G&W Theorycrafting Thread

[Jim Morrison]

Hey all,

I'd like to talk with you about Game and Watch and him in the game. Not just like a guide, but actual discussion on situations, concepts, uses of moves, etc. A general topic where you just leave your thoughts that might have just come to you about the character (or even just the game itself). I'll be talking about some topics by myself, and I really hope to get some feedback from others about what they think of it (preferably negative, as that forces me to think about the situation again). I also want to encourage everyone to just post little things or big things they've been thinking of, whether you've been a Game and Watch player for ages, barely started or don't even play the character at all.
I just think some in-depth talk would be good. If there's no real interest in the thread, I would still like for this to stay open as I personally really enjoy writing the thoughts in my head down, so I can concretely think about it, it helps thinking a lot, and I encourage others to write about the game too!

 

[Crezyte]

Cool, I look forward to this. Here's something I wanted to talk about:

Edge canceling from the ledge. As in, DJ from ledge -> fade forward + aerial -> fade backwards +edge cancel -> regrab.
I'd like to know when you think this could be more preferred than just aerial regrabbing ledge.

I'm going to try out using this with N-air and wavelanding on stage after the edgecancel to mix up my getting-back-on-stage game. I've been told that I either f-air back on stage or waveland and it is getting predictable..

 

[Jim Morrison]

Forward Air

​

The first thing I'd like to talk about is one of Game and Watch's most basic bread and butter moves. Forward air is a great aerial, being relatively safe. Forward air is a very important tool, because when you are in the air and facing an opponent, it is the only (not really, but safe) option covering you from eating their stuff.
Some important properties:

• It is comparable to Ganondorf's F-air in properties; Range, landing lag, startup, total frames. It is, however, a lot more disjointed and stays out for much longer and has less shield stun
• When done from a full hop, you can either jump again, wavedash back or forward. You can not pull out F-air near the ground again
• When not spaced properly (landing right in them), a perfectly SHFFL'd F-air is shield-grabbable (tested on Fox with 20XX).
• When spaced very well, there are very few ways to punish. Marth's shield grab doesn't reach and you can shield before he can F-air out of shield.

I started this thread with F-air in mind. I wanted to talk about the usage of F-air by G&W players. Something I expierence myself a lot is just wanting to jump in with Forward Air. I come from a very long history of maining Fox, where you can N-air in with relative safety. After having done this a few times without thinking, I noticed it's a very poor habit and gets me grabbed so, so many times.
What is more important than hitting someone with a Forward Air and getting the hit off it, is getting the opponent to respect your -possibility- to Forward Air. After you get that, you can start mixing it up quite a lot. First thing's first is that you need to feel out your opponent. You can do this by just jumping in with the forward air, taking the risk, but instead of looking for if it hits, take a very important mental note of what the opponent does. Does he put up his shield and take the hit? Does he dash dance and move back? Does he Forward Smash right through you? These are important things to take note off.
If you notice them putting up their shield, you have established a F-air threat. You get to jump in now, and they will have to react. You can opt to empty jump > waveland forward >grab as they put up their shield. They don't put up their shield? Waveland back and try to read them again or overshoot a Forward Air (risky, as always).
If you see them dashing back, it's a lot more difficult, -especially- when fighting against Fox, because his dash is much faster than your air speed and he can just react and dash out of reach and run back in and punish with a grab. Against these opponents, F-air is not a great approach to just shoot at them. You have to massively overshoot if you want to hit, but it's a lot safer to look for other options, like wavedash Jab and quickly move out again if you missed.

This all is in the case of a very defensive opponent, where you are forced to approach. Luckily, quite a lot of people who play the game don't have the patience to keep waiting out Game and Watch players if they just don't approach. However, what you definitely cannot do as Game and Watch is just sit back and wait for them, as that will most likely result in you getting top-tiered and outpressured. What you want to do is keep your movement going and find the perfect spacing where you can hover around them with wavedashes (I'll come back to the topic of positioning, this is also very important), where you still able to react to them coming in, like a Fox with a N-air. A retreating SH F-air is a very safe option in this case, however you do give up stage position for this. You can also choose to go for a SH F-air in place. I can highly recommend trying to find this zone and get yourself below a platform, this limits their angle of approach quite a lot and allows for easy hits of F-air.

Now what do you do of a hit of F-air? Just hitting it is quite a small reward, it does some 15%, but you will not win with that. Most definitely the biggest cockblock of all when F-airing someone is when they crouch cancel it. If your F-air gets crouch canceled, expect to eat a huge punish for it, so be very careful at what % you F-air into them. Them crouch canceling happens a lot more when you go into them. When they come into you, they don't expect to get hit and therefore don't crouch cancel, making this the safer F-air.
When you hit it at medium % on a fastfaller, they will fall to the ground and be forced in a tech situation, or fall and be open for the follow-up. Tech Chasing with Game and Watch is a different subject I would love to discuss with someone later on.
When you hit at medium % on a 'floaty', for example Marth, he gets popped up in the air, depending on his DI. If he does survival DI in, you can get off either another F-air, or even better, a neutral air. If they DI away you can either get nothing (except stage positioning and momentum which are great rewards which should not be underestimated) or another F-air.
At high %, they will be hit off the stage (most likely diagonal to the corner, rarely do people terribly downwards) and go into an edgeguard situation, one of G&W's fortes.

All in all F-air is one of your best aerials but I want to stress that just F-air is not enough, the threat of you F-airing is more potent as it allows you to utilize other options you could not just do in neutral. F-airing smartly is important in the neutral game against any character, and I really like weaving back with it. As soon as you want to go for the F-air, start holding back, no more forward, since you want to maintain the perfect F-air distance between you and your target.

That concludes my thoughts on F-air, I'm planning to just run past subjects like concepts, moves, situations, etc. like this, I hope people like this.
Also, don't think ANYTHING I say for granted as if this were a guide, this is just me putting thoughts to paper.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Cool, I look forward to this. Here's something I wanted to talk about:

Edge canceling from the ledge. As in, DJ from ledge -> fade forward + aerial -> fade backwards +edge cancel -> regrab.
I'd like to know when you think this could be more preferred than just aerial regrabbing ledge.

