Supreme Dirt
King of the Railway
- Joined
- Sep 28, 2009
- Messages
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Ganondorf 2011 Matchup Thread
"You dare bring light into MY lair? YOU MUST DIE!"
"You dare bring light into MY lair? YOU MUST DIE!"
It's been a long time since a Ganondorf MU thread has been completed. The closest thing we've had to a complete thread in the past year or two is the personal matchup thread. Bahamut777 started it, and now we must finish it.
We'll do the MUs two at a time each week, in the order of the BBR tier list version 5. Let's move through this and get it done. Possibly let's try and do this over Skype or AIM.
||| QUICK REFERENCE |||
The most important numbers here are pretty much our ratio and the +/-, I'm just including so much because really, why not? All ratios are Ganon first.
Char | Our Ratio | Their Ratio | Personal MU Thread | +/- | BBR
| 20:80 | | | -4 | -4
| 25:75 | none | | -4 | -3
| 30:70 | | | -4 | -3
| 10:90 | | | -5 | -4
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -4
| | | | | -4
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -4
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -4
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -3
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -2
| | 40:60 | | | -1
| | | | | -3
| | 45:55 | | | -1
| | | | | -1
| | | | | -2
| | | | | -2
| | | | | +4
||| META KNIGHT |||
80:20 / -4
Discussion thread.
Finished on 07/12. Open for new discussion.
OVERALL: MK dismisses any kind of presentation or summary about his gameplay: he's da bess. Priority, speed, gimp power and that broken recovery, just to name a few of his pros. Ganon is completely *** handed by MK, in all and every meaning of the term. He loses in priority, he loses in speed, he loses in recovery, he loses in KO potential if you consider gimp, he loses in reach at many moves, he loses at damage racking, he loses at edgeguarding... and so on. The only thing Ganon and MK have in common is the lack of projectile, thus forcing both of them either to approach or to wait for the opponent to do so. No escaping that. And that, my friends, THAT is what makes this MU playable, even if it's almost unwinnable.
PRIORITIES:
MK's now attacking you, completely safe, transcendent and lagless. Keep your defensive game up and punish every mistake you can. The most common mistakes that MKs make are easily punishable by either Jab, FTilt or DTilt, but that doesn't mean they're all error safe. You must punish those mistakes AT SIGHT. If you waste too much frames, you get Shuttle Looped in your face and, probably, lose a stock. Some MKs misspace aerials, mostly DAir, for baiting. You have a small window where you can UAir that baiting and make him even more aggro. Keep up this pace and make little adjustments to keep up and, for God's sake, DON'T LAG!
After he's about 120%, try catching him offguard with DAir onstage for a star KO or a Gerudo -> FTilt, DTilt or even Jab if you're near the edge and he's at more than 160%. This will probably be the hardest part during that stock. If you can't find any openings, continue to rack up your damage, slowly, and sooner or late, the opportunity might show up. Might. Now you're on the stock lead. PLANK! In any way you can imagine, plank your *** until the match is over.
If you lose the lead, then you have to regain it. DON'T RUSH THINGS and go all aggressive on your opponent. If you're taking a beating, just calm down and try to punish every mistake. If there's no punishable mistakes, BAIT A GANONCIDE! This will reset the match and give you a time to breathe. The most usefull way to bait a Ganoncide is, at mid %, let yourself get knocked offstage, don't mess up with DI, read the upcoming gimp and then midair jump away from the opponent -> Gerudocide. DON'T RELY ON THIS TO WIN!
The secret in all this is BAITING. Throw out some random aerials while he's away, shield walk along the stage, SHAD, fake USmash randomly... use all your mind to keep him pissed and then you can start playing seriously. Anything goes.
GERUDO EFFICIENCY: Not so good [4/10]
Gerudo can overtake MK's Dash Attack, running, standing and pivot Grabs and DownB. That means that you won't be using Gerudo that much. But if you ever land one, make sure to make use of it. Tech chase can be risky if you read your opponent wrong. You'll end up losing a good chance to rack more damage than you could. Besides, at high %s, Gerudo means Death to MK.
EDGE GUARDING AND GIMPING: Nonexistent [0/10]
DON'T mess on the edge with MK. Seriously. Even if the kill is guaranteed, don't go for it. You'll die. For sure. Don't even think about it.
TRICKS AND TIPS:
-Aerial Release -> Murder Rail: Guaranteed if buffered right.
-Tornado can be broken by FTilt, Angled Up FSmash, Pivot Grab, Warlock Punch and Aerial Wizkick. All of these hitting MK in the eye of the Tornado.
