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How to REALLY help Mario go up on the tier list.

steep

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 17, 2009
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Location
Columbus, IN
Okay guys, I have been a part of this community for a few years now. I know I haven't been super active recently, but I am planning to change that. However, when I decided to try to get back into the scene, I checked the Mario boards here, and I was a little disappointed in what I found.

This isn't a bashing on us or anything, but I feel like we are stuck in this old mindset of "if only we could figure out new combos, or new utilizations for Mario's moves, we'd go up in the tier list to where we think Mario should be." Now while this was a fine mindset in the beginning, we are already 5 years into this game and I think it is safe to say that most of the advanced techs and combos have been established. I'm not saying that there is nothing new to be found: I'm just saying that I don't believe that searching for new discoveries about our character is the answer to getting better tourney placings.

As such, some of you may be asking, "So what is the answer?"

I believe that the answer lies in mastering the fundamentals of Brawl, and I think many of you in the community will agree with me.

Now, I know that when I was starting out, people would always tell me, "You've got a good start, but you need to work on the fundamentals." I was always very appreciative. I would smile, nod, and say thank you for the advice, and then I would get home, turn on the wii, and think to myself, "How the **** do I practice the fundamentals?" I would make up exercises for platform cancelling and buffering aerials for longer strings, etc. But in a tournament setting the chances of those skills coming into effect became increasingly rare as the community for this game developed. And so, I was thinking about what we could do that could be both USEFUL and APPLICABLE to improving our individual games during tournament play.

Here is what I came up with: I propose that we construct a checklist of fundamental skills that we can think about mid-match. Whenever you find yourself in a losing situation or when you lose a stock, chances are you were lacking in one of these areas. The reason I say this is simple; people aren't perfect. Your opponent is going to make mistakes on this same checklist, and being able to capitalize on their weaknesses in that regard will increase your chances of winning against ANY character. I truly believe that! That being said, in the next post there is a preliminary list that I have compiled: (I want to hear everyone's opinions and input on this! Don't be shy. :D )
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Spacing

Questions to ask yourself:
- Am I often hitting nothing but air with my moves?
- Am I often hitting my opponent with moves such as bair, ftilt, or fireball that are getting punished even after I land the move (on shield usually, but also can happen at low %)?
- Am I getting punished for whiffed grabs, smashes, etc.?

If your answers to any (or all) of these questions are yes, then:
- Focus on landing moves with the tip of your hitbox (i.e. the tip of Mario’s feet on bair or ftilt)
- Make sure you have adequate space to be throwing fireballs: even if they power shield, you still don’t want to be punished.
- Recognize they are baiting your moves and mix it up by waiting for a half a second longer before attacking or not attacking at all (empty hopping, etc.) and see if you can bait them instead. Also try to watch for patterns (are they shielding a lot, spot dodging a lot, etc.) and pick an appropriate counter (grabs, hold “a” for repeated jabs, etc.)

Momentum

Questions to ask yourself:
- Am I taking more damage than my opponent (by a significant amount)?
- Do I feel like I never get a breath while playing against my opponent?
- Do I find myself on the ledge the majority of the time?
- Are all of my attacks being shielded/dodged?
- Is my opponent making lots of reads on my movements?

Solutions:
- Reset the situation. If you find yourself having any of these problems, your opponent has control, which could mean a lot more percent for you, a loss of a stock, or even the loss of a game or a set. Run away and fireball camp or simply bair wall, etc. to try to keep them at bay while you catch your breath. Try to remain calm as you do this.
- As always, mix up your options. Know and be familiar with all of your options on the ledge, while in shield, or simply while standing or walking.
- Change up your timing or mimic your movements preceding an option that you have been using, but then choose a different option. (i.e. if you’ve been fireballing a lot, short hop and land and do three jabs or an ftilt instead)
- Make sure you aren’t doing a lot of laggy moves! This includes SMASHES and ROLLING, first and foremost. These moves are easily read, especially at high levels of play.
- Don’t be TOO aggressive, but you don’t want to give up your momentum either. Learn to read the situation through experience, and know when to stop going in, or when to stop being too defensive. This is difficult to master and will take practice. Don’t get discouraged!

Power Shielding

I was debating putting this under Momentum, but I think it deserves it’s own category. Why is this important?