I'm going to try out using this with N-air and wavelanding on stage after the edgecancel to mix up my getting-back-on-stage game. I've been told that I either f-air back on stage or waveland and it is getting predictable..

Yup, getting back from the stage is a very important part of G&W as well, however, it is not as horrible as it might seem. Since G&W doesn't move in fluid frames, his normal standup is actually a decent option as well, you can jab out rather quickly and cover yourself. If you look at the frame data, there's 4 frames of vulnerability before you can act. Jab comes out in another 4 frames, so you have 8 frames of vulnerability, that's an acceptable margin if you use it as a mixup.
One thing I used to do as a Fox is double jump off the ledge and just waveland back onto it. A lot of people expect you to double jump D-air to cover yourself coming down and wait for it and try to punish that. When you waveland back to the ledge, you get them to miss their punish (or at least you don't get punished if they do nothing) and you fluster them a bit, they have to think faster, allowing you to come back easier with either a waveland or a F-air. Another interesting option is dropping down and double jumping to the point where you walk onto the stage at the apex of your jump and you can instantly jab, jump, do whatever.

When people say your waveland is getting predictable, try to figure out how they punish it and adjust accordingly. Do they wait back and you wavedash into their arms? Don't wavedash forward, just wavedash onto the very edge.
Some few things to NOT do at the edge is to shield when you get up (shielding as G&W in general is very ill-advised, especially vs spacies), and roll up from the edge (G&W has one of the WORST rolls in the game)

 

[Jim Morrison]

Edgeguarding Falcon
​

Edgeguarding Falcon is one of the most important things to know in the matchup vs Falcon (besides finding an in between his bair spam). If you don't kill him off an edgeguard, you will have to kill him at something like 130% which sucks a lot. An edgeguard is succesful as long as it hasn't ended yet. If you keep Nairing him up high and he has to recover the same way, he's racking % and you're doing fine. Kills are the primary goal though.

To edgeguard Falcon you first need to know how Falcon recovers. First option is sending him very horizontally and he has to recover relatively low. If he is sent far enough that he HAS to grab the edge, it's basically a guaranteed kill. Just down-tilt by the edge sends him off far enough that he has to do the same thing again, or just dies, this is intuitive.
The other possibility is him being at mid height (top of his up B is around the height of a platform) and he can either land closely behind you or weave back for the edge. One thing people would like to do is just short hop N-air, but if he lands behind you, you just send him back to the stage and nothing gets done. What you can do is wait even longer for him to just drop either in front or behind of you, you can read his weaving in the air, and if he LOOKS like he is about to go for the edge, down-tilt immediately. If he just keeps going behind you, just wait and punish his landing lag with a combo (with the main goal of getting him off-stage again, grab works well).

The other option is him getting knocked far away into the high corner. He can opt to falcon kick and regain his jump, but this will force him in a low up B, which isn't very favorable, and you can jump out to F-air intercept (guaranteeing his death). The most difficult recovery by Falcon seems the be the very high recovery where he can either wave back to the edge from way up or keep going allll the way and land up on a platform/fall through it/center stage. There is no single effective way to edgeguard this, but I'd just like to touch on one specific thing I like to do.
Falcons have to pick a direction at some point, after which weaving is ineffective. When you see Falcon up B high, you can bet your ass he will go to the best (last) spot where he can choose to weave back or keep falling to stage. What you can do is double jump N-air to meet him there. Weaving back, he gets hit by the front and gets sent back off-stage. Hitting with the back sends him the other way, often far enough to edgeguard again, because Falcon usually has high % when he is sent to the high corner.

This is basically the area you want to cover with your N-air. Falcon can adjust his height and horizontal position to make it trickier, but you just want your N-air to be under him to cover both diagonal directions he can take. This is a safe option. I'm not sure how well you can follow up after that, if you miss and Falcon lands on stage, I think he'll have recovered from the lag by then, so don't try to punish that after the N-air as well.

Some Falcons who have a bit of practice like to go low vs G&W on techable stages like Yoshi's. They save their double jump and come from below him, knowing the G&W will be down-tilt and teching the down-tilt. If they tech your Down-tilt, they can immediately up B again and grab you. If you see this habit arising, you can opt to drop down to them with a N-air, this will beat almost everything he has. You risk him teching the Neutral air, so be careful, since you'll be in the edgeguarding position all of a sudden.

Of course, everything here is only very general and I'm sure Falcons recover well enough that you can't always get the edgeguard, I just want to throw some ideas out there and would like to hear some as well.

 

[Crezyte]

Edgeguarding falcon is so fun. I find that on stages such as yoshi's and FoD, just punishing their landing lag on up-b via f-smash or throw+followup is better than risking a tech. So grab that ledge and hold it! :D You could also go for the edge cancelled key into move of your choice (usually f-air). Even if he techs, he can still get hit by whatever you so choose.

I agree with n-airing him if he goes really high above you to cover his diagonals. There are some percents where I know Falcon can't go high enough that I'd u-tilt n-air for the extra damage knowing that he is going to end up DIing higher up to get a further recovery but guaranteeing some damage.

Bacon is also really good to just throw out because it stops all his momentum if he gets hit, so unless Falcon is able to up-b way above you, you will have a hayday of options and a lot of fun edge guarding the crap outta him.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Positioning & Movement
​

These are the most general topics in all of Melee, it all evolves around this once you get to a mediocre level of play. Getting a good understanding of what positioning means can greatly improve your game in an aspect that isn't just tech skill, better edgeguarding, combos, etc. For positioning you also need to be able to utilize movement. There's a reason that there are very few characters high on the tier list that have slow movement options, while Fox is first.

Movement is the ability to move your character around quickly and doing only the necessary things. There's really no talking about how to practice movement as G&W, it's just dash-dance and wavedash, that's enough to get around. Make sure you're comfortable with moving around all stages, that's definitely the most important aspect to mastering any character. Coming from Fox, I know there are so many Foxes who can shine 10 times, break shields with pressure, etc. but they are unable to just move around the stage with empty jump wavelands onto the ground and platforms. They don't know what platforms they can use to cover a certain airspace with a B-air without getting landing. Movement is what I consider being able to get around and keep/gain control of the stage. It's also important to remember that not doing anything at all is a movement option.

