How does Doc stand?

[MarioMeteor]

How would you the Good Doctor fares compared to the rest of the cast? I hear some people say that Doc is bad, and honestly, I say bull****. I think Dr. Mario has the makings of a solid mid-tier character.

 

[Routa]

He is good... But.... Thats all. He gets outperformed in every every aspect by almost every character. He has too much power to do combos, he is too slow/doesn't have good disjoint to space well or punish correctly.

Mid tier? Nah. Low tier? Yeah. Bottom tier? Maybe.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

His lack of speed and combo ability keeps him below a good portion of the cast. To make matters worse, his speed and lack of jump height don't justify his slightly stronger hits. The final nail in the coffin, for me, is that he's not even that heavy. He weighs the same as Mario but is slower than DeDeDe? Wow, good job "balancing" the characters, Sakurai!

 

[Man of shame]

On two feet kappa
all jokes aside doc is probably low tier or top low tier at best to be honest.

 

[onehundredhitz]

I'd put him mid-low, or high-low.

Yes, I understand that's pretty much the same thing, lol. I just have faith that his meta will truly develop over time.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

There are actually several very good Doc's in the tourney circuit. Look up some videos of TKBreezy and Atomsk (below). Amazing the things they can do. Doc is very read based, so it's not easy for most people to use him successfully. Even then, he's easily gimped and frame trapped. With some very slight adjustments, he could easily be a viable option. Unfortunately, at this point, I believe Sakurai is happy with Doc and won't change him much a all.

 

[Kwam$tack$]

Doc is amazing once you get him down. his down throw and upthrow can both lead to many combos. his attacks have high priority and he has a decent air game. His aerials are crazy strong as well as his smashes, and his Docnado is an offstage nightmare. Once you learn how to properly recover and mix your game up, you can turn Doc into a beast

Examples:

and I looked up atomsk. he's really good:

 

[WeirdJoe27]

Doc is amazing once you get him down. his down throw and upthrow can both lead to many combos. his attacks have high priority and he has a decent air game. His aerials are crazy strong as well as his smashes, and his Docnado is an offstage nightmare. Once you learn how to properly recover and mix your game up, you can turn Doc into a beast

Amen! I've been a huge fan of Doc and was so happy to see him return. I'm sad he got the shaft, but still, he can be deadly. I love watching videos of great Doc players. I've seen a lot of your videos on YouTube, Kwam$stack$..... keep up the fantastic work!

 

[Kwam$tack$]

Amen! I've been a huge fan of Doc and was so happy to see him return. I'm sad he got the shaft, but still, he can be deadly. I love watching videos of great Doc players. I've seen a lot of your videos on YouTube, Kwam$stack$..... keep up the fantastic work!

thanks alot man. im glad there are ppl who appreciate it. i just love playing the game, and doc's the only character it feels right playing with. i played mario, but it always felt like there was something missing

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Doc is fine. Gotta keep developing him.
Mostly his combos and strings to make mistakes far more punishing.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

Doc is fine. Gotta keep developing him.
Mostly his combos and strings to make mistakes far more punishing.

"Fine", but could and should be better.

There's no reason why his strengths don't justify his weaknesses. Look at Roy, for example. Ultra quick -and- ultra powerful (not to mention fairly heavy as well). Doc? Slow and just slightly more powerful than Mario. Same weight. No jump height and minimal combo game. Balanced? Not even close. Make him a tad more powerful than he is and a little more heavy and I'd be fine with him. If you can't change the weight or power, then for God's sake, make him a just a little faster with slightly better jump height.

Seems like common sense, but Sakurai doesn't see it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

"Fine", but could and should be better.

There's no reason why his strengths don't justify his weaknesses. Look at Roy, for example. Ultra quick -and- ultra powerful (not to mention fairly heavy as well). Doc? Slow and just slightly more powerful than Mario. Same weight. No jump height and minimal combo game. Balanced? Not even close. Make him a tad more powerful than he is and a little more heavy and I'd be fine with him. If you can't change the weight or power, then for God's sake, make him a just a little faster with slightly better jump height.

Seems like common sense, but Sakurai doesn't see it.

roy has weak defense. doc has strong defense.
doc does suffer from wth mobility and needs some tweaking to make him more rewarding, but i don't think that justifies him being bottom tier. he has a combo game that i think is untapped (reversed Uair combos across the stage like sheik Fairs), along with his potent Fsmash. I suggest looking at the samus boards and incorporating that into y'alls game.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

roy has weak defense. doc has strong defense.
doc does suffer from wth mobility and needs some tweaking to make him more rewarding, but i don't think that justifies him being bottom tier. he has a combo game that i think is untapped (reversed Uair combos across the stage like sheik Fairs), along with his potent Fsmash. I suggest looking at the samus boards and incorporating that into y'alls game.

Can you elaborate on the defense part?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Can you elaborate on the defense part?

