Investigation - Your character's hardest Match Up?

[Zelderu Maryoto]

Hi. This is an investigation that I made because of curiousity. I got the idea from SuSa, who made an investigation on what was each character's most important match up to learn, whom I PM'd and asked if I could do this investigation. I was allowed to.

Basically, the rules for this investigation is exactly the same as SuSa's, except for the fact that you, in this investigation, are allowed to vote in as many Character Boards as you want to.

I'm posting this investigation in every Character Board on Smashboards. The purpose of this investigation is to figure out what character is one character's hardest. You may discuss it in this thread before you vote.

When you vote, you simply say one particular character you find the hardest for the character in question. But it is your first vote that matters. Whenever I see people have voted in this thread, I edit and write the name of the person that voted and then the character the person voted for.

If you have any question, ask it.

OK, let's get started!

saviorslegacy - Ice Climbers
Judo777 - Ice Climbers
Tewx2 - Peach
-Mars- - Olimar

 

[saviorslegacy]

Ice Climbers IMO.

 

[Judo777]

Ice Climbers no question.

 

[Tewx2]

There's nothing hard about the ICs MU. If you aren't significantly better, or much more well versed in the MU than your opponent you're gonna lose.

Imo it's Peach. It's a ***** to learn the MU, but once you do she's so freeeeeeeeeee~

 

[-Mars-]

Olimar. I'm of the opinion that sheik has great counterpicks against Icies.

 

[Judo777]

There's nothing hard about the ICs MU. If you aren't significantly better, or much more well versed in the MU than your opponent you're gonna lose.

Imo it's Peach. It's a ***** to learn the MU, but once you do she's so freeeeeeeeeee~

wait thats the dumbest logic in the world! If you learn peach then shes free? then shes not a bad MU. IF you have to be much better than ur opponent to beat IC's then thats a bad MU.

I used to think olimar was bad but sheik has so many spots sheik put olimar in where olimar cant do a thing.

Its IC's no question

oh my bad is the question the most difficult but not the necessarily the worst? cause if so then yea id say olimar.

 

[Fuujin]

wait thats the dumbest logic in the world! If you learn peach then shes free? then shes not a bad MU. IF you have to be much better than ur opponent to beat IC's then thats a bad MU.

I used to think olimar was bad but sheik has so many spots sheik put olimar in where olimar cant do a thing.

Its IC's no question

oh my bad is the question the most difficult but not the necessarily the worst? cause if so then yea id say olimar.

Please do share these spots.

 

[Fuujin]

Olimar. I'm of the opinion that sheik has great counterpicks against Icies.

Lol everyone does.
And in competitive play those are stages like, brinstar and norfair.
Ice Climber mains use Meta knight and the like for those stages.

 

[-Mars-]

Lol everyone does.
And in competitive play those are stages like, brinstar and norfair.
Ice Climber mains use Meta knight and the like for those stages.

What does this have to do with anything? If you can force Icies to switch then obviously not the hardest MU. Derp da derp proved my point.

 

[phi1ny3]

So why has Pikachu not been brought up? He's got a deadly CG, plus his edgeguarding game's pretty solid against Sheik. Not saying he's definitely the worse MU, but there hasn't been real mention of him. Maybe I'm just a little naive in that aspect

I would have to say it matters little what CP you get against ICs if they can win round 1 handily against you. Not to say that isn't a valid point though, it's just that at that point it's a very "stage dependent" MU

Are we also to assume that we can use Zelda as a tool to help leverage a couple of these MUs? Because then ICs arguably might not be the hardest according to some. But if this is strictly by character, then ICs is my answer.

 

[Fuujin]

What does this have to do with anything? If you can force Icies to switch then obviously not the hardest MU. Derp da derp proved my point.

I'm saying the fact that you can force them to switch doesn't make them an easier match up.
You won't be playing them on your counter picks.
Those are invalid on Ice climbers because no one uses them there.
Basically that MU at those stages isn't going to happen, so I don't see how it helps make the MU any better.

