Doc or Luigi?

[MarioMeteor]

So everyone is buzzing about whether the Good Doctor is better than Mario or not. The general consensus is that he isn't. I agree. But what about Luigi? For some reason, Doc is never compared to Luigi. Why is that?
But anyway, I mained Doc in Melee, even though I played Melee for like, one year. There he was pretty much the 3DS XL to Mario's 3DS, and Luigi was the DSiXL. But now that they've both gotten their own personality and style, it'd seem like the perfect time to see which of the Bros. is the best. So Doc is my second and Luigi is pending. I'm trying to put more energy into Luigi since I've wrung Doc and Mario dry. So who do you all think is the better character?

 

[Dobbston]

Dr. Mario has a lot better options than Luigi but I give credit to Luigi for being able to combo into Up B out of almost anything.

 

[hakaithesamurai]

For me the doc is better, simply because he isnt as floaty

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm going to say Luigi but I'm not going to discredit Doc ever since I found out that Doc Tornado is in fact jesus. Luigi is probably better overall however IMO. Because, again opinion, Luigi remains stronger than Mario thanks to his more clear strengths (strengths that are very handy, although this might change down the line.) I firmly believe that Mario is good but Luigi has more polarizing attributes that tend to aid him despite statistical shortcomings in areas such as air speed and defensive options.

Now if we're speaking in the MU and NOT overall they probably run even thanks to Doc's stronger defense over Mario.

 

[warionumbah2]

Luigi has better match up across the board. Although Dr Mario is better against Luigi than Mario i can't say the same for other characters.

 

[BBC7]

Luigi is the clear winner, in my opinion. I feel like Dr. Mario has to work too hard to get anything good out of the fight. This is especially true with his dismal range on his F-Smash which makes killing much more difficult than it should be. The pills don't even have good hitstun anymore so I find them to be a weak projectile. Doc is also incredibly immobile, his dash is slow and his perfect pivot isn't all that exciting either. Worst of all, Dr. Mario has Little Mac Recovery Syndrome which is a huge drawback and makes the character rather bad. Dr. Mario overall could benefit from damage buffs across the board Shulk/Ike style, and more hitstun on the pill.

Luigi doesn't work nearly as hard. He has a quicker dash, a better perfect pivot, a more useful projectile, and an overall better moveset. Luigi also has an excellent BnB in the form of D-Throw > Fair > Fair or D-Throw > Fair > Nair. You can chuck out a few fireballs after a missed tech to check their movement, and you likely won't be punished for it because his fireball isn't laggy. Luigi also has an incredibly high initial jump so you can Uair to rack up damage, or just Nair if the ceiling is low like in Halberd. Before you know it, the opponent is at kill percents and one or two Smash Attacks are likely to kill. Luigi doesn't have Little Mac recovery, as Side B covers an insane amount of horizontal recovery, while Down B and Up B assist in the vertical. Even Neutral B assists since it doesn't bounce, which covers your recovery in case you just need to simply jump back on stage. He has noticeable flaws such as poor aerial control and poor defense, but his strengths just make him that much better than Dr. Mario.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Luigi is the clear winner, in my opinion. I feel like Dr. Mario has to work too hard to get anything good out of the fight. This is especially true with his dismal range on his F-Smash which makes killing much more difficult than it should be. The pills don't even have good hitstun anymore so I find them to be a weak projectile. Doc is also incredibly immobile, his dash is slow and his perfect pivot isn't all that exciting either. Worst of all, Dr. Mario has Little Mac Recovery Syndrome which is a huge drawback and makes the character rather bad. Dr. Mario overall could benefit from damage buffs across the board Shulk/Ike style, and more hitstun on the pill.

Luigi doesn't work nearly as hard. He has a quicker dash, a better perfect pivot, a more useful projectile, and an overall better moveset. Luigi also has an excellent BnB in the form of D-Throw > Fair > Fair or D-Throw > Fair > Nair. You can chuck out a few fireballs after a missed tech to check their movement, and you likely won't be punished for it because his fireball isn't laggy. Luigi also has an incredibly high initial jump so you can Uair to rack up damage, or just Nair if the ceiling is low like in Halberd. Before you know it, the opponent is at kill percents and one or two Smash Attacks are likely to kill. Luigi doesn't have Little Mac recovery, as Side B covers an insane amount of horizontal recovery, while Down B and Up B assist in the vertical. Even Neutral B assists since it doesn't bounce, which covers your recovery in case you just need to simply jump back on stage. He has noticeable flaws such as poor aerial control and poor defense, but his strengths just make him that much better than Dr. Mario.

Primary use of pill is not a combo tool and I never thought it was to begin with. It always screamed stage control and opponent control and I think it does that albeit watered down in this game. Also his perfect pivot is the same as Mario's but it's not like it's really feasible or worth noting since the execution of a perfect pivot is incredibly strict for what is legitimately minimal reward. So minimal I find it not worth mentioning.

Doc's recovery is far from Little Mac bad if you know how to properly use it. I have played this character for 2-3 months, always Nado first and then double jump. His recovery isn't GREAT mind you but to say it's Little Mac bad is horribly uneducated.

