Has Smash Bros. lost its Competative Edge?

[Ghettoman]

Okay I guess you all can consider me on of these guys:

But I don’t Care.

Before I Begin I want to clarify some things:

I am not saying Brawl will not be fun
I am not saying so and so move should have stayed in from melee
I am saying much skill has been taken out of the game.
I am saying I wanted to see a melee 2.0 (I guess)

If you wish to skip this story about my past melee experiences, please do:

“6 years ago I bought super smash brothers for my game cube. At that point I was a complete noob. I beat the game and eventually got all the trophies, like everyone else. I played with friends and had no idea about advanced techs. But when games got to a clutch and I was going to use, I used them unknowingly. Things like edge guarding dash dancing even SHFF (didn’t know about Lag canceling) and teching. Those things always made games more interesting, and made my friends strive to beat me. They did eventually, and over the years I found out things like L canceling, wavedashing and the use of the C stick. (C stick didn’t do anything in 1 player, so I assumed it did nothing in multiplayer.) “

Then one day I saw videos. . . those crazy matches where players did every advanced thing imaginable. At that moment I said “I want to beat them” I never did get to that point, but I had something to strive for. I knew every trick in the book. Even what combos worked on who.

I was told there would be a brawl tournament the night brawl comes out in my area, so the only way for me to get ready was to watch videos. My, was I Horrified!

I understand that the game is different, but I have yet to see any long chain of combos like we used to see. Those were the things that many of use strived for. The “Ken Combo” the “Infinite Shine” long combos like that where great to watch and be a part of, on one side of it.

But thanks to those “Complainers” who went to tourneys and phailed miserably, we get this watered down crap that they call the third installment of Super Smash Brothers. IMO, Those advanced things made the difference between the casual players and the hardcore players. And what end up happening is you see some cocky casual player get his *** kicked, and he complains about all the glitches and stuff because he had never seen them before.

Smash brothers Melee appealed to all. The casually players and the competitive ones. They just cant be brought together. The casual player gets rapped, and the competitive one is left unchallenged.

When I see a sequel or whatever of a game, I expect it to be better than the first, in all ways. God of war, to God of war 2. That is an example of a great transition. Each on should be a building process. “Alright, Im sure you played the previous one, lets build on that a little bit to make this one more interesting.

This next statement in no way compared Halo to smash brothers!
In halo 2 many players played it until the release of halo 3, and now already many players have put down the controllers. This is that same for halo 1 players that put down the controllers for halo 2 . I am afraid this is what is going to happen with brawl. Yes, one player is more fun, same with halo 3, but because of the weapon balancing and glitch removing, there is nothing left to strive for.


One more thing: thanks to their attempt at balancing and making the **** game easier, some awful gliches has arisen:

Falco:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3UTpaKhElhk

Fox :
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yQylP570VvI

Snake:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=lf-E5bTpxOY&feature=user

I’m sure there are still others, but those where the ones I already knew of. If you know more, post them and I’ll add them here

Not only are these things Extremely Easy, they made other things easier. Like links Hookshot ledgegrab now everyone can do it, perfectly. Doing the perfect ledge is instant now, so many small things that required skill that soon become second nature are taken out so now everyone can do them. It Sucks.

Now that many characters are balanced, everyone falls at the same speed, L canceling is removed to eliminate most combos, there are no more moves to be extremely aware of like shieks death punch or peaches down smash. Tourneys will most likely die down soon, and so will the game. I’m almost certain that this game cant really be played competitively, which is what keeps games alive longer than the first few months they are released.

Edit: Now I have seen a few good matches, And i am saing my opinion on brawl has changed a bit. I Still believe Brawl has a bit less competative edge than melee (so far) But will be pleasantly suprised if i am proven wrong.

 

[captainfalconmute]

I’m almost certain that this game cant really be played competitively, which is what keeps games alive longer than the first few months they are released.

so you think Brawl will only be played for a few months?

 

[Ghettoman]

so you think Brawl will only be played for a few months?

yeah, at least only by the huge masses that are anticipating it. But i could be wrong, and I wouldn't mind if i was. Actually i hope i am.