 

[Fuujin]

I'm saying the fact that you can force them to switch doesn't make them an easier match up.
You won't be playing them on your counter picks.
Those are invalid on Ice climbers because no one uses them there.
Basically that MU at those stages isn't going to happen, so I don't see how it helps make the MU any better.

Also this

I would have to say it matters little what CP you get against ICs if they can win round 1 handily against you. Not to say that isn't a valid point though, it's just that at that point it's a very "stage dependent" MU

Fyi round one has to be played on a nuetral.
ICs vs Sheik on a nuetral is a loss on Sheiks part.
Even if you take them to Norfair and beat them, the last match is played on their field and there are only like 2 stages Ice climbers aren't willing to fight.
So by your logic having a guaranteed win against them 1 out of 3 matches makes them tolerable?

 

[-Mars-]

Who's to say i'm guaranteed to lose on the nuetral? it's difficult but if you play it right you can win.

Also were u the dood who messaged me last night the video of the black girls fighting at Wendy's? lol

For the record...my opinion on Sheiks worst matchups is:

1. Olimar
2. Icies
3. Lucario
4. Pikachu
5. GnW

MK gets honorable mention for being MK.

Jiggs and Kirby are weird but not as bad as people make them out to be, you just need to play differently.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Good God! Is there a match up war that no one has told me about?


ps Pika is only a threat because of CG's. If you can avoid being grabbed by the little mouse under 50% then you are good. The more percentage you have the shorter the CG.
3 things can help you achieve that.
1. Switch to Zelda
2. Eat projectiles
3. Play smart and pray that they aren't good at buffered chain grabs.
I should also mention that his grab range sucks.

 

[Judo777]

woah woah woah. First of all i demand clarifcation on are you asking mist difficult to play or worst MU?

Because honestly each of these has different answeres. Olimar is a difficult MU because of the precision required in spacing but Olimar is NOT EVEN CLOSE to sheiks worst MU. Me and Hilt who play all the freaking time are under the impression that the sheik olimar MU is NO WORSE than 6/4 and it almost leans more toward 55/45.

As far as MU's with zelda and sheik as a tool im telling you kirby is your pick. Kirby is THE ONLY CHARACTER in the game that has made me have to learn a completely new character (ie snake) to beat because zelda and sheik both appear to be rather useless against him. Kirby is pretty freaking hard especially when you live in the same area as YBM (who doesn't simply out talent me because i do pretty freaking well against his zss). Kirby is bad for sheik but not as bad as IC's.

Lucario is one of sheiks hardest MU's and IMO its the hardest one that is worth playing with sheik solo but its not that bad. Lucario has alot of stuff that hurts sheik but we get an edge by not racking him up too high unless you get him offstage. Offstage is really painful for lucario. And we can gimp him pretty soundly.

GW i dont think is bad at all tbh. I have never lost to a GW in tournament ever and i played quite a good number of GW's. GW the MU is so simple that i dont think its that bad. GW telegraphs his approaches so much that you can just needle all of them. GW has to jump to approach effectively and needles **** jumps. Just play cat and mouse the whole game and its not bad.

IC's is our worst MU im telling you. Sheik is terrible at seperating and is too slow in the air to effectively time them out. Not to mention they have priority on use in the air. They get solo IC chain grabs that even if one trips they can continue and hit you offstage and put you in situations where your recover options are completely eliminated. Nana grabbing the ledge ***** sheik so hard and IC's mixing up dtilt, spike, and fsmash option at the ledge combining with nana grabbing the ledge gives us no way to not die in like every situation.

The thing that sucks the worst is even without grabbing IC's give sheik trouble because their bairs and damage output is so high compared to sheik and because of sheik low knockback on her moves even if we hit them often 1 can still punish us. That MU is terrible. I would be very surprised if I couldn't beat most of the sheiks in the nation (myself included, if i could play my sheik with IC's i would **** me lol) with my IC's and i dont even really know how to cg.