As someone that plays Dr. Mario he does have certain things over Luigi in particular situations, in his defensive options and strong priority in Doc Nado (plus its ability to kill the heaviest in the game at around 70% as an edgeguard, something Luigi can NOT do even off of an ideal Bair edgeguard, Luigi CAN kill with Up+B on-stage reads, but that's incredibly strict). As an overall character Luigi struggles less, that much is certain, but I can not consciously say that Doc is a "rather bad" character. Only because of Down-B's insane priority and power though, if he didn't have that he'd be bad lol. I think the conception that this character is bottom tier will go into question once people realize that yes, Doctor Tornado is an incredibly ****ing good move.

TL;DR all of my experience points to this character being mid-low but Luigi is mid-high IMO so he's better.

 

[BBC7]

Primary use of pill is not a combo tool and I never thought it was to begin with. It always screamed stage control and opponent control and I think it does that albeit watered down in this game. Also his perfect pivot is the same as Mario's but it's not like it's really feasible or worth noting since the execution of a perfect pivot is incredibly strict for what is legitimately minimal reward. So minimal I find it not worth mentioning.

Doc's recovery is far from Little Mac bad if you know how to properly use it. I have played this character for 2-3 months, always Nado first and then double jump. His recovery isn't GREAT mind you but to say it's Little Mac bad is horribly uneducated.

As someone that plays Dr. Mario he does have certain things over Luigi in particular situations, in his defensive options and strong priority in Doc Nado (plus its ability to kill the heaviest in the game at around 70% as an edgeguard, something Luigi can NOT do even off of an ideal Bair edgeguard, Luigi CAN kill with Up+B on-stage reads, but that's incredibly strict). As an overall character Luigi struggles less, that much is certain, but I can not consciously say that Doc is a "rather bad" character. Only because of Down-B's insane priority and power though, if he didn't have that he'd be bad lol. I think the conception that this character is bottom tier will go into question once people realize that yes, Doctor Tornado is an incredibly ****ing good move.

TL;DR all of my experience points to this character being mid-low but Luigi is mid-high IMO so he's better.

I didn't bother much with Down B but if it does kill at 70%, then that's pretty crazy. On the comment about Perfect Pivoting though, it's really not that hard. One thing I do to get it down more consistently is put my thumb at a 90 degree angle, as opposing to holding the left analog stick from the left side. I dislike the PDP controller because it makes Perfect Pivoting that much more difficult because the handle makes it uncomfortable and the stick itself isn't really flickable. If you've been playing PDP because you lack a GameCube Controller Adapter, use GamePad for now, I guarantee Perfect Pivoting will become easier if you do so.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I didn't bother much with Down B but if it does kill at 70%, then that's pretty crazy. On the comment about Perfect Pivoting though, it's really not that hard. One thing I do to get it down more consistently is put my thumb at a 90 degree angle, as opposing to holding the left analog stick from the left side. I dislike the PDP controller because it makes Perfect Pivoting that much more difficult because the handle makes it uncomfortable and the stick itself isn't really flickable. If you've been playing PDP because you lack a GameCube Controller Adapter, use GamePad for now, I guarantee Perfect Pivoting will become easier if you do so.

It does. Down-B has the same Knockback Growth as Falco's Bair (yes I'm serious) with an 80 Base Knockback. The only reason it doesn't hit like a Bazooka on-stage is because of its low damage on the final hit but if you get hit off-stage you lose a stock.

 

[KeeblerGuy]

I am a Doc main, but there lays no doubt in my mind that Luigi is much better. In fact, he is way better than Mario as well. The only thing he doesn't have over Doc is consistent low % KO moves. Otherwise, pick Luigi because combos and pressure game.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Luigi is the clear winner, in my opinion. I feel like Dr. Mario has to work too hard to get anything good out of the fight. This is especially true with his dismal range on his F-Smash which makes killing much more difficult than it should be. The pills don't even have good hitstun anymore so I find them to be a weak projectile. Doc is also incredibly immobile, his dash is slow and his perfect pivot isn't all that exciting either. Worst of all, Dr. Mario has Little Mac Recovery Syndrome which is a huge drawback and makes the character rather bad. Dr. Mario overall could benefit from damage buffs across the board Shulk/Ike style, and more hitstun on the pill.

Luigi doesn't work nearly as hard. He has a quicker dash, a better perfect pivot, a more useful projectile, and an overall better moveset. Luigi also has an excellent BnB in the form of D-Throw > Fair > Fair or D-Throw > Fair > Nair. You can chuck out a few fireballs after a missed tech to check their movement, and you likely won't be punished for it because his fireball isn't laggy. Luigi also has an incredibly high initial jump so you can Uair to rack up damage, or just Nair if the ceiling is low like in Halberd. Before you know it, the opponent is at kill percents and one or two Smash Attacks are likely to kill. Luigi doesn't have Little Mac recovery, as Side B covers an insane amount of horizontal recovery, while Down B and Up B assist in the vertical. Even Neutral B assists since it doesn't bounce, which covers your recovery in case you just need to simply jump back on stage. He has noticeable flaws such as poor aerial control and poor defense, but his strengths just make him that much better than Dr. Mario.

Thing is, Doc has more than one kill move. In fact, he has a whole cluster**** of em. Out of shield Doc Jump is probably one of the best things ever to exist. Doc Punch is almost always gonna kill. The back of his Up smash is a gift from God, and even his Down Smash. And while the Tornado isn't as good as the Cyclone, it's still pretty ****ing good. And can't forget Back Throw. Perfect Pivoting is hardly something to judge a character with. It's not reliable, nor is it really that good. Sounds to me like you're using Doc wrong. Coming from a Doc and Luigi main. A good Doc can control the entire fight.

