Flying Slam - Who has control? Update: Patch 1.06

[Zapp Branniglenn]

The amount of control both Bowser and the victim have on Flying Slam is decided not just by damage difference, but also which direction you both are attempting to travel, relative to the direction that Bowser was facing when he grabbed the opponent. In general, Bowser will have far less control over his own attack than the victim does, unless he has a significant percentage lead. The data of this thread focuses on how much less damage Bowser must have in order to actually have a greater control of Flying Slam than the opponent. But the damage difference is not consistent depending on whether Bowser is attempting to move in the direction he was facing, or opposite that direction. So I've run this test twice, once with Bowser attempting to move in the direction he was facing while his opponent fights back, and once with Bowser attempting to move in the direction behind where he was facing while the opponent fights back.

Update - 1.06 Patch: The latest patch has flipped the values on their head, now giving Bowser substantially more control over his own move. The old values were moved into a spoiler. Dash Slam values were untouched by the patch.

All damage values are approximations, rounded to the nearest 5%. And mentions of “half control” and “20% of control” refer to distance being traveled, and are also approximations. My eyes aren't perfect enough to be exact in these areas. Also, it goes without saying that in all of this data, the victim is fighting Bowser's inputs by pressing in the opposite direction he is, for the entire duration. This provides us with the most concise results. Finally, all data points are color coded to help compare. Let's begin.

Bowser is facing his intended direction

When Bowser has 110% more damage than the victim, his inputs seem to have no impact at all.
When Bowser has 80% more damage than the victim, he will lose about half of his control
When Bowser has 40% more damage than the victim, they will land straight down.
When both characters have the same percentage, the victim loses about 35% of their control.
When the victim has 10% more damage than Bowser, they lose about 50% of their control.
When the victim has 40% more damage than Bowser, their inputs seem to have no impact at all.

Bowser is facing away from his intended direction

When Bowser has 100% more damage than the victim, his inputs seem to have no impact at all.
When Bowser has 60% more damage than the victim, he will lose about half of his control.
When both characters have the same percentage, they will land straight down.
When the victim has 30% more damage than Bowser, they lose about 50% of their control.
When the victim has 60% more damage than Bowser, their inputs seem to have no impact at all.

The following data is Flying Slam's old control values prior to 1.06 patch.

Spoiler

Bowser is facing his intended direction: These results are when Bowser is trying to move in the direction he was facing when he got the grab, whether it is left or right.

When Bowser has 80% more damage than the victim, his inputs seem to have no impact at all.
When Bowser has 30% more damage than the victim, Bowser will lose about half of his control.
When both characters have the same percentage, Bowser will lose about 10% of his control.
When the victim has 10% more damage than Bowser, they will land straight down.
When the victim has 60% more damage than Bowser, they will lose about half of their control
When the victim has 100% more damage than Bowser, their inputs seem to have no impact at all

Bowser is facing away from his intended direction: These results are when Bowser is trying to move in the direction he was not facing when he got the grab.

When Bowser has 70% more damage than the victim, his inputs seem to have no impact at all.
When Bowser has 20% more damage than the victim, he loses half of his control
When both characters have the same percentage, Bowser will lose about 20% of his control.
When the victim has 50% more damage than Bowser, they will land straight down.
When the victim has 80% more damage than Bowser, they will lose about half of their control.
When the victim has 120% more damage than Bowser, their inputs seem to have no impact at all.

Dash Slam Testing - Custom Side B 2

Spoiler

*note that this variant of Flying slam takes both characters potentially 20% further when the victim does not fight at all. And even more than that when you factor in how Bowser dashes forward with victim in hand, before stopping to jump. Nevertheless, here are the results.

Bowser is facing his intended direction: These results are when Bowser is trying to move in the direction he was facing when he got the grab, whether it is left or right.

When Bowser has 70% more damage than the victim, his inputs seem to have no impact at all.
When Bowser has 30% more damage than the victim, he loses about half of his control.
When both characters have the same percentage, Bowser will lose about 20% of his control.
When the victim has 40% more damage than Bowser, they will land straight down.
When the victim has 100% more damage than Bowser, they will lose about half of their control.
When the victim has 170% more damage than Bowser, their inputs seem to have no impact at all.

Bowser is facing away from his intended direction: These results are when Bowser is trying to move in the direction he was not facing when he got the grab.