 

[phi1ny3]

I see, good for clarification, I guess it seems pika isn't too bad. I still just go Lucario for that MU, since Pika has a tough time against him.

lol @ self ****, fantasize much Judo?

 

[Tewx2]

Yeah ICs is by far the worst MU, but I still feel like it's not the hardest. The MU itself is simple, it just ****ing sucks.

Lucario is tough, but its very doable. This past weekend I played vs Argent Stew in friendlies and we went really even, most of them his win. But we played in bracket and I won the set. I would like to point out that he had just woken up and was really tired the entire weekend. Game 1 he 2 stocked me so I would like to think he wasn't playing that bad, although game 2 I did 3 stock him which I mostly attribute to his tired and an accidental nair offstage on his last stock. Game 3 was really close and went to time on the last stock. That's how I feel the MU should be played. Get the stock lead, and then leave him at 0%. His kill potential in that state is worse than ours, because everything but aura sphere and fair are really avoidable due to our mobility. And even if he kills you, so what? The game is even again, and you know how, he's going to approach you. Of course the main issue with this is getting the first kill, and for this I've found that applying heavy pressure on the ledge really helps, his recovery is incredibly vulnerable to fair and nair so work fairs until he's within nair kill range. Another approach I take is bair/needle camping him on the stage. Stay outside the range of any of his ground approaches(lol grab) and short hop over his aura spheres with your back facing to him and every once in a while use needles to turn around and pelt him(mostly throw needles from far enough away that you can still shield an aura sphere, or when you catch him charging an aura sphere).

Kirby is horrible, I can't help you there.

GnW played well, is really frustrating and difficult. You have to camp him hard and get those punishes in.

Olimar- I have never taken a set off of L_Cancel but I also lost my set to Hilt, so I think it's fairly apparent that Judo is more proficient in the MU than I am. Though I would like to see how Judo vs L_Cancel would turn out. Idk how Judo plays it, but I just rush Olimar down and hope things happen. Also I'm going to start decaying my f-tilt on pikmin. Watch his line up carefully, it will give telegraph his next move slightly. Purple-any color-Blue/White can lead into purple pikmin toss-fair-grab which is like 23%. Don't let the whites get latched onto you, they have amazing DPS, and the same can be said about white pummels. Don't kill the reds because they are his least dangerous pikmin in the MU. They have strong aerials, but average-weak everything else. Blue pikmin are the second least fearsome at high prevents, but I would like to say the most dangerous at low percents. If you get grabbed at a high percent you will get either back or forward thrown, so DI accordingly. Purples do both of thosebwhile also adding in down or upthrow( I can't tell the difference in animation but it's gonna kill you off the top). Purple everything is dangerous, and the ****ers take 15% to kill. Yellow's have extended hitboxes so f-Smash off the stage is a strong humping move he has, it also has a hitboxes behind him when he performed it, and if you get double downsmashes by a purple and yellow it will always send you the opposite direction of one of them(I believe it to be the purple). So if you get the chance perform natural selection on reds, and at high percents let whites live as well. Blues, personally I would kill them because (assuming he has an equal chance at pulling all colors) you have a 2/5 chance of getting something worse, a 2/5 chance of getting something better, and a 1/5 chance of getting something of equal value. Also on certain stages there are different pikmin ratios so watch out for those. I don't know them off the top of my head, but I know he gets more purples on frigate, and more purples and blues on delfino.

Sheik goes to town on pikachu if u dont get chaimgrabbed. I've played 3 pikachus in tournament and 3 stocked them all. They weren't the cream of the crop but even friendlies with Anther we go last stock but majority are his win.

The ICs MU is desolate, having counterpick stages that beat ICs isn't an advantage, because that's generally true for all MUs. Beating ICs on a neutral is a very trying task, but it's not as free a win for ICs as it seems. Sheik can really **** up nana, and even with the sopo chaingrab, beats sopo ( I heard we can GR DACUS solo ICs?). It's definitely an incredibly easy, almost jokeworthy match for ICs but it's not completely impossible.