-MK can be hit by Stomp -> USmash, but can't be hit by the UAir if he dodges or DAirs.
-Aerudo can overtake Shuttle Loop's flight hitbox.
-FSmash clashes with every MK move except for SideB.
[collapse=Important Posts]
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STAGE COUNTER PICKING:##########
||| SNAKE |||
70:30 / -4
Discussion Thread
Finished on 08/08. Open for new discussion.
OVERALL: Snake's gameplay is pretty Solid. He can camp us very well, space himself the way he wants with his coding-error tilts, control the stage as he pleases with Snake Dashing, C4s, Claymores and 'Nades and even screw our recovery a bit. His weak spot, however, is where we do our best: the air. Once in the air, it's time for Ganondorf Murder Airlines to launch a massive wave.
PRIORITIES:
If he isn't approaching at all and you're in disadvantage, you'll have to move first. Suggest a timed Gerudo/Aerudo, since most Snake players punish approaches by 'nade -> spotdodging -> grab. If you run, stop and then Gerudo, you'll mindgame yourself to the advantage. If you land a Gerudo, Snake can be hit by a variety of moves, none of them killing him due to his weight and considering DI, so you're free to do what you think it's best. Also, if you foresee a GU Attack, you can Stomp him into the air, which is where we want to have him.
Once in the air, Snake's almost useless. The most he can do is push a 'nade and shield himself from further harm, but it also sents him further in the air if you trade hits with it. Do as you please while he's in the air, but don't get cocky. Some Snakes can try to push you off by FF BAiring you. Be aware of that and keep you juggling.
KO%? Good. Now you have your Snake at 180%, Try to FTilt him or FAir him. It probably won't kill him if he DIs. If he DIed, he'll go for the high recovery. FoG. That's it! IT'S ****ING FLIGHT OF GANON TIME! If you catch up to him, you can do as Vermanubis and then eat Snakes for breakfast with UAirs and every other move (UAir is the best for the high KO). However, if your opponent isn't at high %s, he'll maybe prefer the low C4 recovery. If he's far from the stage and not aiming for the tech on the stage's walls, Wizkick travel and then MURDER. If he's near the stage, MURDER with DAir, Tipman or even UTilt's spike! You can, also, Aerudo his Cypher and then gently KO him.
If you're too far in the lead, Snake can quickly close the gab with FTilt and, at high %s, he wont think twice before baiting you into his UTilt or C4 KO. Use this at your advantage. Even if FTilt is almost nonpunishable, you may try to PS the second hit and then Jabing/DTilting him. The timing is the hardest part, but it's very rewarding to do so, since you sent Snake away and keeps him out of your range (or send him into the air, in DTilt's case). For the UTilt, just try to avoid approaching him in he ground/low aerial. This prevents the move's sweetspot and, most of times, the KO.
Also, remember that Snake can Grab Release us to UTilt and, in some walk off stages, easy Sourspotted BAir KO. This is something to keep an eye on even more than DThrow chases. Speaking of chases, avoid Chain Choking Snake. His 'nades and traps can interupt our chase and keep us from doing more things to him.
Some Snakes like to avoid your aerials by crouching. While crouching, Grab, running grab, jab, ftilt, Warlock Punch, Wizkick and low Aerudo just won't hit him. It's really bothersome. To punish that, FF an DAir and lag the entire world for the hit or just DTilt instead of aerialing him.
GERUDO EFFICIENCY: Above Average [6/10]
Gerudo outprioritizes Snake's DA, DACUS and can grab him between his FTilt and 3rd Jab hits if timmed right. It's a good punishing option to these actions, alongside with pivot grab. Gerudo also set ups for FTilt, which is a very good gimp/EG start for us.
EDGE GUARDING AND GIMPING: Very good [8/10]
We can do as we please with Snake offstage. His options are very limited and we have enough to deal with them.
-Avoid his GR at all costs. You can try to NAir since it punishes Snake if he misses the timing, but you'll lag.
-Don't go for the Thunderstorm. Snake can pull a 'nade between DAirs.
-Don't try to shieldgrab Snake during either his Jab or FTilt. You WONT reach him.
[collapse=Important Posts]
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STAGE COUNTER PICKING:
##########
||| DIDDY KONG |||
75:25 / -4
Discussion Thread
Discussion finished on 08/20. Open for new discussion.
OVERALL:Diddy is very annoying, with thatstupid yells on every move huge load of banana combos/strings/locks/gimps/KOs/wins. It's very hard to even stand on the ground on this MU. But, if Ganon ever get control over at least one banana, you lock about half of Diddy's options. If you can control both of them, this MU is yours.
