Is Brawl faster than Melee without L Canceling and Wavedashing?

[Killer Tree]

????????????????????

 

[Xsyven]

No.

But I still got the same trancy feel that I get while playing Melee while playing Brawl. It's fun. It's Super Smash Bros.

 

[Chaosblade77]

Some things are noticeably slower in videos but not to the point that it bothers me. Once I get the game it might be another story... but it doesn't look bad compared to Melee's base speed.

 

[Doc Chronic]

i am satisfied with the speed of the game, i have observed it, and come to accept as the future of the series, therefore i have begun to adapt to it. everyone else will also eventually adapt to it

 

[Rikana]

Sonic is faster then wavedashing.

lol but really, it's slower paced than Melee in general without the L-cancelings and Wavedashings. But, people adapt so you won't find it slow when you get used to it. It's only slow when you compare it to Melee, which you shouldn't do since Brawl is a whole new game.

 

[Lord Viper]

The moves are some what faster, just air combat is slower than Melee. And if you say grabs are faster, that is true.

 

[C-Dizzle]

If it is slower, which it is SLIGHTLY, its not a problem at all. and it wont have an effect on me anyways. so im kinda glad.

 

[hunger!]

its slower because of the floatyness thats the only reason its slower

 

[InSaNiTy]

I'm glad they removed WD

 

[DrkR]

its slower because of the floatyness thats the only reason its slower

u are right..but is so fck1ng slower than melee..and i have played the game..everyone is too floaty..and..even SSB64 was faster than brawl...

 

[joeysmash]

u are right..but is so fck1ng slower than melee..and i have played the game..everyone is too floaty..and..even SSB64 was faster than brawl...

yes you and your 5 posts cab GTFH its not that much slower at all

 

[ynomrahnsguht]

I'm glad they removed WD

we know you are

 

[SFJake]

yes you and your 5 posts cab GTFH its not that much slower at all

You certainly look much smarter and "superior" to him after that post.

Yes its slower, but I don't find it slower than SSB64. I like the speed, though. Faster does not mean better.

 

[RickettsZ22]

I play mostly SSB and not much of Melee because i thought it was too fast, buts that because i was way to used to 64, i think if i played enough with melee it would have been fine cause i would have gotten used to it like i will with melee.

 

[Takuyo90]

heres the thing

ignoreing the wavedashing, l cancle....ect.
,
brawl is actualy faster. but as humans we are able to take melee faster than its suppose to be. because were messing with the animation time and all that.

 

[pesticide]

na brawl's slower than melee's base speed, mainly because of the floatiness in the air IMO
i'll just have to see for myself when i get the game in 3 days

 

[ronin_galiver]

The game doesn't come out in three days! It comes out in three days and 13 hours! Duh! e.e

 

[Micheloxx]

yes you and your 5 posts cab GTFH its not that much slower at all

hey crap, he is better than what y think.çhe does not write in forum because he just does notlike it, but having more postes than toher people dones not mean that he s bad. he is veeeerygood, believe me... çbut if u like it that way, i can tell u that ur a noob, ***, if i have more comments thatn u does it mean that i can beat u? no, i dont even know how u play.. He DarkR knows a lot about the game.

Brawl looks so slow in the videos, i have notplayed it jet, and i have toplay it to see how it is, a lot ofpro in usa say that they like more melee thanbrawl because of speed, and say that isnt that bad, iwanna play and see how it is, but i dont really think that is better than melee..

Insanity, u cant saay that man, uplayed melee?

 

[ronin_galiver]

>.> Of course there are going to be fans that just stick with melee. Well, you guys have fun with your speed and what not. I'm just going to enjoy the utter chaos of this game. Final Destination sucks. No items sucks. People who call others n00bs, suck. Your mom? She sucks too.

 

[tensa_zangetsu]

I'm glad they removed WD

WD made ssbm what it was the game is nothing without WD i play luigi and WD is the ONLY way i get around im going to have a hard time geting used to BRAWL.....i wish WD was still im braw that way ppl with real skills could owne that **** ^.^

 

[aho43]

wavedashing didn't make or break melee. brawl is pretty awesome even without WD.

fyi brawl is definitely slower than melee. wavedashing isn't what makes melee faster than brawl. melee is faster than brawl because you can do longer dash dances, dash faster, jump faster, and fastfall faster. brawl is still awesome tho. the speed doesn't hurt it at all. its not SOO slow that its unplayable. you get used to the speed pretty quickly.