When Bowser has 30% more damage than the victim, his inputs seem to have no impact at all.
When both characters have the same percentage, Bowser loses about 60% of his control.
When the victim has 70% more damage than Bowser, they will land straight down.
When the victim has 130% more damage than Bowser, they will lose about half of their control.
When the victim has 170% more damage then Bowser, their inputs seem to have no impact at all.

It's been no secret that Bowser seems to always be fighting a losing battle regarding control of this move, but these results confirm our fears about how easy it is for the victim to force a suicide, should they have a reason to (like a stock lead). I look forward to discussion about this topic.

Spoiler

Frequently Asked Questions

Does rage mode or move staling have an effect on either character's control?

These factors only effect knockback and damage whenever damage is being dealt, so I'm going to say no.

Do stages effect the amount of control the characters have? Or perhaps the current phase of the moon?

Unlike whether or not the opponent can attempt a recovery on a successful bowsercide, this aspect of bowsercide does not seem to have such variants. But rest assured, I went and reproduced these results with multiple stages, different characters, and one round of testing on Friday the 13th.. This aspect of slam is consistent. Consistently bad.

UPDATE: Due to an inquiry by @ J Jerodak I have investigated the effects of mashing the C-stick during flying slam as you attempt to control it. The short answer is that mashing Smash commands cannot add to Bowser control, or the victims. It will cut off your characters control by a considerable amount if you mash in the direction opposite of where you're trying to move primarily, and I can't see how that might benefit you.

 

[Cassius.]

So in the instance at Apex when I saw that Zigsta had over a 100% damage lead on his opponent and still tried to drive the move towards center stage, it still ended up as a suicide. What happened?

Since it's between the 80% and 120% threshold, I'm not sure.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So in the instance at Apex when I saw that Zigsta had over a 100% damage lead on his opponent and still tried to drive the move towards center stage, it still ended up as a suicide. What happened?

Since it's between the 80% and 120% threshold, I'm not sure.

I didn't know how worth mentioning this was, but if you or the victim do not commit to a direction, the amount of control you lose pretty much subverts any damage lead that is to be considered. For instance, if I grabbed somebody to the right of me, on the right side of the stage, and my finger is still pressing the control stick to the right for a portion of the move's control, any double take I do to correct it will have extremely little impact if the victim knew from the beginning that they wanted to take it offstage.

...

I know how everybody feels about this tragic event, heck, it was even going to come up in the OP as the inspiration for this research, but I don't suppose you've taken any video evidence? I can't examine an anecdote. To answer your question, I'd have to see the distance that was traveled, make guesses at missed inputs from both players...we'd never really get to the bottom of it since it would all be guesswork without evidence. The match I assume you're referring to was the game 2 where he (supposedly):
- had as much as a 120% damage lead, a point where many other moves could have KOd with only a risk of a punish, not death.
- grabbed from the center of the stage
- did not mention which stage, but I'll guess Battlefield or Town and City,because of the victory screen ruling, stages known to kill Bowser first.
- the victim was laughing as if he knew what he had accomplished, and that this wasn't some grade school nightmare where Zigsta showed up to his match in his underwear
- was so out of it in his depressed state that he couldn't recall such details with clarity
- chose an option that he then knew for sure was ruled against him.

I'm sorry but I can't take this entire story as fact. And it pains me to say all of this about a respected player. How could I not believe that this move ****** him over, especially with the data I've posted on this and other topics? This thread wasn't meant to debunk, it was meant to explain the factors we need to know. And if you want my opinion on the matter, he made a bad call. Choosing a suicide move with no verified suicide clause, with a character that had at least five other moves that could score a KO with less risk than the potential of death over a hard punish. While I have no doubt that he went for a flying slam in his story, I also have no doubt that was a choice worthy of losing a match over.

 

[Zigsta]

I honestly don't know what to say. I've been over my story a ton. Nothing was made up. Why someone would think I made up details about what happened boggles my mind.

I'm done, though. Enjoy speculating whatever it is you think happened.

 

[Cassius.]

None of what he said was made up, man.

