Life
Smash Hero
Hey all,
Those of you in the Slack group might remember that I went pretty hard for a few days trying to find new Squirtle stuff. I'm posting what I found here because Smashboards is a more permanent repository for information.
Unfortunately, I'm not the one that's going to be benefiting from this information.
A long string of setbacks has given me an opportunity to re-examine my character choices. As anyone else from my weekly can probably tell you, I play a lot of characters: Squirtle, Charizard, Marth, Samus, Zelda, Fox, Sonic, and Diddy Kong have all spent time in my hands, with even more on the way (I'm raising a Meta Knight, and I'll likely pick Pit back up if 3.6 is kind to him). My fundamentals have gotten pretty good from playing all those characters, and my appreciation of the game has also increased, but I think I'm rapidly approaching the point where I'd be better served by culling the weaker choices. I haven't decided exactly who's getting cut yet (again, that should probably wait until the patch drops), but having examined the general patterns of my play it seems unlikely Squirtle will survive.
This is not an indictment of Squirlte's power level, however. I believe the character isn't nearly as explored as he could be. This is simply a reflection on my playstyle. I think, sooner or later, an Axe or aMSa figure is going to come along and show the world what Squirtle can do. That player may not be me, but hopefully this information will help hold you guys over until then.
So without further ado...
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fthrow RHUS
One factor that could potentially boost Squirtle's power is optimizing our throw followups. Most Squirtle players already know that when the opponent DIs fthrow inward, Squirtle can generally follow up with an aerial pretty easily. So what happens when the opponent DIs out? On most characters, they're forced to tech. However, for the floatiest one-third of the cast, we can reach them with a RHUS before they touch the ground or even have the chance to double-jump. Best of all, it works at kill percents: while I don't have a chart showing when exactly RHUS starts true-comboing (and there's probably some slight variation possible anyway, since different opponents might DI at different angles), it almost always seems to work right around the time usmash starts killing: 90ish for the floatier and lighter characters, 120ish for the heavier ones (the only one I couldn't get to work at 120 was Charizard, and it worked fine slightly later).
Against DI down and away, fthrow RHUS can true combo at kill percents (90-120%) on the following characters:
I didn't test each one individually, so there may be inaccuracies. At some percents, a hydro-fthrow may be necessary, but not always. Be aware that a lot of the time you have to be near-frame perfect in order to get it to true combo, or else the opponent will be able to tech or jump out. And, of course, be wary of platforms: I tested on Final Destination, but an aware opponent might be able to DI to a platform and tech.
hydro uthrow uair
A few Squirtles have noted that hydro-uthrow into aqua jet is a successful kill setup in certain situations. In situations where the opponent is sent too high to fall for that, uthrow uair is an acceptable alternative.
You may wonder why it's worth looking into this when Squirtle already has a kill throw. However, dthrow is pretty weak as kill throws go, and more importantly it's dependent on stage positioning and your opponent's ability to recover. Vertical kills are more consistent than horizontal kills.
Remember that uthrow, unlike fthrow, is a weight-dependent animation, so this doesn't work on heavy floaties like Samus.
I was able to get uthrow uair to combo on the following characters on multiple DI angles (there are likely more, I didn't explore this one thoroughly because dthrow exists). Generally speaking, it's worth looking for on light and floaty characters, at percents where they are sent too high to lead into Aqua Jet:
(yes I know MK isn't floaty, shush)
hydro uthrow dropzone fair
I only tested this one on Fox, but it likely applies to Falco, Wolf, and Falcon just as well.
Under normal circumstances, uthrow followups on Fox do not work when he DIs away. He can always tech before we can reach him. (RIP chaingrabs.)
The gist of this combo is that if you can hydro uthrow a fast-faller such that they'll go offstage on DI away, and you can slide far enough forward to make up for the distance they'll gain (i.e. you aren't already at the ledge), you can reach them with a dropzone aerial (fair is easiest, nair is possible under more-strict circumstances) before they get out of hitstun.
If you're at just the right spacing, look for this combo against the following characters:
Percents and kill potential may vary. Consult your doctor before using hydro uthrow dropzone fair.
uthrow vs dthrow DI mixup
As we just established, against fastfallers, uthrow regrabs don't work when they DI away. You know what does work really well against DI away on these guys? Dthrow. At later percents, it puts them in a really rough recovery position unless they nail the DI.
So basically, you either let them DI in and uthrow so they eat a regrab, aqua jet, or upsmash, or you let them DI out and dthrow for the probable kill instead.
on techchasing
Techchasing is hard.
The problem with labbing out techchasing is that the possibilities vary dramatically based on where you are relative to the opponent's tech, and different characters are put into tech situations in different ways (some characters are forced to tech by uthrow, others aren't, etc.)
Wavedashing eats up fifteen frames of lag before we can act, but we don't get the full distance out of it by that time. Because of this, wavedashing is less good of a techchase option than you might think against characters with good techrolls like Fox and Sheik.
I did do a little bit of frame math, though (corroborated in game by letting Fox tech my uthrow). Here's how it goes:
All tech options grant 20 frames of invincibility. Neutral tech has six frames of vulnerable lag afterwards; techrolls have 20 (keep in mind that sometimes they're still traveling when the vulnerability starts, depending on the animation).