 

[Sagacity]

This is like the 100th thread about this =/

 

[DeuceBlade]

I fell asleep half way through reading this.... although I was highly entertained by the Super Paper Mario picture.

EDIT: Ok I read more of it... all I have to say is... if you don't like brawl continue to play Melee, no one is stopping people from creating more melee tournies, or stopping anyone from playing it all together...

 

[dinhotheone]

...because comparing a tourney of a game that was released one week ago to a game that was released several years ago makes sense.

 

[SuperLink9]

I'm certain it will be played competetively, and there's no question people will play it a lot in the run up to SSB4 (if ever) like Melee's "revival" before Brawl comes out.

And who cares if you won't be. I think it looks great fun, and I WILL be playing it in 6 years. I could still be playing SSB64 easily. It's leet.

 

[captainfalconmute]

yeah, at least only by the huge masses that are anticipating it. But i could be wrong, and I wouldn't mind if i was. Actually i hope i am.

ok, i understand your point that it wont be played for as long as melee (6 years), but id give it more than a few months. also there are a lot of noob players out there who wont be affected by the loss of advanced techniques, so in that sense the length of time they play for wont be affected

 

[trueBLUE]

As someone who never could say "IM TOTALLY HXC MELEE MASTAH LOLOLOL!!!!!1!!!1111"


i personally disagree with you, just because we understand all of the techniques from melee (and yes some have been cut big deal), doesnt mean the game is gonna be a flop because of a new style of game play. that right there leaves plenty of fun to develop new strategies, new mains, new subs, even ways to make the game stupidly fun (ie. look at forge for Halo3; we have the same in brawl except its called stage maker)


Brawl will be the same as Melee was ment to be, not SRS BUISNESS mind you.. but serious fun like it should be.

 

[Lunaretic]

I fell asleep half way through reading this.... although I was highly entertained by the Super Paper Mario picture.

EDIT: Ok I read more of it... all I have to say is... if you don't like brawl continue to play Melee, no one is stopping people from creating more melee tournies, or stopping anyone from playing it all together...

Quoted for truth, on both paragraphs.

 

[Gesi1223]

I'm gonna say out of the two "tourney videos" you posted.

The brawl video was an awful example. As the game has only been out for about 2 or 3 weeks and that video was from the first week.

Which of course means, the game's physics are different from Melee and the players are still actually learning how to cope with that and become better at the game to acheive the same amount of "skill" they had in Melee.

This thread is way too early.

 

[SuperLink9]

I have seen some leet Brawl battles already. Many of Gimpy's battles were awesome.

 

[jonkil]

yeah, at least only by the huge masses that are anticipating it. But i could be wrong, and I wouldn't mind if i was. Actually i hope i am.

you cant really say that since alot of the best players(that ive seen so far) are from NA.
not saything that there arent pros in japan but people that are competative live in the NA like gimpyfish.(gimpy you's got an awesome bowser) Once everyone gets it youll see more videos of amazing combos with advanced techs and some amazing combos without Advance techs. So i dont think it will die down at all.

 

[Lithos]

It's a new and different game, and thus will require TIME and competition to improve. I'd like to see a Melee video from 2001 that compares to the one you linked to, since I'm 100% sure one doesn't exist. The videos we're seeing now of people trying to play Brawl like Melee will pale in comparison to those we see a few years down the road, when the game becomes its own.

 

[Weed]

People WILL discover a way to make Brawl competitive, some already have.
Your speculations and assumptions annoy me.

That's an awesome picture though.

 

[PanzerOceania]

there are some gamers who will play it for 6 years regardless, out of sheer loyalty.

that and the "casual wii gamer" doesn't play any game for that long regardless of how good it is, they just move on the the next thing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

You're comparing a game that just recently came out to a game that has been out for years and then going on to say that you believe Brawl may not be as competetive?
Christ you think people would realize Brawl=/=Melee so of course there are going to be different things.
the least people can do is give the game a eyar before making broad assumptions.

