How many people really use zelda?

[RyNo 86]

I posted a similar thread in the Zelda section, which was stupid, but I thought that I should also get anyones opinion over here.

How many of you actually use Zelda and don't just change to shiek in the very beginning.

 

[Chris7x]

A good friend of mines uses Zelda pretty well. He actually does worse when he switches to Sheik.

 

[DervisH]

i will sometimes stay as zelda at the start so i reflect falcos laser and fair him then when hes in the air switch to sheik

 

[Rapid_Assassin]

The reason why it was stupid in the Zelda boards is because of course most of the people there play Zelda. The ones that don't just like to spam. When I'm Sheik I change back into Zelda if i start losing (if that counts for anything)...

 

[ELI-mination]

I use Zelda really well. I can **** it up. Oh ****, time for a smiley face...



....There we go.

 

[Tristan_win]

Zelda is my 2nd

 

[$ick]

A good friend of mines uses Zelda pretty well. He actually does worse when he switches to Sheik.

Rofl @ that sig, too good man.

 

[Jaz]

i don't, but that sig from Chris7x was worth the trip to this thread

 

[LeifusYourGod]

Well to be honest i've acctually started using zelda as part of my game play, learned a few shiny combo's and such, just in case i need to switch to zelda for recovery. also i started trying out zelda to mess with my friend when we play, cause he sees zelda and think "sweet, time for easy kills" and he sometimes gets careless, also hes not used to fighting shiek.

 

[Tope]

I'll pick Zelda if I'm doing a MM where I have to play as Sheik/Zelda when I get counterpicked to stages like Mute City, Brinstar.

 

[Azelf]

My brother plays Zelda pretty well when he wants to, but he's mainly a Sheik guy.

 

[chickenpoteyeballs]

My main is Shiek, hence I am in this forum. BUt I use Zelda for getting on stage when my friend knocks me offstage.

 

[Banks]

no one uses zelda in tournament lol

 

[APImagine]

I stick to Sheik only, really.

How many people actually use Zelda? Enough so that it's board has more posts than Sheik's, methinks.

 

[okami473]

The people who use Zelda just forget to hold A when they start...........

 

[APImagine]

Then I've technically used Zelda....

(I used to forget to hold A when I first started playing Sheik)

 

[adumbrodeus]

I decide which to use based on type and number of opponents. For example Zelda tends to be very beneficial in bouts where there are other people fighting each other (aka, team battles or free-for-alls with more then two people) because Zelda has several great haymaker moves that make it very easy to punish people for not paying attention to you which I have often been able to use in combination with effective defensive strategies to defeat far superior players when paired with a good defensive strategy (think level of superiority in terms of a KO ratio of them getting 3 KOs to my one when it inevitibly became a 1v1 bout at the end).

And the other hand, in most 1 versus one situations Sheik proves to be superior, though I've found Zelda more effective versus Sheik's one hard counter, the Ice Climbers.

There are also mid-battle situations where it pays to change quickly (assume that you just knocked fox pretty far off but the distance was horizontal, Zelda has a few particular talents when dealing with fox's recovery moves that Sheik doesn't, and you should have time to change).

I'm trying to develop a style of fighting that utilizes both characters to their fullest potential, including freely changing when the situation dictates.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I'm trying to develop a style of fighting that utilizes both characters to their fullest potential, including freely changing when the situation dictates.

the only situation where zelda is better than sheik is recovering. and dont upb if u are going to be edgehogged, just transform back so you dont get ***** out of your invincibility when you respawn.

 

[CopyCat]

i use Zelda as my third

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

m2 > zelda. 'nuff said.

 

[adumbrodeus]

the only situation where zelda is better than sheik is recovering. and dont upb if u are going to be edgehogged, just transform back so you dont get ***** out of your invincibility when you respawn.

Technically, but Zelda has some powerful moves with killer priority, and against certain opponents, proves a better match-up then Zelda.

Plus, it's not just about technical superiority, a lot of smash is about mindgames, and there's nothing more confusing then your opponent thinking that he's/she's figured out exactly how you play, only for you to change forms and no that person has to deal with a completely different fighting style.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Technically, but Zelda has some powerful moves with killer priority, and against certain opponents, proves a better match-up then Zelda.