- PS’ing has no lag from having to drop shield, making it possible to nearly instantly punish your opponent. This opens up a lot more options for punishment, because your punishing option effectively begins before your opponent’s move that hit your shield ends. This GREATLY shifts the momentum, instantly putting you in control of the situation.
- If your opponent is allowed to do this, many of our moves become detrimental to ourselves. For example, if you short hop at a DK and throw a fireball, and DK power shields a fireball, he can dsmash you out of the air before the animation for your fireball throwing ends. There is also the MK tornado < PS video out there on YouTube that is ridiculous… and helps prove my point.

Weak vs. Strong Moves:

Questions:
- Am I having a hard time killing with my smashes at high %’s?
- Am I trying really hard to kill my opponent but there just aren’t any openings?
- Am I getting punished a lot for whiffed smashes?

Solutions:
- Smashes are very helpful for landing that kill move and they make a great punishment option on a good read, but with high rewards come high risks. It is up to you as the player to decide when it is worth the risk. Most of the time with Mario, you may want to pick a weaker option.
- By choosing a weaker option, such as tilts or jabs, you give your opponent less time to punish your moves. While this may take longer to kill your opponent, if you can maintain momentum with these weaker moves you can eventually net yourself a kill move.

Conditioning

Questions:
- Do I find myself picking the same options a lot? (falling INTO my opponent, rolling in pressured situations, air dodging into the ground, using dsmash when feeling pressured, etc.)
- Am I being read a lot?

Solutions:
- Recognize when you have habits (or have a partner watch you play and tell you your habits) and work on removing them.
- At the same time, work on recognizing when your opponent has habits and capitalize on those habits. Don’t just go for crazy reads all the time. Make educated reads based on what you have observed them doing throughout the match in similar situations.
- If you want to condition your opponent, throw out the same option in the same situation (preferably one that isn’t too punishable) and when you notice that they are beginning to adapt to that option, watch what their new option becomes. Then, punish that option. (Example: use ftilt at a certain range a lot, notice your opponent begins spot dodging them, charge fsmash and release during their spot dodge for a satisfying kill)

Footstooling

This is a BIG one, I think. I believe that footstooling is the future of getting out of combos, and it has started becoming commonplace in upper levels of play. Learn to footstool when an opponent is coming up from below for an extra jump. Mario has some decent air mobility, especially with wavebounced/b-reversed fireballs. Utilize these tools + footstooling to avoid getting juggled. Also, footstooling is great for setting up team combos and possible reads/jab locks (if your opponent doesn’t roll fast enough) because it can’t be tech’d. On another note, a standing opponent can be footstooled-nair’d while in their shield, as footstooling them (sweetspotted, anyway) forces your opponent to drop their shield. Opponents who are trying to recover low and are dropping below the stage are often prone to being footstooled as well since they are waiting to use their recovery move.

Understanding RCO Lag

RCO lag stands for Recovery Carry-Over Lag, and it happens whenever Mario sweet-spots the ledge with his up-b. What happens is that the next time Mario lands on the ground without performing an action, he has quite a bit of lag where he just stands there with his hand on the ground… And we can't do anything about it. This severely limits our options since we can't simply fast fall to ground and grab, as you will have this lag. Our opponents, if they are knowledgeable enough about Mario, will take advantage of this, since after sweet-spotting the ledge, we HAVE to perform an action before landing or be punished during lag. This is a big problem for us! Now, knowing this, there are a couple of measures we can take to avoid being punished for this character flaw.
- If you aren't in a hurry to grab the ledge (i.e. you aren't in danger of being ledge guarded, etc.) then don't sweet-spot the ledge! Simply up-b so that you will either land on the stage or float away from the ledge before grabbing it. This way, you won't induce RCO lag and won't be punished later for landing on the ground.
- If your opponent has been knocked away and you know that you have previously sweet-spotted the ledge with your up-b, JUMP AND FASTFALL IN PLACE. This may seem silly, but it will allow you to get rid of your RCO lag while you are safe! I can't tell you how many videos I've watched where I was sitting there talking to my computer, saying "You have RCO Lag" over and over, only to watch the Mario get trapped and killed by it later! Be aware!
- If you have to land and know you are about to have RCO Lag, try to mix up your landing as much as possible. Wavebounce Fireballs, save your second jump, go for a footstool as they try to punish, etc. These tools will help you survive!