OOS options and coming out of a disadvantaged state. Doc has Nair OOS and up b. Roy only has up b and that's risky since it doesn't cover his entire body.

 

[Spatman]

"Fine", but could and should be better.

There's no reason why his strengths don't justify his weaknesses. Look at Roy, for example. Ultra quick -and- ultra powerful (not to mention fairly heavy as well). Doc? Slow and just slightly more powerful than Mario. Same weight. No jump height and minimal combo game. Balanced? Not even close. Make him a tad more powerful than he is and a little more heavy and I'd be fine with him. If you can't change the weight or power, then for God's sake, make him a just a little faster with slightly better jump height.

Seems like common sense, but Sakurai doesn't see it.

it's to make doc different from mario, and in general to put asymmetries on the roster. (if less speed was connected with more power and more weight for every character, all the characters gave a similar feeling)

so, sakurai choose to sacrifica a litlle of balancement in order to make a very various game, thinking this is the best way to make a funnier game. I'm agree with him, although some choices appear strange to me too

 

[WeirdJoe27]

it's to make doc different from mario, and in general to put asymmetries on the roster. (if less speed was connected with more power and more weight for every character, all the characters gave a similar feeling)

so, sakurai choose to sacrifica a litlle of balancement in order to make a very various game, thinking this is the best way to make a funnier game. I'm agree with him, although some choices appear strange to me too

But Doc's trophy says he's balanced. Sakurai just doesn't understand what that word means, that's all. He didn't intentionally make Doc unbalanced, he just doesn't understand what balance actually is. Simple as that.

 

[Kuraudo]

2ManyCooks put in work on Tearbear

 

[theyellowcub]

I am interested in learning more about using Dr. Mario, is quite discouraging reading how 'low-tier' he is, but I guess I won't be upset and I'll keep trying to get better with him.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

I am interested in learning more about using Dr. Mario, is quite discouraging reading how 'low-tier' he is, but I guess I won't be upset and I'll keep trying to get better with him.

Tiers don't matter as much in Smash. There are no bad characters, just bad players. I'm positive if someone really puts the time into any character, they can be successful (even winning tourneys). Right now, everyone just goes for the easy characters. To me, that's what the tier list is..... which characters are the easiest to win as. With very little time, you can jump in and win as any "top tier" character, but to win consistently as a "low tier" character, it will take time and dedication. That's what's so great about Smash 4, in my opinion.

 

[Yoshister]

I think Dr. Mario is low mid-tier at best, but his combos though...

 

[theyellowcub]

Tiers don't matter as much in Smash. There are no bad characters, just bad players. I'm positive if someone really puts the time into any character, they can be successful (even winning tourneys). Right now, everyone just goes for the easy characters. To me, that's what the tier list is..... which characters are the easiest to win as. With very little time, you can jump in and win as any "top tier" character, but to win consistently as a "low tier" character, it will take time and dedication. That's what's so great about Smash 4, in my opinion.

Thanks for such an awesome answer :D I was playing with friends yesterday and realized that a good Dr. can really kick ass :D

 

[Jiggly]

Tiers don't matter as much in Smash. There are no bad characters, just bad players. I'm positive if someone really puts the time into any character, they can be successful (even winning tourneys). Right now, everyone just goes for the easy characters. To me, that's what the tier list is..... which characters are the easiest to win as. With very little time, you can jump in and win as any "top tier" character, but to win consistently as a "low tier" character, it will take time and dedication. That's what's so great about Smash 4, in my opinion.

thats not true, if it was that easy, then it would be easy to be good at smash. High tier characters are safe, not easy. It's less of a gamble with moves. Low tier characters dont perform well, and usually have to hope to punish opponents mistakes, or get good reads. High tier characters can get away with things due to the great tools they have.

Now I'm under belief that Doc has one of the best punish games out of the roster, but he's just too slow, doesnt have great combos, and is unsafe compared to a lot of the cast. He is harder to do things with, because he doesnt have good tools. It's like running a 5k with ankle weights. You can do a lot better with better things, and thats why they are better. Doc is like having ankle weights, it's harder to do things with him. You can still win a race, you just have to put in a lot more work.

 

[Yoshister]

thats not true, if it was that easy, then it would be easy to be good at smash. High tier characters are safe, not easy. It's less of a gamble with moves. Low tier characters dont perform well, and usually have to hope to punish opponents mistakes, or get good reads. High tier characters can get away with things due to the great tools they have.

Now I'm under belief that Doc has one of the best punish games out of the roster, but he's just too slow, doesnt have great combos, and is unsafe compared to a lot of the cast. He is harder to do things with, because he doesnt have good tools. It's like running a 5k with ankle weights. You can do a lot better with better things, and thats why they are better. Doc is like having ankle weights, it's harder to do things with him. You can still win a race, you just have to put in a lot more work.

This is the best description of Smash 4 tiers I've ever seen.

