Meta Knights of Elibe: Discuss Roy Strategies and Technology Here

[DarkDeity15]

Welcome to the Roy metagame thread. The following quotes showcased here are chosen for their content in relation to our boy's metagame. However, please don't be offended if you aren't quoted. If your post doesn't make the OP, it's likely because the information is already included in some way, the information is nonsensical/irrelevant, or because I simply haven't gotten around to reading your post yet. Be aware that quotes will sometimes be edited in order to correct grammar errors, false information and to "cut out" information that is deemed unworthy of showcase on the OP. Your original thoughts and such however will always be left intact.

So without further ado, discuss!

Research & Development

-Dthrow & Fthrow Combos, Strings and Mix-ups:

Spoiler

Eh... It all depends on DI and percents. If your opponent DIs to escape the Up-B, follow them with an aerial. Sometimes it won't even combo and your opponent will air-dodge. Condition them to do this and charge an F-Smash to hit them. If they air-dodge and DI behind you, it can sometimes be easy to react to this. You should honestly only use this option as a mix-up, though. It's nice to catch people off-guard with it when you've been using other combos. Also, you can edit your post. c:

Yeah, it's true. Dthrow is only even usable against light weights to be honest. All of Roy's throws are affected by weight. Just try and dthrow into blazer a heavy guy at like 70+. It will always be airdodgeable. Fthrow is far safer, far more guaranteed, and arguably puts you in a more favorable position to keep pressure on your opponent.

The only time I really even use dthrow is for these specific scenarios
1. When I'm trying to get a kill with blazer. Vs lightweights and some middleweights, as long as your opponent doesn't DI in, you can create a 50/50 mixup with blazer, where it will hit them if they attack or try to double jump, but miss if airdodge. If you expect the airdodge, you can punish the AD with blazer, or another aerial. This is fairly similar to Sheik's 50/50 kill setup, the only difference is Roy stays on the ground instead of jumping up, and it doesn't work if they DI in. You can get them on a DI mixup if they want to DI away from your f throw. Condition them with f throw to do this.
2. At very low percents vs characters with sub-frame 5 aerials. If they don't have a fast, long reaching nair, dthrow can combo into jab, which you can setup for another grab with, or an fsmash or whatever. Works better on fast fallers for obvious reasons. I often do this with my first throw of the game, but after that I usually stick with f throw.

In just about every other circumstance I'll just fhtrow them and then nair (or DB if they are heavy/fall fast enough) since this is guaranteed regardless of DI. I won't use any other throw really unless I'm trying to mix my opponent up or if I'm doing something weird.

As a final note, obviously I will sometimes use up throw if I just can't get the kill and they're at +170%.

On For Glory a lot of people will air dodge, which I like to punish with a charged F-smash.

Depends completely upon the opponents fall speed. If they fall average or faster, I usually do a jab and then bait airdodges for fsmash or i'll go for a regrab. If they fall any slower than Mario though, I almost exclusively just do a tilt or up air. It's just too easy for them to get out of regrab setups etc.

Here's what I've noticed regarding Down Throw. These are very general.

Down Throw -> Up Tilt
Works at very low percents on most characters. I'd wager anything below 15-20%. On really heavy characters like Bowser, Ganon, etc. I've been able to add Up Smash to the end of this but I suspect that it's able to be air dodged.

Down Throw -> F Tilt
I've only noticed this work on really light characters. This is again at really low percents. I would guess that in some cases you could also go Down Throw to Jab on light characters as well but I've never tried it.

Down Throw -> Up Air
I think this works on most characters from 30-70%. Again, a very general feeling. I've played about 60 matches with Roy though and I feel like that range of percentages is pretty good.

Down Throw -> Up B
I do think this is a true combo if angled properly. Again, another general feeling here but I'd say this works on most characters from 80-120%. This can kill, especially if you're on top of a platform. EDIT: Should be noted that this is not grounded Up B, it's Down Throw -> Jump -> Up B.

