -> Shield.
- Down B.
- F-Tilt/ D-Tilt.
- Punch (Like this ever works).

Blocked Mk Nair Dair:

Dsmash/ Bair/ Uair/ Jump Up B Oos ( Depending of Mk did a Short Hop/ Full Hop Nair/ Dair)

Stages:

Dk is good on all of the stages against Metaknight, but it's best to ban FD if possible.

The only redeeming features I see Dk having against Metaknight that make the Mu not god awful are:

- Dk kills Mk at +80% (Punch/ Fsmash/ Dsmash) and 45% (9 Wind, Extremely conditional).
- Mk kills Dk at +160%.
- Dk hits harder/ punishes harder than Mk, and trades are most, if not all in Dks favour.
- Can D-Throw Mk 3-4 Times at 0% with a walking CG -> F-Tilt. ( Dk can D-Throw -> F-Tilt Mk from 0 - 24% )
- Is a Giant Ape that doesn't care about a Sissy Bat.

That's all I know!

[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="GoofyGV"]

GOofyGV said:
Meta knight actualy can do a lot of safe stuff. But DK can actualy do stuff and seeing Will vs MK makes me think the mu is -1 but overal I think it's -2

MK's most dangrous threats are the fact that he is really fast and really hard to hit. You have to know exactly when to punish and how to punish him. MK will probably go for grabs vs dk because his Dthrow is really really good in this mu. You have a bigger grab range so you should stay out of his grab range. In this case he will have to actualy use a dashgrab to grab you which you can punish with a Dsmash.

Dsmash is probably your best KO move in this mu. It's fast enough to punish mk in a lot of cases(Nado when timed right,missed dashgrab, and when he spaces or times it wrong a fair or dair.)
Other then that you could use the super armor on your punch to trade it is great vs moves like Dsmash or Fsmash if you can read it.

You should alwayys stay grounded in this mu. Bair is really dangrous since it can be beaten by both grounded and Arial upB as well as Uair and Fair. Only use this as punish toll. You Dtilt and Ftilt are usefull for damage racking and punishing.

What you should do in this mu is stay close but not in his range. You should not make the first move since he will punish this. Use Dtilt to bait him into something or use a pivot grab for the same goal. Never use moves that are an slower then ftilt. He will try to get the fight into the air. be aware of this. Do not go for bairs to often unless you have a read or if you have to. MK will try to get a grab on you to get you in the air for uair strings or any arial he has. His dthrow to buffered Ftilt is great to get you right into the spot he wants you in. He will try to get that grab as fast as possible to get you in the air where he can deal massive damage and deal even more damage if you want to land on the ground. Expect that grab because it will come. If he is really fishing for a grab or stays grounded al the time then DownB will be an amazing move to use.
MK's tilts are amazing and really fast. the only time you can actualy punish Dtilt is when you powershield on that isn't spaced correct. So just get out of that range if you find yourself getting presured by it. DownB is a nice punisher for this but it is kinda hard because his Dtilt is so fast.

once you get in the air and you want to land you do have some options. You can ADbut MK will usealy bait for this and you can get punished wit hUair,Nair and Dair. Diar can send you off-stage when you have high%. Uair can send you back up which means you have to get back down again and Nair deals much damage and Knockback. He can also Shuttle loop you for an AD so be carefull with it.
Youy can use your superarmor on punch or your upB to knock him away. Both are pretty decent options but can get punished badly when Readed. you can use your dair even though it's kinda slow it may catch him of guard.

Off-stage you have a really hard time. He will not really gimp you that easely but you can get so much damage for getting off-stage. The best thing you can do is SideB to the blastline. This way you can at least defend yourself with your Bair. If you have to fce him with your fair your pretty much dead.
If you can without dieing it's also good to wait with your upB as long as possible. He will come off-stage sometime so you can use your upB to actualy knock him off if this is possible. once you use upB do not go to the stage in 1 straight line. This will get predictable and can make him get a read. Switch your patern with upB off a bit.

His nado is a move that can get an own section. it's an move that can make landing stupidly hard. I don't know how usefull the superarmor on Punch is here but is may be usefull. if you are grounded you should try to shield it. Ypu can beat it with your punch which is really scarry for mk. hit him once with Punch out of nado and he will not go for nado's again. If he is approaching with nado which he shouldn't do to often then you can go for Angled up Ftilt.

This is the best I can give. I didn't play this mu for a long time because I actualy play it from mk's side and I do not face any DK at all and back when I played the mu from DK's side I was really crappy as player so yeah.

[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Neon"]

Neon! said:
There's just so much to write about this matchup. My mentality in this matchup has changed in the past year as far as how this matchup should be played.

Playing as safe as possible and rarely approaching works against inexperienced MK's but it will not get you far against those who are experienced in the matchup. Approaching becomes a complex system of figuring out the MK's nado habits since it is their most valuable tool in this matchup. Staying grounded is important, but baiting mk with a short hop just outside his reach often tempts them to dash or tornado in which can be beaten with well placed tilts or pivot grabs.

*As poke said it is always necessary to keep your punch fully charged. It changes the manner in which mk approaches but must be used wisely.