 

[ronin_galiver]

Wavedashing may "make or break" the game who live and breath the "talent" of Smash. Oh sure, you're good with your tier or your main. But it's not like items or stage disasters were ever meant to be part of the game or anything. Yeah. I'm sure the game developers just put those things in there to piss off the people with real talent.

 

[aho43]

response to ronin_galiver. they also included the ability to turn items off and turn stages off.

here is an analogy for what people who whine about wavedashing and l-cancelling sound like to me:

US football in its current incarnation isn't what the creators had in mind when they created it. All this deep ball throwing and blitzing obviously wasn't something they had in mind. Does that mean that the way they play the game now is wrong? All those NFL pros working out everyday and taking supplements and being able to run faster than the average joe are cheating. They shouldn't be allowed to use their enhanced ability to make cuts and scrape through blocks and special blocking techniques.The everyday person should be able to play football too. Why can't we just play tag football professionally instead? Oh and lets play on ****ty fields with holes in them that break your ankles, thats a good idea too.

What the developers did or didn't intend doesn't matter. What matters is what the players do with a game. If the competitive scene deems certain stages unfit for play, and decides no items is the way to play for them, and if you're a person who doesn't play that way, who cares? Play the game you want to.

 

[Luz]

Hehe, this thread is turning into another pro vs. casual fight.

I'm interested in checking this out in depth, actually. I'd like to compare side-by-side tournaments in SSBM before WDing and L Cancelling were found and SSBB tournaments now, and see how much effort we've already put in the game to push it to its limits.

Compared to how we took Melee (slowly over the years), we've already ripped apart Brawl to try and figure out how everything works ^^

 

[Takuyo90]

Wavedashing may "make or break" the game who live and breath the "talent" of Smash. Oh sure, you're good with your tier or your main. But it's not like items or stage disasters were ever meant to be part of the game or anything. Yeah. I'm sure the game developers just put those things in there to piss off the people with real talent.

hmm


to add to that

people who think wave dashing is just for pros well hear this

people with "real talant" shouldnt need wave dashing. people with real talant can fight a good fight even without it. got it. so stop saying ooooh why did they take wavedashing out waaah now people with real talant cant do things.

 

[skuzzel]

It is slower.

Base speed and the lag from moves is worse.

Although you have to include Lag canceling in the discussion. LC was an intended part of the game.

In the same vein you should not bash brawl for not having R/L lag canceling, you should bash it for giving some moves such a terrible landing lag.

and yes, it deserves to be bashed for it, some moves have too much lag, they are unusable and make some characters unusable.

so yeah, its a slower game. Not as fun to watch in my opinion, that in and of itself has some sad implications.

 

[Mechageo]

US football in its current incarnation isn't what the creators had in mind when they created it. All this deep ball throwing and blitzing obviously wasn't something they had in mind. Does that mean that the way they play the game now is wrong? All those NFL pros working out everyday and taking supplements and being able to run faster than the average joe are cheating. They shouldn't be allowed to use their enhanced ability to make cuts and scrape through blocks and special blocking techniques.The everyday person should be able to play football too. Why can't we just play tag football professionally instead? Oh and lets play on ****ty fields with holes in them that break your ankles, thats a good idea too.

So, are items and stages the fields with holes in them that break your ankles?

 

[aho43]

im just exaggerating. if you're a half decent video gamer you can handle most stage hazards, but it adds a element of randomness that you don't want if you're in the middle of a tournament. just to clarify, i think brawl is awesome and dont care that l-cancelling and WDing are out . i just dislike when people seem to think that WDing and l-cancelling were bad things in melee. and just to be clear, i don't think you needed to wavedash or l-cancel in melee to be "good." if you didn't l-cancel you werent going to do well in tournaments, but wavedashing wasn't something that you HAD to have in your game, unless you played space animals. then you needed it.

if you couldn't wavedash or l-cancel in melee, you didn't have "tech" skill. which i doubt you can refute. you could certainly be smart and have good timing, but if you wanted to be the best at something, why not learn how to do everything that is available to you.

edit: as someone who has been a veteran of these boards and melee for the past several years. its is frustrating to see all these new people show up and start complaining about the way the melee tournament community has pushed the game to its limits. if you didn't play the game with the intention of placing well in tournaments, leave it alone.

its like if i showed up at someone else's house and told them that the way they were playing a game is wrong. its one thing to be like, "yea i didnt wavedash or l-cancel, and i liked items and hyrule." its another thing to be like, "all people who make use of these EXPLOITS and GLITCHES are defying what the developers intended for the game bla bla bla."

my point is, play how you wanna play, and let other people play how they want to play without insulting their philosphies about how they should play it.

