King Dedede's attacks very underwhelming?

[randomguy1235]

Sorry for contributing to the doom and gloom atmosphere around here, but this is something I've been bothered about for a long time. I co-main Ganondorf and D3 and have been accumulating other heavy characters (DK, Bowser, Bowser Jr, and Charizard) as secondaries for casual matches, but I've always felt the D3's attacks are quite weak in terms of damage output (especially considering their atrocious frame data and mediocre hitboxes). Should we rally our efforts to bring more awareness and hope for a new patch, or should we just make best with what we've got and forget about it?

 

[williamsga555]

His damage output is pretty decent, but his knockback is generally way undertuned compared to other heavies.

Off the top of my head, almost every attack does at least 10%. That's really good, but he still ends up killing way later than almost every other comparable character because his knockback values are only good on moves that are super unreliable.

To make things worse, his moves that are good in both categories are moves that tend to be over-staled because they're also his most reliable neutral tools (bair in particular is the biggest offender here).

He's in a bad spot, but personally I don't think damage output is what should be addressed. Frame data should come first, if we were to get improved, imo.

 

[Axel311]

Rally efforts to bring more awareness. Dedede needs buffs to move out of low tier. I do agree some moves have low damage for how horribly laggy they are. Like inhale.

I would agree with what was said above. More damage would be nice, but what he really needs is better frame data.

 

[DEX_]

Soul Train shouldn't this be merged with the patch request discussion?

 

[Soul Train]

Soul Train shouldn't this be merged with the patch request discussion?

Nah. This is actually a decently interesting conversation: D3's kill power compared to the other heavies. As long as we keep the discussion centered around this idea and less of "omg plz buff", the topic is good.

But to boost the discussion: with all the frame data and kill % analysis I've done on this character, I've long had some thoughts on D3 compared to the other heavyweights. To clarify, D3 alone can't safely close off stocks at kill %s (100-140%), and it's one of the character's biggest weaknesses.

Bowser/DK have killing throw combos, insanely strong tilts, and even normal throws strong enough to nicely finish off stocks at 150%+. Zard has a killthrow, and many options to make you think twice once you're anywhere past 120%+, like Rock Smash. Ganondorf actually has great tilts like Ftilt/Dtilt, both of which are relatively safe, fast, and kill at nicely low %s.

What's D3 have? Here's the kill %s for his throws:

• Fthrow: 266%
• Bthrow: 194%
• Dthrow: 220%
• Uthrow: 246%

You read that right. Our best killthrow only works at...194%. Ok, so what, no big deal there, lots of other characters don't have easy kill throws. Ganondorf, for example. But let's compare tilt kill %s:

• Ganondorf: Ftilt: 129%, Dtilt: 142%, Utilt: 42% (lol)
• King Dedede: Ftilt: 204%, Dtilt: 196%, Utilt: 151%

I won't even post the aerial attack data - it's very much the same. Almost all of Dorf's kit kills in that critical 100-120% range, while D3 has nothing comparable.

So what (viable) moves end stocks for D3 at kill %s? There are two. Bair, and Dsmash. Both of which are beaten by shield, and can be punished by everyone not called Luigi with a smash attack.

My point here: if I were to draw a heatmap of "here's the % ranges when each character can threaten your stock," all heavies would have a nicely uniform graph that gradually increases, then peaks around 120%. They're all big targets and susceptible to combos, but make up for that by being able to end your stock at lower percentages (100-130%) with relatively faster moves (Ftilts and such). Except D3 - who has a massive hole in his kill %s right in that critical kill % range.

Obviously I'm very aware this is a bit of apples and oranges - there are many more factors to bring up with character comparison, like recovery. But I think there's something here. I'm looking right now at all kill %s for the heavies, and it's pretty obvious that the fat penguin is lacking.

The obvious question: what can we do, what alternative solutions do we have? Several. But first I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this before talking that through.

 

[dean.]