PRIORITIES:
Getting control over a naner is almost a must here. This will prevent you from being locked/comboed to the instant death. If you gain control over both, better. You can do this by (Power)Shielding and then Z-Catching, Aerial Catching, Thunderstorming (very useful), Dash Attacking and just picking it up. Also, you can go above the naners with Murder Rail, so you wont slip. Also, SHAD not just picks the banana up, but also avoid tripping (if there isn't another banana below you, that is), making it very useful when moving arround here. Be aware of your shield and try to angle it down most of time. This prevents the poke. If you get a banana, don't throw it a Diddy without thinking. Throw it on the ground or upward or just stay with it for a while. You can try throwing it back at Diddy if he has the other one in his hand. This'll prevent him from taking it and will give you an opening.
You can only rack up damage when Diddy isn't attacking you madly. This can take a while and be very frustrating, but it doesn't mean you can go all aggressive on Diddy and hope to do some damage. He'll grab you and then string you to 100% easily. Once he stopped, focus on your first objective and then proceed with murdering. If you can ever Gerudo Diddy with a naner in hand, remember the almighty Banana Choking, which can kill Diddy at 80% if done near the edge with an angled FSmash. You can also time a FTilt -> Edgeguard if he isn't at high enough %s.
Edgeguard on Diddy can be easy if he recovers with UpB, no matter where he tries to recover to. However, while recovering with SideB, he have some invencibility frames, a grab-spike hitbox and a later hitbox, which is the only one we can hit safely, most times with a DAir to his death. If there are bananas onstage, you can even try to mix your edge guard with items so you can be more effective.
If you're at a stock disadvantage, you can't rely on Gerudocide to reset the match, since Diddy's not likely going to air fight you while you recover. He'll most likely want to set his banana games and try something around the edge. So, you'll have to try getting the lead first.
GERUDO EFFICIENCY: Without banana: [5/10] Average / With banana: [11/10] TOO FRIGIN GOOD
Banana Choking is our main way to KO in this MU, alongside with gimping and edgeguarding. Be sure to keep an eye on it and don't get predictable.
EDGE GUARD AND GIMPING: [7/10] Good
Diddy's options to get back onstage, while limited, can be very versatile on the hands of a good person. Tipman and sourspoted NAir + Edgehog are your main tools here. DAir, if he's recovering high with SideB.
Be aware, tho', that going for the gimp can be risky. If you mess up, you may end up being grabbed by SideB or, even worse, hit by UpB's rampaging barrels. This can, and likely will, put you in a bad situation.
TIPS AND TRICKS:
-Shield grab is almost useless in this MU, since most of Diddy's approaches either involve shield poking or put him behind you, where you can't grab. Also, most of his other moves have high shield push and can't be shield grabbed, wven with Shield DI.
-Aerudo, Murder Rail and Thunderstorming are your main ways to get some damage, since these three don't slip and the last one picks up the bananas.
-If you can grab both bananas, try to keep one of them in your hand and the other one behind you.
-If you hold the attack button while picking up a banana, you can use any smash attack you like without tossing it. This is very good against unwarned players.
[collapse=Important Posts]
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STAGE COUNTER PICKING:##########
||| FALCO |||
90:10 / -5
Discussion Thread
Discussion finished on 09/03. Open for new discussion.
OVERALL: Falco's almost unapproachable with laser camping, chain grab, phantom quick runs and his absurdly high jumps. This match will go like Camp -> Time out if you don't approach, Camp -> Shield Chain Grab -> Spike if you approach, Chain Grab -> Spike if you shield his lasers for too long... It's very painful, but with patience and perfect plays, we might have a chance to take some stocks...
PRIORITIES:
The match will mostly start with laser camping. The best you can do about that is try to (power)shield yourself and walk or jump your way to Falco. After that, he'll most likely aim for either a grab or run away with sideB and keep on with the camp. You can't do much while on this state: risk some reversed UAir, retreating BAir or just throw pivot grabs and try to snatch his sideB.
Once the chain grab % is worn out, you now can try to approach, while still dealing with lasers, which will be very hard. Falco will try to hit you with either FSmash or USmash or, maybe, BAir and try to finish you off. This is where your DI comes in. Don't mess with it, no matter what... While focused on that, try to UAir him as much as possible. It's your best tool against him. If you can get him on the air, do what you can to get him offstage. Retreating BAir works wonders in that. Also, FTilt and Jab are very good after a successful smash block as punishers.
Once offstage, you now have to read his recovery. If he's got his second jump left, he'll either try to sideB onstage or on the edge. To prevent both, WizKick towards the edge. If he's not hit by the kick itself, cancel the wizkick, midair jump -> UAir or UpB to get back onstage. If he's going for the lame upB, just Tipman or Stomp him to his death. No secrets there.