 

[tacticslord]

Brawl is indeed slower to an extent but I think it's still a bit too early to decide if that's bad or good. I think the designers, when making a new smash, wanted to decrease the low-percentage to kill moves that were more prevalent in melee (falco's drill, marth's fair to dair combo, puff's rest, ect.) as well as try to avoid making certain combos neigh impossible to escape from and end up not so much a fight but a test in how accurately one can press a series of buttons in a succinct pattern given a certain rhythm (this is smash bros, not guitar hero). Logically to do this they first made the physics, or had a physics engine for use, that allowed characters overall to live longer to make zero to death combos harder as well as made characters more floaty to more easily escape combos.

The next step would be to enhance diminishing returns in an attempt to discourage the use of the same move or moves over and over (otherwise known as spamming). But this alone isn't enough to prevent all spamming, especially aerial spamming which is done mainly to combo thus making the lessened knock-back actually beneficial.

The last step was to prevent certain powerful or combo-happy aerials from being spammed as much but removing the one thing that made it possible to do them over and over without worry of counter attack, namely by removing l-canceling. All of these additions force players to no longer attack indiscriminately but instead to attack more efficiently. The kill moves are still there and the some combos can still be done, but missing the attacks by misreading your opponent (or, perhaps, being outread) is know much more punishable.

Added into the fact the shield grabbing has been improved and multiple air dodges have been implemented (as well as the fact that changing direction mid-air is no longer available) means that the entire play of the game is much more strategically oriented, having to outwit your opponent more often, rather than reflex oriented. Rather this is for better or worse only time will tell.

 

[YoshiBomb]

WDing was one of the things that determined the noobs form the non noobs. Sure people could win without it but it gave such a big advantage. I'm sad its gone I will miss it but I will still beat people without it by learning the new AdvTechs. Which will happen no matter how much people don't want it to.

This isn't directed at anyone

 

[Ryuker]

Just to comment on the slowness:
Certain chars have actually improved running speed and attack speed. However the game does have a different way of fastfalling so you will be spending more time in the air after a arial then in melee. However in terms of ground movement the game isn't that much slower. You just have less control of your dashes so you have to plan if you are going to dash in a direction ( you can turn at the very start but besides that you are forced to go the direction you chose ) instead of dash dancing back and forth like you did in melee.

Lag time also extremely varies. You can argue certain slow chars actually got less lag time on there moves after the hitboxes came out so they are pretty fast but other moves have extreme lag time. Ganon's fair for example just has a lot of lag so you have to space it really well. (It is extremely powerfull if it connects though). However his tilts got faster and more efficient and his forward B is quite fast.

In terms of shielding the game seems to have sped up actually. Shields take less time to pull out and less time to put down. Certain chars have laggy grabs but others really fast ones. Jump cancelling shields is still as fast as ever however certain chars take longer to get of the ground then others so if might seem slow. Side stepping depends per char( like everything else) but is fast aswell with most.

Also if you land depending on the height you fall from your getup animation varies in durarion ( chars bend through there knees a small bit when landing from shortjumps but a lot when landing from double jumps of full jumps). The difference is small but still noticable. Landing from airdodges is almost lagless so if you run of a platform and airdodge you can almost immidiatly move on the ground.

So yeah I don't think the game is that much slower. ( if you play it like melee it will be though). It's just the time you spent in the air that makes it look that way but it's still fastpaced. However lag time on moves has been changed and certain moves got slower ( this has to do with the intended playstyles for the characters.) There for if you plan to play a defensive char ( or one with a lot of counter moves) very offensive you might find it won't work aswell for you since the moves aren't designed or balanced that way. The same goes for spammy chars. There moves accompany a follow up playing style for there items. But the priority can be quite low for approaching ( so you wanna hit them with a projectile first).