I've had some success with downthrow -> nair at low-ish percents (Usually around 20-60, character dependant ofc), which seems to be safer than any of the other options at that percent. Is this a true combo, or is it just pretty likely to work?

Fthrow stuff:

Fthrow > DED and Fthrow > Nair (You can usually get another Nair) are also reliable combos.

(Sorry if anything I say has already been said by someone else)
Keep in mind Roy's weight dependent throws make the super heavyweights (Bowser, DK, Ganon, etc) immune to throw combos. On lighter characters like ZSS, d-throw to jab/uptilt can be true at 0%. On midweights (not sure about the heavyweights) and lighter down-throw to up-air is true and easy to do til 60's-80ish percent. Past that, I believe it's possible to continue doing this, just with double jump up-air, although it's a lot more specific.

-Combos, Strings ect. Outside of Throw Stuff:

Spoiler

Remember the 52% combo I posted here earlier? Well, I've been labbing the DI and found a few things. After Uair to Bair (which is always true), the opponent can choose to either DI up, down and/or away. As long as they don't DI away or down, you can get sweetspot Uair to connect. If they do DI down or down and away, you can easily get Nair 1 to confirm, which as you know opens up more follow-ups. The best thing about this is that the opponent's DI is very react-able since Bair will put people in lots of hitstun, giving you plenty of time to decide which follow up you want to go for.

The %s where these combos are possible on average is about 17 to 30%, varying on the character of course. At higher percentages, simply ending it with Fair after Uair > Bair is the best option though it is possible to get other follow-ups and extend the combo.

Something I forgot to mention before is that if you Uair to Fair on the ground onto a platform on Battlefield, you can immediately Uair and decide what you want to follow up with from there. If you start on the side platforms and land on the top platform of Battlefield though, you can Nair 1 frame perfectly after Uair to Fair as long as you buffer it. This will work at later %s though because Fair is slower than Bair, and sweeps downward instead of up. Edit: And oops, turns out I've already mentioned this lol.

I'm very inactive from Smashboards in favor of Discord, but I finally got around to labbing different things in a way I feel comfy approaching.

Normally, we use nair, uair, and sometimes fair as combo starters, but we often overlook bair and dair. Even as situational moves, they still have high-damage combos available, and you can start these up while still having safe spacing on dair/bair.

Here are examples of a lot of general bair/dair combo concepts:

Also, for the strings section, apparently jab-Fair works really well. Sethlon was using it against Karna's Shiek alot at the most recent Shockwave (47) I don't think it true combos, but if they airdodge you could probably get a dash attack or DED as a punish, or even an Usmash.

And this is probably common knowledge (hopefully too) but Roy's Bair will turn him around, allowing for mix-ups, though only a few. I think it could be used into Nair or fair probably.

I will probably edit this post soon with more stuff I think of.

Anyways I guess I'll start by posting some mostly reliable Combos/Strings outside of his throws(No rage):

Falling Uair > Utilt (Low-Mid %'s)
Falling Uair > Uair (Mid-High %'s)
Failling Uair > Bair (Mid %'s)

Dtilt > DED (Low-Mid %'s)

Fair > Fair(Sour) (Mid %'s Air/offstage only)

Jab > Fair (High %'s)
Jab > Blazer (Very strict % window, only seems to work around 120%-128% range)
Jab > Dtilt (Low-Mid %'s)
Jab > Ftilt (Low-Mid %'s)

FF Nair 1(Sweet) > Dsmash or Utilt (Kill setup)

I think that's mostly it outside of throw followups but if anyone has something else I may have missed please post it. I'll be sure to test with Rage later.

Kill Confirms:

Part 2 is done, covering aerial hit confirms to take stocks.