Gerudo is almost useless in this MU, as well as Aerudo and Stomp, so try to keep you game as safe as you can and don't risk yourself over not guaranteed stuff... If you do so, you have a chance to win.
GERUDO EFFICIENCY: [3/10] Bad
Gerudo is only useful to stop his SideB onstage. After a Gerudo, if you don't predict your opponent, don't try to chain choke or either follow up him, since every follow up is risky against Falco.
Risky Gerudo Follow Ups:
Once offstage, Falco is like a sitting duck. If he recoveries at ground level, Wizkick covers almost everything up: It will hit his SideB and get him offstage again, if he's aiming for the edge, you can cancel it and then stage spike or even just hig him... Also, if he ever tries his UpB, Stomp or just Tipman him to death. No secrets.
You can, also, release him if you manage to grab him after his SideB. Don't pummel, nor throw. Just release him. He'll gimp himself to a point where only his UpB can recover. And you'll already be on the edge, hogging it away from him.
On the edge, there's little Falco can do other than just get back onstage by normal ways or sideB onstage... Either way, pivot grab works wonders.
TIPS AND TRICKS:
-Don't go aggressive on Falco. If you ever get shield grabbed, you know your doom.
-If you get chain grabbed, you can try to tech Falco's DAir Spike, altho' it requires training and perfect SDI.
-Falco's Jab is almost unpunishable, so don't even bother trying it...
[collapse=Important Posts]
[/collapse]
STAGE COUNTER PICKING:
##########
We'll do the MUs two at a time each week, in the order of the BBR tier list version 5. Let's move through this and get it done. Possibly let's try and do this over Skype or AIM.
I'll be using the MU information already present in the old thread, they've been discussed fairly recently.
||| QUICK REFERENCE |||
The most important numbers here are pretty much our ratio and the +/-, I'm just including so much because really, why not? All ratios are Ganon first.
| 20:80 | | | -4 | -4 | 25:75 | none | | -4 | -3 | 30:70 | | | -4 | -3 | 10:90 | | | -5 | -4 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -4 | | | | | -4 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -4 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -4 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -3 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -2 | | 40:60 | | | -1 | | | | | -3 | | 45:55 | | | -1 | | | | | -1 | | | | | -2 | | | | | -2 | | | | | +4 80:20 / -4Discussion thread.
Finished on 07/12. Open for new discussion.
OVERALL: MK dismisses any kind of presentation or summary about his gameplay: he's da bess. Priority, speed, gimp power and that broken recovery, just to name a few of his pros. Ganon is completely *** handed by MK, in all and every meaning of the term. He loses in priority, he loses in speed, he loses in recovery, he loses in KO potential if you consider gimp, he loses in reach at many moves, he loses at damage racking, he loses at edgeguarding... and so on. The only thing Ganon and MK have in common is the lack of projectile, thus forcing both of them either to approach or to wait for the opponent to do so. No escaping that. And that, my friends, THAT is what makes this MU playable, even if it's almost unwinnable.
PRIORITIES:
-GET THE LEAD, NO MATTER WHAT!
-Keep it until the match ends.
-Don't lose a stock first.
-Don't get grabbed/gimped/EK-ed.
THE MATCH: When the match starts, MK'll ALWAYS make the first move in order to take the lead and then plank you do boredoom. Knowing this, you must bait him into making a mistake and then punish it. Anything is good enough: a shieldgrabbed Dash Attack, a shielded Tornado -> DTilt... w/e. Taking the % lead makes the game go on until MK's one stock ahead of you. You CAN'T let that happen. And it will be a pain to do so.-Keep it until the match ends.
-Don't lose a stock first.
-Don't get grabbed/gimped/EK-ed.
MK's now attacking you, completely safe, transcendent and lagless. Keep your defensive game up and punish every mistake you can. The most common mistakes that MKs make are easily punishable by either Jab, FTilt or DTilt, but that doesn't mean they're all error safe. You must punish those mistakes AT SIGHT. If you waste too much frames, you get Shuttle Looped in your face and, probably, lose a stock. Some MKs misspace aerials, mostly DAir, for baiting. You have a small window where you can UAir that baiting and make him even more aggro. Keep up this pace and make little adjustments to keep up and, for God's sake, DON'T LAG!
After he's about 120%, try catching him offguard with DAir onstage for a star KO or a Gerudo -> FTilt, DTilt or even Jab if you're near the edge and he's at more than 160%. This will probably be the hardest part during that stock. If you can't find any openings, continue to rack up your damage, slowly, and sooner or late, the opportunity might show up. Might. Now you're on the stock lead. PLANK! In any way you can imagine, plank your *** until the match is over.