 

[choknater]

i GUESS i'd say ic's

 

[Judo777]

yea so my answers are these 3.

worst MU IC's
hardest MU olimar
worst MU with zelda also on board kirby

also what tewtew said is mostly true. I think if you ever get hit by any color pikmin with double dsmash hitbox you get hit the opposite direction you would think.

 

[peep_rivers]

well i know it isn't much and i stand by judo completely in all of this but i know that if you can get them to one climber we have an air release dacus on them its not much and i know it doesn't help the mu at all but hey i thought id put it in there

 

[Judo777]

well i know it isn't much and i stand by judo completely in all of this but i know that if you can get them to one climber we have an air release dacus on them its not much and i know it doesn't help the mu at all but hey i thought id put it in there

yea thats true. Its a nice free kill especially with how grab happy climbers are we can grab them instead. However if ur trying to time sopo out this wouldn't be as useful.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Tewtew, do you still think it is Peach?

 

[Blissard]

What's really funny is that the Olimars are discussing about how Sheik may be a potential disadvantage mu to us. Lol, I wish I was trolling...

 

[-Mars-]

woah woah woah. First of all i demand clarifcation on are you asking mist difficult to play or worst MU?

Because honestly each of these has different answeres. Olimar is a difficult MU because of the precision required in spacing but Olimar is NOT EVEN CLOSE to sheiks worst MU. Me and Hilt who play all the freaking time are under the impression that the sheik olimar MU is NO WORSE than 6/4 and it almost leans more toward 55/45.

As far as MU's with zelda and sheik as a tool im telling you kirby is your pick. Kirby is THE ONLY CHARACTER in the game that has made me have to learn a completely new character (ie snake) to beat because zelda and sheik both appear to be rather useless against him. Kirby is pretty freaking hard especially when you live in the same area as YBM (who doesn't simply out talent me because i do pretty freaking well against his zss). Kirby is bad for sheik but not as bad as IC's.

Lucario is one of sheiks hardest MU's and IMO its the hardest one that is worth playing with sheik solo but its not that bad. Lucario has alot of stuff that hurts sheik but we get an edge by not racking him up too high unless you get him offstage. Offstage is really painful for lucario. And we can gimp him pretty soundly.

GW i dont think is bad at all tbh. I have never lost to a GW in tournament ever and i played quite a good number of GW's. GW the MU is so simple that i dont think its that bad. GW telegraphs his approaches so much that you can just needle all of them. GW has to jump to approach effectively and needles **** jumps. Just play cat and mouse the whole game and its not bad.

IC's is our worst MU im telling you. Sheik is terrible at seperating and is too slow in the air to effectively time them out. Not to mention they have priority on use in the air. They get solo IC chain grabs that even if one trips they can continue and hit you offstage and put you in situations where your recover options are completely eliminated. Nana grabbing the ledge ***** sheik so hard and IC's mixing up dtilt, spike, and fsmash option at the ledge combining with nana grabbing the ledge gives us no way to not die in like every situation.

The thing that sucks the worst is even without grabbing IC's give sheik trouble because their bairs and damage output is so high compared to sheik and because of sheik low knockback on her moves even if we hit them often 1 can still punish us. That MU is terrible. I would be very surprised if I couldn't beat most of the sheiks in the nation (myself included, if i could play my sheik with IC's i would **** me lol) with my IC's and i dont even really know how to cg.

We have differing opinions on Sheik and her matchups it seems.

If everyone thinks Olimar isn't that hard then i must be playing the matchup wrong and i'll gve you that one.

Kirby just needs to be played very carefully and you need to powershield all of his bairs and maintain spacing at all times. I run away from Kirby a lot. Extreme focus when you recover as well...your second jump needs to be saved until the last possible moment.