 

[skuzzel]

bla bla bla semi-intelligent post from an intelligent person

I understand the underlining theme of what your saying, but you are wrong. Your implying that meta game skill relied heavily on being able to perform certain combos. That is wrong, I can do every combo available for fox, against a non skilled opponent I can chain grab 0-death with the ice climbers. Even so, I SUCK ROYALY AT SMASH BROTHERS. DI existed in melee, good players could avoid just about every combo. The game was ever steadily becoming about mind-games, strategy as you call it. In melee though, mind games were much faster, almost to the point that only a few people on the planet knew what was going on in a fight between top players.

The removal of lag canceling has changed nothing about the game in my opinion. As I see it, a lag canceled move was the normal move, if you did not L cancel your move your were adding lag to your move, not the other way around. As such, I am annoyed at the landing lag a lot of moves have in brawl, it is far too much. Adding that much lag from one game to the next just does not make sense to me.

Although that is just an opinion.

I will wait to see how a slower SSB plays out over time, at least it is true, a slower smash, with almost no true combos (which currently brawl is) is not a lot of fun to watch. It is unlikely that meta-game matches will catch my eye like they did in melee. Keeping this in mind it is hard for me to believe that brawl will ever achieve what Melee did in terms of entertainment. That is to say, I doubt it will ever become a main stage MLG title, I doubt matches will ever be televised, I doubt it will have the same staying power that Melee had/has (although what game really compares to melee in that way?).

HA, a big post, I will leave now.

 

[Dreminem]

From the videos I watch and watching my brother play without WDing and L-canceling, I think melee is still faster than brawl. I haven't played brawl yet though, but from the videos it looks slower. Not worse, just slower. Haven't decided if it will be as competitive yet because we haven't had enough time to find new techniques or use the characters to their full potential.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

u are right..but is so fck1ng slower than melee..and i have played the game..everyone is too floaty..and..even SSB64 was faster than brawl...

Everyone's like a freakin non wavedashing Melee Luigi now.

 

[Dark Sonic]

heres the thing

ignoreing the wavedashing, l cancle....ect.
,
brawl is actualy faster. but as humans we are able to take melee faster than its suppose to be because were messing with the animation time and all that.

First, don't dare tell us how the game was "supposed" to be. It is "supposed" to be played however we want

Second, we weren't messing with the animation time at all for wavedashing, and L-canceling was specifically programed into the game as a modified form of Z-canceling, so what are you smoking.

And my explination of why neither of those techniques were glitches.

Wavedashing is out because of the new airdodge physics. Wavedashing was done by jumping and then airdodging into the ground at an angle. Airdodges were designed to stop your aerial momentum and give you the new momentum from the airdodge in the direction that you held the control stick. This canceled the upwards momentum of the jump and gave you diagonal momentum towards the ground. You then landed with the special land fall animation (which was intentionally programmed into the game in the event that something like this happened) and your horizontal momentum from the airdodge would be maintained and slow down dependant on your character's traction (both aspects were also intentionally programmed into the game). Wavedashing was never a glith. A glitch is defined as an error in code that causes an unintended outcome. Although there is no way to determine whether wavedashing was intentional or not, there is still no error in the code. The physics engine is responding exactly how it was supposed to. You airdodge into the ground->your airdodge stops. You have momentum while landing->your momentum stays when you land.

L-canceling was also a specifically edited form of Z-canceling from SB64. The original SB64 website specifically tells you how to Z-cancel, proving that it was completely intentional. The fact that it was edited and included in melee shows that it was completely intentional in melee as well.

Just clearing that up because I'm tired of misinformed people calling them glitches.

So, yeah.

 

[Ryuker]

The removal of lag canceling has changed nothing about the game in my opinion. As I see it, a lag canceled move was the normal move, if you did not L cancel your move your were adding lag to your move, not the other way around. As such, I am annoyed at the landing lag a lot of moves have in brawl, it is far too much. Adding that much lag from one game to the next just does not make sense to me.

You have to ask yourself why it doesn't though. That much lag is to prevent shield presuring like it was in melee. As good as it was in melee it was indeed rendering a large part of the cast with a huge disadvantage. It is most likely that sakurai wanted to balance the game more and thus wanted to adjust this tactic. You can still shield presure in brawl just not like you would in melee. If you look at it from that point of view you could say the lag on the move doesn't matter that much unless your using a move that is supposed to be laggy cause of the huge knockback it has.