If you lose the lead, then you have to regain it. DON'T RUSH THINGS and go all aggressive on your opponent. If you're taking a beating, just calm down and try to punish every mistake. If there's no punishable mistakes, BAIT A GANONCIDE! This will reset the match and give you a time to breathe. The most usefull way to bait a Ganoncide is, at mid %, let yourself get knocked offstage, don't mess up with DI, read the upcoming gimp and then midair jump away from the opponent -> Gerudocide. DON'T RELY ON THIS TO WIN!
The secret in all this is BAITING. Throw out some random aerials while he's away, shield walk along the stage, SHAD, fake USmash randomly... use all your mind to keep him pissed and then you can start playing seriously. Anything goes.
GERUDO EFFICIENCY: Not so good [4/10]
Gerudo can overtake MK's Dash Attack, running, standing and pivot Grabs and DownB. That means that you won't be using Gerudo that much. But if you ever land one, make sure to make use of it. Tech chase can be risky if you read your opponent wrong. You'll end up losing a good chance to rack more damage than you could. Besides, at high %s, Gerudo means Death to MK.
Guaranteed Gerudo FUs:
-Jab
-FTilt
Risky Gerudo FUs:
-DTilt
-Quake
-DSmash
-iDA
Instead of Gerudo, most people prefer relying on Pivot Grabing, that has more priority, speed and it's less predictable. Just... don't try to combo MK. We all know what's gonna happen.-Jab
-FTilt
Risky Gerudo FUs:
-DTilt
-Quake
-DSmash
-iDA
EDGE GUARDING AND GIMPING: Nonexistent [0/10]
DON'T mess on the edge with MK. Seriously. Even if the kill is guaranteed, don't go for it. You'll die. For sure. Don't even think about it.
TRICKS AND TIPS:
-Aerial Release -> Murder Rail: Guaranteed if buffered right.
-Tornado can be broken by FTilt, Angled Up FSmash, Pivot Grab, Warlock Punch and Aerial Wizkick. All of these hitting MK in the eye of the Tornado.
-MK can be hit by Stomp -> USmash, but can't be hit by the UAir if he dodges or DAirs.
-Aerudo can overtake Shuttle Loop's flight hitbox.
-FSmash clashes with every MK move except for SideB.
[collapse=Important Posts]
[/collapse]
STAGE COUNTER PICKING:
Banning:
-Rainbow Cruise
-Frigate Orpheon
-Delfino Plaza
-Jungle Japes
-Brinstar
Counter Picking:
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Battlefield
-Pirate Ship
-Halberd
-Norfair
MATCH UP VIDEOS:-Rainbow Cruise
-Frigate Orpheon
-Delfino Plaza
-Jungle Japes
-Brinstar
Counter Picking:
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Battlefield
-Pirate Ship
-Halberd
-Norfair
||| SNAKE |||
70:30 / -4Discussion Thread
Finished on 08/08. Open for new discussion.
OVERALL: Snake's gameplay is pretty Solid. He can camp us very well, space himself the way he wants with his coding-error tilts, control the stage as he pleases with Snake Dashing, C4s, Claymores and 'Nades and even screw our recovery a bit. His weak spot, however, is where we do our best: the air. Once in the air, it's time for Ganondorf Murder Airlines to launch a massive wave.
PRIORITIES:
-FORCE HIM INTO THE AIR.
-Don't get camped.
THE MATCH: Our first task is to get him into the air, but it's not like he'll approach us with some stupid and reckless move. Snake players tend to be very cautious and start the match by either setting his stage traps or 'nade camping. In either case, you must not fall for his tricks and have to bait him into a DACUS or DA approach, which we can punish "easily". To force that approach, you can either throw his 'nades back or just dodge/shield them if he's cooking (holding them until they're about to explode) them. Thing is... don't let him get a wide % gap.-Don't get camped.
If he isn't approaching at all and you're in disadvantage, you'll have to move first. Suggest a timed Gerudo/Aerudo, since most Snake players punish approaches by 'nade -> spotdodging -> grab. If you run, stop and then Gerudo, you'll mindgame yourself to the advantage. If you land a Gerudo, Snake can be hit by a variety of moves, none of them killing him due to his weight and considering DI, so you're free to do what you think it's best. Also, if you foresee a GU Attack, you can Stomp him into the air, which is where we want to have him.