-Ledge Coverage:

Spoiler

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but is sitting in Shield --> OoS Blazer Roy's best option for ledge coverage? It seems to cover a lot of options:
>Normal Getup, shield grab or blazer
>Normal Getup --> shield, shield grab
>Ledge Attacks, shield grab or Blazer's super armor frames
>Ledge Drop Aerials, again shielded or tanked by Blazer's super armor
>Ledge Jumps
>Ledge Rolls, as a B-reversed Blazer will still catch them

The only option that would beat Shield --> OoS Blazer would be a Normal Getup --> Spotdodge

These are all great! I need to be using Blazer more.

Also, if they are low enough percent:
>Normal getup, jab into f-smash
>Ledge attack, block, jab, f-smash
Or despite percentage:
>Ledge attack, short hop nair (Blazer does more damage I believe, but this is nice to have as a mixup.)

Edit:
The jab into fsmash combo is also nice because if they happen to spot-dodge the first jab, you are likely going to be able to get him with another immediately afterwards. A bit less risky than blazer, because if they s-dodge blazer it could mean trouble.

Ledge trump to bair i think is one of the better trump options in the game; kills consistently

for whatever reason i figured out that grounded Blazer has more knockback than the aereal version.
at the center of FD grounded Blazer kills WFT at 106%, while the aereal version kills only at 151%.
and i also founded this interesting tech, idk if this could help:

Only Fsmash (the sweetspot mostly) and sourspot Dsmash will consistently hit all characters below the ledge. It kind of sucks, yeah I know. But hey, Fsmash. Up b and Dtilt will hit characters who peak above the ledge, like Olimar and Yoshi. Haven't been able to test dancing blade.

Tip dtilt, DED 1 and one of the hits of DED-down 4 (but only 1) will also hit below the ledge. One way to test is to go to Skyworld (the Kid Icarus stage where the ground floating on the clouds can be destroyed), and see which moves hit the destructible stage elements.

-Jab Locking:

Spoiler

Fthrow > Sourspot Bair can also lock people at low percents.

Yeah we've known of it since day 1. Fsmash sour locks at very low percents. This is more useful in application after a fair or bair on a platform that pratfalls your opponent though. Generally, bair is a better option for locking though, and honestly it IS easier to land then sour fsmash.. For example, fthrow into failed tech into bair sour to lock, then you can hit with a semi charged fsmash. See here from one of my own videos.

This doesn't have to start from a throw either, just from any untechable situation.

For the record, that guy is wrong, you can "combo" after a fsmash lock, but only quick stuff like a dash grab etc.

-Dance Trotting, Dash Dancing, Fox Trotting & Perfect Pivoting:

Spoiler

If someone could find some matches where Roy players consistently pull off dance trots and make good uses of them I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm not sure if I'm doing things right because I cannot pull off something like this:

I have the right inputs, but I think I'm not quick enough so it doesn't look like I'm dashing back and forth really fast like in the vid (kinda like dash dancing). If I may ask, what's the difference between that and normal dance trotting (extended dance dashing)? The latter's more beneficial?

Dance trotting, extended dash dancing, and foxtrot cancels are all different names for the same thing, at least as far as I understand it. Mixing foxtrots and dash dances to create interesting movement options. The vid by rush hour smash describes it pretty well as well.

I've been practicing this movement technique, and learning how to use it from my friends that main Falcon and Marth. My impression of it is as follows. Falcon gets more use out of dance trotting than us, thanks to his longer dash and his long-ranged grab. It's harder for us to use multiple trots in a row effectively (melee dash dance style), since our dash is much shorter, but dash in dash outs (that is, 1 dash away from your opponent, dash dance to turn around, and 1 dash into your opponent) or dash out dash ins (that is, 1 dash in towards your opponent, dash dance to turn around, and 1 dash away from your opponent) are really useful. It's really all about spacing, though. If you aren't careful, and focus too much on the technique and not enough on your spacing / opponent, you'll find youself eating a hard punish. If you make a mistake while practicing and get the skid animation, you can still pivot tilt or jump to cover the mistake.

I've been specifically practicing dash out dash in dance trot into nair (with forwards momentum, preferably short hop, fast fall) as a potential approach option, since the spacing is interesting imo, but I'm not at all a skilled player yet lol. Seems like it might be a good baiting tool once dance trots are effortless.