In a frame perfect, near-tech situation, provided the tech away distance is limited either by an edge or by a short techroll, the latest frame we can react on to get a regrab is roughly frame 18. This is assuming we can grab the tech behind without turning around (seems to work just fine on Fox, dunno about others).
However, there's a way to lengthen this time slightly: if we are already in regrab range against standing tech, we can input the jump on frame 17, and then jump cancel grab on frame 20 or input the direction+airdodge on frame 22, thus pushing the reaction back to as late as frame 20 (I may be off by a frame, they're easy to miscount). Against no tech in this situation, we can just SH aerial or even JC usmash.
That's a lot to keep on your mind, but maybe someone will get good enough to pull it off. After all, Sheiks have been talking about reaction techchasing Fox in Melee for some time now.
One thing I do want to talk about is uthrow to dsmash on Fox. In theory, dsmash should cover 3/4 of Fox's tech options if timed properly. In practice, like everything else that comes out of uthrow, it loses to DI away unless hydroplaned. HOWEVER (and while we've probably all been doing this for a while, thanks to mrfabulous for making me look into it frameways), starting at around 90%, we can get a 3/4 tech option coverage out of uthrow into wavedash forward dsmash, which leads into Aqua Jet unless the Fox DI's incorrectly.
For distant-tech situations, hydrograb might cover 3/4: the shellshift hitbox comes out on frames 9-12 of the turnaround animation (takes eight frames of running before we can shellshift, so that's frames 17-20 total), so if we're spaced in such a place where we can get this hit, we can also hydrograb the inwards tech, and hey, we could even cancel into RAR-wavedash to go after tech away, not that we'll get there in time but at least we'll stay up in the enemy's face.
Alright, last thing.
the wario matchup
Because screw that guy. He has our sideB, except it's a kill move and he can still jump out of it after 3.5.
I was going to do research on all of Squirtle's hardest matchups, but this is the only one I've gotten to.
Wario's dsmash is the bane of Squirtmen everywhere. It covers 3/4 of Squirtle's tech options and leads into a pretty easy sideB kill for Wario.
Luckily, there's a solution, but you have to be quick on the draw.
Hold down.
Against true CC, we have +16 frame advantage over Wario. That means that in a frame-perfect poorly-spaced world, we can literally hit him with any of our smash attacks (grab, tilts, or withdraw being more easily executed and still useful options).
Against ASDI down, we immediately hit the ground when struck by dsmash (think Charizard or Fox dthrow). Neutral tech in this situation gives us about a +6 or +7 frame advantage if you can nail it (I might have miscounted or something, not sure which it is), which means dtilt, ftilt, and possibly grab are all real options here.
Wario's bite is another real piece of work. It gives him a good anti-shield option from the air, but it also beats poor spacing, and as we all know proper Squirtle spacing is a real pain, especially on someone with Wario's mobility.
Good options to beat Bite if properly spaced include:
dtilt, ftilt, dsmash, second hit usmash, grab, bair, water gun, bubble
And of course, if you can react to the bite, getting out of range and whiff-punishing it is also really good.
Lastly, it's basically a gimmick, but waterfall OOS hits Wario out of Bite and dair pretty handily. (You may have to reverse it if he crosses up before the dair.)
Wario's dthrow is another pain. If you DI in (which is the direction Wario is facing, as dthrow sends behind him), he can get true combos out of it, but if he's not expecting that DI, it lets us jump out at around 60%. And at late percents it may be better than eating the raw sideB that's probably coming off the techchase.
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And I think that's where I left off.
Questions, corrections, requests?
Those of you in the Slack group might remember that I went pretty hard for a few days trying to find new Squirtle stuff. I'm posting what I found here because Smashboards is a more permanent repository for information.
Unfortunately, I'm not the one that's going to be benefiting from this information.
A long string of setbacks has given me an opportunity to re-examine my character choices. As anyone else from my weekly can probably tell you, I play a lot of characters: Squirtle, Charizard, Marth, Samus, Zelda, Fox, Sonic, and Diddy Kong have all spent time in my hands, with even more on the way (I'm raising a Meta Knight, and I'll likely pick Pit back up if 3.6 is kind to him). My fundamentals have gotten pretty good from playing all those characters, and my appreciation of the game has also increased, but I think I'm rapidly approaching the point where I'd be better served by culling the weaker choices. I haven't decided exactly who's getting cut yet (again, that should probably wait until the patch drops), but having examined the general patterns of my play it seems unlikely Squirtle will survive.
This is not an indictment of Squirlte's power level, however. I believe the character isn't nearly as explored as he could be. This is simply a reflection on my playstyle. I think, sooner or later, an Axe or aMSa figure is going to come along and show the world what Squirtle can do. That player may not be me, but hopefully this information will help hold you guys over until then.
So without further ado...