Once in the air, Snake's almost useless. The most he can do is push a 'nade and shield himself from further harm, but it also sents him further in the air if you trade hits with it. Do as you please while he's in the air, but don't get cocky. Some Snakes can try to push you off by FF BAiring you. Be aware of that and keep you juggling.
KO%? Good. Now you have your Snake at 180%, Try to FTilt him or FAir him. It probably won't kill him if he DIs. If he DIed, he'll go for the high recovery. FoG. That's it! IT'S ****ING FLIGHT OF GANON TIME! If you catch up to him, you can do as Vermanubis and then eat Snakes for breakfast with UAirs and every other move (UAir is the best for the high KO). However, if your opponent isn't at high %s, he'll maybe prefer the low C4 recovery. If he's far from the stage and not aiming for the tech on the stage's walls, Wizkick travel and then MURDER. If he's near the stage, MURDER with DAir, Tipman or even UTilt's spike! You can, also, Aerudo his Cypher and then gently KO him.
If you're too far in the lead, Snake can quickly close the gab with FTilt and, at high %s, he wont think twice before baiting you into his UTilt or C4 KO. Use this at your advantage. Even if FTilt is almost nonpunishable, you may try to PS the second hit and then Jabing/DTilting him. The timing is the hardest part, but it's very rewarding to do so, since you sent Snake away and keeps him out of your range (or send him into the air, in DTilt's case). For the UTilt, just try to avoid approaching him in he ground/low aerial. This prevents the move's sweetspot and, most of times, the KO.
Also, remember that Snake can Grab Release us to UTilt and, in some walk off stages, easy Sourspotted BAir KO. This is something to keep an eye on even more than DThrow chases. Speaking of chases, avoid Chain Choking Snake. His 'nades and traps can interupt our chase and keep us from doing more things to him.
Some Snakes like to avoid your aerials by crouching. While crouching, Grab, running grab, jab, ftilt, Warlock Punch, Wizkick and low Aerudo just won't hit him. It's really bothersome. To punish that, FF an DAir and lag the entire world for the hit or just DTilt instead of aerialing him.
GERUDO EFFICIENCY: Above Average [6/10]
Gerudo outprioritizes Snake's DA, DACUS and can grab him between his FTilt and 3rd Jab hits if timmed right. It's a good punishing option to these actions, alongside with pivot grab. Gerudo also set ups for FTilt, which is a very good gimp/EG start for us.
Guaranteed Gerudo FUs:
-Jab
Risky Gerudo FUs:
-FTilt
-DTilt
-Quake
-iDA
I would suggest Jab almost 100% of the time, unless you can read your opponent's next action. This gets Snake off you and prevents further damage.-Jab
Risky Gerudo FUs:
-FTilt
-DTilt
-Quake
-iDA
EDGE GUARDING AND GIMPING: Very good [8/10]
We can do as we please with Snake offstage. His options are very limited and we have enough to deal with them.
Snake recovering high = Flight of Ganon murder
Snake recovering low and away from the stage = Wizkick travel -> DAir or Aerudo his Cypher
Snake recovering low and near the stage = DAir, Tipman or UTilt spike in the C4's knockback
Snake recovering at midheight and aiming for an edgegrab = Edgehog
TRICKS AND TIPS:Snake recovering low and away from the stage = Wizkick travel -> DAir or Aerudo his Cypher
Snake recovering low and near the stage = DAir, Tipman or UTilt spike in the C4's knockback
Snake recovering at midheight and aiming for an edgegrab = Edgehog
-Avoid his GR at all costs. You can try to NAir since it punishes Snake if he misses the timing, but you'll lag.
-Don't go for the Thunderstorm. Snake can pull a 'nade between DAirs.
-Don't try to shieldgrab Snake during either his Jab or FTilt. You WONT reach him.
[collapse=Important Posts]
[/collapse]
STAGE COUNTER PICKING:
Banning:
-Smashville
-Battlefield
-Lylat Cruise
-Halberd
-Jungle Japes
Counter Picking:
-Final Destination
-Pokémon Stadium 1
-Frigate Orpheon
-Pirate Ship
-Brinstar
MATCH UP VIDEOS:-Smashville
-Battlefield
-Lylat Cruise
-Halberd
-Jungle Japes
Counter Picking:
-Final Destination
-Pokémon Stadium 1
-Frigate Orpheon
-Pirate Ship
-Brinstar
||| DIDDY KONG |||
75:25 / -4Discussion Thread
Discussion finished on 08/20. Open for new discussion.
