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Falco v Puff?

Fantasies

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 26, 2015
Messages
5
Location
Nova Scotia, Canada
I'm looking to become better with falco vs floaty characters, specifically puff and I'm just wondering how to play this matchup.
The thing I want to know is how to play the neutral against puff, preventing her from weaving with aerials and safe moves to go in with so I don't get shield grabbed doing unsafe options.
is laser>jab>grab a good tool in this matchup? and what throws should I look for?
hope I can get some help! :estatic:
 

20YY SS | Saiblade

Obviously not biased towards Falco
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,169
Location
Florida
3DS FC
3239-4949-5301
I'm looking to become better with falco vs floaty characters, specifically puff and I'm just wondering how to play this matchup.
The thing I want to know is how to play the neutral against puff, preventing her from weaving with aerials and safe moves to go in with so I don't get shield grabbed doing unsafe options.
is laser>jab>grab a good tool in this matchup? and what throws should I look for?
hope I can get some help! :estatic:
I hate the Puff-Falco matchup, it's why I picked up Fox, and that's honestly what I recommend, but always laser to interrupt her RARing.
 

KevJames

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
88
Location
NorCal
Dr. PP believes that the match-up is pretty even, so I'd recommend watching his videos of tournament matches against Jiggs. You normally want to take Jiggly to small stages and ban DreamLand. On small stages such as BF or YI, you can shine her off the top. Space yourself out with lasers and auto cancelled bairs. Have the presence of mind to always DI her throws, and if you aren't able to DI the grab, DI horizontally to respawn quickly and hopefully get a decent punish/kill trade.
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 28, 2006
Messages
1,948
Location
Hell
Haven't you seen westballz vs hbox yesterday? LOL

ppmd also has good matches against him, match up is weird and prone to be a disaster because tbh case the puff player would not play a lot diferent than he would play a fox, and he'll feel so much confident going off stage...
 

Varist

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 7, 2011
Messages
1,603
Location
Austin
this matchup is really good for falco as long as you don't do risky lasers and you practice your platform work. this country has a huge shortage of puff specialists so if you're not playing against someone who's much better than you and you don't fall into the obvious rest setups you will crush them
 

roboticphish

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
54
So, unlike Falco's matchups versus fast and medium fallers, you stand only to lose by being anything but frustratingly patient in floaty matchups. The Puff matchup basically boils down to locking her in one place on the ground and keeping her there until she messes up and you can start attacking her.

Let's start with Puff. Remember that Puff has the best aerial movement and control in the game. She is at home in the air, with terrific aerials and the ability to weave in and out of another person's range. If a Puff is in control, she will hover just outside of your range and poke at you/your shield with aerials. She can poke and weave back without ever touching the ground and thus can maintain control for a very long time. She's got 5 jumps and can autocancel several aerials. With a good read, she can hit you with a pound, a move which stays out a long time and has a wonky hitbox. What's worse, DI'ing any one of her aerials the wrong way is suicide. Puff gets kills off of guaranteed rest setups and DI traps. This is a matchup where you have to learn how to DI each attack. In addition, when Puff is on the ground, her most potent threat against you is grab. Be ready to DI away whenever you get grabbed, because upthrow is the constant threat. If you miss the DI on upthrow, you lose a stock.

So with that in mind, how do we approach these roadblocks as Falco?

First, notice that her grounded options are very limited. Her tilts are good, but situational. Dtilt is a decent poke, Ftilt is a good 'get off me' move, and Uptilt is a combo move. She also has grab and an okay jab. However, because her ground movement is so limited, she can't really maneuver is she's on the ground. So the first step in the matchup is to get her on the ground. The best tools for this are lasers, far and away. Unlike many other characters who are learning powershielding to keep up with Falco's oppressive laser game, Puff needs to stay in the air to maintain control and momentum, so powershielding isn't an option. If Puff takes to the air, she's a clay pidgeon. Reverse laser, runaway laser, do whatever you have to do to shoot the gun until Puff's movement carries her back down to the ground.

Once Puff touches the ground, that's where you take control. Space attacks in the exact same way a Puff would do to you; turn around and autocancel SHBairs until you force a reaction from her. You can also come in with late aerials (dair is good for shield stabbing and nair is good for shield poking) to shines. Her most notable grounded oos option is Upsmash (I think frame 8?), but she gets stuck in the endlag for forty years and you'll get plenty of time to come in with a dair or shine. So, if most Puffs are being pressured into shield they'll be looking for ways to take back to the air. If you have your back turned to her (and you should play a lot of time with your back towards her), you can catch her in the air with a Bair or an Utilt. Be patient, and wait for her to get caught by something you can follow up on.