 

[Kisatamura]

Cyclone isn't as viable as a kill move or an edgeguarding move as Dr. Tornado. I mean it's more controllable and helps with recovery, but it can't kill like Dr. Tornado.

 

[KenMeister]

Primary use of pill is not a combo tool and I never thought it was to begin with. It always screamed stage control and opponent control and I think it does that albeit watered down in this game. Also his perfect pivot is the same as Mario's but it's not like it's really feasible or worth noting since the execution of a perfect pivot is incredibly strict for what is legitimately minimal reward. So minimal I find it not worth mentioning.

Doc's recovery is far from Little Mac bad if you know how to properly use it. I have played this character for 2-3 months, always Nado first and then double jump. His recovery isn't GREAT mind you but to say it's Little Mac bad is horribly uneducated.


TL;DR all of my experience points to this character being mid-low but Luigi is mid-high IMO so he's better.

Pretty much this. I've gained a lot of salt from people like Sheik players for example who think they can fair me for free offstage, and my rising nado beats it every time when I read it.

 

[HeroMystic]

Thing is, Doc has more than one kill move. In fact, he has a whole cluster**** of em. Out of shield Doc Jump is probably one of the best things ever to exist. Doc Punch is almost always gonna kill. The back of his Up smash is a gift from God, and even his Down Smash. And while the Tornado isn't as good as the Cyclone, it's still pretty ****ing good. And can't forget Back Throw. Perfect Pivoting is hardly something to judge a character with. It's not reliable, nor is it really that good. Sounds to me like you're using Doc wrong. Coming from a Doc and Luigi main. A good Doc can control the entire fight.

Luigi has...

-FJP
-N-air
-F-Smash
-Cyclone
-U-Smash

With the exception of U-Smash, all of this can kill with a D-throw setup. He can also kill with B-air as a edgeguard and Cyclone can gimp if used correctly.

Luigi has just as many kill moves as Doc and they're more reliable as well. As it stands though, I think Doc is currently underrated and still needs more time to find an optimal playstyle.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Cyclone isn't as viable as a kill move or an edgeguarding move as Dr. Tornado. I mean it's more controllable and helps with recovery, but it can't kill like Dr. Tornado.

I've netted more kills with Cyclone than I have with Tornado. Probably cause I stale the **** out of Tornado.

Luigi has...

-FJP
-N-air
-F-Smash
-Cyclone
-U-Smash

With the exception of U-Smash, all of this can kill with a D-throw setup. He can also kill with B-air as a edgeguard and Cyclone can gimp if used correctly.

Luigi has just as many kill moves as Doc and they're more reliable as well. As it stands though, I think Doc is currently underrated and still needs more time to find an optimal playstyle.

Ah, Mystic. I was waiting for you find this thread. Your input is always valued. Dickriding aside though,
Luigi:
-Fire Jump Punch
-FSmash
-Back of Up smash
-Back of down smash
-Nair
-Misfire
-Cyclone
-Bair

Doc:
-Doc Jump
-Doc Punch
-Back throw
-F-Smash
-Up smash
-Down smash
-Bair
-Tornado
Well **** me, they're even. I agree though, Doc is a disgustingly underrated character.

 

[Kisatamura]

Considering that the Cyclone gimp was recently found out, that makes Luigi's Cyclone more disgusting offstage.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Considering that the Cyclone gimp was recently found out, that makes Luigi's Cyclone more disgusting offstage.

I forgot that the bottom of the Cyclone spikes. Does the Tornado do that too?

 

[HeroMystic]

Doc tornado doesn't spike, but it can stage spike. Regardless though of you're low enough you can gimp recoveries.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think Doc is currently underrated.

I can definitely squeeze on this. Best playstyle for him is a classic "Get you to come to me" and punish commitments because Doc is very good at doing that with a respectable grab range and a very good Utilt (a lot of chars don't have frame 3 Nair to escape from the trap) and Doc Nado IMO seals the deal as far as how you should play him. Given how it works as a high priority punish, he's definitely a more defensive, smart neutral oriented Mario....he has more fresh kill moves and can theoretically take stocks much easier than Mario when he's in favorable situations. His projectile and Nado make his neutral much more respectable than Mario on a base level not counting how much harder he hits and how his Short Hop is better for empty jumps and mixups. His Up+B absolutely FORCES shield respect as well.

Which would explain both the lack of representation, the absolute COMPLETE overshooting of how "bad" he is (bottom tier like really lol?) and just the public's general perception of him. A lot of it seems to stem from the idea that he's supposed to be a lot like Mario but to me this only occurs in specific grounded strings and frame data.

I like to bring up USF4 when I think of these two. Mario is definitely Evil Ryu (better char overall, stronger offensive options along with a respectable overall gameplan, and Mario's Up+B even hits multiple times) whereas Doc is a lot about his projectile and his options on the defensive (with a single hit Up+B, much like Ryu's SRK LOL) it's not really a STABLE comparison but it's pretty cute. As far as Luigi goes, he's silly in this game, that is all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's two primary reasons to play Doc over Luigi.

-Out of shield options
-Better gimping/offstage KO aerials

Otherwise I would argue Luigi is overall the better character because his Fireball and frame tight low percent combos (and grab KO confirms) are just legitimately insane.

Doc however does better against a few characters, Little Mac being a very obvious example. I would also personally play Doc against Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Lucario, and Ness. I believe those are overall very good matchups for him.