I was literally at APEX with him when the **** happened lmao

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Why was I right in thinking this discussion would be taken off the rails so quickly? Can you see now why I neglected to bring up this famous story in the OP? You are both fools, with no grasp of authorial intent, and a religious tendency to see things from only your perspective. I did not ever call Zigsta a liar, I only asked for proof if you wanted a part in this discussion. And if you don't have that, then I have nothing to say to such toxic behavior. You may now exit this discussion.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Zapp Branniglenn No one's attacking you or this thread directly. All Cassius wanted was to make sure other player experiences were factored. If Zigsta expressed his disappointment, then let it be. Any further dissatisfaction towards members in specific should be directed at those members via PM or to a Mod (sup, buddy).

Furthermore, and this is for everyone, discussion on the intelligence of members on this board have no relevance to the discussion and will be mercilessly removed. PM or Settle it In Smash.

This thread needs no defending by the OP. It's about personal testing and experience. While it could have been placed in the Moveset Data & Discussion and not look out of place, this thread can be used to request specific tests to be performed or to ask the OP more questions.

As for the % and overall control loss, this is basically already a rule of thumb for me when I plan on landing Klaw, if at all. Though, it's good to know that opponents generally have more control taking us off-stage rather than towards the stage, versus just "Bowser loses." Center stage Klaw will be that much more effective in placing an opponent at a disadvantage. My only question is if there's a difference with Aerial Klaw or not.

 

[Uncle]

@ Zapp Branniglenn : First off, I want to thank you for doing all of this research and presenting enlightening data about Bowsercide control. Like you said, it does indeed confirm the general fears regarding Bowser fighting a losing battle when he attempts to control the maneuver. The opener of your thread was great, in all regards.

After that, things got messy. Did you really have to call people fools? Ultima already said what I wanted to say regarding that.

Also, I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding going on......

Zigsta's story at APEX was never about Bowsercide control. He had control of his opponent, and he wanted to Bowsercide her, because he was explicitly told that there was a Suicide Clause in favor of Bowser. I even went back and re-read the story.

We ultimately end up on our last stock, with me at about 30% and Nyani at about 130%.

This is consistent with your findings. Zigsta wanted the Bowsercide, and there was nothing Nyani could do about it at those percentages.

I also went for Klaw specifically because--and this is the REAL kicker here--I was told by an Apex TO prior to the tournament (because I specifically asked) that Bowser was included in the Suicide Clause. So I went for the Koopacide and intentionally aimed offstage, knowing full well that Town and City results in a loss for Bowser on the results screen.
As the results came up, Chibo and Nyani jumped for joy, and Chibo whipped out the Apex ruleset on his phone and said Nyani wins because "Apex rules, Apex rules!!" I asked to have the TO I spoke with earlier brought over, who apparently wasn't there. Someone went and spoke with the almighty TOs who basically told me tough ****, you lose.

There you have it.

 

[Cassius.]

I brought up the second suicide instance because I was trying to figure out where that fit in the data that you found.

That was a real instance that occurred and I was trying to figure out how the data could be applied to that to prevent this from happening again. This instance that I am referring to is not the one that involved him and Nyani, just so you all know. That was the first match that he lost in his pool.

I'm not going to address anything else you said. I just want my question answered, regardless of what your opinion about me or Chris is. Thank you.

 

[Uncle]

Welp, I'm responsible for the misunderstanding too. Sorry about my fumble, guys.

As I continued re-reading the story, I found the instance Cassius was talking about.

Next round I don't even remember the name of the person I played, but I felt completely out of it. His Mario barely beat me game one. Then game two he shield in the middle of the stage, and I Klaw him when he's at 140% and I'm at 20%. I aim in the center of the stage towards the platform, and he aims offstage...and thanks to Smash 4 mechanics, sometimes the game randomly lets Bowser's opponent have more control over Klaw even when there's a vast chasm in percentages. I unplugged my controller and said "good game" even though my opponent AND his friends were laughing at me. Because he made a poor move (shielding) and I got punished for it.

This one, right?

 

[Cassius.]

Yes. This is certainly the more questionable one. By what Chris said, he had a sizeable lead, and did not aim to go offstage with the move at all. However, he ended up flying completely offstage while being in the center of the stage when he initiated the attack. I want to know what's up with that, and that's why I posted about that.

 

[Big Sean]

Yes. This is certainly the more questionable one. By what Chris said, he had a sizeable lead, and did not aim to go offstage with the move at all. However, he ended up flying completely offstage while being in the center of the stage when he initiated the attack. I want to know what's up with that, and that's why I posted about that.