At low percents do not throw out the punch prematurely, a whiffed punch can lead to an early string or juggling situation which mk can easily set up. If you're going to just throw out punches to scare them, do it when you're 60% or more so that their punish gives them less momentum.

These are the only situations in which you should used punch at low percents:

-If your dtilt trips (40% chance, comes out on frame 6) DK is guaranteed a punch if you're close enough. This can allow for an easy 36% or so from DK which is 1/3 of mk's stock.

-To punish a mispaced nado. Experienced mk's will often nado in awkard positions where utilts and ftilt are generally more practical.

-To protect your landing. If you know the mk is trying to shield right next to where you will land punch is usually a safe option on shield. Nado will beat a fully charged punch when DK is in the air however.

Another very important tip that applies in every matchup is to avoid charging your punch if you know its going to put you in a disadvantageous position. If you're on a platform charging your punch and MK is approaching from underneath, dont let him harass your shield for no reason. In that situation it might be best to run off the platform and bair or retreat to the ledge. On battlefield for example my first move is generally to drop through the platform while charging the punch. Baiting MK with a short hop-single punch charge is a good way to bait them in general.

[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Sold2"]

Sold2 said:
This is really the best advice for the match-up. Making MK actually having to think about his options makes him have to play into our risk/reward game, which we win (not all that much tbh, but we do). I also kind of feel that the match-up does work out all right when we don't treat it like a normal match-up.

What I mean by that and I guess my secret tip for the match-up is to punish anything he does, even if you look ******** doing it. One good example I can think of is if he does a grounded shuttle loop, we can punish with aerial up-b very consistently. It'll clank the glide attack, go through, and end up doing a lot of damage. Can be used to punish whiffed d-airs and **** too pretty well. Even if you're on a stage you can't cancel it on, getting them into the mentality that they know they'll get punished hard and the percent is enough reason to do it. You'll sometimes take a nado for it but I think it's all worth it unless you're on FD for some reason.

Sometimes I play MKs who have really good mentalities though and that's when this match-up starts to feel -3. I also have to say that MKs that approach primarily grounded smartly are the most difficult. I'm fairly sure our F-tilt is up-b OOS-able no matter how we space it, due to DK bringing his god dang hand forward at the end of the move. D-tilt is pretty good, but he can play around it pretty easily.

Other than that, for stages. Honestly just go wherever you're most comfortable in my opinion. Ban FD or Frigate. Getting juggled without platforms sucks. And Frigate is just too close quarters for us and we just don't get the space to set-up anything. I think frigate is worse but I'm not particularly good there either.

I'll call it -2, but I'm not sure about it.

also we need some people to test this CG some more, I've never heard of this being a thing and it really doesn't make sense in my head. But it'd be cool if it worked.

[/COLLAPSE]

[/COLLAPSE]

[COLLAPSE="Input from MK players"]

[COLLAPSE="Zero"]

CT ZeRo said:
Uhmmm, from my experience with playing Will from NY, I can say the following:

I feel that Donkey Kong should not win the match up if the Meta Knight can juggle with tornado/U-Airs +Fast falled N-Airs/Nado's, poke, and plays in-general correctly. It's mostly, DK gets hit once, he takes 100% damage and is either off stage, or dead. Will is a fantastic player, and even took a game off of me in friendlies, but I felt that the MU isn't really fair for the king of kongs.

MK can just sh tornado B-Airs/dash grab neutrals tances, SH F-Air walk backwards to win standoffs (plus dash grab) and SL/tornado/D-Air to easily gimp/edgeguard DK, and he can't do anything about it.

About stages.... Uhmmm... I would ban Yoshi's because he has an easier time recover to the ledge, due to the friendly wall, and ghost-platform.

I would counterpick anything that allows me to shark, like Halberd, Delfino, RC, Brinstar, etc. Or just pick Battlefield to out-pressure him in all aspects. Frigate could work too, since the second transformation makes it a pain for DK to get those B-Airs in and the no-ledge first transformation makes it even easier to control DK when he's off the stage.

Uhmm... rating, I think it'd be: +2 for MK.

Not +1 cause it's not that close.
Not +3 cause it's not really that 'gg MU'.
But +2 cause it's in between. It does require the MK to know what he is doing, play mechanically efficiently, and in-general, have good decision making with MK's moveset given the situation. And THEN he can shut down DK.

It's different from other MU's where MK can just faceroll the other char without knowing what he is doing, like vs Ganondorf, or Link.

[/COLLAPSE]

[/COLLAPSE]

GOofyGV · Nov 24, 2012

Meta knight actualy can do a lot of safe stuff. But DK can actualy do stuff and seeing Will vs MK makes me think the mu is -1 but overal I think it's -2

MK's most dangrous threats are the fact that he is really fast and really hard to hit. You have to know exactly when to punish and how to punish him. MK will probably go for grabs vs dk because his Dthrow is really really good in this mu. You have a bigger grab range so you should stay out of his grab range. In this case he will have to actualy use a dashgrab to grab you which you can punish with a Dsmash.