Positioning is the part that actually gets you rewards in gameplay, and it depends on your movement. I'll start with one of the best examples I ever saw:

Now there's a few examples:
It start at 0:33, here TAI feels like Fox will N-air so he makes room. Fox goes in, gets the F-air punish leading to a kill. What's really important here is that TAI knows this player has a certain "trigger range". If he weaves in and out there, a N-air will be what his opponent will most likely be thinking of there. At 1:06 you can clearly see this as he moves out perfectly and gets the grab. 1:40 as well, he got hit by the D-air because TAI got in the position to trigger certain moves from his opponent.

Another example of actual positioning on the larger stage:

At 11:52, you see Jsex moving up to the platform trying to get a good angle on G&W (a straight forward approach probably would have been ****). QERB constantly stayed on the ground and in the middle though, because he knows (conscious or subconscious, doesn't matter) that that's the best spot to stay in. Moving up to the platform is a bad option, G&W is a slow jumper so making it up there, Jsex is already gone. Jsex doesn't wanna go down so he keeps shooting needles, and they're at a stand-still. Eventually, he lets up and eats F-air to the face.
The same happens at 12:43. This time QERB tries to poke the platform with a N-air, but in doing so he jumps all the way to the edge. This puts him away from the center with Sheik's back facing him. This is a terrible spot for almost any character, she can wall you out for a lot of %.

The most important thing about positioning is that you can recognize patterns in your opponents play in response to what you're doing (where you are). You can then abuse these patterns and gain advantages from neutral.

I feel like I haven't said everything about this that I wanted to, but it's getting late, I'll expand later.

 

[Mr. S]

It's kinda hard to generalize movement and positioning since good positioning and, to maybe a lesser extent, movement are so dependent on stage and character matchup. Since just about all of the more popular characters take a dump on GnW, in general, you'll want to focus on defensive, highly methodological play. I find that, because GnW has a pretty good punish game, it can be effective to bait bad approaches on the enemy's part, but at the same that's kind of hard to do because you don't have a decent shield to fall back on should your positioning not be perfect (light shield slides you around, and that's not good if you want to punish anything). Therefore, not only would you have to successfully bait an approach, but you would also have to read the approach itself---namely what the enemy approaches with and where the attack lands (being where they would use a grounded attack or where an aerial would land)---which can be pretty hard to do.

Thankfully, GnW would get some leeway with baiting because his hitboxes are incredible. Every hitbox has a pretty good reach, stays out forever and is disjointed. Because of this, you can safely beat things like Fox's nair with a well-spaced fair. Unfortunately, a lot of GnW's moves can leave him super vulnerable (especially the aerials he can't l-cancel), and that leads to punishes which are especially bad for GnW because he dies early enough that you really need to emphasize not taking damage more than other characters do.

At least in my experience, GnW relies a lot on his hitboxes being disjointed. This makes matchups like Marth a complete pain because he can keep distance with a set of disjointed hitboxes of his own. Marth is especially hard because, if your positioning isn't good, you're going to get trashed by his tippers, which makes approaching very situational and difficult.

The trick to winning with GnW against even a semi-competent player is to have impeccable spacing and to take advantage of every single one of the few options you're going to get.

QERB is great at GnW because of his spacing and option coverage. He, though limited in effectiveness, controls platforms above him via uptilt. He uses fair a lot to discourage approaches and punish the enemy being sloppy. He doesn't approach as much as other characters, which helps him not get punished for throwing out laggy stuff. His punishes are devastating and he doesn't often drop things like edgeguards because GnW simply can't afford to make that kind of mistake.

The trick to positioning is to try to always be in a place where you aren't going to be easily punished, you exert at least some control and you can punish some approaches with disjointed hitboxes. Sadly, with GnW, you really can't afford to make any mistakes.

This makes characters like Falco a real pain to play against because his laser is pretty much a beam of stage control. It's almost surprising how much Falco can trash a good deal of characters primarily with his lasers. With SHL, Falco is also very mobile while spamming this beam of stage control, which is a huge pain because this enables him to punish you for not dealing with his lasers correctly. Thankfully, GnW has a low crouch, so you can move around by crouching and wavedashing between lasers unless he's really good at shooting low. The safest place to be against characters with that much ability in stage control is on the platforms. GnW can platform camp fairly well. The fair works great on platforms.

GnW wins through perfect positioning (there really is very little room for error against a good deal of the cast) and harsh punishes. It's made harder for him because defensive tools that generally have at least some use in most characters---such as shields and rolling (though WD OoS is almost always better)---is absolutely garbage. He also doesn't have very good OoS options other than wavedashing. Light shields are good if you can't avoid being hit or as a means of instant repositioning.

Thankfully, movement is pretty easy with GnW (seeing as it's almost exclusively wavedashing, wavelanding and dashdancing), so it's easy to learn to emphasize the positioning over the movement.

I know this is a little oversimplified, and there are exceptions to every rule, but these are just my two cents.

I love smash theory.

 

[Sebson (IKEA)]

I have been playing G&W for about half a year now and I have learned so much yet so little about him. Love this thread and theorycrafting all together. I do however have one problem which I can't seem to get my head around and not many people talk about in at the forum (I have found). Why is it that G&W autotechs platforms sometimes when he is thrown at them from underneath? For example by a fox on the neutral PS stage. Is it just in PAL or does it happen in NTCS aswell? If it is not limited to PAL then I wonder: How can we exploit it? Do we know when it happends? I have also realised that this happneds on YS when Marth u-throws on a certain part of the slope. What do you NTCS players know about his autotech?
I think if this isn't limited to PAL and we can find out a way to exploit it that we might have ourself a very big advantage.

After watching Qerb Vs Zero closely I see that it actually isn't a thing with the autoteching. Then I bring this question to your attention instead. What changed? What did they change in PAL to make the autotech a thing? Can the autotech be used somehow in NTCS?