Damage output itself I don't think is the main problem, each tilt does at least 10% and each aerial at least 12% but combined with other factors like hitbox size / frame data / mobility it's only OK. a 16% jab sounds great if you ignore it's a frame 10 jab that doesn't link into itself properly. 16% killing dash attack is sweet if it weren't frame 26 and leave us with no good options out of dash (poor dash speed meh dashgrab range no real good specials or rising aerials to use out of dash).

exceptions usmash and dsmash only do 14% (sweetspot) / 13% which is underwhelming and gives them not much use below kill %s. why dsmash when grab and bthrow does the same damage? every other heavy smash does 16% minimum

 

[williamsga555]

I mean, there's sour nair to uair right around 100%, but that's really finnicky depending on rage and how stale uair is...

Otherwise, no, I agree that his finishing power is very poor compared to most of the cast, let alone the other super-heavies. He has to finish through edgeguarding or his opponent making a mistake (or he waits until b-throw will kill...). Gordos help with both of those, but everyone knows that those aren't exactly reliable.

Bair and Dsmash are pretty great, and shouldn't be undersold. They're not perfect, but they do their jobs well (bair would be even better if we had some other reliable neutral tools, to keep it fresh...). The main issue with those being the finishers are as you said: they both lose to shield (especially Dsmash). D3's reward off of grabs is good but not threatening once dthrow followups go away, and he has no reliable means of breaking shields either (compare that to DK and Bowser, who both have the means to eat shields, and Ganon who has immense pushback on some of his more reliable tools). D3 does poor shield damage and poor shield pushback on almost everything.

So what do we do about it?

I think our best choice is making more use of up-throw at late percentages. It does okay damage for a throw and has no followups, but it places them above D3, which is excellent for his finishers. They either have to try to land away from him (his mobility is poor, but it's not that miserable on the ground. He should be able to get in range with the height uthrow sends people around 100%), contest him directly (uair and utilt are both difficult to contest, though neither are perfect. Airdodging into the ground should yield a dsmash), or retreat to the ledge (bad idea against D3, it's one of our main strengths).

It's not a confirm or anything, but the positional advantage of uthrow is pretty nice. Keeps bthrow fresh for if they eventually wind up in that range and does about as much as anything else would do (though f-throw on the ledge is great for us, of course, because it's a free edgeguarding scenario).

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

I often feel like King Dedede relies on Gimps and AirDodge reads to kills. A player with wonderous reflexes will be hard indeed

 

[MERPIS]

Why does fair kill at 160%?!
What? When you get straight up smacked in the face with a hammer with a head the size of MARIO, you only feel a slight tickle, and you get knocked back a few feet. But when you get your back ever so slightly touched by marth's fair. You're on the moon.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

Why does fair kill at 160%?!
What? When you get straight up smacked in the face with a hammer with a head the size of MARIO, you only feel a slight tickle, and you get knocked back a few feet. But when you get your back ever so slightly touched by marth's fair. You're on the moon.

Honestly, there should never be a Heavyweight that has problems killing unless there's compensation for it. DDD lacks that compensation for some reason..

 

[MERPIS]

Honestly, there should never be a Heavyweight that has problems killing unless there's compensation for it. DDD lacks that compensation for some reason..

There's only 2 (maybe 3??) Heavys that have kill troubles.
Dedede, Wario, and Bowser Jr
This is a huge problem. They're heavys, they should get really strong kill power.

 

[Eddie The Pacifist]

There's only 2 (maybe 3??) Heavys that have kill troubles.
Dedede, Wario, and Bowser Jr
This is a huge problem. They're heavys, they should get really strong kill power.

Well you're right with Bowser Jr, but Wario's air agility and incredible command grab is the compensation I was talking about.

 

[MERPIS]

Well you're right with Bowser Jr, but Wario's air agility and incredible command grab is the compensation I was talking about.

But he still has no reliable kill moves at that golden 100-130% range.