Dsmash is probably your best KO move in this mu. It's fast enough to punish mk in a lot of cases(Nado when timed right,missed dashgrab, and when he spaces or times it wrong a fair or dair.)
Other then that you could use the super armor on your punch to trade it is great vs moves like Dsmash or Fsmash if you can read it.

You should alwayys stay grounded in this mu. Bair is really dangrous since it can be beaten by both grounded and Arial upB as well as Uair and Fair. Only use this as punish toll. You Dtilt and Ftilt are usefull for damage racking and punishing.

What you should do in this mu is stay close but not in his range. You should not make the first move since he will punish this. Use Dtilt to bait him into something or use a pivot grab for the same goal. Never use moves that are an slower then ftilt. He will try to get the fight into the air. be aware of this. Do not go for bairs to often unless you have a read or if you have to. MK will try to get a grab on you to get you in the air for uair strings or any arial he has. His dthrow to buffered Ftilt is great to get you right into the spot he wants you in. He will try to get that grab as fast as possible to get you in the air where he can deal massive damage and deal even more damage if you want to land on the ground. Expect that grab because it will come. If he is really fishing for a grab or stays grounded al the time then DownB will be an amazing move to use.
MK's tilts are amazing and really fast. the only time you can actualy punish Dtilt is when you powershield on that isn't spaced correct. So just get out of that range if you find yourself getting presured by it. DownB is a nice punisher for this but it is kinda hard because his Dtilt is so fast.

once you get in the air and you want to land you do have some options. You can ADbut MK will usealy bait for this and you can get punished wit hUair,Nair and Dair. Diar can send you off-stage when you have high%. Uair can send you back up which means you have to get back down again and Nair deals much damage and Knockback. He can also Shuttle loop you for an AD so be carefull with it.
Youy can use your superarmor on punch or your upB to knock him away. Both are pretty decent options but can get punished badly when Readed. you can use your dair even though it's kinda slow it may catch him of guard.

Off-stage you have a really hard time. He will not really gimp you that easely but you can get so much damage for getting off-stage. The best thing you can do is SideB to the blastline. This way you can at least defend yourself with your Bair. If you have to fce him with your fair your pretty much dead.
If you can without dieing it's also good to wait with your upB as long as possible. He will come off-stage sometime so you can use your upB to actualy knock him off if this is possible. once you use upB do not go to the stage in 1 straight line. This will get predictable and can make him get a read. Switch your patern with upB off a bit.

His nado is a move that can get an own section. it's an move that can make landing stupidly hard. I don't know how usefull the superarmor on Punch is here but is may be usefull. if you are grounded you should try to shield it. Ypu can beat it with your punch which is really scarry for mk. hit him once with Punch out of nado and he will not go for nado's again. If he is approaching with nado which he shouldn't do to often then you can go for Angled up Ftilt.

This is the best I can give. I didn't play this mu for a long time because I actualy play it from mk's side and I do not face any DK at all and back when I played the mu from DK's side I was really crappy as player so yeah.

Luigi player · Nov 24, 2012

That looks pretty awesome! Nice work, Neon.

Ripple · Nov 24, 2012

ICs are even.

>gone for another year

Neon! · Nov 24, 2012

Ripple said:
ICs are even.

>gone for another year

Between you saying its even and vinnie saying its -3, I'm not sure what to think of this matchup haha.

Results seem to reflect a -1 or -2 ratio though.

1PokeMastr · Nov 25, 2012

What I know in the

vs

Match up. Hopefully I get at least SOME THINGS right. In my opinion it's a -2/-1 for Dk. ( More so the -2 ).

First and foremost, make sure you have a Fully Charged Punch charged as soon as possible. It changes people's mentality against Dk. It becomes harder to approach him because of the Punch.

Ground:

When you're put up against Mk, your main thing is to stay Grounded against him. You will not win in the Air. Do not jump unless he's already airborne or else you'll be Juggled by a professional clown. Use U-Tilt/ F-Tilt Up to swat away his aerial approaches and F-Tilt Side/ D-Tilt to combat his Grounded, Non Dash approaches. Dk's tilts are key in the Mu. If you think Mk will attempt a dashed grounded approach, Run away and pivot grab. You'll grab him like this more times than you think. However, most of our Grounded options are beat out by Dash -> Shield which then puts us in a Grab, then the air. So be wary of what you'll be doing on the ground.

Using Jab can do wonders when used properly.

Metaknight can safely pressure Dk's shield with D-Tilt/ F-Tilt/ Sh Retreating Fair and there's basically nothing we can do, except get out of there. Or Up B into Mk.

Landing:

When you are sent up in the air ( You will be, so don't argue against it ) make sure to Di his moves properly, and time a fast fall air dodge through or away from him as he's juggling you. Or a fast fall Bair/ Nair/ Uar/ Dair/ Fair. The last two are risky, but they DO work at times. And for landing options mix it up with everything you've got. Uair/ Nair/ Bair/ Fair/ Dair/ Air dodge/ Headbutt/ Up B before you land -> platform/ Punch. This is one point where Dk struggles the most against Mk because Dk can be baited into something so easily, then punished. And Nado will beat out every option you have unless you have your Jump in tact and can stall out Nado, keep in mind you can beat Nado with Dair if you aim for the centre of the Nado.