 

[Moldy Clay]

The biggest problem is the fact that we discovered Melee techniques and how to play faster far into the game. Well after it was out.

Brawl's been out 2 weeks in Japan, and not everyone who is good at Melee has imported it. We don't all have the game and not everyone who has it is good yet, since it's got new mechanics and it is different.

You haven't even given the game time to be discovered completely yet.

We can't make these assumptions on the game *before* it's been out long enough (or even out here).

 

[Wiwiweb]

I don't agree. i'm glad the advanced techniques were removed. I'm glad the game was paced down.

Why ? Not because now we're playing the "true meaning of smash bros without exploiting glitches, omglol", but because now, it's much faster to be playing competitively.
Look at me, I tried to wavedash and shffl for monthes without really using them in serious matches. And now in Brawl, I can reach old Melee pros.

But, the game is STILL competitive. We made combos, shff (no l) aerials, etc... It was thrilling.
The only thing that changes, is, now, when a random noob sees a video online and says "I want to beat them", instead of spending three years practicing every combo and every advanced techinque, he'll just need to master short hop fast falls aerials, and maybe the other techniques will find. A few weeks to learn, years to master.

Now, what I understand when reading your post is "I can't bear that somebody who got the game two weeks ago will be able to beat me". Well, first this is false. Scrubs will stay scrubs. Only those who wants to play competitively will be able to reach your level. Second, when you learned wavedash and l cancel in Melee, were you able to beat Ken ? No. You are using the same techniques but he has much more mastering of the game. This is true in all games, including Brawl. Knowing your character, his techniques, his potential combos, when to do them, etc... but also knowing your opponent, makes you better. Not only advanced techniques.

 

[WastingPenguins]

This thread is pointless. The people who understand what makes video games competitive can only nod their heads in silence. The people who don't understand (i.e. the people's whose idea of "competitive" gaming is many steps removed from yours) will always disagree because Brawl WILL be competitive in a scope that is acceptable to them.

The bottom line is that, without l-canceling, the Melee competitive scene would have died out long ago. Even Smash 64 wouldn't be half as competitive as it can be without l-canceling. A pretty compelling precedent, isn't it? Breaks my heart.

 

[Desruprot]

How could we answer the question, We do not even have the game, Good Paper Mario 3 Picture Wiwiweb

 

[Zevox]

I’m almost certain that this game cant really be played competitively, which is what keeps games alive longer than the first few months they are released.

Come on now, don't be absurd. I'm a casual player who has never bothered to learn advanced techniques due to an utter lack of interest. I still play Melee regularly. I know quite a number of others who are likewise as well. Competitive players are a very small portion of the overall population of SSB fans out there - most smash players don't even know such a thing as "advanced techniques" exist (hell, I didn't until I joined NSider about two years ago, and I was still playing Melee then, too). Competitive play is not what keeps games alive. It wasn't what made Melee great for most people, it won't be what makes Brawl great for most people. I can guarantee you that.

Zevox

 

[Yojimbo]

Another day, another "Brawl-will-not-last" thread.

If you haven't picked up the game, you have little to speculate about in this field.

The game hasn't been out even a month and you're judging it based on techniques we learned in Melee years after it came out?

That's **** silly, son.

 

[Knight-errant]

you can't compare Brawl tournament play to Melee tournament play yet. Ken wasn't wiping the floor with people until after Melee had been out for awhile and people had time to learn how to play it and use the advanced techs.

Right now Brawl is still in the "learn-how-to-play" and "discover-new-advanced-techs" stage. If you give it some time, Brawl will be just as good if not better (and I think it will be better) than Melee.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

Your argument was destroyed the moment you said you wanted a Melee 2.0.

A new engine keeps the game fresh.

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

Why we you will most likely not be playing brawl 6 years after it's release.

Fixed.

 

[Mr. Ocax]

The Brawl video you posted was the Montage "crew" who really aren't all that good, AT ALL. And the one playing Falco was Keit who I remember from other videos being absolutely awful. So that video is hardly representative.