 

[TTTTTsd]

There's two reasons to play Doc over Luigi.

-Out of shield options
-Better gimping/offstage KO aerials

Otherwise I would argue Luigi is overall the better character because his Fireball and frame tight low percent combos (and grab KO confirms) are just legitimately insane.

Doc however does better against a few characters, Little Mac being a very obvious example. I would also personally play Doc against Yoshi, Captain Falcon, Lucario, and Ness. I believe those are overall very good matchups for him.

Falcon is actually really funny. If you thought Mario's Utilt killed him, well, hyuck hyuck hyuck. Poor Falcon, he's a good character but god damn does he get destroyed on hit so bad.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falcon is actually really funny. If you thought Mario's Utilt killed him, well, hyuck hyuck hyuck. Poor Falcon, he's a good character but god damn does he get destroyed on hit so bad.

Yeah. Doc's combo game on Falcon is absolutely disgusting and even easier to set up in this matchup, and all of his aerials just kill Falcon offstage (don't F-air though). I do think Doc actually wins this matchup as long as you avoid Falcon F-air gimping you.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's MUs are part of the reason I can't see him as outright bad anymore, especially combined with Nado. Nothing about it strikes me as "bottom tier" and IDK if that's conformity bias, acceptance of my character, or because he's not that bad. I'm sticking with the third one for reference's sake. (Like Doc's Utilt is really good, if it did 2% more damage it would probably true combo,definitive proof that damage does actually affect KB, hitstun, and kill power a LOT in this game and most other Smash games)

Also Utilts work on Diddy Kong too for the record, I don't think he can do anything but airdodge and that's bad cause into the ground etc. The only thing that gets out is 3 frame Nair but it doesn't get out, it just trades.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I personally think ZSS and Pikachu are really scary for Doc. Also I think he randomly loses to someone like G&W because disjoints and edgeguards. To some extent I feel he has a very weird matchup spread, unlike most characters. There's some strong characters I believe he does very surprisingly well against though as I stated.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I personally think ZSS and Pikachu are really scary for Doc. Also I think he randomly loses to someone like G&W because disjoints and edgeguards. To some extent I feel he has a very weird matchup spread, unlike most characters.

ZSS is interesting but not as bad as Sheik IMO, Pikachu I have no clue about but probably not great, but like, beyond that I can't think of any truly TERRIBLE MUs Doc has outside of maybe like, Ike or Shulk? Dunno. I don't think he's an entire tier list's worth worse than Mario though, that much is true.

 

[HeroMystic]

Pikachu is pretty disgusting in this game. That said, I never played this MU as Doc either, but I can't imagine this being pretty.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If Nado can beat Quick Attack as a Dr. Mario my chances of winning the MU will be substantially more favorable (not in Doc's favor at all but far from as bad as it could be) I guess I should try and test this, then!

 

[HeroMystic]

I can definitely squeeze on this. Best playstyle for him is a classic "Get you to come to me" and punish commitments because Doc is very good at doing that with a respectable grab range and a very good Utilt (a lot of chars don't have frame 3 Nair to escape from the trap) and Doc Nado IMO seals the deal as far as how you should play him. Given how it works as a high priority punish, he's definitely a more defensive, smart neutral oriented Mario....he has more fresh kill moves and can theoretically take stocks much easier than Mario when he's in favorable situations. His projectile and Nado make his neutral much more respectable than Mario on a base level not counting how much harder he hits and how his Short Hop is better for empty jumps and mixups. His Up+B absolutely FORCES shield respect as well.

These differences is usually why I try to avoid comparisons between the two because that's when misconceptions come into play from the non-Mario/Doc mains thinking that their only difference is mobility and power, but there's a lot of subtle changes that makes MUs work a lot differently. That said, I feel ultimately Doc's speed is what holds him back (similarly to how Mario's power holds him back).

I like to bring up USF4 when I think of these two. Mario is definitely Evil Ryu (better char overall, stronger offensive options along with a respectable overall gameplan, and Mario's Up+B even hits multiple times) whereas Doc is a lot about his projectile and his options on the defensive (with a single hit Up+B, much like Ryu's SRK LOL) it's not really a STABLE comparison but it's pretty cute. As far as Luigi goes, he's silly in this game, that is all.

Evil Mario? I can dig it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah that's basically it. Evil Ryu is offensive frame pressure Ryu with good speed and crazy links + a more solid combo game. Mario matches that archetype in comparison to Doc (although E.Ryu lacks the Power drawback that Mario has) and it's kind of funny, honestly. Ryu in comparison is more fundamental and defensive oriented with his fireball game and strong punishes, kind of similar here (I believe as of latest USF4 Ryu has better fireballs than E. Ryu so another similarity since Pills are undoubtedly better).

They basically split the top tier Mario build into two parts and there you have Mario and Dr. Mario. Doc with the strong kill moves and more options to kill with and Mario with the better combo game and mobility specifications. I think it worked out for the best since they feel like such vastly different characters when you actually play them. Makes me wonder why Sakurai put Doc next to Dark Pit or Lucina.

 

[HeroMystic]

The funny part is I always preferred Ryu over Evil Ryu. Even funnier (or more disturbing), I've always preferred to play Mario more defensively until Smash 4 taught me better.