Dealing with Nado:

There's a few ways to deal with this move, but first so you're aware. Bair/ Dsmash/ Punch(Fully Charged), F-Tilt Up, Reverse U-Tilt, Grounded Up B( SA Frames ), Dash Attack and Fsmash all Can beat Nado. However, they all require a ridiculous amount of Spacing and being very well timed. Something that Will does other Dks will do is F-Tilt when they think Mk will Nado into them, and if guessed right Mk just took an Extra 10-12%. If not.. You're being hit by Nado and need to get out of it by Mashing jump for a foot stool or Up B ( Keep in mind these options will only work if some of the hits of Nado miss Dk, allowing him to escape ). More often than not.. Nado will catch Dk anyway.

Dealing with Grounded/ Aerial Shuttle Loop and you've just blocked it:

Depending on which way you're Facing with Dk, you can punish a Shuttle Loop on block with a Bair (13%) or a Uair(14%) Oos. This is when you block it while on the stage and Mk was at your height, or slightly above you.

If he's under you, and you're on a Platform and manage to block it. Depending on where he was. You can Punish with a Dsmash or Up Smash Oos, MAYBE even Punch/ Fsmash on Ps.

You're off stage:

The most important part is to keep your jump as long as possible, you'll be needing it, and make sure that you're Always Di'ing Up and Toward the stage, this way you avoid being caught with bad Di. Getting back, is going to be the hardest thing you'll ever do against Metaknight. A good Mk will not let you back on stage.

If you're recovering with Up B really high, Mk will Shuttle loop you lower. When you're recovering to the ledge/ stage with Up B. Metaknight can Dair, Shuttle Loop, Nair, Fair, Nado. There's plenty more but these ones will send Dk away from the stage. They won't kill until around 130 - 180% depending on the move, how stale it is, and your Di. They only way you'll ever get back is when/ if the Metaknight messes up. You can expect to take at least +50% before you can get back on. We have one option, and it depends on your opponents reaction. Dk can stall with his Jump/ Up B to get back. This way you can throw off their punish timing, have them miss and you might get on stage/ the ledge.

Metaknight messes up; You made it to the.. Ledge.. Yay:

Alright, so you made it back to the ledge. You're almost there, all you have to do is mix up what you use. At damages under 100%, get up attack can be a surprise option if they AREN'T expecting it. All I know is to mix it up/ plank until you have an opening. As well as Nado beating out pretty much every option.. again.

So you blocked a Down Smash from Metaknight:

- Shield Drop -> Down Smash (As soon as possible, preferably at higher damages).
- Shield Grab -> Fun time.
- Shield Drop -> F-Tilt/ D-Tilt/ Dash attack.
- Up B Oos into Metaknight.
- On Power Shield -> Fsmash/ Punch/ Headbutt (Must be Frame Perfect).

Metaknight is obviously waiting for you to roll:
- Dash -> Shield.
- Down B.
- F-Tilt/ D-Tilt.
- Punch (Like this ever works).

Blocked Mk Nair Dair:

Dsmash/ Bair/ Uair/ Jump Up B Oos ( Depending of Mk did a Short Hop/ Full Hop Nair/ Dair)

Stages:

Dk is good on all of the stages against Metaknight, but it's best to ban FD if possible.

The only redeeming features I see Dk having against Metaknight that make the Mu not god awful are:

- Dk kills Mk at +80% (Punch/ Fsmash/ Dsmash) and 45% (9 Wind, Extremely conditional).
- Mk kills Dk at +160%.
- Dk hits harder/ punishes harder than Mk, and trades are most, if not all in Dks favour.
- Can D-Throw Mk 3-4 Times at 0% with a walking CG -> F-Tilt. ( Dk can D-Throw -> F-Tilt Mk from 0 - 24% )
- Is a Giant Ape that doesn't care about a Sissy Bat.

That's all I know!

Ripple · Nov 25, 2012

DK cannot CG MK

1PokeMastr · Nov 25, 2012

We have one on him, just like on Fox. It's not huge, but it works.

Attila the Hun · Nov 26, 2012

I did a jab to punch last tourney against an MK, cuz they usually try to get something out that gets SA'd. Just a thing to try. When MK is in the air and you're on the ground, bair still works. Also, upB is super safe on the ledge if you're edgeguarding the MK.

I also really like uair when he's above. The MK's around here, and a lot of players in general really underestimate this move. Sometimes I'll chuck MK upwards, since it doesn't do anything bad to you, and they have to watch out for uair, or land and hopefully you have a punch.

I play in N.S., so we don't have any allstar MK's, but really, MK's get REALLY complacent in this MU, and DK has the right killpower to knock him back to his senses.

I can see why the MU still sucks, though. xD

Also, super cool overview, Goofy. I do most of that stuff except for waiting for him to do stuff. So that was good to read.

Also Poke, is the CG tested to actually work, or is that a "they might not expect it" thing? Wouldn't upB just destroy it?