 

[StellaNova]

too soon

 

[LunaEqualsLuna]

'I am saying I wanted to see a melee 2.0' - Ghettoman

'I am saying I wanted to see a melee 2.0' - Ghettoman
'I am saying I wanted to see a melee 2.0' -Ghettoman

\end thread.

 

[Ghettoman]

i was a casual player for years, but the advanced stuff is what kept me and my friends playing melee instead of getting bored and playing something else. I'm sorry about the video comparison, that was the only fox vs falco vid i could find. I just wanted to make the point that the gameplay was much faster and more interesting. This is all just my opinion. i don't expect everyone to agree with me, i just wanted to get this off my chest.

 

[Krell]

Another tourney*** complaining about gameplay changes, another thread we don't need to read if we don't want to hear the same old ****.
I hope this trash all gets locked.

 

[Starscream]

Your argument was destroyed the moment you said you wanted a Melee 2.0.

A new engine keeps the game fresh.

Not only that but the fact that he thought that the button combo glitches in Halo 2 were a good thing.

Everyone else in this thread has already said anything meaningful that is against your point and I agree with them.

 

[TenshiOni]

Can't say I agree.

Only advance tech I use in Melee is techning (with the occasional L-cancel) and me and my friends have been playing and loving Melee ever since it came out. We still play on average two times a week (which is usually the number of times we even have time to meet up a week).

 

[Thino]

Then one day I saw videos. . .

the game is 2 weeks old so i stopped reading here

 

[Mr. Ocax]

Actually, I like the pace of Brawl matches. The Melee fights are TOO fast. It's like I have no idea whats going on and I feel like it is going to give me a seizure.

 

[Dyna]

Look, the game was released... ¿when? January 31.
And don't forget, it's a game, play it, have fun.

 

[Y34HDUD3!!!]

Wow. Give the game at least a year, then you can complain. It isn't even out in the U.S. yet. >.<

And what makes you think that Brawl doesn't have as many advanced techniques? Just because we haven't found em yet doesn't mean that they don't exist.

 

[Ghettoman]

Another tourney*** complaining about gameplay changes, another thread we don't need to read if we don't want to hear the same old ****.
I hope this trash all gets locked.

You obviously knew what this topic was going to be about, why did you take the time to read it, and even then, reply to it?

 

[KeyKid19]

I'd say that you are right about some things but wrong on others. First off, I think that the two matches you posted videos of are REALLY uncomparable. For one, the two Brawl players suck. I mean they are really bad. And it's not because of Brawl either; they would suck at Melee just as much from the looks of it. Terrible tactics and technique. Secondly, Brawl has been out for less than two weeks. The Melee video you posted was of two of the game's BEST players after YEARS of practice with the game. In a couple years, new Brawl matches will put that one to shame (well I've seen many that already do but that's besides the point). I still believe that it is WAY too soon to pass judgment on Brawl. You may end up being right, but it is just too soon to say.

As for what I agree with: There are WAY too many glitches in the game. I think in time we'll find that some of them will be able to be avoided by careful tactics (maybe Snake could cancel his UpB and then Dodge to the edge or something; I dunno), but to be honest there just shouldn't be these problems to start with. The auto sweet-spot feature also seems broken. Problems have already arisen for tether recovery characters like Olimar, Zamus, and Ivysaur (especially Ivysaur because the other two have other options), and unless something comes up that gets them around this problem they will be severely hindered in competitive play. Again, this shouldn't happen in the first place. My solution (if I were on the dev. staff) would be to just make all of the tethers do like 1% damage just so they have some way of getting the edgegrabber off. Then if the edgegrabber has invincibility frames from climbing up , the tether doesn't work for grabbing just like how everyone else can't grab on during that short window of time. But to have it just miss whenever someone is on the edge is ridiculous.

So while I disagree about some of the claims you made regarding Brawl v. Melee, I will agree that some parts of Brawl are inexcuseably broken. However I am confident that Brawl will still be Melee's successor and that the general masses will move on from Melee.

 

[Ghettoman]

the game is 2 weeks old so i stopped reading here

actually i was talking about melee videos from years ago.