Once you hit Puff, you actually can combo her pretty well. Dair -> shine -> falling dair -> Uptilt leads to just about anything at low-mid %s. If you're near platforms, you can meet her with a midair shine -> waveland to continue the combo, and on battlefield and yoshi's you can look to kill her off the top with a shine. If you send her horizontally, zone her out with bairs and keep the threat of your dair present. Edgeguarding Puff is difficult, but grabbing ledge and refreshing invincibility is good while you wait for the optimal time to do an invincible shine turnaround dair. NEVER chase Puff offstage, she will always win. Maintain stage control and once you've started comboing her, don't let her reach the ground. Exhaust all of her jumps and keep her unable to refresh them.

To recap. Before you get a meaty hit on her, get Puff onto the ground. Space around her grab and oos options and throw out safe attacks. Once you get a good hit on her, get a combo and keep her off the ground. Then kill her.
 

Steak&Cheese

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 24, 2015
Messages
11
Location
Worcester, MA
So, unlike Falco's matchups versus fast and medium fallers, you stand only to lose by being anything but frustratingly patient in floaty matchups. The Puff matchup basically boils down to locking her in one place on the ground and keeping her there until she messes up and you can start attacking her.

Let's start with Puff. Remember that Puff has the best aerial movement and control in the game. She is at home in the air, with terrific aerials and the ability to weave in and out of another person's range. If a Puff is in control, she will hover just outside of your range and poke at you/your shield with aerials. She can poke and weave back without ever touching the ground and thus can maintain control for a very long time. She's got 5 jumps and can autocancel several aerials. With a good read, she can hit you with a pound, a move which stays out a long time and has a wonky hitbox. What's worse, DI'ing any one of her aerials the wrong way is suicide. Puff gets kills off of guaranteed rest setups and DI traps. This is a matchup where you have to learn how to DI each attack. In addition, when Puff is on the ground, her most potent threat against you is grab. Be ready to DI away whenever you get grabbed, because upthrow is the constant threat. If you miss the DI on upthrow, you lose a stock.

So with that in mind, how do we approach these roadblocks as Falco?

First, notice that her grounded options are very limited. Her tilts are good, but situational. Dtilt is a decent poke, Ftilt is a good 'get off me' move, and Uptilt is a combo move. She also has grab and an okay jab. However, because her ground movement is so limited, she can't really maneuver is she's on the ground. So the first step in the matchup is to get her on the ground. The best tools for this are lasers, far and away. Unlike many other characters who are learning powershielding to keep up with Falco's oppressive laser game, Puff needs to stay in the air to maintain control and momentum, so powershielding isn't an option. If Puff takes to the air, she's a clay pidgeon. Reverse laser, runaway laser, do whatever you have to do to shoot the gun until Puff's movement carries her back down to the ground.

Once Puff touches the ground, that's where you take control. Space attacks in the exact same way a Puff would do to you; turn around and autocancel SHBairs until you force a reaction from her. You can also come in with late aerials (dair is good for shield stabbing and nair is good for shield poking) to shines. Her most notable grounded oos option is Upsmash (I think frame 8?), but she gets stuck in the endlag for forty years and you'll get plenty of time to come in with a dair or shine. So, if most Puffs are being pressured into shield they'll be looking for ways to take back to the air. If you have your back turned to her (and you should play a lot of time with your back towards her), you can catch her in the air with a Bair or an Utilt. Be patient, and wait for her to get caught by something you can follow up on.

Once you hit Puff, you actually can combo her pretty well. Dair -> shine -> falling dair -> Uptilt leads to just about anything at low-mid %s. If you're near platforms, you can meet her with a midair shine -> waveland to continue the combo, and on battlefield and yoshi's you can look to kill her off the top with a shine. If you send her horizontally, zone her out with bairs and keep the threat of your dair present. Edgeguarding Puff is difficult, but grabbing ledge and refreshing invincibility is good while you wait for the optimal time to do an invincible shine turnaround dair. NEVER chase Puff offstage, she will always win. Maintain stage control and once you've started comboing her, don't let her reach the ground. Exhaust all of her jumps and keep her unable to refresh them.

To recap. Before you get a meaty hit on her, get Puff onto the ground. Space around her grab and oos options and throw out safe attacks. Once you get a good hit on her, get a combo and keep her off the ground. Then kill her.
Cool. How is shield pressure on Puff? Is it worth going for double shines, and shine nair pressure? Is shine grab a better choice? Also, when should you be aggressive? You can't really bait out an attack with dd and punish like with a lot of other floaty match ups, can you?
 

roboticphish

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 19, 2013
Messages
54
Cool. How is shield pressure on Puff? Is it worth going for double shines, and shine nair pressure? Is shine grab a better choice? Also, when should you be aggressive? You can't really bait out an attack with dd and punish like with a lot of other floaty match ups, can you?
Uhm, you caaaan pressure Puff's shield, but it's super situational (like everything else in this game). If you're behind puff, let 'er rip. She can't grab you, and while she can upsmash oos, it's a heavy commitment and tight shield pressure beats it. Doubleshines are good if they're crispy, and stick with dair->shines instead of nair. Shield stabs with dair lead to way more, especially at <50%.