1PokeMastr · Nov 26, 2012

Tested to actually work! :3

I had my Turbo controller set to Up B, that way it can make the input on nearly every frame.
In which, You're able to get 3 D-Throws from 0%.
We MIGHT get 4. I don't know though.

I also did the testing for Zss and having turbo set to Down B for her.
At one point from 0%, I got 6 after trying for an hour.

Attila the Hun · Nov 26, 2012

1PokeMastr said:
Tested to actually work! :3

I had my Turbo controller set to Up B, that way it can make the input on nearly every frame.
In which, You're able to get 3 D-Throws from 0%.
We MIGHT get 4. I don't know though.

I also did the testing for Zss and having turbo set to Down B for her.
At one point from 0%, I got 6 after trying for an hour.

Testing it on a level 9 MK, but he just rolls after the first one every time. It's walking, right? Are there any tips for timing you can give if it's legit?

1PokeMastr · Nov 26, 2012

Whenever I do the CG, I always say "Walk Two, Walk Two, Walk Two". It helps me with the timing.

Other than that, you'll have to practice, and if he's rolling, you're inputting the grab too late.

Ripple · Nov 26, 2012

this still doesn't seem right. when I played for 3 years I tested tons of potential CGs with DK, the only legit ones were on ZSS, fox, and squirtle

Luigi player · Nov 27, 2012

How is anything possible on any character?! >_<
Also mks upb wont really show anything since it is invincible pretty late. Spotdodge or walking away would be the best/quickest.

DtJ S2n · Nov 27, 2012

1PokeMastr said:
First and foremost, make sure you have a Fully Charged Punch charged as soon as possible. It changes people's mentality against Dk. It becomes harder to approach him because of the Punch.

This is really the best advice for the match-up. Making MK actually having to think about his options makes him have to play into our risk/reward game, which we win (not all that much tbh, but we do). I also kind of feel that the match-up does work out all right when we don't treat it like a normal match-up.

What I mean by that and I guess my secret tip for the match-up is to punish anything he does, even if you look ******** doing it. One good example I can think of is if he does a grounded shuttle loop, we can punish with aerial up-b very consistently. It'll clank the glide attack, go through, and end up doing a lot of damage. Can be used to punish whiffed d-airs and **** too pretty well. Even if you're on a stage you can't cancel it on, getting them into the mentality that they know they'll get punished hard and the percent is enough reason to do it. You'll sometimes take a nado for it but I think it's all worth it unless you're on FD for some reason.

Sometimes I play MKs who have really good mentalities though and that's when this match-up starts to feel -3. I also have to say that MKs that approach primarily grounded smartly are the most difficult. I'm fairly sure our F-tilt is up-b OOS-able no matter how we space it, due to DK bringing his god dang hand forward at the end of the move. D-tilt is pretty good, but he can play around it pretty easily.

Other than that, for stages. Honestly just go wherever you're most comfortable in my opinion. Ban FD or Frigate. Getting juggled without platforms sucks. And Frigate is just too close quarters for us and we just don't get the space to set-up anything. I think frigate is worse but I'm not particularly good there either.

I'll call it -2, but I'm not sure about it.

also we need some people to test this CG some more, I've never heard of this being a thing and it really doesn't make sense in my head. But it'd be cool if it worked.

Attila the Hun · Nov 27, 2012

Even having a CG would make him think even more, haha. One CG of 3-4 grabs, an ftilt, and a punch and the MK's pretty much dead, haha. Whenever DK makes a character think, it throws them off, that's my opinion.

Nair will clank glide attack, maybe something can be done there? I completely agree with upB punishes though. That move does so much underrated damage. Even at the start of matches, getting hit by that can lead to 30%, and that's huge for a character that has trouble getting the damage on.

1PokeMastr · Nov 27, 2012

If all the hits of Up B connect it can do 38-39%.
And any non transcendent move will clank with Glide Attack, unless the hitbox is much larger and can out space it. Which is why the Up B punish is so great. It clanks with one hit and then he takes 20-30%. Land an aerial that isn't Nair and Mk is now in 9 Wind kill range. ( Assuming Mk takes 30% )

crifer · Nov 28, 2012

I´m not that good at the mk mu, but there are some things that I have to add:
- some mks try to pressure you with mks dash speed. downB counters every ground option obviously (all other options are pretty unsafe afaik)
--> this will mks force to use aerials or tornado. the best option against that is to run away lol. run away and search for a good opening to beat his tornado. (i will try out upB for that).

Neon! · Nov 29, 2012

There's just so much to write about this matchup. My mentality in this matchup has changed in the past year as far as how this matchup should be played.

Playing as safe as possible and rarely approaching works against inexperienced MK's but it will not get you far against those who are experienced in the matchup. Approaching becomes a complex system of figuring out the MK's nado habits since it is their most valuable tool in this matchup. Staying grounded is important, but baiting mk with a short hop just outside his reach often tempts them to dash or tornado in which can be beaten with well placed tilts or pivot grabs.

*As poke said it is always necessary to keep your punch fully charged. It changes the manner in which mk approaches but must be used wisely.