OVERALL:Diddy is very annoying, with that
PRIORITIES:
-GET CONTROL OVER, AT LEAST, ONE BANANA
-Get Diddy offstage
-Gerudo Diddy with a naner in hand
-Get Diddy on the air
THE MATCH: Ok. First thing to do is put up in your mind that you're gonna live high, so warm up your DI. Diddy can't KO you very well asside from DSmash and, luckly, a fresh FAir. You can SDI out of FSmash's KO and then, living up to 200% with moderate ease. Now that you have your mind set on survival (AND NOT ON CLASHING AND AGGROING DIDDY), let's get on with this.-Get Diddy offstage
-Gerudo Diddy with a naner in hand
-Get Diddy on the air
Getting control over a naner is almost a must here. This will prevent you from being locked/comboed to the instant death. If you gain control over both, better. You can do this by (Power)Shielding and then Z-Catching, Aerial Catching, Thunderstorming (very useful), Dash Attacking and just picking it up. Also, you can go above the naners with Murder Rail, so you wont slip. Also, SHAD not just picks the banana up, but also avoid tripping (if there isn't another banana below you, that is), making it very useful when moving arround here. Be aware of your shield and try to angle it down most of time. This prevents the poke. If you get a banana, don't throw it a Diddy without thinking. Throw it on the ground or upward or just stay with it for a while. You can try throwing it back at Diddy if he has the other one in his hand. This'll prevent him from taking it and will give you an opening.
You can only rack up damage when Diddy isn't attacking you madly. This can take a while and be very frustrating, but it doesn't mean you can go all aggressive on Diddy and hope to do some damage. He'll grab you and then string you to 100% easily. Once he stopped, focus on your first objective and then proceed with murdering. If you can ever Gerudo Diddy with a naner in hand, remember the almighty Banana Choking, which can kill Diddy at 80% if done near the edge with an angled FSmash. You can also time a FTilt -> Edgeguard if he isn't at high enough %s.
Edgeguard on Diddy can be easy if he recovers with UpB, no matter where he tries to recover to. However, while recovering with SideB, he have some invencibility frames, a grab-spike hitbox and a later hitbox, which is the only one we can hit safely, most times with a DAir to his death. If there are bananas onstage, you can even try to mix your edge guard with items so you can be more effective.
If you're at a stock disadvantage, you can't rely on Gerudocide to reset the match, since Diddy's not likely going to air fight you while you recover. He'll most likely want to set his banana games and try something around the edge. So, you'll have to try getting the lead first.
GERUDO EFFICIENCY: Without banana: [5/10] Average / With banana: [11/10] TOO FRIGIN GOOD
Banana Choking is our main way to KO in this MU, alongside with gimping and edgeguarding. Be sure to keep an eye on it and don't get predictable.
Guaranteed Follow Ups:
-Jab
-DTilt
-Quake
Risky Follow Ups:
-iDA
-FTilt
-DSmash
-USmash
-FSmash angled down
Gerudo outtakes Diddy's Dash Attack and Glide Toss (if you're not hit by the naner, that is). It's a bit hard to land it, but very rewarding.-Jab
-DTilt
-Quake
Risky Follow Ups:
-iDA
-FTilt
-DSmash
-USmash
-FSmash angled down
EDGE GUARD AND GIMPING: [7/10] Good
Diddy's options to get back onstage, while limited, can be very versatile on the hands of a good person. Tipman and sourspoted NAir + Edgehog are your main tools here. DAir, if he's recovering high with SideB.
Be aware, tho', that going for the gimp can be risky. If you mess up, you may end up being grabbed by SideB or, even worse, hit by UpB's rampaging barrels. This can, and likely will, put you in a bad situation.
TIPS AND TRICKS:
-Shield grab is almost useless in this MU, since most of Diddy's approaches either involve shield poking or put him behind you, where you can't grab. Also, most of his other moves have high shield push and can't be shield grabbed, wven with Shield DI.
-Aerudo, Murder Rail and Thunderstorming are your main ways to get some damage, since these three don't slip and the last one picks up the bananas.
-If you can grab both bananas, try to keep one of them in your hand and the other one behind you.
-If you hold the attack button while picking up a banana, you can use any smash attack you like without tossing it. This is very good against unwarned players.
[collapse=Important Posts]
[/collapse]
STAGE COUNTER PICKING:
Banning:
-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Luigi's Mansion
-Pokémon Stadium 1
-Halberd
Counter Picking:
-Brinstar
-Norfair
-Battlefield
-Castle Siege
-Yoshi's Island
MATCH UP VIDEOS:-Final Destination
-Smashville
-Luigi's Mansion
-Pokémon Stadium 1
-Halberd
Counter Picking:
-Brinstar
-Norfair
-Battlefield
-Castle Siege
-Yoshi's Island
||| FALCO |||
90:10 / -5Discussion Thread
Discussion finished on 09/03. Open for new discussion.