Faster Movement Speed

In looking at the higher placing Mario players and comparing them to less successful of their plumber brethren, one thing I always notice is that the higher ranked Mario mains move about twice as fast as the other Mario players. This is most apparent when watching Boss play Mario. Flameleon is another great example. While studying them and trying to figure out just what it is that makes them seem so much faster, I believe I am able to make a short list of things that they do that we may not be doing. These skills should make your play speed increase significantly and I believe that we will do better as a community with a faster play style. Here is what I have noticed in the higher placing Mario's:

- More fast falling after aerials. Boss does this after nearly every back air. He does SH bair -> fast fall -> immediate other option. This makes Mario appear to be moving very quickly from one action into the next.

- Constant motion. Xero, Flame, and Boss all do this. They appear to constantly be moving. However, this has to be intelligent motion. Don't put yourself in dangerous positions or in range of punishment while moving. Your goal is to make it harder for your opponent to be able to space properly and for you to be looking for openings while remaining safe and well-spaced for your own attacks.

- Shield cancelling. Shield cancelling is where you are running and you tap shield to stop running. By doing this you give yourself more control at the end of a run animation, but you also make it harder for your opponent to predict where you are going to be. This can be a good mind game if you want to run and shield cancel back and forth while trying to catch an opponent's landings in order to make them unsure of where you are going to be and what option you are going to use.

- Buffering Moves. When you perform an action, you can begin inputting another action while that action is still occurring, and your next action will be performed as soon as possible. This is known as buffering, and can be very beneficial when trying to string moves together, or just getting that move to come out a couple frames faster. This can be the difference between getting that kill and not sometimes, so learn to utilize the buffer system in Brawl to your advantage! So how should we buffer without inputting extra moves? Well, for one example, when you want to land and immediately up smash, you can fast fall air dodge to ground and during the air dodge begin inputting up smash. As soon as you land, your air dodge will be cancelled and you will up smash immediately. There are many applications for buffering, so experiment and see what you can come up with on your own!
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Thanks man! I really appreciate the support.

By the way, fellow plumbers, if you are looking for an example of a Mario who has excellent spacing/zoning, look at a video of Xeroxen playing. He is really solid on this front, and his success with the character shows the benefits of that! Here is an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qE_PW4GFGLk

Every bair, every ftilt, are all hitting at the very tip of the hitbox. It's really quite impressive.

Also, if you are wanting to work on recognizing who has momentum during a match, watch youtube brawl videos (NOT JUST WITH MARIO) and analyze them while you watch. Ask yourself, "Who has control right now?" or "Who is doing more damage?" or "Who is getting more reads?" Then, go back in the video and try to find that point where the momentum shifted. Maybe one player realized one of the other players habits. Maybe they changed up their playstyle. As you become more effective at analyzing the situation, practice making that analysis DURING friendlies that you play. The goal is to be able to recognize situations where your opponent has momentum or where you have the opportunity to gain momentum and applying that knowledge so that you can pick the correct options and either keep from losing more ground or take control of the match.

For example, in this match:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj-fG1aoFZY&list=PLlIHVxA7UoL2l4QIkP0GSHP3vfjnhWyjZ

(I know it's double MK, but we can learn from every video, and it's a recent video of Ally vs. Seibrik so yeah it's good!)

Seibrik has momentum for a lot of the beginning of the first game, but Ally takes control of the match at the 3-minute mark. He does this by doing a fade-away fsmash on Seibrik's whiffed dash grab. Now, going back, there were two things Ally may have noticed, that I noticed (there could be more that I didn't see, since he IS Ally lol). One, Seibrik was using attacks in almost every situation (as opposed to grabs or feints) and two, at 2:49, when the two of them were about the same distance apart as they are at 3:00 when Ally read the dash grab, Seibrik did the exact same option without punishment. Ally may have noticed this, and when the situation was recreated ten seconds later, Ally stepped back so that the dash grab would miss and then punished the option that Seibrik had picked last time. After he made this read, he kept momentum by punishing the attacks that Seibrik threw out, because he could be certain Seibrik would attack and not try to grab him or fake him out.

That is just one example that I have seen recently. I am always watching the latest tournament videos to try to see how the metagame is evolving and to watch how top players play against other top players. I think that will help everyone improve!
 

T25XL

Smash Journeyman
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Nice Steep. U gotta wait till my ccv comes out, These combos are pretty unique to Mario, some are kind of like old tho, but they're good. Fyi, Some1 turned in a Uthrow combo Imm putting it in, lol
 

steep

Smash Lord
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T25XL awesome can't wait to see it. I've got a nice combo that I had today that I'll turn in soon.