If you're in front of Puff, however, you have to play a different game. Because her grab is such a potent threat (remember, one grab can equal a quick death), you need to space around it regardless of how crispy you think your timing is. Frame perfect doubleshines will work, but messing them up will get you killed. Very high risk, and relatively little reward considering the other tools you have to accomplish the same thing. Instead, pressure her with autocancelled bairs (and weave in and out of range to just poke her shield and then get away) and nair->shines. Nair works better here because it gives you that little bit of extra range. Also, try to cross her up if you're in front; you can go ham on her from behind, and it'll pressure her into rolling 9 times out of 10.

Shine grabs are great against all characters always, but you've got to understand why you're using them. If you're going ham and just attacking her shield, only for her to buffer roll away (which you aren't punishing), then she's not feeling any pressure in her shield. You're just attacking it. That's where grabs come into play. The point of grabs when used alongside shield attacks is to make them feel tense and anxious in their shield. You want them to commit to laggy options, like an obvious roll, a shield grab, a bad upsmash oos, etc. If you're trying to pressure them, you shouldn't aim for breaking their shield or trying to get shield stabs, you should be aiming to punish those laggy reactions. The whole point of grabs with Falco (since you can't really get much off of them) is to make them feel like shielding is unsafe.

Also, your last point. Don't be aggressive in this matchup. As I mentioned in my OP, the key to winning Falco-Puff is a frustrating amount of patience. You need to A) keep Puff out of your space, B) get her locked down and onto the ground, and then C) keep her there. If you want to call that last part aggression I guess that makes sense, but in a high level match those opportunities won't come often. Be patient, and once Puff is locked down, then you can go in.
 

SomethingRaven

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 2, 2013
Messages
25
Location
Milledgeville, GA
For the floaty matchup in general I can give you some tips.

-If you're finding it difficult to approach puff on ground try staying on platform. Once on platform, if you can get puff below you, a drop down back air is a great too to put the match in your favor

-If the puff is back-air-approach happy try holding back and shooting high/medium lazers. Don't approach with these lazer either. Just try and get puff to stop his back air reign

To answer your specific questions
-Grabs you should look to side throws. I don't trust dthrow much and uthrow definitely isn't good. Although a nair can be a better option then grabbing in the first place

- lazer>jab>grab huh. Yeah I believe that is a good tool as it is in any matchup. Maybe just skip to the grab though. If you can space your approaching lazer right a jab will only offer more frames for them to escape the upcoming grab.


Also: Max rest punish
-Sure a charged up side smash is cool but not optimal. If the puff missed a rest at 0-30% [percents are guesstimated here] you should look for a Dair-> shine-> Dair -> Utilt and then follow up accordingly
 

flyboy__

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
46
If you're finding it difficult to approach puff on ground try staying on platform. Once on platform, if you can get puff below you, a drop down back air is a great too to put the match in your favor
I do not think that being on a platform against Puff is a good idea at all. At a low level, maybe it can be good since Puff probably won't time her upairs well. Around mid level, Puff will time her upair to hit after your in-place dair or will shark your dropthrough. Every Puff expects Falco to dair or bair off of a platform, and though these options are potent, their predictability makes them unnecessarily risky. This is practically evidenced by FD being Falco's best and most common counterpick in the MU.

My main advice on this matchup is to laser Puff every time she is about to hit the ground. Since Puff is an air-based character, lasering her many landings gets you 11 or 12 frames of hitstun + 4 frames of landing lag, granting 15 frame opportunities to freely encroach upon her "bubble." Your main goal should be to lock her down on the ground and shield pressure, always looking for roll since it is her most abused OoS. This is easier said than done since a good Puff should try to land close enough to safe bair or far enough that getting lasered won't matter.

Falco is traditionally bad in the corner, but he is even worse in this matchup since Puff can shark jumps, CC aggression and wait for rolls (the classic). All of these coverages can lead to instant stock loss because of rest. Therefore, the bird should avoid cornering himself at all costs. It is important to not over-retreat from Puff's bair onslaught and take space whenever Puff gives it up. When Falco is cornered, always mix up escape options. DO NOT ROLL IN frequently, but don't always attack out of the corner.
 
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