This seems consistent with what @ Zapp Branniglenn said. If zigsta's opponent was holding the direction before zigsta decided to move towards the stage, then zigsta would have lost most of the advantage. This seems completely in the realm of possibility that zigsta simply started holding the direction a few frames too late.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The lack of control Bowser has on Klaw is dumb. It's basically only use this move if you and your opponent want to go the same way.

If I was Zigsta in that match where the game said he lost and the peeps running it said you lose because Apex I wouldn't have said good game, just silence. After all laughing at you after you basically won the battle is not at all honorable or good sportsmanship. Regardless of what rules say if the initiator got the suicide off and they had a huuuuuuuge lead I would easily forfeit my match to that person. Not everyone is like me I guess though.

No one should EVER be punished for punishing your opponent and then lose the match for it. Instead of being rewarded for your opening you got the short end of the stick. Which is honestly unacceptable.

 

[Jerodak]

I recall someone mentioning that using a C-stick to mash a direction might have favorable effects. Would you be able to test either of these to make sure?

Due to the way the control works, it sounds like it might make it really hard to land in a specific area, like a platform, are there any techniques to make this easier?

If you grab the opponent, and hold the direction you want to go first, and they try to correct by pressing the opposite direction does that affect their control as well? If so then maybe just holding the direction as the klaw is happening would be favorable since it's possible to surprise the opponent with it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The opponent still has more control regardless. I've tested this stuff with Lvl9 CPU's as well as with one of my siblings. If mashing the C stick yields any kind of difference it is rather insignificant.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Does anyone know who would be the people to e-mail to regarding this problem with side-B in Nintendo's Dev team?

I am asking because up until now I do not know whether this issue is of knowledge to Nintendo yet. It's already awful that they made the change that they did several patches ago.

Although it being so near patch day, attempting to acknowledge them may not be a bad idea.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Seems impossible I'm afraid.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm not going to address anything else you said. I just want my question answered, regardless of what your opinion about me or Chris is. Thank you.

My apologies, I overreacted in thinking that this thread would turn into this one. And I've had enough of that discussion. I understand if that little spat proved too distracting from my answer to your question, but it is unchanged. You claim the grab was performed at the middle of the stage, but that's not precise enough. No stage, not even Battlefield, the smallest legal stage that awards a loss to Bowser, potentially lets Bowser travel from the very middle, past the ledge. It's not possible. Also, could I finally get confirmation that this match happened on Battlefield? And even if you could tell me precisely how much distance was traveled, we'd need to know what both Bowser and the victim were doing during the grab. Something you'd never know. Did Bowser start the move as an intentional Bowsercide out of habit or without conscious thought? Did the victim (intentionally or not) keep his control stick pressed toward the ledge from the beginning? One or both of these possibilities could answer what happened that day.

My only question is if there's a difference with Aerial Klaw or not.

I've found no difference in the amount of control characters can exert when air grabbing. Whether the victim was grounded or in the air before being grabbed also has no impact. But I can provide details on air grabbing.

When bowser air grabs an opponent while in motion, he'll continue in motion at the same air and falling speed, until he jumps in the air. Note that in Smash 4, performing moves after a fast fall will not retain the fast fall. Thus fast falling before an air grab is not the key to a guaranteed Bowsercide. Only at the jump can both characters exert control as normal. If Bowser lands after an air grab, but before they jump, the move transitions to the ground version, where no motion is possible before the jump. If the victim was also in motion before being grabbed, that seems to have no impact while they are in Bowser's hand. The same is true of Dash Slam, only this move by design propels Bowser forward. I notice that when he air grabs the victim, Bowser will not travel the full distance of Dash Slam before stopping to jump, unless of course he grabs at the end of the Dash, then it makes no difference. Basically, Dash Slam will not preserve Bowser's air speed as they fall, instead cutting it considerably.

I might set this information somewhere in the OP, because it is relevant information for offstage grabbing, but it also has nothing to do with characters exerting control.

I recall someone mentioning that using a C-stick to mash a direction might have favorable effects. Would you be able to test either of these to make sure?

Due to the way the control works, it sounds like it might make it really hard to land in a specific area, like a platform, are there any techniques to make this easier?

If you grab the opponent, and hold the direction you want to go first, and they try to correct by pressing the opposite direction does that affect their control as well? If so then maybe just holding the direction as the klaw is happening would be favorable since it's possible to surprise the opponent with it.