Tew2 brought up an interesting strategy with leaving Lucario at 0 I hadn't ever thought of that before i'll have to look at that.

GnW perspective I would just throw Sheik up in the air and just **** her unlike the usual GnW strategy of approaching with his crappy aerials. This matchup is still bad if the GnW just understands he needs to get Sheik into the air/above and keep her there.

 

[Blissard]

Olimar's Pikmin pluck isn't equal. It goes about 25.6 25.6 25.6 12.8 10.3 regularly, but as Tewx2 said, there are about 30 other terrain types.

Also, the blue killthrows are uthrow and bthrow; blue fthrow and bthrow are also used for damage racking. Reds are 2nd strongest in knockback for both smashes and aerials (purples are first). Purple Uthrow is the killer throw. Olimar can use any color dthrow > usmash > uair, or dthrow > fair, at 0% (first one doesn't always work against lightweights). Also, reds, blues, and purples are all good for killing, but not yellow and white. Last, random, but a staled yellow usmash has like 30 hitstun frames.

Just to clarify :X

Edit: Why am I helping other character boards?

 

[Renki]

Edit: Why am I helping other character boards?

It makes you better in the long run when your opponent actually is aware of what you're able to do and adjusts accordingly.

Sheik's hardest/most difficult matchup?

Hmm, I guess I'd say ICs. It's not impossible like some like to think (80-20 is laughable imho.) I honestly had to sit down, cry a lot on the inside, and learn the matchup...and painfully so at that. It's rough, it's frustrating, but it's definitely doable. I didn't believe <3 when he told me that it's very possible to win(even if the IC player is good), but yeah, it's possible. Spacing and mixups are key. Mis-space once, you die. Be predictable, you die, lol.

On Pikachu:
Sadly, I don't get to regularly play with Esam as much as I'd like(if ever.) Pikachu is doable beyond the CG. Yeah, it's gay, but pikachu is in no way a hard-counter to Sheik. Sheik even has gay stuff on pikachu anyways, but I digress. Can be difficult? At times, sure. Not impossible at all though.

On Kirby:
Maybe the dearth of high-level Kirbys affects my opinion on this, but I don't see how Kirby is that hard. o_O I mean, yeah, our typical stuff doesn't really work all that well on him...but...how would kirby approach us...like...at all? In all seriousness, I could use a rundown on how the matchup works because due to Kirby's awful mobility around the board, I'm not sure why the matchup is supposedly so difficult.

GaW:
Is free. Not hard at all, lol. Just kills...really early. xD

Olimar:
Yeah, starting out, this matchup is stupid. As Judo mentioned, there's certain holes in Olimar's game that Sheik can exploit and it helps tons if you're aware of them(i.e.: Jab is ****.)

Peach:
I still think Peach is a really difficult matchup for Sheik. Doable, but very difficult. Her physics on her aerials(or her physics in general) just kind of laugh at Sheik.

Just my two cents o:

 

[riocosta123]

I think the key thing with the Olimar MU is that you have to be very quick in your decision making process because any lull in your thought process is going to put you in really bad positions. You have to be on his *** constantly or he will just put up his wall of BS and it's probably going to hurt a lot.

Remember, Olimar has no grab armor so you can just go ballistic with the pressure. Usmash OOS is 9 of 10 frames I think, which is pretty good, but you can avoid it with decent spacing.

Not knowing what to do in this MU really hurts more than any other MU, so that's why it seems so bad. Weruop ***** me the first time I played him.

 

[Judo777]

We have differing opinions on Sheik and her matchups it seems.

If everyone thinks Olimar isn't that hard then i must be playing the matchup wrong and i'll gve you that one.

Kirby just needs to be played very carefully and you need to powershield all of his bairs and maintain spacing at all times. I run away from Kirby a lot. Extreme focus when you recover as well...your second jump needs to be saved until the last possible moment.

Tew2 brought up an interesting strategy with leaving Lucario at 0 I hadn't ever thought of that before i'll have to look at that.