At low percents do not throw out the punch prematurely, a whiffed punch can lead to an early string or juggling situation which mk can easily set up. If you're going to just throw out punches to scare them, do it when you're 60% or more so that their punish gives them less momentum.

These are the only situations in which you should used punch at low percents:

-If your dtilt trips (40% chance, comes out on frame 6) DK is guaranteed a punch if you're close enough. This can allow for an easy 36% or so from DK which is 1/3 of mk's stock.

-To punish a mispaced nado. Experienced mk's will often nado in awkard positions where utilts and ftilt are generally more practical.

-To protect your landing. If you know the mk is trying to shield right next to where you will land punch is usually a safe option on shield. Nado will beat a fully charged punch when DK is in the air however.

Another very important tip that applies in every matchup is to avoid charging your punch if you know its going to put you in a disadvantageous position. If you're on a platform charging your punch and MK is approaching from underneath, dont let him harass your shield for no reason. In that situation it might be best to run off the platform and bair or retreat to the ledge. On battlefield for example my first move is generally to drop through the platform while charging the punch. Baiting MK with a short hop-single punch charge is a good way to bait them in general.

Sold can we get this thread stickied?

1PokeMastr · Nov 29, 2012

Another thing to add on to what Neon said, you shouldn't try to charge a Punch while the SV Platform is near the edge blast zones because it will lead to an early kill on Mk's Side because of Aerial Shuttle Loop.

Also, I just realised the timing for Super Armouring Nado with Grounded Up B is the same timing for Fsmashing Nado with Marth or Dsmashing Nado with Dk. Since both of them are frame 10 and Up B's SA is frames 10-16, then hits on 18.

I think I'll be doing this more.

DtJ S2n · Nov 29, 2012

Got the sticky. Not sure why it didn't occur to me but my bad.

Another situation to throw punch in at early percents is when they charge a smash, but that's just vs every character. But yeah the punch saving mentality is definitely important.

I'm not sure that grounded up-bing a nado is practical. A lot of MKs space their nado much higher than where up-b would do anything, and grounded up-b won't result in much damage if it does succeed. I feel that if you can f-tilt or u-tilt the tornado confidently, go ahead because it'll discourage them and it's easy damage, but if you're unsure of getting something out fast enough our roll is our best option. It's fast and long enough, and then we have good options for their landing, like running up/down-b or one of our tilts. Shielding is way too unreliable.

Neon! · Nov 29, 2012

Sold2 said:
Got the sticky. Not sure why it didn't occur to me but my bad.

Another situation to throw punch in at early percents is when they charge a smash, but that's just vs every character. But yeah the punch saving mentality is definitely important.

I'm not sure that grounded up-bing a nado is practical. A lot of MKs space their nado much higher than where up-b would do anything, and grounded up-b won't result in much damage if it does succeed. I feel that if you can f-tilt or u-tilt the tornado confidently, go ahead because it'll discourage them and it's easy damage, but if you're unsure of getting something out fast enough our roll is our best option. It's fast and long enough, and then we have good options for their landing, like running up/down-b or one of our tilts. Shielding is way too unreliable.

Grounded up-b is fairly hard to beat nado with and will often lead to mk getting another nado if they SDI correctly. If they dont SDI correctly they could very well be taking 15% or more. Grounded up-b also will not beat nado if it is spaced high, The back hit of utilt is by far the easiest way to beat nado when it is spaced high.

TSM ZeRo · Nov 30, 2012

Uhmmm, from my experience with playing Will from NY, I can say the following:

I feel that Donkey Kong should not win the match up if the Meta Knight can juggle with tornado/U-Airs +Fast falled N-Airs/Nado's, poke, and plays in-general correctly. It's mostly, DK gets hit once, he takes 100% damage and is either off stage, or dead. Will is a fantastic player, and even took a game off of me in friendlies, but I felt that the MU isn't really fair for the king of kongs.

MK can just sh tornado B-Airs/dash grab neutrals tances, SH F-Air walk backwards to win standoffs (plus dash grab) and SL/tornado/D-Air to easily gimp/edgeguard DK, and he can't do anything about it.

About stages.... Uhmmm... I would ban Yoshi's because he has an easier time recover to the ledge, due to the friendly wall, and ghost-platform.

I would counterpick anything that allows me to shark, like Halberd, Delfino, RC, Brinstar, etc. Or just pick Battlefield to out-pressure him in all aspects. Frigate could work too, since the second transformation makes it a pain for DK to get those B-Airs in and the no-ledge first transformation makes it even easier to control DK when he's off the stage.

Uhmm... rating, I think it'd be: +2 for MK.

Not +1 cause it's not that close.
Not +3 cause it's not really that 'gg MU'.
But +2 cause it's in between. It does require the MK to know what he is doing, play mechanically efficiently, and in-general, have good decision making with MK's moveset given the situation. And THEN he can shut down DK.

It's different from other MU's where MK can just faceroll the other char without knowing what he is doing, like vs Ganondorf, or Link.