Most of my understanding of how to use the movement really comes from my Marth friends, and how they're implementing it, so while I don't have any footage to show you of Roy, here's one of a skilled Marth using the technique in an online tournament.

-Fair Properties:

Spoiler

Buffer fair as you short hop then buffer any action (usually its jump) and voila. [You can act before you reach the ground and avoid Fair's landing lag.]

This isn't exactly mind-blowing new technology. This is simply using platforms cleverly to unlock Roy's autocancel windows on two aerials. However, it has plenty of fundamental use and can help us optimize.

-Shield Pressure:

-Other Finds & Important Stuff:

Spoiler

LOL Ah well, I definitely don't think it's a matter of "looking or seeming cool" or styling, it really is a useful mechanic built intentionally into Roy's DED, specifically I think to give players who've committed to DED but hit shield a kind of mixup opportunity. Also have to keep in mind the affects of rage attack power on shieldstun, depending on the fight circumstances characters won't always be able to just grab or hit between DED strikes.

Just to make sure I'm not badly articulating what I mean by the "delayable timing" of DED 4 (and I guess for general informational purposes), if we put the timing of the inputs between each individual DED attack with dashes, you can execute it with different timings like so:

1-2-3-4
1-2-3---4

And here's a video to show it too:

The fact that DED 4 is still a valid input towards the end of DED 3's cooldown is what makes this a frame trap, a baiting technique allowing for different mixup opportunities.

Also this just came to mind, but of course if one has previously applied sufficient pressure beforehand (say with multiple jabs), shield break is also a real (though very rare) possibility.

Anyways, all in all I do get where you're coming from, DED on shield can in most cases can be punishable, but I just felt that saying that Roys will be "grabbed every time" or "will be punished every time" isn't necessarily true in ALL cases, even against cautious veterans, thanks to the various mechanics at play (whether it's delayable frame trap, rage/shieldstun, shield break, etc.), and just wanted to add my two cents on it.

So yeah, this is a thing:

Keep in mind that Roy doesn't always have to jab in order to kill with this, although he does if he's not close to whenever the platform stops moving. Fthrow to dash attack works as well if the opponent's % is too high for sweetspot Fsmash to connect. Forward throw to Fsmash by itself is guaranteed and will kill people at 50% off the sides of Smashville. I will probably make a better video later.

It's works on everyone, but depending on their weight and fall speed, some characters can escape better than others, but no one is completely safe. When it comes to chaining the jabs, you need to time it so that they fall a little bit before jabbing again (like Ryu's Utilt strings). Never just spam jabs, otherwise they will be able to escape much earlier or you'll hit them with the sour spot which will send them too far away to follow up with anything. If you want to follow up after the last jab with a grab to end the stock/combo with an Fthrow to Fsmash or dash attack, do it before jab starts to launch the opponent, otherwise it will become impossible to do so and you'll have to go for other options that have less killing potential. Like I said though, you can still just straight up go for the Fthrow into Fsmash/Dash attack at the right %s for the kill or as a simple damage racking combo so no one is safe at all times if they try to contest Roy on the platform. Also, successfully landing the jab string is fairly situational so going for the grab is almost always the better option.

Oh yeah, to add to the video showing the DED 4 delay timing since we're on the topic of DED, I'm not sure if this is a dumb thing to notice or has been discussed already or if it's already common knowledge, but depending on which direction of DED3 you choose (up, forward or down) Roy's spacing at the end will be completely different. Up moves Roy forward the farthest, forward moves him slightly shorter than that, and down actually keeps him very close to his starting point.

When doing DED 4 delay I find using the DED 3 down version to be the best where spacing is concerned.

Here is a video on it [Blazer stage spikes]:

Footstool jump true combos into reverse Blazer off stage.. Because why not?