Plus, it's not just about technical superiority, a lot of smash is about mindgames, and there's nothing more confusing then your opponent thinking that he's/she's figured out exactly how you play, only for you to change forms and no that person has to deal with a completely different fighting style.

uhh zelda has low priority, lots of start up, and small sweet spot on her finishers. sheik has an easy fair or bair that are very fast and kill easily. and yes mindgames are important, but switching to a char that is slow and has only a few moves to actually be able to use is not going to beat anyone.

 

[angel551]

mainly i use sheik, i find her easy to do damage, but when the enemy has been hit a lot, i SOMETIMES switch, and use zelda's c stick moves to finish ppl off

 

[nicaboy]

i use zelda very often. when use correctly shes a deadly killer. also people do use zelda in low teir tourneys.

 

[thedarkyoshi]

Zelda/Sheik

The best part about using zelda is that everyone underestimates her, unless they use her too, but anyway. I got sometips w/zelda to help everyone get better with her. I saw that she is powerful, but not fast, just like ganondorf and Sheik is fast but not many moves are strong liek C. Falcon. Put these to together and you will become unstoppable!
My Sheik and Zelda are very evenly matched. People tend to forget Zelda can deflect projectiles. Her smash is killer. Also if you keep changing between Zelda and Sheik, your opponent needs to adjust to the speed change everytime. Also Zelda has a meteor smash, which is extremly hard to use... And Zelda can juggle some characters just like sheik. It does way more damage, i think. Anyway, I think Sheik can only be used to her full power by changing to Zelda every now and then. Master Zelda and Sheik, and you will become unstoppable.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

my friend's sheik is about the same as his zelda

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

zelda is top tier. ill MM anyone zelda vs sheik.

 

[adumbrodeus]

uhh zelda has low priority, lots of start up, and small sweet spot on her finishers. sheik has an easy fair or bair that are very fast and kill easily. and yes mindgames are important, but switching to a char that is slow and has only a few moves to actually be able to use is not going to beat anyone.

Since this is revived, let me answer this.


I said "some", not all, certainly zelda has plenty of moves with low priority but she also has a few incredibly powerful moves with killer priority, think bair, and fair. The killer slap of doom is quite a fair, and Sheik's bair is quite useful as well, but even the slap doesn't compare to Zelda's bair, Sheik's bair fares similarly. Sure, the sweet spots are small, but any half-way competent smash player can space well enough that it can be reliably sweet-spotted with a bit of Zelda experience, I know I picked it up almost instantly against highly experienced smash players (near-pro).

Of course there's the up-air with the enormous hit-box (though it has start-up lag), her reasonably powerful b moves that includes a deflector (useful against peach, falco, fox, samus link, need I go on?) a nasty f-smash, the game's fastest d-smash, I think she has a few situationally useful tricks.

Of course she's not as good as Sheik overall, far from it, but she has her strengths, why waste them?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Since this is revived, let me answer this.


I said "some", not all, certainly zelda has plenty of moves with low priority but she also has a few incredibly powerful moves with killer priority, think bair, and fair. The killer slap of doom is quite a fair, and Sheik's bair is quite useful as well, but even the slap doesn't compare to Zelda's bair, Sheik's bair fares similarly. Sure, the sweet spots are small, but any half-way competent smash player can space well enough that it can be reliably sweet-spotted with a bit of Zelda experience, I know I picked it up almost instantly against highly experienced smash players (near-pro).

Of course there's the up-air with the enormous hit-box (though it has start-up lag), her reasonably powerful b moves that includes a deflector (useful against peach, falco, fox, samus link, need I go on?) a nasty f-smash, the game's fastest d-smash, I think she has a few situationally useful tricks.

Of course she's not as good as Sheik overall, far from it, but she has her strengths, why waste them?

sheik's finishers > zelda's. spacing is hard for zelda even if you are good you wont hit 100%, and comparatively the knockback for unsweetspotted is crap compared to sheik's non sweetspot. plus zelda has like no combos to speak of to get into the finishing situations.

 

[adumbrodeus]

sheik's finishers > zelda's. spacing is hard for zelda even if you are good you wont hit 100%, and comparatively the knockback for unsweetspotted is crap compared to sheik's non sweetspot. plus zelda has like no combos to speak of to get into the finishing situations.

Sheik's fair has enormously short range and her bair has an even more difficult sweet spot then zelda's, and without the sweet spot, though it causes reasonable knockback, it's far from enough to qualify it as a good finisher. Really, Zelda's sweet spot is not hard to hit with, you just need a bit of experience, of course it's not 100%, nothing is 100%, but it generally leads nicely into something else if you don't sweet spot it anyway.