 

[Sebson (IKEA)]

I have a friend who will help me record it so I can show you what happends. It will be done during this weekend.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Thanks for your contributions!

Mr. S, When you're talking about taking the defensive approach and baiting them in... That's one style of playing, but I really am not feeling that style of play. If you take that route, you're basically ignoring the fact that your opponent is as competent as you are. If you wait for him and be defensive, you give them too much space and time to work with. They'll be baiting you just as hard, and even though you might not get fully hit for it, it's so incredibly easy to get forced into shield by an opponent, when you can't outspace the move.
An example is Falcon, there is no way you are gonna outspace him. If you let him dashdance and you wait for him to come in, I can 100% guarantee you, you'll get hit or be stuck in shield. He covers so much ground there's no escaping him. This works at sort of lower %, since you can crouch cancel his hits, but eh. I much prefer being aggresive myself, but not just going in. I like hovering around them and getting myself into them.

The defensive style is quite a lot better vs Sheik. Sheik hasn't got the longest range nor great air speed. You can also crouch cancel a lot of her stuff, which is without a doubt the best defensive option when you get hit. You can D-tilt after her moves.

I also want to link this thread, it provides a lot of insight to some mid level stuff, pressuring near the ledge and shielding.
http://www.reddit.com/r/SSBM/comments/2mqozt/mind_over_meta_1_staggeredhit_game/

 

[Jim Morrison]

Time for some more lab work:

Up B out of shield:
​

Game and Watch's Up B is a pretty good move. Very good actually, as it comes out on frame 1. When you do it out of shield, it's frame 2. One frame to start jump animation, second frame for the up B. Now this can be used quite well for escaping pressure (think of spacies shine OoS). It's just a bit of a risky move because people can easily punish your landing lag and you're in a bad spot. However I still think this should be explored.

I did some testing on battlefield, because let's be real, you shouldn't up B out of shield when there's no platform above you (top is best). The first percents you see is the percentage at which they get knocked down. Before that, they are just in a normal stun animation and can jump and punish you pretty quickly. The second percent is when they can jump out of the stun. The percents inbetween are percents where they HAVE to tech/fall down.

The percents:
Fox: 30% - 100% with out without DI up
Falco: 30% - 115% with out without DI up
Captain Falcon: 35/40% - 75% with DI up, 85% with no DI
Sheik: Never gets knocked down, can always reach you - Don't up B OoS until very high %.
Marth: Never gets knocked down, can always reach you - Don't up B OoS until very high %.
Jigglypuff: Never gets knocked down, has a hard time reaching you afterwards.
Peach: Never gets knocked down, has a hard time reaching you afterwards.

What we see here is that up B out of shield is most useful against spacies, and Falcon to a lesser extent. This is also great because these happen to have the toughest shield pressure. Inbetween these %'s, you should look to up B out of shield pretty quickly, it can help a lot. What happens is that they have to tech and you're on the top platform. Now this is actually a ****ty position to be in, but I feel like it could be worth the tradeoff. G&W has a pretty decent tool to come down with the dair. If they miss the tech, even better, just drop down the platform and regain your position (with an advantage of being able to tech chase a bit).

Versus Marth and Sheik, it's definitely not a good idea. Marth most of all, he got the easy juggle as he can jump out and up-air you and start a juggle (he has the roughest juggle on G&W). Sheik is also bad because she can U-air you through the platform, but it's not so bad since you can come down just fine.
Versus Jiggs it's already better since her jumps are not high enough to really reach you fast.
Versus Peach it's even better, because her second jump is bad enough to not reach you. Most Peaches also won't like to use their second jump in that situation for just an up air. I'm not sure on the frame data, but maybe this can be useful after that float canceled F-air on shield (actually just avoid that because it will shieldstab 10000% of the time).

Conclusion: Up B is actually a nice idea vs spacies. I'll try to implement this next time and see how it works.

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

Lets do some grab talk nerds

So G&W has an guaranteed (correct me if Im wrong on that) chain grab on fox/falco up until about 100%.
-uthrow up till about 28 (usually works till around 35, most opponents don't jump out)
-dthrow after uthrow chain grab until 100%
-uthrow after 100% into nair for no DI or slight DI and fair for DI left/right
-off stage almost guaranteed edge guard

issues:
-dthrow cg is super hard between 30-60 especially if they DI behind
-fair may not knock spacey far enough at 100% if they do left/right DI and good DI when hit by the fair
-DTHROW CG IS SUPER HARD @ 30%
-This only really makes sense on final destination

If you are close to the edge at 30ish, you can dthrow -- fsmash if they DI off stage. After around 60, I think throwing towards the ledge when you grab at the ledge is optimal and allows you to setup an almost if not guaranteed edge guard regardless of DI.

discuss.

 

[Crezyte]

I think it is pretty easy to tech chase out of d-throw at 30% just to get the 10% to where it is much easier to do the d-throw CG. Since d-throw sends fox slightly into GnW with no DI, you should easily be abl~15%e to position yourself for a tech chase and all of his tech options are reactable to with either WD or shieldgrab. Make sure you pummel to get that % faster.

 

[RetroGamersGuru]

I actually did not know this was a separate thread. I'll keep an eye on this to hopefully contribute.

 

[Pud'N]

U tilt is really interesting. lasts 20 frames with a jank hitbox and ends on frame 29, and then the animation is over
I really enjoy theory crafting, but im not the best with frame data, so someone who is better at that could contribute here
In the neutral, baits are very good but very risky
the thing is if they recognize a bait as a bait, or just u mess up or they just dont react, you eat a heavy punish or ATLEAST are in a bad position
However game and watches up tilt as a bait could potentially be very useful in certain matchups. Imagine a situation like this, you are in the middle-ish of bfield, and sheik is on one of the side platforms camping
she sees you uptilt and, due to the slow looking nature of the move, tries to punish
move ends and there is no lagtime, free to assess the situation and react accordingly
Safe option would be cover with jab or fade away fair, aggressive option would be something like dtilt or grab.
try this in friendlies and see how it works out, even if its not like amazing because it isnt, game and watch is the kind of character where one opening can equal a stock pretty easily. 1 or 2 stocks in a set from a bait like this can be a life saver, try it out.
other g&w guys lemme know how you feel about this and whether it seems like a legit option. also more theory crafting on optimal situations for it sounds great

 

[Jim Morrison]

I agree that U-tilt is a really interesting move and just like literally every single thing about G&W, it's not well explored. I feel like this move just provides no utility in a neutral situation with no pressure, not even as the bait you just described, since the hitbox is pretty bad. I mean, just look

Look, if you do it like this and someone is in front of you, there is a large part of your hitbox extending forward, free to hit. Behind you is bad, since you have ****ty options behind you, like, jab doesn't hit there, best you can do is wavedash away and that just gives them some space.