Yep correct

i actually found it by accidentally footstooling someone offstage and up b-ing XD

 

[DarkDeity15]

Hidden for Later Development:

Spoiler

General Theories on How to play Roy Effectively:

-Approaching:

-Retreating:

-Killing:

-Defense:

-Spacing:

-Recovering:

-Gimping:

-Returning to the Stage from the edge:


Move Analysis & Theories on How to Use Them Effectively:

-Jab:

-Dtilt:

-Utilt:

-Ftilt:

-Grab:

-Dsmash:

-Usmash:

-Fsmash:

-Fair:

-Bair:

-Uair:

-Dair:

-Double Edge Dance:

-Blazer:

-Flare Blade:

-Counter:

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sorta a small adjustment, but shouldn't you add extended dash dancing to that spoiler?

Also, for the strings section, apparently jab-Fair works really well. Sethlon was using it against Karna's Shiek alot at the most recent Shockwave (47) I don't think it true combos, but if they airdodge you could probably get a dash attack or DED as a punish, or even an Usmash.

And this is probably common knowledge (hopefully too) but Roy's Bair will turn him around, allowing for mix-ups, though only a few. I think it could be used into Nair or fair probably.

I will probably edit this post soon with more stuff I think of.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Sorta a small adjustment, but shouldn't you add extended dash dancing to that spoiler?

Also, for the strings section, apparently jab-Fair works really well. Sethlon was using it against Karna's Shiek alot at the most recent Shockwave (47) I don't think it true combos, but if they airdodge you could probably get a dash attack or DED as a punish, or even an Usmash.

And this is probably common knowledge (hopefully too) but Roy's Bair will turn him around, allowing for mix-ups, though only a few. I think it could be used into Nair or fair probably.

I will probably edit this post soon with more stuff I think of.

What makes it different compared to what I already mentioned? Also, thanks for the information although that subject is specifically about stuff off of throws. I'll make a different subject section for that shortly.

Also, thanks @Gawain for being such a great poster. Your posts are very helpful in that they're extremely informative and cover a given topic very well. Please keep it up, and try to discuss anything metagame related here.

 

[Seraphim.]

Fthrow stuff:

Fthrow > DED and Fthrow > Nair (You can usually get another Nair) are also reliable combos.

 

[dy831532sssfjhhggb2224523]

I want you guys to test this. I've been looking for ways to jab to combo into stuff, and what Blazer can combo from at kill percents, so the both naturally collided.

Like I said in the description, certainly not always guaranteed, but it has use and it's worth looking into.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Jab to Up B being a true combo is well known already. Its just that the percent is way too tight and rage affects jab too much for it to be any reliable but I guess nothing is lost by testing it.

 

[Seraphim.]

Maybe we should pick a certain topic to discuss to get this thread going?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Maybe we should pick a certain topic to discuss to get this thread going?

Alright, so let's start with approaching. How do you approach with Roy?

 

[Seraphim.]

Well we already know how good Roy's Nair is for approaching, I've heard in other threads that Fair can be used if you think your opponent will be above you.

Empty jump > grab is Roy's most underused approach option imo it can be really good since most people expect Roy to only use Nair to get in, DED can be a decent option against people who spotdodge/roll and Dtilt can be used to apply pressure on shield.

How do you guys approach most of the time?

 

[ArikadoSD]

I dance trot or short hop fair then double jump until I find an opening with a nair or a grab. Take it from there.

 

[Chalice]

I use dance trotting (Like Captain Falcon) and empty retreating short hops to get closer. Once I'm at mid/close range I'll throw retreating fairs/nairs and look for grabs

 

[Croph]

If someone could find some matches where Roy players consistently pull off dance trots and make good uses of them I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm not sure if I'm doing things right because I cannot pull off something like this:

I have the right inputs, but I think I'm not quick enough so it doesn't look like I'm dashing back and forth really fast like in the vid (kinda like dash dancing). If I may ask, what's the difference between that and normal dance trotting (extended dance dashing)? The latter's more beneficial?

