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Falco MU Discussion
- Thread starter -Mars-
- Start date
- slight disadvantage
- disadvantage
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
This is a fun match up, I'm not going to lie.
Sheik has f-tilt lock> USmash on Falco, but Falco has a long CG on Sheik.
A few things to remember in this match up are.....
You can crouch under lasers and if you are ahead it forces an approach.
Needles can be reflected but if spaced properly they will disappear before they hit Sheik.
Needles= anti Phantasm
Sheik has a nice f-tilt lock on Falco that leads into USmash for the kill.
Lasers are gay when not crouching.
Falco can Phantasm you if you are crouching... be watching for that.
He can CG you to like 60%. Play the spacing game and try not to get grabbed.
Sheik has f-tilt lock> USmash on Falco, but Falco has a long CG on Sheik.
A few things to remember in this match up are.....
You can crouch under lasers and if you are ahead it forces an approach.
Needles can be reflected but if spaced properly they will disappear before they hit Sheik.
Needles= anti Phantasm
Sheik has a nice f-tilt lock on Falco that leads into USmash for the kill.
Lasers are gay when not crouching.
Falco can Phantasm you if you are crouching... be watching for that.
He can CG you to like 60%. Play the spacing game and try not to get grabbed.
Don't be afraid to go to FD with Sheik in the neutral picking stage. You can compete against Falco's camping. Just keep charging your needles and canceling in order to block his lasers. Stay near or reasonably close to the edge of the stage, so that the Falco wouldn't phantasm liberally, and his approach options become much more limited. Also in FD you limit his recovery options a lot so edgeguarding is also much easier.
Juushichi
sugoi ~ sugoi ~
No, this MU is not a fun one. But I'm rather inexperienced in it, so I can only go off some general things.
1. Learn what you can/can't do to work around aerial Phantasm. Seriously. Learn the timing, know where you can hit Falco (at the front) and see what you can do that's fast enough to a) beat it and b) put yourself in a more favorable position. What I personally try to do is jump-nair (my fair game with Sheik is pretty poor, actually). I'm sure if you space it right, you could get a free usmash out of it.
2. Learn the zones that Falco can control and what we can do in those zones. Obviously lazers can reach a far distance, but keep wary of Falco's Ftilt range. That's his farthest reaching ground move and is one a Falco will use to try to keep you out. However, do be aware that B-Dacus and DACUS is a tool that Falco mains can use in order to break your spacing.
3. Pretty obvious, but: Avoid the grab at low %'s.
4. Kind of goes with 1, but if you get a Falco offstage (say, 1.5 to 2 character lengths away) there is no reason for you not to gimp the Falco. Learning the timing, distance (of both full phantasm and canceled) will help a lot. This is a MU where I can see on the edge Dsmash or juggle -> fair leads to a stock capture.
5. Oh yeah, adding an opinion. The way I see this MU going is through interrupts to set up our locks and stuff. If you can sneak a needle (or however many) in, do it. Same with DA, DACUS, Nair (to Phantasm) or whatever, you want to kill the Falco's flow. I think Falco is a pretty heavy momentum-based character, but that also depends on the player as well.
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Again, more general things... than I would say specific (as I'm used to fighting Falco's more with Mario than Sheik). But I think they'd help.
1. Learn what you can/can't do to work around aerial Phantasm. Seriously. Learn the timing, know where you can hit Falco (at the front) and see what you can do that's fast enough to a) beat it and b) put yourself in a more favorable position. What I personally try to do is jump-nair (my fair game with Sheik is pretty poor, actually). I'm sure if you space it right, you could get a free usmash out of it.
2. Learn the zones that Falco can control and what we can do in those zones. Obviously lazers can reach a far distance, but keep wary of Falco's Ftilt range. That's his farthest reaching ground move and is one a Falco will use to try to keep you out. However, do be aware that B-Dacus and DACUS is a tool that Falco mains can use in order to break your spacing.
3. Pretty obvious, but: Avoid the grab at low %'s.
4. Kind of goes with 1, but if you get a Falco offstage (say, 1.5 to 2 character lengths away) there is no reason for you not to gimp the Falco. Learning the timing, distance (of both full phantasm and canceled) will help a lot. This is a MU where I can see on the edge Dsmash or juggle -> fair leads to a stock capture.
5. Oh yeah, adding an opinion. The way I see this MU going is through interrupts to set up our locks and stuff. If you can sneak a needle (or however many) in, do it. Same with DA, DACUS, Nair (to Phantasm) or whatever, you want to kill the Falco's flow. I think Falco is a pretty heavy momentum-based character, but that also depends on the player as well.
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Again, more general things... than I would say specific (as I'm used to fighting Falco's more with Mario than Sheik). But I think they'd help.
clowsui
Smash Legend
This MU is really fun, lol. I know both sides of it.