On the other hand, the move feels pretty good at certain situations, like the obvious one of them coming down. It's a very good disjoined move, but you have to be careful since it first covers the front and then the back of G&W. Lets say you're trying to cover a Falco or a Marth coming down, they have very good horizontal hitboxes, with Marth's F-air and Falco's B-air. I feel like you cannot contest those moves with U-tilt, as there's not enough horizontal range. If you manage to get -below- them, U-tilt can be a pretty devastating move on fast-fallers. You won't often get people above you below 50%, and above that U-tilt sends Marth/Sheik up too high to convert, other than another chase in the air.

Another option I haven't tried but am just thinking about might be tech chasing. I'm not sure if the U-tilt actually hits low enough to hit someone who misses a tech. If that's the case, I feel like U-tilt might be out long enough to cover a missed tech as well as tech in place, and it has actually so little lag on the hitbox that you can follow them with a wavedash > jab if they roll away. I'll try this out next time, since it sounds pretty cool.


Something else I've been thinking about, is tech chasing after the down-throw. I know you can chaingrab spacies, but I'm pretty bad and drop it a lot. I do notice a lot of people hit the tech after the down-throw, so I can't just assume they miss and jab reset. When they do tech, they actually rarely tech in place. I'm wondering what are some good options for Game & Watch to cover a tech chase where it might be equally likely of them rolling behind you as them rolling in front of you. Just a standard wavedash > jab and wavedashing back if they roll behind you could work.



EDIT:
So, I've checked it out, and it seems like a pretty decent coverage with the U-tilt. You cover both missed tech and tech in place (you have to time it so that you start when he hits the ground and bounces up on a missed tech and he techs behind you so the later hitbox of the U-tilt still hits. It covers 2 of 4 options which is pretty nice, but it leaves the 2 best options, rolling away and inwards open, and hard to cover afterwards. I can't try it out on my own, but I don't think you can chase correctly with a fair or a wavedash jab.

Other thing I notice, G&W has a much, much shorter foxtrot than other characters, meaning the startup of the dash. You can do moves out of it very quickly, like F-smash, crouching, jab etc. It feels like it is just easier to pivot with G&W, if you even pivot. I think you can get a lot o fmileage of using it, since you can make a very short dashes into moves.
First thing I could think of was dashdancing near the edge for example while spacing are recovering. If you see them up B, jump out and F-air. If you see them side-B you can dash to the edge and down-tilt, very, very quickly.

 

[flieskiller]

Behind you is bad, since you have ****ty options behind you, like, jab doesn't hit there, best you can do is wavedash away and that just gives them some space.

After the utilt (or anytime you're in the stand animation), if you tap on the opposite direction, after 1 frame you can jab in the opposite direction. This is the thing that I see mostly Samus do (wavedash pivot jab from them)

Another option I haven't tried but am just thinking about might be tech chasing. I'm not sure if the U-tilt actually hits low enough to hit someone who misses a tech. If that's the case, I feel like U-tilt might be out long enough to cover a missed tech as well as tech in place, and it has actually so little lag on the hitbox that you can follow them with a wavedash > jab if they roll away. I'll try this out next time, since it sounds pretty cool.

The hitbox on the shoulder is superb. It should cover the ground options.

Something else I've been thinking about, is tech chasing after the down-throw. I know you can chaingrab spacies, but I'm pretty bad and drop it a lot. I do notice a lot of people hit the tech after the down-throw, so I can't just assume they miss and jab reset. When they do tech, they actually rarely tech in place. I'm wondering what are some good options for Game & Watch to cover a tech chase where it might be equally likely of them rolling behind you as them rolling in front of you. Just a standard wavedash > jab and wavedashing back if they roll behind you could work.

2 Things I'd like you to try is 2nd hit of uair and dash attack.

uair 2nd hit: It has enough hitlag on the opponent that you can land and make a second uair or a fair. It may be difficult to land though.

Dash Attack:the hitbox stays for a very long time and can maybe catch the off guard. It can even cover (I think) tech roll and simple roll. If you hit them at the latest of the animation and they're at high percent, I think you can followup with an aerial (not nair though, too slow)

EDIT:
So, I've checked it out, and it seems like a pretty decent coverage with the U-tilt. You cover both missed tech and tech in place (you have to time it so that you start when he hits the ground and bounces up on a missed tech and he techs behind you so the later hitbox of the U-tilt still hits. It covers 2 of 4 options which is pretty nice, but it leaves the 2 best options, rolling away and inwards open, and hard to cover afterwards. I can't try it out on my own, but I don't think you can chase correctly with a fair or a wavedash jab.

Ya, shoulder hitbox pretty good.

Other thing I notice, G&W has a much, much shorter foxtrot than other characters, meaning the startup of the dash. You can do moves out of it very quickly, like F-smash, crouching, jab etc. It feels like it is just easier to pivot with G&W, if you even pivot. I think you can get a lot o fmileage of using it, since you can make a very short dashes into moves.

I didn't think of using foxtrot like that, I'll experiment onto it.

 

[Temkin]

Just a question. I'm sure someone might have already covered this somewhere.

But has anyone looked into g&w weird tech when he is GETTING grabbed? Like samus's and some other characters dthrow g&w will always just hit the ground and tech the hit with no pop up. And also notice that if they throw you and a platform is above you, you'll just land on the platform without any pop up. Idk if anyone has come across this and know why or when it happens?