 

[Chalice]

If someone could find some matches where Roy players consistently pull off dance trots and make good uses of them I'd greatly appreciate it. I'm not sure if I'm doing things right because I cannot pull off something like this:

I have the right inputs, but I think I'm not quick enough so it doesn't look like I'm dashing back and forth really fast like in the vid (kinda like dash dancing). If I may ask, what's the difference between that and normal dance trotting (extended dance dashing)? The latter's more beneficial?

You can go to my youtube channel Juno 97. I pull off some consistent dance trotting that net me some nice punishes throughout each match.

 

[EnGarde]

Dance trotting, extended dash dancing, and foxtrot cancels are all different names for the same thing, at least as far as I understand it. Mixing foxtrots and dash dances to create interesting movement options. The vid by rush hour smash describes it pretty well as well.

I've been practicing this movement technique, and learning how to use it from my friends that main Falcon and Marth. My impression of it is as follows. Falcon gets more use out of dance trotting than us, thanks to his longer dash and his long-ranged grab. It's harder for us to use multiple trots in a row effectively (melee dash dance style), since our dash is much shorter, but dash in dash outs (that is, 1 dash away from your opponent, dash dance to turn around, and 1 dash into your opponent) or dash out dash ins (that is, 1 dash in towards your opponent, dash dance to turn around, and 1 dash away from your opponent) are really useful. It's really all about spacing, though. If you aren't careful, and focus too much on the technique and not enough on your spacing / opponent, you'll find youself eating a hard punish. If you make a mistake while practicing and get the skid animation, you can still pivot tilt or jump to cover the mistake.

I've been specifically practicing dash out dash in dance trot into nair (with forwards momentum, preferably short hop, fast fall) as a potential approach option, since the spacing is interesting imo, but I'm not at all a skilled player yet lol. Seems like it might be a good baiting tool once dance trots are effortless.

Most of my understanding of how to use the movement really comes from my Marth friends, and how they're implementing it, so while I don't have any footage to show you of Roy, here's one of a skilled Marth using the technique in an online tournament.

 

[Croph]

I think I got confused from the different names for dance trotting (why can't people stick to one name? lol). But thanks for the vids, slowing things down really helps to see what's going on more clearly.

That Marth player got a good amount of baits and openings from dance trotting. Like in one situation Marth got a grab and another baited a grab from Pika.

 

[ArikadoSD]

There are different names because multiple people posred vids about it under different names sadly

 

[DarkDeity15]

So what do you guys think about the shield changes?

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Would short hop fair into up b be a viable approach on platform stages?(or into another b move as a mix up, damage, pressure, etc)

 

[DarkDeity15]

Would short hop fair into up b be a viable approach on platform stages?(or into another b move as a mix up, damage, pressure, etc)

Not even close. If the Blazer is shielded, Roy's completely open for a hard punish (unless, for example, Roy goes past the opponent one of the lower platforms in Battlefield and lands on the top platform...maybe). However Fair into Blazer is a true combo at earlier/mid percentages.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Not even close. If the Blazer is shielded, Roy's completely open for a hard punish (unless, for example, Roy goes past the opponent one of the lower platforms in Battlefield and lands on the top platform...maybe). However Fair into Blazer is a true combo at earlier/mid percentages.

That's why I said on platform stages like move to another platform on bf if they shield or better yet on SV/TnC.s moving platform(s) and I guess jumping back if they shield may work too on those stages on FD it's probably pretty bad though

 

[Chalice]

So what do you guys think about the shield changes?

Down tilt just became great in destroying shields and because characters like pikachu will opt to be more aggressive that dash and shield all the time we can effectively wall people out with jabs tilts and aerials

At least that's what I'm seeing and what I believe

 

[DarkDeity15]

Down tilt just became great in destroying shields and because characters like pikachu will opt to be more aggressive that dash and shield all the time we can effectively wall people out with jabs tilts and aerials

At least that's what I'm seeing and what I believe

Yeah that definitely makes sense. Good OoS options are also still pretty important with this change (in fact, I'd say they're even more important than before), so I'm assuming jab, Ftilt, Utilt and grab are our best bets depending on how fast they come out, which I'd assume do so pretty quickly. Good to know that Roy is affected more positively by the shield changes than negatively. I'm interested to see where this change takes us in the metagame, but again, it's good to know for sure that Roy is still quite good. We'll need to change up our playstyles quite drastically though, which involves all characters, not just Roy.