I believe Sakurai said when they made Doc, he thought back to all the fans who loved Doc in Melee and decided change up his moveset to account for that. Therefore Doc ends up feeling the most unique out of all the clones they made.

 

[TTTTTsd]

My personal secret canon is that Sakurai has a mancrush on Dr. Mario which is why Doc was also almost in Brawl as well. Wonder what he would've been like in that game....

 

[MarioMeteor]

The funny part is I always preferred Ryu over Evil Ryu. Even funnier (or more disturbing), I've always preferred to play Mario more defensively until Smash 4 taught me better.

I believe Sakurai said when they made Doc, he thought back to all the fans who loved Doc in Melee and decided change up his moveset to account for that. Therefore Doc ends up feeling the most unique out of all the clones they made.

That's the reason why Doc is my favorite clone in the series. He's the example of how a clone should be. He shares the animations, but the attributes behind them are radically different.
But Pikachu, disgusting? I thought those days were over... And holy **** Doc, call it a comeback. At first Doc had like, 5 votes. Now they're tied.
Also, I don't know about everybody else but I've never had a problem with Zero Suits. Not with Jigglypuff, not with Ike, not with the 3 Marios, not with Mega Man, not with Rosalina. And those are all of my mains.

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

@ A2ZOMG , imo Doc wins the Pikachu matchup. Doc's range might be subpar, but Pikachu's isn't much better outside of his tail moves and f-smash. Pikachu's speed mitigates his range issues a little but I find that Doc can very easily land his KO moves on Pikachu despite his small frame, especially f-smash, as weird as that sounds. Pikachu can't zone Doc out with anything and Thunderjolt is easily swatted away with super sheet, while Pikachu can still eat a bunch of pills, so he has to be in your face most of the time where I think Doc has the edge. Jumping over the pills doesn't do much since Doc has plenty of options to cover a Pikachu approaching from the air, namely grab (if Pikachu wants to land with an aerial), the rear hitbox on his upsmash, or one of his own powerful aerials (b-air especially, or u-air for strings). Doc's throw setups work very well on Pikachu imo, and grabbing Pikachu isn't as difficult as it might seem, especially if you do it out of the first one or two hits of Doc's neutral combo.

I agree though that ZSS is a nightmare if only because Doc can't chase her around as well as he can Pikachu thanks to her weird moves (what do you do when ZSS Flip Jumps? Shield? Jump? Run? **** idk). The difference between ZSS and Pikachu is ZSS is 1000x better at zoning you out thanks paralyzer and plasma wire, and when Doc can get walled like that he's forced to retreat several times.

As for Doc vs. Luigi, we've seen Luigi do well in a lot of tournaments recently and I only ever see Doc used as a counter-character taken out of someone's pocket. I think most Doc players are afraid of using him because of how easily gimped he is and they're afraid of his slightly lower speed than Mario. Doc hits like a truck though, and isn't nearly as easy to gimp as Ganondorf or Little Mac. Additionally he's not that much slower than Mario, and actually does better against some characters. In short I think the lack of Doc usage has to do with the negative perception of his speed. So I have to withhold my judgement for now, though at this moment it does look like Luigi is better because of his recovery and down throw, as well as being slightly faster.

 

[warionumbah2]

Doc's MUs are part of the reason I can't see him as outright bad anymore, especially combined with Nado.

Doc's MU is the reason why i struggle to see how he's better than Luigi, honestly in tournaments you get high tiers popping up i think that's why people go with Mario competitively. This my opinion on his uneven MU's.

Spoiler

A chunk of these characters Luigi does well against which has been proven since he's been beating these so called high tiers and top 2 taking tourney victories consistently. Once Customs became a thing Doc will be the Anti Luigi he can beat characters normal Doc can't and go even against much more but i highly doubt Default Doc is better than Luigi.

As A2ZOMG said there's some MU that he loses randomly such as Game and Watch.

 

[MarioMeteor]

@ A2ZOMG , imo Doc wins the Pikachu matchup. Doc's range might be subpar, but Pikachu's isn't much better outside of his tail moves and f-smash. Pikachu's speed mitigates his range issues a little but I find that Doc can very easily land his KO moves on Pikachu despite his small frame, especially f-smash, as weird as that sounds. Pikachu can't zone Doc out with anything and Thunderjolt is easily swatted away with super sheet, while Pikachu can still eat a bunch of pills, so he has to be in your face most of the time where I think Doc has the edge. Jumping over the pills doesn't do much since Doc has plenty of options to cover a Pikachu approaching from the air, namely grab (if Pikachu wants to land with an aerial), the rear hitbox on his upsmash, or one of his own powerful aerials (b-air especially, or u-air for strings). Doc's throw setups work very well on Pikachu imo, and grabbing Pikachu isn't as difficult as it might seem, especially if you do it out of the first one or two hits of Doc's neutral combo.

I agree though that ZSS is a nightmare if only because Doc can't chase her around as well as he can Pikachu thanks to her weird moves (what do you do when ZSS Flip Jumps? Shield? Jump? Run? **** idk). The difference between ZSS and Pikachu is ZSS is 1000x better at zoning you out thanks paralyzer and plasma wire, and when Doc can get walled like that he's forced to retreat several times.