 

[debugkatamari]

Would anyone here be interested in playing some online matches? I own the Wii U version of the game, would really love to work on my G&W as I have only practiced with friends who don't play the character what-so-ever.
Nintendo ID is DebugKatamari.
Anyone?? :D

 

[Temkin]

Brah this is melee board for g&w. Try the smash 4 boards. Probably better luck there.

 

[felipe_9595]

Maining Melee G&W, moving to P:M, then moving back taught me a lot of stuff:

-Learn to Ledge Cancel aerials and His UpB, it makes G&W so much better
-Learn to perfect waveland. SH>Perfect Waveland is a really good offensive and defensive option

Mastering these 2 things makes G&W incredible better. I have been practicing these things in P:M a lot and it really helped my Melee game. This is how i am playing him now


http://www.twitch.tv/usmash/b/653356318?t=3h21m59s

 

[flieskiller]

Maining Melee G&W, moving to P:M, then moving back taught me a lot of stuff:

-Learn to Ledge Cancel aerials and His UpB, it makes G&W so much better

I've talked about this in my post: http://smashboards.com/threads/g-w-techs-mechanics-discoveries.394672/

 

[Pud'N]

Ive been playing old GW a bit more after some chilltime with fast fallers, and im beginning to really enjoy gw's ground game. Ive been exploring the usage of not leaving the ground in neutral, at all (mostly vs falco, falcon, and luigi) and sticking to dtilt, uptilt, jab, and grab for the majority of my move usage. My philosophy behind this is that if I get any hit, I can start a huge combo(sans floaties) it does not have to be something like fair or dair, which as aerials require you to jump, which can be unsafe, and are laggier than something like grab dtilt or jab. Now GW aerials have the benefit of being huge and disjointed, especially fair. However GW dtilt especially is also extremely disjointed ad quick, and absolutely his best combo starter.

Of course, if an enemy comes above you to avoid your ground game (seems like an obvious counter, you wont leave the ground? only other optio is beat GW on the ground, which isnt that hard... but if you see that is the route they are going to take it becomes much easier to prevent it) if an enemy is above you, you have large upward disjoints in utilt and nair, though they are somewhat slow, so are most characters DOWNWARD options (and usually not as big) in the case of someone like falco who is very hard to challenge from below (you can beat dair with utilt and its easier than with some higher tiers) it may be harder to fight them from below. falco also has lasers. man i hate that matchup (in the neutral atleast...way fun when you get a hit lol)

Anyway, maybe ignore this and say its weird and dumb. probably right maybe. but something i have noticed from experimenting with a strict ground policy is how much easier it is to focus when i have a gameplan like that. if I say to myself "stay on the ground, no leaving the ground unless i pop them up or they try to fight above me" it makes it a whole lot easier to play the neutral as opposed to the strategy of kinda winging it, switching back and forth between fair walls, fair approaches, turtling it out etc. While mixups are great, I would argue GW is the kind of character that carries this sort of touch of death with him, meaning that his punishes are extemely destructive, but also he is so easy to kill and combo that messing up can get you equally destroyed. This means you want to get the hit without geting hit, and it doesnt really matter too much what hit you get. Its easier to get that hit you need when there are less ways of getting it on your mind... just some thinking

 

[Plunder]

3 massive things that I use that I think are not explored by the more visible G&W mains -

1. Sideways Up-B
When you are recovering and you don't need all the vertical distance of the Up-B you really should mix up with a 35 degree Up-B onto stage or to the ledge. This can be hard to predict because of the speed and the fact that they expect to easily cover the standard straight Up Up-B. You can often go right through them for a cross up, landing behind them with only 6 frames of lag. The side Up-B also lessens the vertical air time so it's less time they have to react and more time to confirm the hit of the Up-B. Or you can sweet spot the sideways Up-B so your recovery doesn't become so predictable. I've been messing with it OoS as well the altered trajectory can ensure a hit where a normal straight up Up-B might not.

2. Weak hit Fair into combos
Pretty self explanatory, but I don't see anyone actually do anything with it. When you hit with weak hit Fair, at higher percentages it still has enough hitstun to set up for a follow up grab, or Dtilt. Also fade away weak hit Fairs can start combos if it hits close enough to the ground.


EDIT:

3. Up-Smash! - GnW's up smash has some bizarre properties in practical use. I find that a charged up smash tends to work way more than it should as both baiting them into trying to challenge from the front or when they are above trying to come down with a dair or other attack. His head is invincible for a few frames and I guess it is rather large portion of his hurtbox (so his hurtbox becomes rather tiny in comparison), so that much be the reason why it seems to beat a LOT of stuff. People always seem surprised at getting hit by it, and they keep getting hit trying to challenge it when I occasionally use it. There are probably ways around it but as a mix up and bait is works better than it should.

 

[Pud'N]

Just some little neat tricks for GW:

Ledge cancelled bairs vs super floaties: Ive won sets off of samus players from just chaining together hella bairs on like PS out of ledge cancels. Its super good

First hit Uair: If you can ledge cancel your first hit upair, the popup is super good and like perfect for kill setups in awkward scenarios. Combos into hammer at a lot of percents

Bair Dair: Pretty well known, bair can combo into dair at like any percent, if youre still in the air (like a fullhop or something) you can also mix it up with bair and dip down into a nair for something more horizontal

Weak hit Dtilt setups: The edge of Dtilt (and I think later in the animation only? someone confirm) sends at this super harsh angle, like link upb semispike but a little weaker. very strong gimp tool and combo ender vs characters like doc/falco with short recoveries. Setups from DI away and edgueards

Vududash with Bacon: The luigi fireball wavelands thing that makes him carry his momentum is actually a mechanic present in a few characters, such as sheik and GW. I usually do his out of a dash, easier for me and seems similar to wavedash, but you can pick up some quick edguards with this because you actually go out with the spike pretty far, and the bacon can cover some other options vs certain characters.

Hammer 5 regrab: its like a 1 in 7 chance, but if you go for the hammer and get a 5 and hit them, you can usually get a free regrab off of it.