I meant to clarify this better in the OP. But when Bowser has the damage lead on the opponent, the effect is completely detracting the opponents control from its maximum state. In other words, when the opponent is grabbed 120% by a 0% Bowser with Flying Slam, they literally can't take the move in either direction. Bowser keeps his full range of control as if they were making no inputs.

Regarding the C-stick, wow this is weird. I should note that I needed three "hands" for this, so my mashing of the C-stick was not quite as fast as possible. First, it should be noted that, if you simply hold it, it will not substitute the control stick for controlling this move as either player. But when mashed during your attempts to control with the control stick, the results were bizarre. The victim completely lost control when the c stick was mashed. I even tried mashing the C stick halfway into the move's control stage. The game just stops reading their control stick input as soon as they press the C-stick. To clarify, the victim forfeits control when mashing or holding the C-stick

As for Bowser, it's completely different. Bowser also can't control the move by holding C-stick, but he can control through mashing, and the speed of mashing effects it. You'd have to mash inhumanely fast in order to reach the full distance through C-stick mashing alone. But, add it to normal control with the control stick, and Bowser gains more control of the move! This is an incredible find. Just remember that Bowser mashing C-stick will make him exert the added control in the direction you're mashing. So if you want to move right, mash the C-stick right. Mashing in the direction the victim chooses adds to their control, not Bowser's. I will update the OP with this info.

I'm considering running tests on just how much of an impact it makes but it will be difficult to quantify. My most consistent pace with mashing C-stick is about 4-5 times a second. Rerunning my tests and making new lists to include C-stick would be doable, if time consuming. I think instead I should simply tell people in the OP that mashing has a very tangible effect, and there's no reason to not do it. In the mean time, I can rerun specific scenarios from my tests and guage the results of the mashing. Then make a guesstimate of "if you mash this much in Bowser's direction your control is boosted by about X% in general".

 

[Jerodak]

As for Bowser, it's completely different. Bowser also can't control the move by holding C-stick, but he can control through mashing, and the speed of mashing effects it. You'd have to mash inhumanely fast in order to reach the full distance through C-stick mashing alone. But, add it to normal control with the control stick, and Bowser gains more control of the move! This is an incredible find. Just remember that Bowser mashing C-stick will make him exert the added control in the direction you're mashing. So if you want to move right, mash the C-stick right. Mashing in the direction the victim chooses adds to their control, not Bowser's. I will update the OP with this info.

So just to clarify, if I want to go right and my opponent wants to go left, I should hold right and mash left on the C stick? Also, does this work if I'm using a B stick (Specials) or an A stick (Tilts/Attack)?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So just to clarify, if I want to go right and my opponent wants to go left,

That's precisely the opposite of what I said. The direction of C stick mashing must coincide with your direction with the control stick. As to B-sticks and A-sticks, I'll get to that. This is game changing information you've presented. Where did you hear of it?

I've already stumbled on the first drawback. It doesn't seem to work when traveling in the direction of the stage, under any circumstance. It for sure works for intentional bowsercides, but has seemingly no impact when fighting against the victim who is forcing you to suicide.

In any case, err, keep talking so I don't have to double post. I haven't even confirmed whether this works with Dash Slam either.

 

[Jerodak]

That's precisely the opposite of what I said.

Oh, I must have misread it then.

 

[S_B]

I hope to hell they fix Bowsercide in the next patch.

The move was CLEARLY meant to give Bowser the win on the last stock...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but I really hate this move. This topic of control was consistent, it really was! But in testing the results of C-stick mashing, it is no longer. I just got it to work on an unintentional bowsercide scenario, and I think I got it to work with the victim as well. Two aspects I thought I had disproven. And sometimes it's failing to have any effect at all. I'm trying to refine my testing method, but it's exceptionally hard to do with my hands alone. I'd love to set up a testing session with another person to help me confirm what little I understand.

Until then, I need more time in general before I can hand down a verdict on C-stick mashing.

 

[Corgian]

I'd love to set up a testing session with another person to help me confirm what little I understand.

Until then, I need more time in general before I can hand down a verdict on C-stick mashing.