As for combos, the people on the combo videos here would disagree with you. Sure, the vast majority of her combos aren't hard combos, but instead your initial attack puts you in a position where you can punish almost any reaction (generally, whichever way they DI). Plus, a string of non-sweet-spotted lightning kicks make a good pseudo wall of pain because of her great recovery.



But, we're talking about freely switching between Zelda and Sheik, not using Zelda in a vacuum.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sheik's fair has enormously short range and her bair has an even more difficult sweet spot then zelda's, and without the sweet spot, though it causes reasonable knockback, it's far from enough to qualify it as a good finisher. Really, Zelda's sweet spot is not hard to hit with, you just need a bit of experience, of course it's not 100%, nothing is 100%, but it generally leads nicely into something else if you don't sweet spot it anyway.

As for combos, the people on the combo videos here would disagree with you. Sure, the vast majority of her combos aren't hard combos, but instead your initial attack puts you in a position where you can punish almost any reaction (generally, whichever way they DI). Plus, a string of non-sweet-spotted lightning kicks make a good pseudo wall of pain because of her great recovery.



But, we're talking about freely switching between Zelda and Sheik, not using Zelda in a vacuum.

lol dude, she has no combos. i watched that combo video, and i can sum the thing up really easily: fair/bair, the opponent runs right back at her and gets faired/baired again. wow awesome combos. i didnt see a single true combo there. now, ive played against good zeldas and its not hard to just mess up her spacing by moving. oh yea, sheild grabbing zelda is so easy. her fair/bair is like trying to hit a tipper with marth every single time and if u miss you die. sheik beats zelda in every catagory, and btw, the bair sweetspot is the same as zelda's. it might even be easier. and the knockback is decent even if you dont sweetspot.

 

[adumbrodeus]

lol dude, she has no combos. i watched that combo video, and i can sum the thing up really easily: fair/bair, the opponent runs right back at her and gets faired/baired again. wow awesome combos. i didnt see a single true combo there. now, ive played against good zeldas and its not hard to just mess up her spacing by moving. oh yea, sheild grabbing zelda is so easy. her fair/bair is like trying to hit a tipper with marth every single time and if u miss you die. sheik beats zelda in every catagory, and btw, the bair sweetspot is the same as zelda's. it might even be easier. and the knockback is decent even if you dont sweetspot.

I'm talking about, dash to fair/bair/up-air, chain-grabbing (from up-throw), up-throw to fair/bair/up-air, shffled fair/bair combos at low percents, psuedo-wall of pain using fair/bair, recovery punishing, and plenty of other combo types, all of which were present in the videos.

Moving the right way messes up everyone's spacing, that's why proper spacing is always a fight.

Zelda's sweet-spot is far easier to hit with then Marth's tipper (playing both, I know), and non-sweet-spotted bairs and fairs generally lead into combos..

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

marth's tipper is insanely easy to hit. just because you cant doesnt mean zelda's is easier. marth's should be easier just because his covers more area than zelda's though basically the size difference is negligible (seeing as the majority of the slash doesnt matter). if you want me to pull out hitbox pictures to prove this to you i will.

btw, leeway on spacing is very high especially with the top tiers. other than marth none of the top 5 chars can be shield grabbed unless they **** up. with marth your whole game is spacing so it doesnt matter. zelda is bottom tier because she sucks. she has things she can do, dont get me wrong, but shiek beats her in every catagory, just like she beats 60% of the cast in every catagory. you know how some people say mario is middle tier cause he can do everything all right? well sheik is the same way, except she does everything really well. she has ganon's platform game, one of he best projectiles in the game (has the highest priority, even cancels out one of falco's lasers, and 1 needle blocks full charge shot), no brain fairly inescapable combos, and tons of finishers. every one of her moves can be well put into her game, least used of which are fsmash and side b, but both having their uses (unlike other top tiers, like marth's usmash, fox/falco's fair, peach's b/sideb, ect) she can kill off the top like fox, do marth's gay off stage gimping, almost no lag, the only thing she is missing is a spike. zelda has what? a dsmash and 2 aerials.

 

[Dr.Peabody]

Chill, plz.

True, statistically and in practice, Sheik > Zelda. However, Zelda isn't as much the p.o.s. you are making her out to be.

1. Zelda's fair/bair sweetspot. If you want to compare it to marth's, it is more forgiving with the hitbox, and is faster than marth's fsmash.