As for Doc vs. Luigi, we've seen Luigi do well in a lot of tournaments recently and I only ever see Doc used as a counter-character taken out of someone's pocket. I think most Doc players are afraid of using him because of how easily gimped he is and they're afraid of his slightly lower speed than Mario. Doc hits like a truck though, and isn't nearly as easy to gimp as Ganondorf or Little Mac. Additionally he's not that much slower than Mario, and actually does better against some characters. In short I think the lack of Doc usage has to do with the negative perception of his speed. So I have to withhold my judgement for now, though at this moment it does look like Luigi is better because of his recovery and down throw, as well as being slightly faster.

Luigi is faster on the ground but Doc is faster in the air. I haven't seen one Doc pro except TKbreezy and WeDemBoyz, but breezy mostly plays WFT. Meanwhile you got dudes like Boss putting Luigi on his pedestal. I'm not mad though, Boss was the one who inspired me to play Luigi again.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Doc's MU is the reason why i struggle to see how he's better than Luigi, honestly in tournaments you get high tiers popping up i think that's why people go with Mario competitively. This my opinion on his uneven MU's.

Spoiler

A chunk of these characters Luigi does well against which has been proven since he's been beating these so called high tiers and top 2 taking tourney victories consistently. Once Customs became a thing Doc will be the Anti Luigi he can beat characters normal Doc can't and go even against much more but i highly doubt Default Doc is better than Luigi.

As A2ZOMG said there's some MU that he loses randomly such as Game and Watch.

Spoiler

I'm pretty sure Luigi can handle everything Doc can. Even Sheik, who Doc has a bad matchup against does worse against Luigi than Doc. I don't think there's a matchup where Doc can do something Luigi can't.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Default Doc is not uneven vs. Falcon at all. Falcon dies from a single touch and his approach options are limited once Doc crouches (hell even before) thanks to his short hop. He has Dash Attack and Dash Grab, and a pretty poor neutral in that aspect. Doc's uptilt strings vs. Falcon for free and he can not Nair out of it, and since he's a fastfaller the damage racks up disgustingly quickly. I'd argue Doc can do just as good vs. Falcon as Luigi can even with defaults. In fact, Doc gets more damage off of a low % punish than Luigi does vs. Falcon barring a lucky cyclone gimp.

Olimar is funny, M@v and Dabuz (yes, that Dabuz) I believe discussed how Down-B basically pooped on Olimar overall, M@v brought it up in Competitive Impressions I think but god knows how you're going to find it.

Yoshi is probably even because Mario can handle Yoshi mostly fine and it's not cause of his mobility. Doc basically can do a lot of the things Mario can vs. Yoshi outside of specific combos. I'd wager it's either even or like, a SMALL minute advantage for Yoshi. I also don't see an issue with Link because Doc has a cape and while Link has disjoint he's not particularly fast. Oh and Doc's Utilt strings vs. him too I believe but I'll check his Nair data again.

Sonic is interesting, but Down-B beats Spindash so IMO his options are limited in the MU vs. Doc besides abusing his runspeed but Sonic has to worry about approaching Doc's frame data and since Doc has a basic hard counter to spindash I don't think it's too bad of an MU all things considered. Not favorable for Doc but I think he has good punish options so IDK if it's really that bad.

Fox I think is close to the Mario MU except maybe a bit worse, but Doc combos fastfallers better than Mario does and for more damage so I think the punish game is more crucial here. Probably close to Mario's MU since Fox doesn't really rely on gimps and usually ends up going on the offensive first. Maybe mild loss?

Ganondorf is funny. I don't think he beats Doc clean at all, he's too tall and slow to properly weave through Fullhop Pills or even short hop pills, and all of his stuff is laggy and takes full out commitment to throw out. It's not in Doc's favor but I consider it even. Customs Doc beats Customs Ganon though. Fast Capsule <3

Meta Knight feels too laggy to be really uneven for me as a Doc player. He has a sword but its range is mostly reduced and he's not incredibly fast. His offstage is where he's actually scary but he has to set that up first.

Wario I have no idea about, that one is probably weird but I don't know if uneven is how I'd call it. Their range is basically identical so it's a frame data match and I think Wario's Nair is too slow to escape Doc Utilt strings. It's probably closer than most think, Wario will definitely have to hit and run but if he's caught it's bad for him.

Keep in mind Doc's Utilt is actually much better than Mario's and I believe only a Nair of 3 frames or less can break out/trade with it.

Everything else I think is right about the less than good MUs but most of them are minor disadvantage (in fact Diddy is probably Doc's favorite top tier to fight because of good defensive options compared to Mario)

 

[warionumbah2]

Default Doc is not uneven vs. Falcon at all. Falcon dies from a single touch and his approach options are limited once Doc crouches (hell even before) thanks to his short hop. He has Dash Attack and Dash Grab, and a pretty poor neutral in that aspect. Doc's uptilt strings vs. Falcon for free and he can not Nair out of it, and since he's a fastfaller the damage racks up disgustingly quickly. I'd argue Doc can do just as good vs. Falcon as Luigi can even with defaults. In fact, Doc gets more damage off of a low % punish than Luigi does vs. Falcon barring a lucky cyclone gimp.

Doc can also die by simply being touched too by catching him when he uses his second jump, or Falcon can ledge snap and bair you at mid percents for an early kill. Limited approaches isn't bad, you know he has to approach but it doesn't mean you can stop it. Pills get power shielded, Docs nado can be beaten out by Falcons DA before he does a full spin. Doc can string utilts at lo w percents but then what? Down throw to uair does 12%. Falcon's Down throw to Uair is 16-19% Uair strings are easy to land on Doc and if you attempt to trade his uair you'll only lose since his nair does more damage the longer it stays out. Also down throw to knee true combo's from 40-80% you will die from this move this MU is in Falcons favor Utilt strings doesn't make up for how easily Doc gets juggled and Falcon can avoid nado gimps by mixing up his recovery so he isn't that helpless.

