Game and Watch's Tourney Potential

[StickandFluid]

Now I am not a seasoned GnW player, but I wanted to start a discussion on the topic of a GnW getting really far in a tourney, by which I mean ranking really well (possibly even winning?) I mean Taj got 3rd with Mewtwo at Genesis 2 and Mewtwo was laughed at before then. Does GnW really just have to many flaws, or is it the player that would matter the most. I have felt for a while that GnW is vastly underrated as a whole, on terms of what he can do against high tier characters. I know there are some amazing GnW players here on Smashboards and I would especially like to know your opinion on this! Thanks for Reading!

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

I am in like the exact same position as u. However, after reading just a few posts on the g&w boards, many players (even the really good ones) just rant about spacies and sheik destroying their poor g&w and that there was no way for them to counter these characters. I would like to ask these players who kno the game much better than myself to REALLY try to find ways to make g&w work. I believe he has potential, too, but we are just not playing him to his full potential.

Basically, I think we need to improve the optimism that this 2-d stick can destroy high tier characters and find ways to ACTUALLY do it. Find their weaknesses. Play a better g&w game. I know that, one day, g&w will be feared, but we gotta step up the motif and Make it Happen.
These B****es!!!

BTW, I could destroy my brothers sheik with g&w on fd. Hes not THAT good, but its a start

 

[The Phenom]

GET FIGURING THEN!!!...ssshh!
---------
CLASS OF 2009!!!™

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

I probably should, pbly look like an idiot preaching this when I don't know much **** about the character.

But, I just needed to let that out. Soon enough, we'll have tons of g&w mains the pros ( like me [ but pbly not ] )

 

[StickandFluid]

I am in like the exact same position as u. However, after reading just a few posts on the g&w boards, many players (even the really good ones) just rant about spacies and sheik destroying their poor g&w and that there was no way for them to counter these characters. I would like to ask these players who kno the game much better than myself to REALLY try to find ways to make g&w work. I believe he has potential, too, but we are just not playing him to his full potential.

Basically, I think we need to improve the optimism that this 2-d stick can destroy high tier characters and find ways to ACTUALLY do it. Find their weaknesses. Play a better g&w game. I know that, one day, g&w will be feared, but we gotta step up the motif and Make it Happen.
These B****es!!!

BTW, I could destroy my brothers sheik with g&w on fd. Hes not THAT good, but its a start

I've just started going to tourneys here in LA and they are rough, and playing low tiers is ROUGH! but through getting my ass kicked I am slowly learning that confidence is half the battle, cause once you get in a funk about losing with a character (even though you like that character) it just gets harder and harder playing and doing well as them, I am a strongly against people who use their low tiers as an excuse for them doing bad when you do bad it's you not the character, when you play low tiers there is a lot of johning

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

johning

I was looking for that word, it just flew off my mind when I wrote that I guess...
G&W players, STOP JOHNING!
I might have to stick with just upper tier character and that whole community if all the low tier character players just sit around and b**** about how much their main sux.
How about you sit down and think about how much you could do out of a simple grab on a fox, falco, sheik, or falcon, and tell me he sux. This 2d baller has nearly the combo potential of captain falcon, if you hit good reads and understand him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkjWGcET3D4
Just watch this. Both characters aren't in their prime form, G&W really only gets ***** from really ****ty decision making and relatively poor understanding of the character (how he moves, hitboxes, not using the jabs) still a very good G&W tho, but you can't honestly tell me we can't do better than this.

 

[QERB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkjWGcET3D4
Just watch this. Both characters aren't in their prime form, G&W really only gets ***** from really ****ty decision making and relatively poor understanding of the character (how he moves, hitboxes, not using the jabs) still a very good G&W tho, but you can't honestly tell me we can't do better than this.

I am certain that we are already past this metagame. Sure the G&W made bad decisions, but the reason why the G&W got all those nasty combos is because the falco DI'd completely inwards to every combo hit instead of Di'ing away.

Not taking anything away from BS, since that video definitely sparked my interest as well, but I know that we've come a long way since that point.

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

Yea, definitely set himself up...

I still don't see why you could not tech chase or chain grab even a good falco on FD if you know what you are doing, But I have no falcos to try that on...