Judo and I will record videos at SiiS4 if you guys really want an MU demo of this. I think it's an even matchup, even with a BO5 set.
Judo and I will record videos at SiiS4 if you guys really want an MU demo of this. I think it's an even matchup, even with a BO5 set.
Tewx2
Smash Ace
Oh lemme get in this vid recording pls.
This MU is even in my opinion. Like cg/f-tilt besides the point his jab is the same speed and longer ranged than ours. His dash attack sets up for frame traps. His bair anti aerials Sheik hard. His Sour spot dair has the same effect on us as kirby's bair. His recovery is limited on levels without platforms and levels with slants in them.
Basically everything that cross said is what u do to beat Falco. the biggest mistake u can make in this MU is trying to punish his rapid jab, just DI back and take the like 6 damage and wait for him to start doing punishable stuff.
This MU is even in my opinion. Like cg/f-tilt besides the point his jab is the same speed and longer ranged than ours. His dash attack sets up for frame traps. His bair anti aerials Sheik hard. His Sour spot dair has the same effect on us as kirby's bair. His recovery is limited on levels without platforms and levels with slants in them.
Basically everything that cross said is what u do to beat Falco. the biggest mistake u can make in this MU is trying to punish his rapid jab, just DI back and take the like 6 damage and wait for him to start doing punishable stuff.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Well, I'm bringing a recording set up. If you Sheiks want some games recorded let me know. If I'm not using it I'll let you use it.
Clow is close enough to a Sheik so he can use it to. xD
Clow is close enough to a Sheik so he can use it to. xD
Elyssa Xey Hexen
Broken!
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2008
- Messages
- 19,345
If you manage to get some needles charged, I recommend throwing them when he SHs.
Well this discussion is progressing at a snails pace.
I feel it's even...maybe a slight advantage to Falco.
At the beginning of the match I don't even charge needles I just crouch and see what they do. If they keep firing lasers then I just crouch for like a minute lol unless they do the little stage drop off laser thing in that case i shield and then begin charging needles.
The CG>spike on Sheik is actually very bad for us. Can lead to upwards of 60% in damage or even worse to a footstool gimp or something so I avoid being grabbed at all costs even if it means taking 30% in laser damage.
With crouching and Sheiks amazing dash shield lasers don't really pose much of a problem for me unless i'm trying to find time to charge needles. If you do have any charged up though trading isn't a bad idea since it takes Falco out of his flow.
He's better than us in the air imo. His bair is scary good.
Offstage I think we eat him up though. Once he's used his second jump you can throw a needle storm when he's right at an angle above the stage and then he has to buffer a phantasm so he can get the ledge or else he gets edge-hogged. Also if he ever uses up-b there is no reason why you shouldn't gimp him.....you can just drop down and bair. For future reference you can drop down and bair against a ton of characters lol.
Of course ftilt is Sheiks real claim to fame in the MU though. Basically you wanna chaingrab us? Then we got you back to even it out.
Pretty basic matchup since Falco strategy is pretty much standard amongst Falcos.
I feel it's even...maybe a slight advantage to Falco.
At the beginning of the match I don't even charge needles I just crouch and see what they do. If they keep firing lasers then I just crouch for like a minute lol unless they do the little stage drop off laser thing in that case i shield and then begin charging needles.
The CG>spike on Sheik is actually very bad for us. Can lead to upwards of 60% in damage or even worse to a footstool gimp or something so I avoid being grabbed at all costs even if it means taking 30% in laser damage.
With crouching and Sheiks amazing dash shield lasers don't really pose much of a problem for me unless i'm trying to find time to charge needles. If you do have any charged up though trading isn't a bad idea since it takes Falco out of his flow.
He's better than us in the air imo. His bair is scary good.
Offstage I think we eat him up though. Once he's used his second jump you can throw a needle storm when he's right at an angle above the stage and then he has to buffer a phantasm so he can get the ledge or else he gets edge-hogged. Also if he ever uses up-b there is no reason why you shouldn't gimp him.....you can just drop down and bair. For future reference you can drop down and bair against a ton of characters lol.
Of course ftilt is Sheiks real claim to fame in the MU though. Basically you wanna chaingrab us? Then we got you back to even it out.
Pretty basic matchup since Falco strategy is pretty much standard amongst Falcos.
Well, I'm guessing the MU discussion is moving slowly, because everybody generally agrees on the MU? Also why wouldn't you keep charging needles in the beginning? I mean it's nice to be an *** especially to a Falco, but an early % lead is also nice too.
Fuujin
Smash Champion
Basically whoever lands the chaingrab/tilt lock first starts to camp hard.
Not a fun MU.
Appraoch very carefully(only if you have to) at low percents to watch out for the chain grab
Just duck under blaster if you have the percent lead, he'll eventually approach of do that thing on the ledge to make the blaster go lower, that's easier to dodge though.