Olimar is funny, M@v and Dabuz (yes, that Dabuz) I believe discussed how Down-B basically pooped on Olimar overall, M@v brought it up in Competitive Impressions I think but god knows how you're going to find it.

I guess Luigi is top 5 since M2K and Zero said so.

Yoshi is probably even because Mario can handle Yoshi mostly fine and it's not cause of his mobility. Doc basically can do a lot of the things Mario can vs. Yoshi outside of specific combos. I'd wager it's either even or like, a SMALL minute advantage for Yoshi. I also don't see an issue with Link because Doc has a cape and while Link has disjoint he's not particularly fast. Oh and Doc's Utilt strings vs. him too I believe but I'll check his Nair data again.

Mobility is always a factor big or small, eggs are dangerous to use on Mario since he can run right under it Doc cannot do that instead he has to keep his distance. Docs Nado is useless on Yoshi because of super armor, Links Jab comes out fast and beats all your neutrals, cape isn't the biggest game changer as Link can use boomerang without worrying about damage only the wind comes back at him. Link can also utilt chain Doc and Doc unlike Link can't do a thing about it, range + disjointed hitboxes is a nightmare for Doc.

Sonic is interesting, but Down-B beats Spindash so IMO his options are limited in the MU vs. Doc besides abusing his runspeed but Sonic has to worry about approaching Doc's frame data and since Doc has a basic hard counter to spindash I don't think it's too bad of an MU all things considered. Not favorable for Doc but I think he has good punish options so IDK if it's really that bad.

Down B can be baited and punished hard, i can easily say MK hard counters his spin dash with nair and mach tornado but that doesn't change the fact that he can't handle his speed. One move doesn't tip the scale especially one with end lag such as nado, All Sonic has to do is spin dash then spring and mix up his landing, Doc will struggle to punish with anything other than DA. I never stated the MU is that bad its just not in his favour.

Fox I think is close to the Mario MU except maybe a bit worse, but Doc combos fastfallers better than Mario does and for more damage so I think the punish game is more crucial here. Probably close to Mario's MU since Fox doesn't really rely on gimps and usually ends up going on the offensive first. Maybe mild loss?

@bolds

Ganondorf is funny. I don't think he beats Doc clean at all, he's too tall and slow to properly weave through Fullhop Pills or even short hop pills, and all of his stuff is laggy and takes full out commitment to throw out. It's not in Doc's favor but I consider it even. Customs Doc beats Customs Ganon though. Fast Capsule <3

Its not in docs favor but you say its even, make up your mind brah. That's the whole point Ganondorf, it takes less reads to kill you not to mention his range on ground and aerial. Its almost impossible to get a good punish if Ganondorf whips out his U-Smash. I'll link you to a video of Ganon crushing MM projectile spam power shielding is all he needs. Lets not talk about soul crusher Doc this ain't customs. :]

Meta Knight feels too laggy to be really uneven for me as a Doc player. He has a sword but its range is mostly reduced and he's not incredibly fast. His offstage is where he's actually scary but he has to set that up first.

Why are people misinformed about MK? Anyway MK only aerials that lag is nair,fair and bair these moves won't be used on ground unless you're Jigglypuff or after down throw. Dtilt comes out at frame 3 and has a 25% chance of tripping, His range isn't that bad maybe ftilt and jab sure but his range is decent. All his moves outrange Docs neutrals, as you already know disjointed moves beat Docs attacks. You forget Docs range is bad, MK moves come at fast which is why his neutral game is so good: Dair comes out at frame 4fast enough to interupt Mario's utilt string,Dtilt comes out as fast or faster than your jab,DA has two hitboxes and comes out at 7,F-Smash kills as early as Docs and has little end lag almost Greninja U-Smash safe pre patch,Down smash comes out faster than Docs.

MK is the 9th fastest in dashing Doc is bottom 10, Docs off stage Nado is futile since MK can recover past him using DC. He can set up kill combo's such as, down throw to shuttle loop or DA to fh shuttle loop. MK has 6 jumps avoiding projectiles all together. Its MK favor there's no doubt in my mind or statistically.

Wario I have no idea about, that one is probably weird but I don't know if uneven is how I'd call it. Their range is basically identical so it's a frame data match and I think Wario's Nair is too slow to escape Doc Utilt strings. It's probably closer than most think, Wario will definitely have to hit and run but if he's caught it's bad for him.

Wario walls you out if fair can eat pills and halt your approach with Chomp. He can kill you wit waft using down b for recovery is a bad idea it makes aiming less of a chore. 55 seconds and waft turns into a kill move so long as you're at 80%.

Keep in mind Doc's Utilt is actually much better than Mario's and I believe only a Nair of 3 frames or less can break out/trade with it.

I guess research is needed to make this statement concrete, is there a frame chart for Doc???

Everything else I think is right about the less than good MUs but most of them are minor disadvantage (in fact Diddy is probably Doc's favorite top tier to fight because of good defensive options compared to Mario)

Minor disadvantages is something anyone would want to avoid, which is why i think Luigi is better. I'm actually shocked at the poll results this ain't custom Doc.