Neon! · Nov 30, 2012

CT ZeRo said:
Uhmmm, from my experience with playing Will from NY, I can say the following:

I feel that Donkey Kong should not win the match up if the Meta Knight can juggle with tornado/U-Airs +Fast falled N-Airs/Nado's, poke, and plays in-general correctly. It's mostly, DK gets hit once, he takes 100% damage and is either off stage, or dead. Will is a fantastic player, and even took a game off of me in friendlies, but I felt that the MU isn't really fair for the king of kongs.

MK can just sh tornado B-Airs/dash grab neutrals tances, SH F-Air walk backwards to win standoffs (plus dash grab) and SL/tornado/D-Air to easily gimp/edgeguard DK, and he can't do anything about it.

About stages.... Uhmmm... I would ban Yoshi's because he has an easier time recover to the ledge, due to the friendly wall, and ghost-platform.

I would counterpick anything that allows me to shark, like Halberd, Delfino, RC, Brinstar, etc. Or just pick Battlefield to out-pressure him in all aspects. Frigate could work too, since the second transformation makes it a pain for DK to get those B-Airs in and the no-ledge first transformation makes it even easier to control DK when he's off the stage.

Uhmm... rating, I think it'd be: +2 for MK.

Not +1 cause it's not that close.
Not +3 cause it's not really that 'gg MU'.
But +2 cause it's in between. It does require the MK to know what he is doing, play mechanically efficiently, and in-general, have good decision making with MK's moveset given the situation. And THEN he can shut down DK.

It's different from other MU's where MK can just faceroll the other char without knowing what he is doing, like vs Ganondorf, or Link.

I agree with everything you said except for dair and SL easily gimping DK. MK has the tools to gimp DK but it is rare for DK to die offstage at mid-low percents like peach or luigi, it its much more likely that DK will simply take 15-30% offstage before recovering safely.

DK does have faster horizontal air movement than MK and can stall with up-b for a fair amount of time. Dair must be spaced well in order to beat out our up-b, if it his DK is put in a slightly worse position but will still likely recover. If MK's dair misses however, he will be taking 5-20% from DK's up-b.

Shuttle loop is more difficult to get past, its arc was designed almost perfectly for penetrating the only vulnerable part of DK during his up-b which is his feet. Skilled MK players will often hover beneath the ledge and SL once DK is in range. It's not uncommon for DK to take multiple SL hits before recovering in this scenario.

TSM ZeRo · Dec 1, 2012

Neon! said:
I agree with everything you said except for dair and SL easily gimping DK. MK has the tools to gimp DK but it is rare for DK to die offstage at mid-low percents like peach or luigi, it its much more likely that DK will simply take 15-30% offstage before recovering safely.

DK does have faster horizontal air movement than MK and can stall with up-b for a fair amount of time. Dair must be spaced well in order to beat out our up-b, if it his DK is put in a slightly worse position but will still likely recover. If MK's dair misses however, he will be taking 5-20% from DK's up-b.

Shuttle loop is more difficult to get past, its arc was designed almost perfectly for penetrating the only vulnerable part of DK during his up-b which is his feet. Skilled MK players will often hover beneath the ledge and SL once DK is in range. It's not uncommon for DK to take multiple SL hits before recovering in this scenario.

I do get what you mean, but I can easily SL DK over and over, and simply tornado him for when he goes past my range. Then it's juggle game again, which if done correctly, DK should be off stage again, or dead. It's easy to ping pong him back and forth off-stage. If DK touches the stage, it's Meta Knight's mistake.

Also, Down Air owns DK off the stage, it's not hard to angle it. The good thing about it, is that it put DK's in range for ledge SL's, tornadoes, and anything, really.

Neon! · Dec 2, 2012

CT ZeRo said:
I do get what you mean, but I can easily SL DK over and over, and simply tornado him for when he goes past my range. Then it's juggle game again, which if done correctly, DK should be off stage again, or dead. It's easy to ping pong him back and forth off-stage. If DK touches the stage, it's Meta Knight's mistake.

Also, Down Air owns DK off the stage, it's not hard to angle it. The good thing about it, is that it put DK's in range for ledge SL's, tornadoes, and anything, really.

This is true, the main point I wanted to get across is that with good DI and proper mixups DK should rarely be gimped by MK. He will often take 20-40% offstage however which helps narrow the extreme difference in weight class/killing power of these two characters.

Dair and SL can of course directly kill DK offstage when he's over 120% or so depending on the angle and height that DK is hit at.

TSM ZeRo · Dec 2, 2012

Neon! said:
This is true, the main point I wanted to get across is that with good DI and proper mixups DK should rarely be gimped by MK. He will often take 20-40% offstage however which helps narrow the extreme difference in weight class/killing power of these two characters. D

Dair and SL can of course directly kill DK offstage when he's over 120% or so depending on the angle and height that DK is hit at.

It depends of the angle, if he's high enough, yeah, he could make it back to the stage at one point if MK messes up. But if he gets below SV's platform height with no DJ, he's done for.

It's also easy to grab DK when he finally makes it back to the stage (due to him always faling down with his Upb lag), and B-Throw him back off the stage again for more ping-pong playtime.