There is much to be said about using tape, or even presetting inputs (when you hold a direction down before plugging in a controller). Mashing the C-stick would be hard to recreate without a second person, but not impossible. Pausing the game after you have initiated the grab and then picking up the controllers and mashing the C-sticks in opposite directions to see who has control would work. I just really want this data. @ Zapp Branniglenn this stuff still works in online albeit with a slight lag, so if you need I can help with the testing if need be.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

There is much to be said about using tape, or even presetting inputs (when you hold a direction down before plugging in a controller). Mashing the C-stick would be hard to recreate without a second person, but not impossible. Pausing the game after you have initiated the grab and then picking up the controllers and mashing the C-sticks in opposite directions to see who has control would work. I just really want this data. @ Zapp Branniglenn this stuff still works in online albeit with a slight lag, so if you need I can help with the testing if need be.

Here's the way I've been testing so far. I use the wii U gamepad as my second controller simulating the victim, and a custom stage with an elevated structure that tall characters like Ike cannot walk under. I then use my elbow to apply pressure to make them walk in this structure constantly as I set up for my grab with Bowser on my main controller. Once I grab, I reach over to the gamepad's right control stick, which functions as a C-stick, and mash that as my other hand operates Bowser's control stick. And for testing Bowser's C-stick inputs, I can keep my hands where they are on my main controller. The gamepad's screen lets me keep a close eye on what's happening in the game, as well as make sure my elbow does not slip from its position.

In reevaluating my testing methods, I have altered my custom stage enough to find the true variance of Bowser's control over the move. It is not dictated by Bowser's position to the right or left of the center stage. It is instead decided by whether Bowser is attempting to move in the direction he was facing when he got the grab. I compared to my previous results of "intentional/unintentional Bowsercide" and found the results to fit with this new criteria. It's a little embarrasing, but I apologize for this error. The OP is updated with this corrected info.

As for c-stick mashing. Results are still inconclusive at this time. And after my glaring error from before, I am taking greater care before assigning my verdict. What I can say for certain is that we should not attempt c-stick mashing. The only results I'm getting now are having adverse effects on Bowser's control.

 

[S_B]

Ah, so Dash slam definitely gives more control to the opponent...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ah, so Dash slam definitely gives more control to the opponent...

Sounds like every bowser should use dash slash if that's the case.

 

[S_B]

Sounds like every bowser should use dash slash if that's the case.

Yeah, compare the numbers in the spoiler and it's clear that dash slam was DEFINITELY balanced around the idea that the opponent would NOT want to be taken over the edge instead of readily wanting to.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah, compare the numbers in the spoiler and it's clear that dash slam was DEFINITELY balanced around the idea that the opponent would NOT want to be taken over the edge instead of readily wanting to.

Yeah pretty sure it was for bowser to take the win. I blame magicant and the flying men for our suffering.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

So C-stick mashing turned out to be a dead end. The short answer is that mashing Smash commands cannot add to Bowser control, or the victims. It will cut off your characters control by a considerable amount if you mash in the direction opposite of where you're trying to move primarily, and I can't see how that might benefit you. Same deal if you mapped your second control stick to "special move" or "attack".

I was really hoping there was some secret command or programming quirk that boosts Bowser's control. Something akin to Bowser's Whirling Fortress Boost. So I went and tried out a few oddball techniques like mashing jump during Flying Slam, or pausing before trying to control it. No such luck.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Don't want to say I told ya so. But. I told ya so.

 

[B!squick]

Any bets on what'll happen with this once the patch hits? Nintendo seems to be run by moonmen, so I can't say. It's equally likely that Bowser will be given more, less, or the same amount of control as before, much less consistent results with Bowercides.

 

[S_B]

Time to retest all of this, buddy: Bowser now has TONS more control over it!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It is true. Patch 1.06 gave Bowser's Flying Slam (but not Dash Slam) much more control. And I finally have time to sit down and crank out some new data values. I will put the old values in the OP in their own spoiler so that the proof of change is still chronicled for future reference. Without further ado, this is the new, improved Flying Slam:

Bowser is facing his intended direction

When Bowser has 110% more damage than the victim, his inputs seem to have no impact at all.
When Bowser has 80% more damage than the victim, he will lose about half of his control
When Bowser has 40% more damage than the victim, they will land straight down.
When both characters have the same percentage, the victim loses about 35% of their control.
When the victim has 10% more damage than Bowser, they lose about 50% of their control.
When the victim has 40% more damage than Bowser, their inputs seem to have no impact at all.