2. A "samus affect" ... relative to sheik, zelda is floaty and a bit heavier, making her harder to combo, and making is a lot easier to squeeze in that fair.

3. Other decent Zelda moves... dash, fsmash, utilt, dair, nair, nayru's love, din's fire... bla bla bla.

4. It's not like Zelda has "A" fair/bair, but rather "THE" fair/bair... >.<''

In sheik vs zelda matchups, you would actually be surpised on the outcome... it's not the sheik ***** all you would think it to be. >.<

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

im not saying it is. i am just saying sheik is a better character in every way. in no way does the fact that she isnt the best at something mean that she cant do it. im just trying to explain why she is bad to main. i play her in friendlies, she is fun to play. that doesnt make her a good character.

for the record, floaty doesnt mean you cant be comboed. in fact, floaties can be comboed very well by like any character. also, dins fire is probably the worst projectile in the game, fsmash is slow, dair is the worst meteor in the game (i could sweetspot the edge with marth out of that at over 100%) , nair is fairly worthless (besides maybe trying to escape combos, like peach's nair), and nayru's love sucks compared to cape/shine (start-up and lag times are really bad, easily punished by anyone that uses projectiles).

 

[adumbrodeus]

marth's tipper is insanely easy to hit. just because you cant doesnt mean zelda's is easier. marth's should be easier just because his covers more area than zelda's though basically the size difference is negligible (seeing as the majority of the slash doesnt matter). if you want me to pull out hitbox pictures to prove this to you i will.

I'm not talking about sweet spot area actually, and yes I CAN sweet spot with Marth (he is one of the characters I use). Marth's F-smash however has considerably more lag, at least before it hits the important area of the slash (well, if you're hitting people in front of you anyway), which leaves more time for them to do something that changes it from a tipper to a regular f-smash, which is why it's harder, you need more time to properly execute it. Lightning kick is far closer to instantaneous, ESPECIALLY reverse lightning kick. Really those couple of frames make all the difference.

That said, I'll gladly take you up on the hitbox data anyway, I've been looking for it (in general, not just lightning kick and Marth's F-smash).

btw, leeway on spacing is very high especially with the top tiers. other than marth none of the top 5 chars can be shield grabbed unless they **** up. with marth your whole game is spacing so it doesnt matter. zelda is bottom tier because she sucks. she has things she can do, dont get me wrong, but shiek beats her in every catagory, just like she beats 60% of the cast in every catagory. you know how some people say mario is middle tier cause he can do everything all right? well sheik is the same way, except she does everything really well. she has ganon's platform game, one of he best projectiles in the game (has the highest priority, even cancels out one of falco's lasers, and 1 needle blocks full charge shot), no brain fairly inescapable combos, and tons of finishers. every one of her moves can be well put into her game, least used of which are fsmash and side b, but both having their uses (unlike other top tiers, like marth's usmash, fox/falco's fair, peach's b/sideb, ect) she can kill off the top like fox, do marth's gay off stage gimping, almost no lag, the only thing she is missing is a spike. zelda has what? a dsmash and 2 aerials.

I know about leeway on spacing, but everyone messes up occasionally, and higher tiers aren't all you might have issue with (think Ice Climbers, though any grab-based combos aren't too effective on them unless nana is ko'ed).

But you must realize that I don't essentially disagree with you, my caveat is with your absolutist wording, you say Sheik does "everything" better then Zelda as opposed to "very nearly everything". That, and my belief that those cases not covered under "very nearly everything" merits an occasional change.

What does Zelda have? Well, as you pointed out the dsmash and 2 aerials which outprioritize God (ok, maybe not, but they have VERY good priority), but she also has a pretty nice f-smash (which even if you don't sweet-spot it has considerable knockback, and has nice damage in any case), another good aerial (up-air, though you have to time it well, the massive hitbox does certainly help make up for it, not many d-airs can get through it if timed properly, Marth's might, but I don't think so), a projectile reflector which doubles as an egdeuard, an ideal up-smash for comboing at low percents, good recovery, and the act that her up-b can be used to move very quickly from place to place on the stage, and is near lagless if you land on the ground.

Sure, it's nowhere near as impressive as Sheik's list of ailities, but they're useful.