 

[ZaXXoR]

G&W was my first main, i loved him and thought the same thing, the sad thing is , he's very light, he cannot L cancel all his moves, and his shield is incredibly small, if you practice sweetspotting with his up-b and always light shield, maybe he'd have potential, but you'd wanna CP characters like sheik/ganon, G&W just doesnt do well in enough match ups. in all honesty, i find G&W does good cuz his moves have odd timing and people aren't used to him, but experience players don't fall for most of G&W ****. only way G&W can win against high tiers is if they make alot of mistakes, and you make none, and good players dont make many mistakes

 

[QERB]

@GameCube
You can CG falco's on FD with u-throw until around high 20% or so and you can continue cg'ing him with d-throw if you can react/predict fast enough, though I would reccomend starting a combo with d-air or u-air instead (unless you're fast enough to continuously chaing-grab then do it). And tech chasing falco is certainly doable but it's not easy to react to, but it is possible to bait certain techs.

Also @MED$
You can talk about a lot of disadvantages about almost any low tier character, as they are way less developed have less exposure/popularity than all of the higher tier characters. However I do think g&w has a potentially very strong punish-game, which can allow him to keep up with higher-tiers. I disagree in thinking that he's just a gimmicky character solely because people aren't used to his hitboxes. I've been playing with the same crew (Mr. F, Swedish Delight, bertbusdriver, etc) who are all more-than-used-to gnw's hitboxes & move-timings and I have been keeping up, if not improving steadily.

I'm not trying to boast about it, just giving an example to show why I think you're being unhelpfully pessimistic about the character although he's not even close to being thoroughly explored yet.

If people were not expecting playing g&w to be a challenging task, I don't think they would be here seeking advice.

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

QERB, thanks for helping me out on this, I do believe that g&w has a lot of potential, we just need to learn how to take advantage of his edge guarding, awesome hit boxes, and combo game.

 

[StickandFluid]

if there is anyone i would want in this thread its QERB , but yeah GamecubeScrubb that vid is a little outdated, and just like anything a good game isn't just you playing well, there is a whole other individual in the mix, thats just a good thing to keep in mind when playing smash in general I find

 

[The Phenom]

Just mentioning that Mr.F got 25th @EVO and Swedish Delight placed as well; took a round off Mango in tourney.

Go check out Qerb vs. Mr.F.
---------
CLASS OF 2009!!!™



@StickandFluid

I know someone who lives in Six Flags. Now Smiley can Smash more often. Give me your number or Smiley's so I can text them it.

 

[Keblerelf]

I've been playing with the same crew (Mr. F, Swedish Delight, bertbusdriver, etc) who are all more-than-used-to gnw's hitboxes & move-timings and I have been keeping up, if not improving steadily.

I'm not trying to boast about it, just giving an example to show why I think you're being unhelpfully pessimistic about the character although he's not even close to being thoroughly explored yet.

G&W still sucks though

 

[StickandFluid]

G&W still sucks though

so does falco

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

so does falco

Yes. His recovery can suck G&W's balls (or, shall I say parachute)

 

[StickandFluid]

I mean I know G&W is limited but come on Taj does good with MewTwo MEWTWO!! mewtwo is so limited and in my opinion worse then G&W but thats my opinion, I just think saying a character sucks is a pretty 2 dimensional statement

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

I mean I know G&W is limited but come on Taj does good with MewTwo MEWTWO!! mewtwo is so limited and in my opinion worse then G&W but thats my opinion, I just think saying a character sucks is a pretty 2 dimensional statement

yes.

 

[QERB]

mr. f trolling.

he mad cuz he gets the business from dat gdub on the regular.

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

Yo, so, G&W is a beast and can consistently beat spaces. So lets talk about how, since we gotta dead thread here about tourney potential.