 

[Seraphim.]

I played some sets of Smashladder earlier and I was throwing out Ftilt and Dtilt on people's shields they both seem safe now but it may need more testing, I haven't tried Jab and Utilt much.

I also heard from the Marth boards that Roy's and Marth's sourspots are less safe now...

 

[DarkDeity15]

I played some sets of Smashladder earlier and I was throwing out Ftilt and Dtilt on people's shields they both seem safe now but it may need more testing, I haven't tried Jab and Utilt much.

I also heard from the Marth boards that Roy's and Marth's sourspots are less safe now...

How does that make sense? They're strong, meaning they cause more shield stun, correct? Huh.

How do you guys think Roy's playstyle will change, generally?

I'll probably add in a "shield pressure" subject to the OP later. Feel free to talk about that as well.

Edit: Oh, and assuming Flare Blade is a very strong move with low end lag, doesn't this mean it's safe on shield? That'd be nuts. Sorry about all the questions. Currently I'm far away from my Wii U and won't be able to play for some time, so I can't test anything out for myself lol.

 

[Seraphim.]

Honestly this whole change has been confusing so I'll just wait until Roy's 1.1.1 Frame data drops to see what's safe and what's not.

I don't expect Roy to change as drastically as the likes of ZSS, Pikachu and Ryu from this patch though.

 

[EnGarde]

How does that make sense? They're strong, meaning they cause more shield stun, correct? Huh.

How do you guys think Roy's playstyle will change, generally?

I'll probably add in a "shield pressure" subject to the OP later. Feel free to talk about that as well.

Edit: Oh, and assuming Flare Blade is a very strong move with low end lag, doesn't this mean it's safe on shield? That'd be nuts. Sorry about all the questions. Currently I'm far away from my Wii U and won't be able to play for some time, so I can't test anything out for myself lol.

Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/shields-in-1-1-1.419235/

Quote of the relevant section: "Attacks with hit lag modifiers below 1.0 no longer receive safety bonuses, those above 1.0 (or 1.25 from 1.1.0 patch) are conversely safer than before."

Sourspots are less safe, sweetspots are more safe.

EDIT:

Yeah that definitely makes sense. Good OoS options are also still pretty important with this change (in fact, I'd say they're even more important than before), so I'm assuming jab, Ftilt, Utilt and grab are our best bets depending on how fast they come out, which I'd assume do so pretty quickly. Good to know that Roy is affected more positively by the shield changes than negatively. I'm interested to see where this change takes us in the metagame, but again, it's good to know for sure that Roy is still quite good. We'll need to change up our playstyles quite drastically though, which involves all characters, not just Roy.

don't forget jc up+b oos. Super armor on frames 4-10.

Source: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Roy

 

[DarkDeity15]

Oh, my bad then. For some reason I read "sweetspots" instead of sourspots. And yeah, Blazer is awesome.

 

[EnGarde]

I was tooling around the Marth boards when I noticed this post. (talking about the lack of safety bonus on sourspot hits)

"It hurts Roy more than Marth. I was honestly really really digging his potency while spacing well. Now it's best for him to space with his sweetspots, which is lame."
...
"As I said, this patch proportionally weakened both Marth and Roy, at least in contrast to Lucina (without lucina getting anything special over hyper majority of the cast). Marth on his non-spaced hits... it's not that bad. Roy on the other hand is just losing something I considered pretty important to him for actually being on par or ahead of Marth in viability. I guess Roy's mobility specs/other considerations could still result in it being so, but it's a lot less likely conisdering."

Do we have numbers on how much less safe our sourspot hits are? How would one go about obtaining numbers on this?