Bowser is facing away from his intended direction

When Bowser has 100% more damage than the victim, his inputs seem to have no impact at all.
When Bowser has 60% more damage than the victim, he will lose about half of his control.
When both characters have the same percentage, they will land straight down.
When the victim has 30% more damage than Bowser, they lose about 50% of their control.
When the victim has 60% more damage than Bowser, their inputs seem to have no impact at all.

So how does everybody feel about these changes? This is not at all what I expected them to change about flying slam. The move remains bugged in the sense that double KOs and victim releases before death are still stage dependent. If I had to guess, the designers must like the idea of this move killing Bowser first, affording a loss to him when both characters are on final stock. Now that I've seen them buff Bowser's control to this much extent, I honestly wouldn't mind if that were the consistent result, rather than a double KO.

And look at the difference in values! Bowser doesn't need that large of a damage lead at all to have the majority of control. Getting intentional Bowsercides should be trivial in order to secure quick wins. And the chance of unintentional Bowsercide is far more slim. It's really two amazing buffs, and Flying Slam is starting to look like it's on the same calibur as Dash Slash already. And I really like them keeping the old values for Dash Slam, since that move has an easier time grabbing in the first place, it deserves greater counterplay from the victim in my opinion. What a competent balance of the three moves.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I still don't agree with bowser dying first since bowser is on top of his opponent. The better control is nice but as it stands the hitbox to land is still complete ass.

Plus they made the application of dash slash too good to even consider using anything else.

Much like his other neutral specials basically say don't use the other customs.

 

[Shiny_Rayquaza]

The amount of control now feels amazing. Almost otherworldly.

 

[33percentgod]

But the opponent still has the ability to recover to the ledge after YOU die. It's still a complete BS move. If you're grabbed by Ganon and he does the suicide choke he wins, but if you grab him and flying slam him off the ledge....he wins too? It's absolute horse s*it what they did to this move. I've done a flying slam on ROB and he can fly right up and recover while I die. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!

Bowser already has enough of a disadvantage compared to the other roster and now you take this from us to? Enough is ENOUGH already.

 

[MagiusNecros]

But the opponent still has the ability to recover to the ledge after YOU die. It's still a complete BS move. If you're grabbed by Ganon and he does the suicide choke he wins, but if you grab him and flying slam him off the ledge....he wins too? It's absolute horse s*it what they did to this move. I've done a flying slam on ROB and he can fly right up and recover while I die. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?!

Bowser already has enough of a disadvantage compared to the other roster and now you take this from us to? Enough is ENOUGH already.

Just use Dash Slash. Trust me I have long moved on. I have accepted we can't have nice things. So enjoy dash slash while you can.

Also blame magicant.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

But the opponent still has the ability to recover to the ledge after YOU die.

This is absolutely true of specific stages, including too many omega stages to keep track of. If you ask me, Battlefield would be the absolute best stage for Bowser, if not for the fact that it releases the opponent before death. Ditto to Lylat Cruise. It's a real shame.

However, there are more dimensions to Flying Slam as a move than suiciding with it. We're talking about a frame 8 command grab that clocks 18% damage upon landing, puts the enemy above you, letting you maintain a positional advantage, and can be manuevered onto a platform for surprisingly early kills. Like 60-70% on our nemesis, Shiek with Battlefield's top platform - holy cow! The increase in control did not fix Bowsercide, however, it's a considerable buff to the move now that you can punish or kill opponents with it without the fear of them taking you over the edge.

And it's a command grab! I cannot stress how wonderful these moves are in Smash 4's unique, Shield-centric meta.

 

[33percentgod]

This is absolutely true of specific stages, including too many omega stages to keep track of. If you ask me, Battlefield would be the absolute best stage for Bowser, if not for the fact that it releases the opponent before death. Ditto to Lylat Cruise. It's a real shame.

However, there are more dimensions to Flying Slam as a move than suiciding with it. We're talking about a frame 8 command grab that clocks 18% damage upon landing, puts the enemy above you, letting you maintain a positional advantage, and can be manuevered onto a platform for surprisingly early kills. Like 60-70% on our nemesis, Shiek with Battlefield's top platform - holy cow! The increase in control did not fix Bowsercide, however, it's a considerable buff to the move now that you can punish or kill opponents with it without the fear of them taking you over the edge.

And it's a command grab! I cannot stress how wonderful these moves are in Smash 4's unique, Shield-centric meta.

I only own the 3DS so For Glory is flat, no platform stages. Meaning this move is a death trap for me.