Oh, and Up-smash for marth has it's uses, if only the threat of it being an incentive to not be directly above Marth, though it's rare that up-tilt isn't better. So does Peach's side b, however that's many recovery. Not being a fox player I haven't really explored enough to find uses for his fair.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you clearly dont understand what i am saying. sheik is better than zelda in every single way. i believe i already said that doesnt take away from the moves zelda has at all. just because she isnt the best at something doesnt mean she has nothing. that is a common misconception that people who play top tiers have about the lower tiers.

and with the usmash, sure it has a once in a 100,000,000 use (hell ive KOed with it sweetspotted before) but there are always better options even in that one time. if u ask any *decent* marth they will tell you never to use usmash. if you see a usmash, it was an accident (either utilt mess up, or csticked fsmash that was hit at the wrong angle). with peach's side b, i meant in an offensive way (i thought i said that).

 

[adumbrodeus]

you clearly dont understand what i am saying. sheik is better than zelda in every single way. i believe i already said that doesnt take away from the moves zelda has at all. just because she isnt the best at something doesnt mean she has nothing. that is a common misconception that people who play top tiers have about the lower tiers.

I know what you're saying, I just disagree. The stuff I pointed out is not there because Zelda has it and it's useful, but because Sheik doesn't, and therefore isn't better at it. For example, Sheik can only powershield to reflect projectiles for instance, which does nothing in the air.

Sure Sheik is overall far better, but there is quite simply, some stuff which Zelda does have that Sheik does not which are situationally better.

and with the usmash, sure it has a once in a 100,000,000 use (hell ive KOed with it sweetspotted before) but there are always better options even in that one time. if u ask any *decent* marth they will tell you never to use usmash. if you see a usmash, it was an accident (either utilt mess up, or csticked fsmash that was hit at the wrong angle). with peach's side b, i meant in an offensive way (i thought i said that).

Not always, it's a powerful move if it connects and sweet-spots, it's just gonna be incredibly rare that it's more useful then other moves (up-air, f-smash, up-tilt), but it does happen, and you'll be glad you have it (once and counting), and it's still a threat, a threat is often more effective then it's execution, every good Marth I've talked too have always said at first, "never use the up-smash", then later amended it with, "ok, you might come up with a 1 in a million chance where it's better, but in general, don't use it", which is all I'm saying. As I'm sure you noticed, I'm arguing for very fine gradations.


As for Peach bomber..... Ok, when defined that way, you win, I have yet to see a single case where it's more useful then another move in peach's arsenal, it's too laggy, and doesn't have a large enough hitbox to justify using it over any other moves, except as a mindgame.

 

[4 Aces]

The people who use Zelda just forget to hold A when they start...........

Lol, nice one. Who's the best Zelda? Or just pretty good. That's fine too. Just curious.

Edit: Whoa, didn't see what was going on here. Didn't mean to interrupt anything. You guys are having a very intelligent discussion right now. I like that; it makes me all happy inside. =)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I know what you're saying, I just disagree. The stuff I pointed out is not there because Zelda has it and it's useful, but because Sheik doesn't, and therefore isn't better at it. For example, Sheik can only powershield to reflect projectiles for instance, which does nothing in the air.

Sure Sheik is overall far better, but there is quite simply, some stuff which Zelda does have that Sheik does not which are situationally better.




Not always, it's a powerful move if it connects and sweet-spots, it's just gonna be incredibly rare that it's more useful then other moves (up-air, f-smash, up-tilt), but it does happen, and you'll be glad you have it (once and counting), and it's still a threat, a threat is often more effective then it's execution, every good Marth I've talked too have always said at first, "never use the up-smash", then later amended it with, "ok, you might come up with a 1 in a million chance where it's better, but in general, don't use it", which is all I'm saying. As I'm sure you noticed, I'm arguing for very fine gradations.


As for Peach bomber..... Ok, when defined that way, you win, I have yet to see a single case where it's more useful then another move in peach's arsenal, it's too laggy, and doesn't have a large enough hitbox to justify using it over any other moves, except as a mindgame.

the only thing zelda has on sheik is the reflect thing. maybe her teleport for movement (i still think M2's is better ). otherwise, sheik >>>>>> zelda.

and the usmash being a threat... its not. it would only be a threat if it could be used consistantly to get at least 1 kill in say... every ten matches. to make it a threat in a tourney match you have to do it within the Bo3 (otherwise they wont even really consider it to be there). what im saying is, because of its inconsistency, it is not a useful move at any time, and that a million times greater consistancy is worth the slight knockback reduction in any case. once you can find me a marth that can do a usmash kill at least once every 10 matches, i will retract my statement about it being a completely useless move, but until then, that is exactly what it is.