If you look at a combo point of view not much has changed since the moves have different lag times. Which means marth can still chain fairs like he did in melee, fox can still dair into utilt and fast chars still have a lot of comboes. Moves that you would use in melee to combo can still link into comboes in brawl. However if you intending to uses certain finishing moves in comboes then you might want to space it correctly so you can't be punished during the lag time. Knockback reduction also impacts comboes a lot so what might not combo might suddenly combo after a move is used a lot.

 

[Dark Sonic]

marth can still chain fairs like he did in melee

This statement is not true. The stun from Marth's fair (and many other characters' attacks actually) is not long enough to actually combo. They may be in range for the next fair to hit, but they can move before your lag is over from the fair, and thus can attack you first if they are fast enough. Most combos done in brawl will simply be your opponent not realizing that he can actually do something about it.

However if you intending to uses certain finishing moves in comboes then you might want to space it correctly so you can't be punished during the lag time. Knockback reduction also impacts comboes a lot so what might not combo might suddenly combo after a move is used a lot.

The entire point of combos was to land your finishers, but it seems to be easier to land finishers in brawl due to more defensive options, so I guess that point is moot.

 

[skuzzel]

You have to ask yourself why it doesn't though. That much lag is to prevent shield presuring like it was in melee. As good as it was in melee it was indeed rendering a large part of the cast with a huge disadvantage. It is most likely that sakurai wanted to balance the game more and thus wanted to adjust this tactic. You can still shield presure in brawl just not like you would in melee. If you look at it from that point of view you could say the lag on the move doesn't matter that much unless your using a move that is supposed to be laggy cause of the huge knockback it has.

If you look at a combo point of view not much has changed since the moves have different lag times. Which means marth can still chain fairs like he did in melee, fox can still dair into utilt and fast chars still have a lot of comboes. Moves that you would use in melee to combo can still link into comboes in brawl. However if you intending to uses certain finishing moves in comboes then you might want to space it correctly so you can't be punished during the lag time. Knockback reduction also impacts comboes a lot so what might not combo might suddenly combo after a move is used a lot.

I am trying to look at it from a combo point of view, as far as I can tell, "true" combos are very much a thing of the past. Of course the same was becoming true of melee in the metagame so meh.

We still have mind games.

I understand what you saying about shield pressuring though. I once saw a link fighting a fox, the link made the mistake of trying to shield.. the fox started in with a barrage of perfectly shuffled N-airs, the link had to choose to either take a kick to the face, roll left or right and take a kick to the face, or dodge then take a kick to the face.

Shielding should not be such that using it at any time during a match is a mistake, that breaks a fundamental law I think. Although, that does not explain it totally, there is a difference between increasing lag so that shield grabbing is still viable and totally nerfing combos as we know it.

 

[Micheloxx]

>.> Of course there are going to be fans that just stick with melee. Well, you guys have fun with your speed and what not. I'm just going to enjoy the utter chaos of this game. Final Destination sucks. No items sucks. People who call others n00bs, suck. Your mom? She sucks too.

Bro, wth r u talking? i mean, u dont have to talk right here u know, i did not called him noob, i said that if he thinks that because of having more posts tan somebady else means that he plays more than the other guy, then i do more than him, i used that like example.. But now i can say you are a noob in the pro scene, because of playing with items and all... Play with items is fun, but in the pro scene isnt.. And i wanna join the pro scene, and no, and i dont think my mom sucks, maybe she can kick ur *** too in this game, yeap, she lays very good... But otherthing is that, if urgonna fight with ur inmmature insults like insulting me or my mom, do it i really dont care, i just wanna tell u that ur the one that is doing bad to yourself beeing so inmmature and making the other people think that ur an imbecil.... U r so stop beeing it..

aho43 i really want to addapt to the speed of that game, i wanna play it and im scared of me dont likeing it.. I really pray for likeing that game xD.. Ur getting in the pro scene in the game aho?

 

[aho43]

personally i don't like the term pro. just sounds silly to me, because well its a video game. but anyways, i've been involved in the melee tournament scene for 3+ years. for pretty much the past 2 years ive been attending a melee tournament almost every weekend. i'm fortunate due to the location in which i live, Maryland/Virginia. right nearby we have some of the best smashers in the country Azen, Chillin, Chu, and all of Team Arlington. i plan attending Brawl tournies from the very beginning.