 

[Seraphim.]

I was tooling around the Marth boards when I noticed this post. (talking about the lack of safety bonus on sourspot hits)

"It hurts Roy more than Marth. I was honestly really really digging his potency while spacing well. Now it's best for him to space with his sweetspots, which is lame."
...
"As I said, this patch proportionally weakened both Marth and Roy, at least in contrast to Lucina (without lucina getting anything special over hyper majority of the cast). Marth on his non-spaced hits... it's not that bad. Roy on the other hand is just losing something I considered pretty important to him for actually being on par or ahead of Marth in viability. I guess Roy's mobility specs/other considerations could still result in it being so, but it's a lot less likely conisdering."

Do we have numbers on how much less safe our sourspot hits are? How would one go about obtaining numbers on this?

LordWilliam is currently going through Roy's 1.11 Frame data so we'll know about his sourspots soon.

 

[EnGarde]

Cross-posting this here. Apparently worries that his moves were less safe are wrong, just nair (2 frames less safe). Also posted this in the patch notes thread.

 

[Croph]

Sooo, gonna ask what's already been said: what's the general opinion on Roy this patch? I'm getting "he benefited from this patch" vibes from some, but others not so much. Will the changes majorly affect him? Or maybe it's a bit too early to tell.

 

[Seraphim.]

I haven't been able to play Roy in 1.11 much yet but going off the numbers he should be better with the changes, the only bad thing that happened was sourspot nair losing it's frame advantage from the looks of it.

 

[Smog Frog]

has anyone labbed shield pressure for our boy? it seems like he'd be able to pressure shields better with his sweetspots+frame data.

also i dont see these posted so might as well post them:

1st hit nair->dsmash is a kill confirm, as is 1st hit nair->utilt. neato stuff!

 

[Oblivion129]

Sweetspot being safer than sourspot makes more sense and I think is a buff. Sure you'll have to space closer but a dropped shield will get hit by the sweetspot which means more reward for pressuring shield, and you can still pressure shield out of grab range.

 

[Seraphim.]

Dtilt is most likely the safest way to get shield pressure. Looking at the data Fair seems like it should be pretty good to pressure with, if only the animation wasn't so awkward.

 

[EnGarde]

For shield break setups, just gonna leave this here. ~

dtilt > down DED (just a setup, not true, but still, dtilt is a pretty safe poke)

---

My thoughts on the shield stun changes are this. I can tell the difference sometimes, especially when I (or my opponent) shields a strong attack, but overall, I feel like I'm playing more the same overall, rather than playing differently. No more of Roy's moves have become truly "safe", and of his two save moves prior to the patch, 1 is slightly LESS safe (sourspot nair), though that loss is minimal (I can still use it in the same situations I did before and not get punished for it). So, yay?

---

Also, want to cross post this here. ^_^ Basically, a previously unremarked upon enginge change that primarily affects teams and FFAs. Also going to post this in the patch notes thread.

 

[Azazel]

For shield break setups, just gonna leave this here. ~

dtilt > down DED (just a setup, not true, but still, dtilt is a pretty safe poke)

Fair also does 11%, so I tried Sh fair > down DED (and it's beautiful)

while testing out shield break setups sometimes the down finisher will go through the opponent and whiff.
If you want to minimize the chance of this I'd do a Ded combination like this
>>>

this variation of DED minimizes roy's advances forward and uses the down finisher, perfect for shield breaking w/o accidentally passing through the opponent

 

[Opana]

Not sure where to post this but here's a small thing I noticed. At the apex of a short hop, if we do a rising double jump Dair, we can buffer a special on landing when he'd otherwise suffer lag. Could be an interesting bait option, idk.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Not sure where to post this but here's a small thing I noticed. At the apex of a short hop, if we do a rising double jump Dair, we can buffer a special on landing when he'd otherwise suffer lag. Could be an interesting bait option, idk.

This has been known for a while now. Though I don't think it's been mentioned until now. Thanks.