OVERALL: Falco's almost unapproachable with laser camping, chain grab, phantom quick runs and his absurdly high jumps. This match will go like Camp -> Time out if you don't approach, Camp -> Shield Chain Grab -> Spike if you approach, Chain Grab -> Spike if you shield his lasers for too long... It's very painful, but with patience and perfect plays, we might have a chance to take some stocks...
PRIORITIES:
-Be patient
-Don't get camped by a large % margin
-Get Falco offstage
-Get at high, un-chain grab-able %s.
-Force close approaches
THE MATCH: First: put on your mind that you won't be able to play "freely" until like 80~100% or so. Everything you do before that (except a very midgamed play) will be punished with a chain grab -> spike or any other move. We don't want to get early killed, since we can live up to almost 180% with good DI on this match.-Don't get camped by a large % margin
-Get Falco offstage
-Get at high, un-chain grab-able %s.
-Force close approaches
The match will mostly start with laser camping. The best you can do about that is try to (power)shield yourself and walk or jump your way to Falco. After that, he'll most likely aim for either a grab or run away with sideB and keep on with the camp. You can't do much while on this state: risk some reversed UAir, retreating BAir or just throw pivot grabs and try to snatch his sideB.
Once the chain grab % is worn out, you now can try to approach, while still dealing with lasers, which will be very hard. Falco will try to hit you with either FSmash or USmash or, maybe, BAir and try to finish you off. This is where your DI comes in. Don't mess with it, no matter what... While focused on that, try to UAir him as much as possible. It's your best tool against him. If you can get him on the air, do what you can to get him offstage. Retreating BAir works wonders in that. Also, FTilt and Jab are very good after a successful smash block as punishers.
Once offstage, you now have to read his recovery. If he's got his second jump left, he'll either try to sideB onstage or on the edge. To prevent both, WizKick towards the edge. If he's not hit by the kick itself, cancel the wizkick, midair jump -> UAir or UpB to get back onstage. If he's going for the lame upB, just Tipman or Stomp him to his death. No secrets there.
Gerudo is almost useless in this MU, as well as Aerudo and Stomp, so try to keep you game as safe as you can and don't risk yourself over not guaranteed stuff... If you do so, you have a chance to win.
GERUDO EFFICIENCY: [3/10] Bad
Gerudo is only useful to stop his SideB onstage. After a Gerudo, if you don't predict your opponent, don't try to chain choke or either follow up him, since every follow up is risky against Falco.
Risky Gerudo Follow Ups:
-Jab (try on upward slopes)
-Quake
-iDA
-FTilt (try on upward slopes)
-DTilt (try on downward slopes)
-DSmash (turn around and use it if you foresee a roll in)
-USmash
-FSmash (use this when you predict a roll in. It's almost guaranteed)
EDGE GUARD AND GIMPING: [7/10] Good-Quake
-iDA
-FTilt (try on upward slopes)
-DTilt (try on downward slopes)
-DSmash (turn around and use it if you foresee a roll in)
-USmash
-FSmash (use this when you predict a roll in. It's almost guaranteed)
Once offstage, Falco is like a sitting duck. If he recoveries at ground level, Wizkick covers almost everything up: It will hit his SideB and get him offstage again, if he's aiming for the edge, you can cancel it and then stage spike or even just hig him... Also, if he ever tries his UpB, Stomp or just Tipman him to death. No secrets.
You can, also, release him if you manage to grab him after his SideB. Don't pummel, nor throw. Just release him. He'll gimp himself to a point where only his UpB can recover. And you'll already be on the edge, hogging it away from him.
On the edge, there's little Falco can do other than just get back onstage by normal ways or sideB onstage... Either way, pivot grab works wonders.
TIPS AND TRICKS:
-Don't go aggressive on Falco. If you ever get shield grabbed, you know your doom.
-If you get chain grabbed, you can try to tech Falco's DAir Spike, altho' it requires training and perfect SDI.
-Falco's Jab is almost unpunishable, so don't even bother trying it...
[collapse=Important Posts]
[/collapse]
STAGE COUNTER PICKING:
Banning:
-Final Destination
-Jungle Japes
-Smashville
-Halberd
-Castle Siege
Counter Picking:
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi Island
-Brinstar
-Distant Planet
-Pokémon Stadium 1
MATCH UP VIDEOS:-Final Destination
-Jungle Japes
-Smashville
-Halberd
-Castle Siege
Counter Picking:
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi Island
-Brinstar
-Distant Planet
-Pokémon Stadium 1
##########