-Will edit post to add more things later-

 

[Kisatamura]

Doc can also die by simply being touched too by catching him when he uses his second jump, or Falcon can ledge snap and bair you at mid percents for an early kill. Limited approaches isn't bad, you know he has to approach but it doesn't mean you can stop it. Pills get power shielded, Docs nado can be beaten out by Falcons DA before he does a full spin. Doc can string utilts at lo w percents but then what? Down throw to uair does 12%. Falcon's Down throw to Uair is 16-19% Uair strings are easy to land on Doc and if you attempt to trade his uair you'll only lose since his nair does more damage the longer it stays out. Also down throw to knee true combo's from 40-80% you will die from this move this MU is in Falcons favor Utilt strings doesn't make up for how easily Doc gets juggled and Falcon can avoid nado gimps by mixing up his recovery so he isn't that helpless.

Falcon vs Doc is essentially who gets the first hit wins because as you said, Falcon's uair strings are easy to use on Doc and Doc is prey to Falcon's Dash grabs into Knee or what have you. Falcon offstage though is probably as bad as Doc, because I don't think Falcon will risk trying to use Raptor Boost if Doc is away from the ledge using Tornado (In which case Doc would probably use bair or cape), and Falcon Dive gets beat out by Tornado. I don't know about DA beating out Tornado, I've had it clash instead with Tornado.

I've always thought that pills against Falcon is something that should be used sparingly unless your Falcon opponent is having trouble avoiding it. While Falcon is big, he's fast enough to approach you. That being said, Falcon going in for a dash grab or DA should just be beat out with Doc's bair or UpB, and I know a Falcon isn't going to jump over a pill.

Doc has to read very well against Falcon, who is trying to do the same. Technically Falcon can rush down Doc but his neutral poking in this game tends to be high risk and high reward, while Doc can throw a pill and at least cause Falcon to react via powershield or jumping.

Yoshi is probably even because Mario can handle Yoshi mostly fine and it's not cause of his mobility. Doc basically can do a lot of the things Mario can vs. Yoshi outside of specific combos. I'd wager it's either even or like, a SMALL minute advantage for Yoshi. I also don't see an issue with Link because Doc has a cape and while Link has disjoint he's not particularly fast. Oh and Doc's Utilt strings vs. him too I believe but I'll check his Nair data again.

Yoshi should be 40:60 in Yoshi's favor since Tornado gimps won't work well against Yoshi, but that's about the only thing I can say since I don't know too much about the matchup. I mean, I guess Yoshi's dair can be countered by USmash, but his DA is too damn useful with his aerial strings.

Link should be advantage for Doc. Link can throw boomerangs, bows, bombs or his sword attacks but most of this can be easily taken away by cape or powershield, and Link has to commit to sword attacks, more so than Marth. Doc can jump over Link's projectiles and force him to react to pills, and Link is fairly easy to combo. Mobility isn't going to matter here since both characters are slow, but Doc has better frame data than poor Link other than his jab combo being relatively fast.

Also, Link's utilt string = Doc's UpB = bye bye

Wario walls you out if fair can eat pills and halt your approach with Chomp. He can kill you wit waft using down b for recovery is a bad idea it makes aiming less of a chore. 55 seconds and waft turns into a kill move so long as you're at 80%.

Wario suffers from the same problems as Mario, lack of a reliable kill move outside of Wario Waft. I mean, while Wario can play the runaway game he still has to approach Doc and both have the same range... fair though is one of Wario's greatest tools against Doc since it's got good range and is fast, but Doc can Tornado into it. You can bait Wario's Chomp though, since I usually use Chomp as a read to stop people from using low priority moves, and Doc's only one is DA and a poorly spaced Tornado.

I guess research is needed to make this statement concrete, is there a frame chart for Doc???

There is a frame chart, but it was recently discovered that all of Dr. Mario's attacks have their damage percents multiplied by 1.12, which causes some more hitstun in Doc's Utilt.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Whoever gets the first hit wins isn't really a disadvantageous matchup though lol. That's pretty ****ing fair, really. Falcon's neutral and approach are linear but Doc can't approach him so it's an even MU that hinges on forcing a reaction and capitalizing on said reaction to stack damage and kill him.

Also I'm pretty sure Dabuz's opinion on Olimar is to be taken pretty ****ing seriously because to claim that Doctor Mario can deal with him sparingly is not as audacious a statement as "ZERO SAID LUIGI IS TOP 5." There is obviously a limit to how seriously you take other players but this is literally MU advice, not some random tier list claim. That's an incredibly dumb comparison to make, please don't. Their reason was literally that outside of Pikmin everything Olimar has is pretty easy to answer ESPECIALLY with Down-B.

Also the research that proves Doc's Utilt is better already has been done. It KOs earlier and has higher damage which directly affects the knocback formula (thus, hitstun) meaning in execution since Mario's does 2% less Doc's traps notably better. And yes, a small percent difference like that actually does do a lot.

For the record I voted for Luigi on the poll but Luigi is better than both Marios because, big surprise, his strengths (and adversely weaknesses) are more pronounced.

Also Wario's chomp stopping an approach from Doc shouldn't matter because unless you have an exact idea of what you're doing you shouldn't be approaching recklessly with Dr. Mario at all, let alone against WARIO of all people. I stick with my claim because I sub Wario and I am damn sure that Wario doesn't beat Doc. Doc doesn't beat Wario either, however.