Don't try to out camp Falco with his projectile and reflector.
Learn to cancel his Phantasm, I try to use needles granted he's low enough or u tilt/n air if hes too high. If you space it right/he spaces it poorly you can get a tilt lock out of it (good Falcos will be watching out for this though).
As far as chasing him offstane, you better be sure that youre able to hit him out of his phantasm less you get spiked by it.
Falco will try to kill with blaster hit to bDacus or start throwing out b airs at higher percents.
Imo 45-55 just because Sheik has a harder time approaching when she fails to get the tilt lock first.
Trying to outcamp Falco will just result in you eating damage unless youre able to perfectly shield every blaster shot, then not to mention getting within range to hit him with needles and hoping he doesn't reflect them, you guys do realize his camping has no lag when done correctly and he can pull out his reflector easily right?
Finding an opening between his camping isn't worth all the damage you're likely to take from throwing needles at him.
Just save charged needles for when you actually have an opening to use them.
Not a fun MU.
Appraoch very carefully(only if you have to) at low percents to watch out for the chain grab
Just duck under blaster if you have the percent lead, he'll eventually approach of do that thing on the ledge to make the blaster go lower, that's easier to dodge though.
Don't try to out camp Falco with his projectile and reflector.
Learn to cancel his Phantasm, I try to use needles granted he's low enough or u tilt/n air if hes too high. If you space it right/he spaces it poorly you can get a tilt lock out of it (good Falcos will be watching out for this though).
As far as chasing him offstane, you better be sure that youre able to hit him out of his phantasm less you get spiked by it.
Falco will try to kill with blaster hit to bDacus or start throwing out b airs at higher percents.
Imo 45-55 just because Sheik has a harder time approaching when she fails to get the tilt lock first.
You can get like, one needle in before you get hit by his blaster at the beginning.
Trying to outcamp Falco will just result in you eating damage unless youre able to perfectly shield every blaster shot, then not to mention getting within range to hit him with needles and hoping he doesn't reflect them, you guys do realize his camping has no lag when done correctly and he can pull out his reflector easily right?
Finding an opening between his camping isn't worth all the damage you're likely to take from throwing needles at him.
Just save charged needles for when you actually have an opening to use them.
thexsunrosered
Smash Lord
also remember to chill with the chain on the edge while falco is recovering and when you see him phantasm on stage ledgesnap dropdown jump to meet him. this way you'll always know where he's gonna be. its just a matter then of whether the falco knows how to cancel his phantasm or not, but it still limits his options
Gadiel_VaStar
Smash Champion
Agreed, if you camp the edge, Falco's choices are to either: 1)roll behind you, 2) f-tilt/jab you, or 3)use an aerial. Most of these can be reacted to, which leaves Sheik in a better position to punish.
What do you mean Sheik can get one needle in before she gets hit by his blaster? Falco would most likely be doing SH double laser or single laser, but the first laser of double laser doesn't hit her, so he will hit with the second laser or a SH single laser. Either way you get at least two charges, before you have to shield.
Camping is stage dependent, but if we are just talking straight up camping on FD. Sheik imo has an advantage. Sheik just stays near the ledge and charges needle. If Falco's going to camp with lasers than he has one consistent option to hit you with, SH single laser. You could easily charge needles and shield if you know that's the only way he could actually hurt you with his camping. Of course he could run off stage and jump back on with two low lasers but that's easy to see coming.
His reflector is the one thing that keeps his camp game from getting ***** by Sheik, since needles punish landings, and Falco is landing all the time from his SH lasers. In its simplest, the camp game becomes a mixup of Falco's single laser and reflector vs Sheik's needles. Also keep in mind that at a far enough distance, reflected needles will not even reach Sheik. Also taking damage from Falco's camping at low %'s also accomplishes the goal of getting out of CG %'s. I honestly think camping is the best option for Sheik, especially at low %'s.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
huh i like that idea. Nice input.
Fuujin
Smash Champion
That's great on paper but power shielding and landing needles on a camping Falco isn't as easy as it sounds.
You guys should get some input from the Falcos on here.
imo one of the more practical ideas on paper. You're not going to be power shielding and landing needles every time, but you don't have to. Landing needles isn't that hard though, because in its basic (and I mean basic form) its a 50-50 guess on your part after he SH's. "Will he shoot a laser while landing or will he land with reflector instead?" Considering the fact that at a far enough distance reflected needles won't hurt you, and needle storm does 18% a pop fresh compared to the minimal damage of the laser. Camping against Falco isn't easy but approaching isn't a better option especially when you are still at CG %'s.
Also it's not like I'm theorycrafting this, Sethlon said it himself
Also it's not like I'm theorycrafting this, Sethlon said it himself