GnW perspective I would just throw Sheik up in the air and just **** her unlike the usual GnW strategy of approaching with his crappy aerials. This matchup is still bad if the GnW just understands he needs to get Sheik into the air/above and keep her there.

I am willing to believe that kirby isn't as bad as i think and I have a mental block but there is also a slight hint of differeing kirby levels to me because i have played kirbys from other regions and not had an issue with them. But there are 2 here YBM and Joey and both of them seem to be alot better than any of the other kirbys i have played. However im still willing to think kirby might be my mental block.

My only comment with gw is that sheik should be able to go offstage while high and work her way back to the stage not even from the ledge necessarily. I havent played many good GW's the only good one i have played recently is Today and she has told me she doesn't know the MU so you might be right. However i do think that sheik has alot of great tools vs GW to camp him and GW is slow no matter how you look at it.

However yes hilt and I have decided that the MU is only slightly in olimars favor for sheik, olimar. The thing with olimar is i always joke that olimar, IC's and diddy are not real character in brawl. They are mini games that are not brawl and therefore are very hard to learn cause they aren't normal matchups. Diddy kong is called (banana brawl) ic's are (divide and conquer) and olimar is (invade the fortress) lol. But once you sit down and learn the minigames they become less challenging. Too bad sheik sucks at seperating lol.

 

[ZomgNinjah!!!1]

There are 3 characters that I will always find impossible to fight against no matter who I main. They are Ice Climbers, Olimar, and Diddy Kong.

 

[Judo777]

There are 3 characters that I will always find impossible to fight against no matter who I main. They are Ice Climbers, Olimar, and Diddy Kong.

thats cause you have to play a game other than brawl with a brawl character sit down and learn to play the mini games.

 

[saviorslegacy]

BTW Mars, you are aware that we can Chain camp Oli.... right?
<3 and I tested Chain camping on everyone once. The only characters that we can do it to are CF, Oli, Jiggs, MK (front only), Sonic (under a platform) Wario (minus the wheels), Ike and Marth. I don't like doing it against Marth because of his Dolphin Slash. The few times that I have played Oli I spent most of the game with the Chain out. One poor fellow tried everything to hit me. He whistled into it and failed, he tried to get a blue Pikmin to pivot grab me and that failed, he tried throwing every color into the chain and that failed so he finally just started to try and get in and shield. He done this by air dodging into the ground and then buffering a shield. I hit him some times and didn't others. When I did fail he would try and grab. A few times he got me before I got him. Pretty sad though.


Viva el roto Sheik!

 

[Judo777]

BTW Mars, you are aware that we can Chain camp Oli.... right?
<3 and I tested Chain camping on everyone once. The only characters that we can do it to are CF, Oli, Jiggs, MK (front only), Sonic (under a platform) Wario (minus the wheels), Ike and Marth. I don't like doing it against Marth because of his Dolphin Slash. The few times that I have played Oli I spent most of the game with the Chain out. One poor fellow tried everything to hit me. He whistled into it and failed, he tried to get a blue Pikmin to pivot grab me and that failed, he tried throwing every color into the chain and that failed so he finally just started to try and get in and shield. He done this by air dodging into the ground and then buffering a shield. I hit him some times and didn't others. When I did fail he would try and grab. A few times he got me before I got him. Pretty sad though.


Viva el roto Sheik!

Uhhhh SL im not trying to crack down on you but i have told you on several occasions that chain camping oli, marth and ike is not possible. Olimars blue standing grab outranges chains max range. And even if it didnt he can run in just at our max range block 1 hit then shield grab us out of it since hitting with the chain at max range takes like 12 or so frames between hits.

Marth and Ike would be possible if they didnt have counter. They can drop in from below platform height and use counter through chain to hit us. Granted we can stop the chain and wait for counter to end but being forced into that mix up alone is evidence enough that it cant be safely done. They just have to ix up jumping fairs and counters and obviosly fair hits us if we dont swing at max range and counter beats us if we do.