 

[StickandFluid]

well look at it this way even though he CAN wreck spacies doesn't mean he always will, like any character it's mostly the player and how their style is, don't use ariels against spacies, or at least limit them very much, i mean Gdub could rank but it would have to be either a very experienced player who is just overall good at the game or someone who is getting lucky with matchup ignorance

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

well look at it this way even though he CAN wreck spacies doesn't mean he always will, like any character it's mostly the player and how their style is, don't use ariels against spacies, or at least limit them very much, i mean Gdub could rank but it would have to be either a very experienced player who is just overall good at the game or someone who is getting lucky with matchup ignorance

Lol I know, just trying to keep some conversation going (btw, thanks for keeping it going )
I've noticed that G&W's, in general, are very predictable with aerials. So many people talk about limiting fair game, yet I see them spam the living f*ck out of the fair against, lets say, fox. Instead, we should allow the mystical canine approach us, then catch him with a punish grab/d-tilt at early percents, or some aerials/up tilts/more grabs at mid to higher percents. Even a random nair to cover some platforms really doesn't seems like a bad idea when fox is above you, it covers most of his options and it really DOESN'T MATTER that you can't l-cancel it, if you are a G&W player who refuses to use anything but keys and credit cards, I highly suggest you study the defensive metagame that some of his other aerials offer.

If you don't believe me about the fair thing and how hard G&Ws get punished by patient foxes who wait for them to do stupid **** (like randomly fair in the middle of battlefield to cover one option, lol) then watch some tourney vids for me with even really good G&W players vs spacies.

 

[oliman]

The thing about Fox:

1. You can't force him to approach you. This is the case for every character in the game (see mango), but Fox has the superior projectile. If Fox wants you to come to him, you have little choice or you'll tack on some pretty percent.

2. Yes, Fox's defense is ballin against Mr. G, but his offense is almost or just as dominant. He's too fast to play a spacing game efficiently and his shield pressure combined with G's subpar shield options make shielding not such a good idea.

My advice, as a mediocre player, would just be to bait Fox into whiffing/bad spots through superior positioning (e.g. uptilting when he's above you), teching, and reading/mindgames/outwaiting

 

[The Phenom]

="oliman, post: 15768899, member: 136193"]


He's too fast to efficiently play a spacing game and his shield pressure combined with G's subpar shield options make shielding not such a good idea

Nicely stated.

I also agree on using shield.
---------
CLASS OF 2009!!!™

 

[S7GF]

I'm going to smash it up with some people from MN soon.

I've been testing dthrow>full hop>nair at higher percents. Almost every time I've tried it, I've been able to hit Falco, Kirby, Link, and Marth without them jumping. What kind of frames are we looking at here? At what percentage does is work, and ss this a guaranteed hit at that percentage or am I just getting lucky?

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

I've been testing dthrow>full hop>nair at higher percents. Almost every time I've tried it, I've been able to hit Falco, Kirby, Link, and Marth without them jumping. What kind of frames are we looking at here? At what percentage does is work, and ss this a guaranteed hit at that percentage or am I just getting lucky?

Not sure of exact percents, but I know that if you try this on a fastfaller, you need VERY high percents and VERY little DI, so I would recommend the u-throw for spacies, falcon, and other ff's at high percents.

U-throw -> Nair on slow fallers works like every time at lower percents then d-throw for higher percents.

 

[QERB]

d-throw to short-hop/full-hop n-air works on sheik at almost any percent. probably 20%-115% or so. Though I'd recommend going for more of a combo move like f-air or d-air to followup a low % d-throw on sheik, unless you're near the edge and have some kinda gimp in mind.

d-throw to n-air works against peach and puff auto-combo at a wide range of %'s too. Puff you can manage to get it from 0 to even a little > 100% it still connects. Just be wary if they are at like 40-70% or so floaties usually try to DI d-throws to platforms so be ready to chase that.


This list can go on and on, I don't think it's necessary to spit out a list of %'s, basically d-throw the floaties and u-throw the spacies, you'll find something guaranteed to followup with.

The only exception I can think of atm is be careful at some %'s against Luigi if you try to d-throw to n-air him, cuz sometimes he can n-air you out since the parachute take a lil while to hit, maybe stick to the quicker aerials or place the n-air right so you dont get kicked.

edit: FEEL EM OUT

 

[GCS Gaming Customs]

Not a huge debate really, like Qerb said, it is pretty obvious what to follow up with unless you want to go for a d-smash (against spacies) or a regrab.

 

[S7GF]

Ok, well thanks for the input. I'm just wondering because I'm going to be smashing again soon (hopefully).