 

[theyellowcub]

This is the best description of Smash 4 tiers I've ever seen.

I guess that kind of challenges are cool...

 

[WeirdJoe27]

thats not true, if it was that easy, then it would be easy to be good at smash. High tier characters are safe, not easy. It's less of a gamble with moves. Low tier characters dont perform well, and usually have to hope to punish opponents mistakes, or get good reads. High tier characters can get away with things due to the great tools they have.

Now I'm under belief that Doc has one of the best punish games out of the roster, but he's just too slow, doesnt have great combos, and is unsafe compared to a lot of the cast. He is harder to do things with, because he doesnt have good tools. It's like running a 5k with ankle weights. You can do a lot better with better things, and thats why they are better. Doc is like having ankle weights, it's harder to do things with him. You can still win a race, you just have to put in a lot more work.

First of all, love the analogy (it's almost too accurate, lol)!

Regarding the rest of your post, you pretty much sum up what I already said. It's easier to jump into the game as a high tier character because you have more room for error. As a low tier character, you have to be smart and use good reads and more precise timing. Sure, that stuff is great no matter what character you're being, but the higher up on the tier list, the less important it becomes.

I main Doc and really only ever play as him. A while back, I ran into a Captain Falcon that just barely beat me. My reads were perfect, but my timing was slightly off (lag may have been a factor here). He, on the other hand, never missed a grab and spammed Smash attacks randomly which some were bound to connect at some point. Add in a ton of rolling and it wasn't a fun match-up to say the least.

After that match, just for fun, I decided to play as Captain Falcon myself. Again, keep in mind I've never played this character before. I immediately won my next 10 matches. Some were close since I SD-ed, not being familiar with his recovery. But wow.... it wasn't even tough to get a grab and spamming some moves didn't seem risky at all. With Doc, I have to be fairly precise with grabs and spamming Smash attacks is a recipe for disaster. As Falcon? Toss it out there, what's the worst that can happen? It's actually more difficult to whiff than it is to connect.

This experiment is what makes me label certain characters as "Easy Mode". It's like playing a game and setting the difficulty to Easy, as opposed to Hard. Dr. Mario would be playing on increased difficulty. It's still the same game, but pulling off certain moves take more skill. If you play certain "easy mode" characters, those same moves have a higher likelihood of connecting, thus making the chance for a win more easy. I tried some other characters (Roy, Pit, Dark Pit and Toon Link) and, once again, more easily won without really trying. Perhaps the match-ups were in my favor (I don't know, I don't play those characters), but it's truly amazing what happens when characters have more tools at their disposal.

Again, I think we're mostly on the same page, I just wanted to further clarify my previous post and provide an example on why I feel that way. I didn't mean to imply those characters were 'easy' to learn the ins-and-outs of, but rather they have less risks and more rewards than lower tier characters.

 

[KenMeister]

Top tiers being ridiculously easy to play is the exact reason why professionals tend to have negativity towards its meta. It's the reason why no one complains about Fox in Melee, he has an extremely high skill ceiling and requires a high knowledge of knowing your tech, when and how use them, and rewards you for it otherwise you'll get butt kicked even in mid level play for messing up...hard. Fox is really bad combo and chain grab bait. It's the exact opposite in 4.

 

[Wintermelon43]

45/55 customs off.

38/52 (No Lucas, roy, or Ryu, since they're new) customs on

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Doc imo is one of the most underrated characters in the game, primarily because he's overshadowed by Mario despite being good himself. Mario has an easier time at doing most things, but that doesn't mean that Doc should be completely written off as a bad character.

Being a clone of Mario, Doc obtains many of Mario's strong traits. This includes his excellent frame data, a very good grab, and an amazing projectile. While Mario outperforms Doc in most areas doc does have some good advantages. His ability to KO the opponent is significantly better than Mario's because of his insanely good Up B OOS, his Up Smash having more range, and several of his other move such as his B-air, F-Smash, D-Smash, and F-air having more KO potential. His SHFF game is also better than Mario's due to his Short Hop being lower. While Doc can't string hits together nearly as well as Mario, his greater damage output per hit means that the actual damage output from those strings isn't drastically different.

Without comparing him to Mario though, his tools in general are very good. 3 of his aerials are able to autocancel in a SH (2 of which are still able to autocancel when fastfalled), and Doc has an extremely great projectile in his mega vitamins, both of which allow him to apply a good amount of pressure in the neutral. His combo game is pretty decent as well. His ability to edge guard is above average due to Doc tornado, Cape, and Bair. Because his Up B and Nair are frame 3 moves, Doctor Mario can escape from certain combos quite easily as well. His Smash attacks are all fast and decently powerful, making them great punishes as well.

Overall, I'd personally rank Doc somewhere in Mid tier. His general issues (bad range, bad recovery, bad run speed) prevent him from being viable, but I would say the tools he has puts him above most low and bottom tier characters.