 

[Fuujin]

Uhhhh SL im not trying to crack down on you but i have told you on several occasions that chain camping oli, marth and ike is not possible. Olimars blue standing grab outranges chains max range. And even if it didnt he can run in just at our max range block 1 hit then shield grab us out of it since hitting with the chain at max range takes like 12 or so frames between hits.

Marth and Ike would be possible if they didnt have counter. They can drop in from below platform height and use counter through chain to hit us. Granted we can stop the chain and wait for counter to end but being forced into that mix up alone is evidence enough that it cant be safely done. They just have to ix up jumping fairs and counters and obviosly fair hits us if we dont swing at max range and counter beats us if we do.

Don't purples go through the chain?

 

[Judo777]

Don't purples go through the chain?

no they dont

 

[saviorslegacy]

Uhhhh SL im not trying to crack down on you but i have told you on several occasions that chain camping oli, marth and ike is not possible. Olimars blue standing grab outranges chains max range. And even if it didnt he can run in just at our max range block 1 hit then shield grab us out of it since hitting with the chain at max range takes like 12 or so frames between hits.

Marth and Ike would be possible if they didnt have counter. They can drop in from below platform height and use counter through chain to hit us. Granted we can stop the chain and wait for counter to end but being forced into that mix up alone is evidence enough that it cant be safely done. They just have to ix up jumping fairs and counters and obviosly fair hits us if we dont swing at max range and counter beats us if we do.

Oh yeah I forgot about Counter. They can counter above you and by the time the hit box comes out they are right in your face.

As for Oli.... dude are you sure? I would test right now but people are using the TV. I am pretty sure that when the Chain is used it at maximum length it stops his blue Pikmin grab. I'll just have to see tomorrow.


Hey man refresh my memory. I mentioned using the Chain as a strong mix up against Snake and you said that Chain vs Snake was bad. I can't remember why said it was bad though.

 

[Judo777]

Oh yeah I forgot about Counter. They can counter above you and by the time the hit box comes out they are right in your face.

As for Oli.... dude are you sure? I would test right now but people are using the TV. I am pretty sure that when the Chain is used it at maximum length it stops his blue Pikmin grab. I'll just have to see tomorrow.


Hey man refresh my memory. I mentioned using the Chain as a strong mix up against Snake and you said that Chain vs Snake was bad. I can't remember why said it was bad though.

im fairly sure max range blue grab beats it. more importantly tho even if it doesn't hitting max range with chain multiple times requires a decent number of frames cause you have to bring the chain back and swing it again this is more than ample time for olimar to shield the first hit then blue grab you just at max range which, even if blue pikmin doesn't completely outrange it (tho i think it does) it has about the same so he can grab us out of it.\

Snakes grenades are what really ruin chain camping. If he pulls 1 at a distance and just smash throws several of them we have to react perfectly every time AND hit it at MAX range. Its a high risk situation for us with no risk for snake. Also since we have to hit it at MAX range he can mix up throwing 2 back to back and we cant hit both of them because of the back swing required between max range hits. For instance snake can A lob 1 grenade at us and throw the other 1 fast making them hit us close to the same time but not blowing each other up, or he can drop both pick 1 up throw it then instant throw the other right as he lands essentially throwing them consecutively at us. There are several tricks around this. We could do it safer of it didn't require almost perfect timing using the max range hitbox of chain.

 

[Tewx2]

Oh yeah I forgot about Counter. They can counter above you and by the time the hit box comes out they are right in your face.

As for Oli.... dude are you sure? I would test right now but people are using the TV. I am pretty sure that when the Chain is used it at maximum length it stops his blue Pikmin grab. I'll just have to see tomorrow.


Hey man refresh my memory. I mentioned using the Chain as a strong mix up against Snake and you said that Chain vs Snake was bad. I can't remember why said it was bad though.

I tested this with Fino at Apex. Blue grab outranges Chain.