 

[Plunder]

Just some little neat tricks for GW:


First hit Uair: If you can ledge cancel your first hit upair, the popup is super good and like perfect for kill setups in awkward scenarios. Combos into hammer at a lot of percents

Bair Dair: Pretty well known, bair can combo into dair at like any percent, if youre still in the air (like a fullhop or something) you can also mix it up with bair and dip down into a nair for something more horizontal

Weak hit Dtilt setups: The edge of Dtilt (and I think later in the animation only? someone confirm) sends at this super harsh angle, like link upb semispike but a little weaker. very strong gimp tool and combo ender vs characters like doc/falco with short recoveries. Setups from DI away and edgueards

Vududash with Bacon: The luigi fireball wavelands thing that makes him carry his momentum is actually a mechanic present in a few characters, such as sheik and GW. I usually do his out of a dash, easier for me and seems similar to wavedash, but you can pick up some quick edguards with this because you actually go out with the spike pretty far, and the bacon can cover some other options vs certain characters.

Hammer 5 regrab: its like a 1 in 7 chance, but if you go for the hammer and get a 5 and hit them, you can usually get a free regrab off of it.

A lot of these don't seem to make any sense on actual human opponents....

1) First hit U air even with ledge cancel doesn't afford enough hitstun for the things you mention at most percents, you'd have to get the second hit into ledge cancel or just normal lag on only FFers to get it to combo into slow moves. First hit U air you would only have time to Fair or Bair after the edge cancel (or they miss a tech as they land), only a higher percents does it have enough pop up and still even then it's situational on certain falling speeds and weights (hard to aim too while edge cancelling as well). Bair actually has some much more reliable set ups and pops them up at a near fixed knockback from 0-100% since it has low scaling high initial KB upwards. Easier to aim and ledge cancel as well.

2) The Dtilt only hits away when the opponent is in the air as the Dtilt hitbox hits them.

3) Vududash with Sausage? I don't think this is actually possible or useful...you can dash SH Sausage and forwards of backwards the momentum is transferred downwards...it doesn't spike though it just has a flat angle. I don't even understand what you are trying to say with dash being like wavedash and it going out pretty far (the pan is small, it's only active for 3-4 frames and has a ton of start up....just Nair instead if it's gonna take that long)

4) Hammer 5 re-grabs will never work against good player since they can have time to nair/attack or SDI/DI out and punish your lag. Not only that it's a 1/9 chance not a 1/7....it's only 1/7 when you first start a match.

 

[Pud'N]

A lot of these don't seem to make any sense on actual human opponents....

1) First hit U air even with ledge cancel doesn't afford enough hitstun for the things you mention at most percents, you'd have to get the second hit into ledge cancel or just normal lag on only FFers to get it to combo into slow moves. First hit U air you would only have time to Fair or Bair after the edge cancel (or they miss a tech as they land), only a higher percents does it have enough pop up and still even then it's situational on certain falling speeds and weights (hard to aim too while edge cancelling as well). Bair actually has some much more reliable set ups and pops them up at a near fixed knockback from 0-100% since it has low scaling high initial KB upwards. Easier to aim and ledge cancel as well.

2) The Dtilt only hits away when the opponent is in the air as the Dtilt hitbox hits them.

3) Vududash with Sausage? I don't think this is actually possible or useful...you can dash SH Sausage and forwards of backwards the momentum is transferred downwards...it doesn't spike though it just has a flat angle. I don't even understand what you are trying to say with dash being like wavedash and it going out pretty far (the pan is small, it's only active for 3-4 frames and has a ton of start up....just Nair instead if it's gonna take that long)

4) Hammer 5 re-grabs will never work against good player since they can have time to nair/attack or SDI/DI out and punish your lag. Not only that it's a 1/9 chance not a 1/7....it's only 1/7 when you first start a match.

1: I dont know how much hitstun it actually has, but first hit setups have been working for me vs fastfaller. Mostly into fsmash at high percents, uptilt/regrab at midpercents.

2:Yeah?

3: Its not as far as Luigis, neither is sheiks. Its more of a little trick with some swag, not necessarily the best option all the time

4: The chances are always 1/7 because You can not get the same number as you can not have any hammer throw that has appeared in the last 2 throws, and the first hammer of the match cannot be 1 or 2 (second hammer also cannot be 2) this also refreshes each stock.




Edit: Just tested the combo potential of first hit upair after upthrow and other scenarios vs fox at several percents. First hit u air combos into utilt at kill setups percents after around 70. FH upair combos into fsmash around 100+ Combos into regrab after like 45 percent. Of course DI dependant like anything, but in terms of hitstun it is fully possible

 

[Plunder]

1: I dont know how much hitstun it actually has, but first hit setups have been working for me vs fastfaller. Mostly into fsmash at high percents, uptilt/regrab at midpercents.

2:Yeah?

3: Its not as far as Luigis, neither is sheiks. Its more of a little trick with some swag, not necessarily the best option all the time

4: The chances are always 1/7 because You can not get the same number as you can not have any hammer throw that has appeared in the last 2 throws, and the first hammer of the match cannot be 1 or 2 (second hammer also cannot be 2) this also refreshes each stock.




Edit: Just tested the combo potential of first hit upair after upthrow and other scenarios vs fox at several percents. First hit u air combos into utilt at kill setups percents after around 70. FH upair combos into fsmash around 100+ Combos into regrab after like 45 percent. Of course DI dependant like anything, but in terms of hitstun it is fully possible

1) I'd like to see this in actual use. You were talking about ledge cancels into combos...how you ledge cancel a Uair first hit and have time to land again then F smash or Utilt?

3) It's not a Vududash it's just him falling off the platform while NS'ing. Any character with a projectile can do this the fireball and especially Luigi's traction give him a special dash off edges. If you try with Luigi's Vududash timing G&W will just stop on the edge and sausage.