Thanks Coolwhip. That means a lot to me, coming from my MW plumber brother.
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Thanks man! I appreciate your support and I look forward to hearing your insight after you've read into this thread more!
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Added an RCO Lag section to the list. Just thought of that today. Figured it was a good thing to know and remember!
 

DtJ XeroXen

The biggest fraud
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This thread is what's up. Spacing is like the most important thing you can do with Mario, among other fundamentals.

When I first started playing I literally couldn't make it out of pools for a solid year. After I started working on my spacing the NEXT tournament I went to was the first tournament I ended up making it out of pools at. Since then, my spacing has only improved both due to practice and knowledge, and since then I've more reliably been placing well and making it out of pools than I have been going 0-2 or 1-2 in bracket, and the benefits don't just extend to Mario or even Brawl. The knowledge I gained from learning to space moves properly translated to every character in every fighting game that I've ever played for the most part.

Fundamentals are literally the best thing to learn.
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Thanks XeroXen. Got my back. Listen to this guy! He is one of the best Mario's out there! Seriously!
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Not choking is hard just try to stay calm. My advice on getting the kill is being patient and do unexpected things. If your opponent is expecting you to go for the kill do things that don't kill at first. Ha Ha strange I know but you'd be surprised how well mixing in throws and things when they try to shield because they think you're going to smash works. It keeps your momentum going. And remember they have less options in the air than on the ground so getting a good up throw or something and knocking them into the air can set you up for that badly needed kill. Good luck!
 

steep

Smash Lord
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That's a great idea Coolwhip! I'll do that when I get some time. If you wanted to type anything up I can copy and paste stuff in as well.
 

steep

Smash Lord
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I must have been reading all the wrong threads then. All I've been seeing is people talking about the combos they've pulled off and the MU's they have trouble with. Feel free to point me to the thread that has already compiled this list and is doing this thread's job. My bad if I'm bringing up old stuff but I geniunely thought this could be a good topic to bring up with the Mario mains, as it is the biggest weakness that I see nowadays.

And since it's already been done, how about you let me know what I'm missing? Maybe fill in the blanks instead of shooting down my idea for trying to advance the meta of Mario?

Edit: added a buffering point to the moving faster section.
 

HeroMystic

Legacy of the Mario
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No, this thread is fine, and I completely agree with it. Closest thread we had to this was my Metagame Analysis thread way back when, but that's been outdated and I don't really play Brawl anymore.

Thing is the majority of Mario mains back in 2008-2010 have either switched mains or dropped the game completely, so there's only the new blood left on this board.

So all the threads that would reference this is pretty much dead anyway.
 

steep

Smash Lord
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That's unfortunate. Hey how is the scene in Texas? I might be moving to Austin soon. Maybe I'll get into the scene there. I'm sure it's a lot better than Indiana...
 

HeroMystic

Legacy of the Mario
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Texas has always been a hotspot for Brawl tournaments thanks to WHOBO. Metaknight is usually banned, and ironically I'm in one of the most active cities (San Antonio). If you want to get back into Brawl this is one of the best places to play at.
 

Xyro77

Unity Ruleset Committee Member
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Texas has always been a hotspot for Brawl tournaments thanks to WHOBO. Metaknight is usually banned

I not trying to be rude but that is highly incorrect.

MK has been banned at 1 of my WHOBOs. And ive done 4 WHOBOs.

MK has been banned at 5-6 of my HOBOs. And ive done 40 HOBOs.

Please dont spread misinformation about my series. I dont do that to you or anybody else.
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Sorry Xyro we weren't trying to spread misinformation. I was just wanting to know a little bit more about the scene in Texas before I move down there. Thank you for correcting us. Now we know.
 

steep

Smash Lord
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Stopped reading after the implication that hitting open air with a move is a mistake.
Good for you.

The concept of zoning and throwing out moves at nothing obviously works but throwing out moves and then hitting air and getting punished because you had bad spacing is a totally different story. I trusted the reader to be able to realize this distinction. Sorry I forget that common sense is in it of itself an oxymoron nowadays.

Also, our character is Mario. Some characters have a much safer chance of throwing out moves to open air. Such as Jigglypuff and Marth, which I see you have listed as your characters of choice in Melee and Brawl. We are talking about our character. Make sure your comments pertain to the character board that you are commenting on.
 
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