1PokeMastr · Dec 2, 2012

There's a certain line between:
What a Player can do vs a Player.
And what a Character can do vs a Character.

Stating that Dk can stall his Up B to avoid being gimped, and Stating that Mk can just wait and react to what Dk does. Are both examples of what players can do.
Stating that Dk's recovery leaves him very vulnerable to being punished with X Move(s), is what the Character can do.

In the end of it all, Dk gets ***** off stage by Shuttle Loop/ Nado/ Dair and will only ever get back when Mk messes up.

TSM ZeRo · Dec 2, 2012

Sadly for the King of Kongs, that is true

. In general, if MK plays the ledge game + Off stage game correctly, unless you're Pikachu, you're done for no matter what.

1PokeMastr · Dec 2, 2012

Actually Zero, this goes for any Character vs Off stage Dk.
Especially when the character has a Spike.
They're so mean! T^T

Neon! · Dec 2, 2012

CT ZeRo said:
Sadly for the King of Kongs, that is true . In general, if MK plays the ledge game + Off stage game correctly, unless you're Pikachu, you're done for no matter what.

You're overestimating MK's offstage prowess, even the best edge guarders such as M2K and Nairo don't gimp every character everytime they're offstage. Even characters with recoveries as predictable as falco can recover the majority of the time because his falling speed and jump height/speed is different than mk's.

1PokeMastr · Dec 2, 2012

He's not necessarily saying that Mk will gimp Dk, he's just saying that it's really easy to rack damage on him off stage.

TSM ZeRo · Dec 5, 2012

Neon! said:
You're overestimating MK's offstage prowess, even the best edge guarders such as M2K and Nairo don't gimp every character everytime they're offstage. Even characters with recoveries as predictable as falco can recover the majority of the time because his falling speed and jump height/speed is different than mk's.

Around 80% of the time (From the videos I've seen), both players you've mentioned have gimped Will when he has been off the stage. You're assuming perfection. I'm assuming correct play. And if MK plays it correctly, not even perfect, you'll die most of the time, if not always. It's not hard to gimp DK.

You can't compare Falco and DK. Falco 50/50's his recovery. You have to read him. DK will always recover in the same angle everytime.

And like Poke said, even if you don't die, you'll take a bunch of damage (regardless of what happens).

Attila the Hun · Dec 5, 2012

We should play at Apex, Zero. xD Might be funnn.

Neon! · Dec 5, 2012

CT ZeRo said:
Around 80% of the time (From the videos I've seen), both players you've mentioned have gimped Will when he has been off the stage. You're assuming perfection. I'm assuming correct play. And if MK plays it correctly, not even perfect, you'll die most of the time, if not always. It's not hard to gimp DK.

You can't compare Falco and DK. Falco 50/50's his recovery. You have to read him. DK will always recover in the same angle everytime.

And like Poke said, even if you don't die, you'll take a bunch of damage (regardless of what happens).

Will vs M2K is the most recent match I've seen of this matchup. Both of the gimps that occured in the first match were SD's due to poor decisions. Will was reckless off stage too often and even gave up stage control to attempt to edgeguard M2K a couple times.

Falco's recovery is worse than DK's against MK. Falco's recovery is slightly safer but he is put in a much worse position if his recovery is intercepted or if he loses his second jump.

There are many high/top tier characters who have worse recoveries than DK and still do well vs metaknight:
-IC's
-Olimar
-Falco
-Marth
-Lucario

If any of the characters listed above lose their second jump or are intercepted far offstage they will likely die. DK however will not. DK will take tons of damage offstage of course but that's better than being gimped.

1PokeMastr · Dec 7, 2012

You can't Gimp Dk unless the Dk is so far off stage, his Up B will no longer reach the ledge from a vertical standpoint, which still isn't really a gimp. Assuming you have Proper Di, Dk will ALWAYS be level with the ledge or above it when he's hit, meaning you can't gimp him.

The only way to kill Dk off stage is to either hit him with a strong enough move that sends him into the side blast zone, killing him off, or Spiking him. Both of which aren't gimps. As both those scenarios can apply to any and all characters in the game.

Gimping is when you hit someone far enough off stage where their recovery won't reach it anymore, If you ledge hog them. The recovery still reached, but someone had already been occupying the ledge.

Thus, you can not gimp Dk, you can just rack up gargantuan amounts of damages on him, and he'll only ever make it back when you mess up. However, the amount of damages you can rack up on him will be enough to kill him eventually.

What Neon was saying about the Dk stalling with Up B/ Jumps will only throw off the opponents timing, but they aren't surefire ways to deal with Mk when he edge guards you.

Neon! · Dec 29, 2012

I've been busy with Finals and Christmas as I'm sure many others have but after almost unanimously deciding to switch MK to-2 we will begin our discussion of olimar.

Olimar currently stands at -3 for DK but many olimars oncluding Dabuz and Denti believe it is closer to -2.

Denti · Dec 30, 2012

Imo -2. Once you get in it's scary as ****.

Ruinn · Dec 30, 2012

the **** is denti talking about

btw hi denti its forrest gump <3 gj today at uprise!!

this mu is like -100 for dk.

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