" The chances are always 1/7 "

4) No this isn't true, so explain the 0% (0/0 chance) for 2 turns if you get a 5 and miss? It's not 1/7 for any number at any given time.....1/7 is not the standard chance it's only the initial special chance only for the first hammer try, since you know you can get a 1 after the first hammer and a 2 anytime after the second only at the start of a stock (even then is biased/relative probability only because no one wants a 1 or 2). Like I explained anyways it's very easy to DI /SDI out of a 5 and it really doesn't have enough hitstun or KB to set up for re-grab if they somehow don't get out of it. Jiggs can SDI/DI in and rest you....almost any other character can do the same but grab/nair/punish you. At that point you might as well hope for a 9 or 6 instead.

 

[Pud'N]

1) I'd like to see this in actual use. You were talking about ledge cancels into combos...how you ledge cancel a Uair first hit and have time to land again then F smash or Utilt?

3) It's not a Vududash it's just him falling off the platform while NS'ing. Any character with a projectile can do this the fireball and especially Luigi's traction give him a special dash off edges. If you try with Luigi's Vududash timing G&W will just stop on the edge and sausage.

" The chances are always 1/7 "

4) No this isn't true, so explain the 0% (0/0 chance) for 2 turns if you get a 5 and miss? It's not 1/7 for any number at any given time.....1/7 is not the standard chance it's only the initial special chance only for the first hammer try, since you know you can get a 1 after the first hammer and a 2 anytime after the second only at the start of a stock (even then is biased/relative probability only because no one wants a 1 or 2). Like I explained anyways it's very easy to DI /SDI out of a 5 and it really doesn't have enough hitstun or KB to set up for re-grab if they somehow don't get out of it. Jiggs can SDI/DI in and rest you....almost any other character can do the same but grab/nair/punish you. At that point you might as well hope for a 9 or 6 instead.

1:edge cancels work into aerials, you can get off ground moves by landing on the ground/ledgecancelling and wavelanding on the platform

3: Ok Ill take that, might just be my mistake and miseyeing it.

4: Assuming you have not gotten X number in the last 2 hammer throws, then the chances are 1/7 of you getting that number sans the first and second turn where special circumstances apply (since you havent had 2 hammer throws yet)
If you have gotten X number in this last 2 throws, then obviously the chance of you getting it is 0%, thats how it works. But the chance of you getting any number is only ever 0/0 or 1/7, it cannot be 1/9 or anything else, sicne that would imply you could get the same number twice in a row or break the number rule.

And about the #5 regrab, hammer is pretty suboptimal anyway, but 5 grab is approximately the same as Fox drill grab (more lag on 5, but electricity is in 5, and elec/fire amplifies hitstun by 1.5, so its close in terms of how long you have to "do something")

It is absolutely possible to sdi out of any atack really, but since it is much more likely that you are trying to get a 9 when you press side b (since thats always what you WANT) thats most likely what they think to. GW 5 is probably the hardest multihit to SDI just because theyre not going to be expecting and would have to react to SDIing it right away, which is unlikely.

Still, it is possible, but also hammer is suboptimal anyway. Since youre always fishing for a 9 when you hammer, there should be some kind of theoretical followups in place for if you DONT get 9 and they dont hard punish you for it.

 

[Plunder]

Wanted to add 2 more things:

1. Recovering with air dodge toward ledge when able - Since G&W has an incredible magnet radius and is pretty floaty he can often grab ledge even when you air dodge only a bit above the ledge when recovering. This leaves only a very small vulnerable window to be hit and it usually tricks the ledge guarder. A traditional air dodge onto stage is also something I don't see used enough, since most G&W users think Up-B is so safe, trust me at high levels of play it's not (people who know it can be Marth Killer'ed and Ramen Noodled / forced 40-frame land lag ranges or invincible ledge attacked)

2. Bucket stalling - Extremely useful for air pressure when you are trying to come down and also on recovery to throw off their edge guarding and timing.

 

[LLDL]

Yeah I did some crazy **** to ion's sheik as G&w

 

[ChivalRuse]

Bair auto cancels at various full jump and double jump heights, fast fallen sometimes even. I feel like bair is the biggest part of Game and Watch's metagame that needs to be developed, as it's such a great disjointed hitbox that leads to follow ups and has low recovery.

 

[the muted smasher]

If they di away bair is meh, the big thing about is when every other is rising or falling, approaching or retreating. Just to mess with di options. And I like to look for wavelands after should they try to jump out or di away

 

[the muted smasher]

Sorry for the double post, but there's some real good knowledge and lately I've been thinking watch,s hardest aspect is how different Your shield pressure and space options change based on the match-up.

Like ics vs watch correctly spacing for a shield/cc or being really easy but if they react to You shing they can literally slide through Your fair at 0% because they have so much forward momentum they can f smash through and run You off the stage

You can space a fair on marth,s shield but only if You pull back before You land because when You land You slide the same direction You were going in the air.

Idk there are a lot of of important spacing tricks watch has like grab not sticking out hit boxes till the grab is out or insane shield Di skills

 

[Gay Sasquatch]

Because of gnw's dash attack sending them flying behind you, sometimes people assume they'll fly away like most other dash attacks, and they end up actually DI'ing back towards you instead. When this happens, I feel like I get a reverse fsmash way more than I should. His dash attack is really interesting this way so I almost always just use dash attack as like another faster ftilt with more combo potential than his regular ftilt (which is actually a pretty good edgeguard, too). Hell, sometimes I feel like it can even combo into itself or a grab at higher percents. Also, if you hit them with the center/back of your body in a dash attack, they go forward instead, making a follow up much easier. So his dash attack has two different knockback angles depending where you hit them with it? idk I could be all wrong about this because my experience with gnw is very limited but his dash attack specifically is such a weird move and I think it has a lot of potential.

I realize now that this is probably just due to DI but nevertheless I still think it's a very underrated move xD

 

[Jim Morrison]

Bair auto cancels at various full jump and double jump heights, fast fallen sometimes even. I feel like bair is the biggest part of Game and Watch's metagame that needs to be developed, as it's such a great disjointed hitbox that leads to follow ups and has low recovery.

I agree with this. I feel like especially full hop Bair could be great vs spacies (I dont think its worth much vs floaties). I'm thinking of possibilities to set it up in a grab (since thats how I win)

 

[ChivalRuse]

I think it's mainly useful for zoning and damage.