---------------------------------------------------------------
fthrow RHUS
One factor that could potentially boost Squirtle's power is optimizing our throw followups. Most Squirtle players already know that when the opponent DIs fthrow inward, Squirtle can generally follow up with an aerial pretty easily. So what happens when the opponent DIs out? On most characters, they're forced to tech. However, for the floatiest one-third of the cast, we can reach them with a RHUS before they touch the ground or even have the chance to double-jump. Best of all, it works at kill percents: while I don't have a chart showing when exactly RHUS starts true-comboing (and there's probably some slight variation possible anyway, since different opponents might DI at different angles), it almost always seems to work right around the time usmash starts killing: 90ish for the floatier and lighter characters, 120ish for the heavier ones (the only one I couldn't get to work at 120 was Charizard, and it worked fine slightly later).
Against DI down and away, fthrow RHUS can true combo at kill percents (90-120%) on the following characters:
I didn't test each one individually, so there may be inaccuracies. At some percents, a hydro-fthrow may be necessary, but not always. Be aware that a lot of the time you have to be near-frame perfect in order to get it to true combo, or else the opponent will be able to tech or jump out. And, of course, be wary of platforms: I tested on Final Destination, but an aware opponent might be able to DI to a platform and tech.
hydro uthrow uair
A few Squirtles have noted that hydro-uthrow into aqua jet is a successful kill setup in certain situations. In situations where the opponent is sent too high to fall for that, uthrow uair is an acceptable alternative.
You may wonder why it's worth looking into this when Squirtle already has a kill throw. However, dthrow is pretty weak as kill throws go, and more importantly it's dependent on stage positioning and your opponent's ability to recover. Vertical kills are more consistent than horizontal kills.
Remember that uthrow, unlike fthrow, is a weight-dependent animation, so this doesn't work on heavy floaties like Samus.
I was able to get uthrow uair to combo on the following characters on multiple DI angles (there are likely more, I didn't explore this one thoroughly because dthrow exists). Generally speaking, it's worth looking for on light and floaty characters, at percents where they are sent too high to lead into Aqua Jet:
(yes I know MK isn't floaty, shush)
hydro uthrow dropzone fair
I only tested this one on Fox, but it likely applies to Falco, Wolf, and Falcon just as well.
Under normal circumstances, uthrow followups on Fox do not work when he DIs away. He can always tech before we can reach him. (RIP chaingrabs.)
The gist of this combo is that if you can hydro uthrow a fast-faller such that they'll go offstage on DI away, and you can slide far enough forward to make up for the distance they'll gain (i.e. you aren't already at the ledge), you can reach them with a dropzone aerial (fair is easiest, nair is possible under more-strict circumstances) before they get out of hitstun.
If you're at just the right spacing, look for this combo against the following characters:
Percents and kill potential may vary. Consult your doctor before using hydro uthrow dropzone fair.
uthrow vs dthrow DI mixup
As we just established, against fastfallers, uthrow regrabs don't work when they DI away. You know what does work really well against DI away on these guys? Dthrow. At later percents, it puts them in a really rough recovery position unless they nail the DI.
So basically, you either let them DI in and uthrow so they eat a regrab, aqua jet, or upsmash, or you let them DI out and dthrow for the probable kill instead.
on techchasing
Techchasing is hard.
The problem with labbing out techchasing is that the possibilities vary dramatically based on where you are relative to the opponent's tech, and different characters are put into tech situations in different ways (some characters are forced to tech by uthrow, others aren't, etc.)
Wavedashing eats up fifteen frames of lag before we can act, but we don't get the full distance out of it by that time. Because of this, wavedashing is less good of a techchase option than you might think against characters with good techrolls like Fox and Sheik.
I did do a little bit of frame math, though (corroborated in game by letting Fox tech my uthrow). Here's how it goes:
All tech options grant 20 frames of invincibility. Neutral tech has six frames of vulnerable lag afterwards; techrolls have 20 (keep in mind that sometimes they're still traveling when the vulnerability starts, depending on the animation).
In a frame perfect, near-tech situation, provided the tech away distance is limited either by an edge or by a short techroll, the latest frame we can react on to get a regrab is roughly frame 18. This is assuming we can grab the tech behind without turning around (seems to work just fine on Fox, dunno about others).
However, there's a way to lengthen this time slightly: if we are already in regrab range against standing tech, we can input the jump on frame 17, and then jump cancel grab on frame 20 or input the direction+airdodge on frame 22, thus pushing the reaction back to as late as frame 20 (I may be off by a frame, they're easy to miscount). Against no tech in this situation, we can just SH aerial or even JC usmash.
That's a lot to keep on your mind, but maybe someone will get good enough to pull it off. After all, Sheiks have been talking about reaction techchasing Fox in Melee for some time now.
One thing I do want to talk about is uthrow to dsmash on Fox. In theory, dsmash should cover 3/4 of Fox's tech options if timed properly. In practice, like everything else that comes out of uthrow, it loses to DI away unless hydroplaned. HOWEVER (and while we've probably all been doing this for a while, thanks to mrfabulous for making me look into it frameways), starting at around 90%, we can get a 3/4 tech option coverage out of uthrow into wavedash forward dsmash, which leads into Aqua Jet unless the Fox DI's incorrectly.
For distant-tech situations, hydrograb might cover 3/4: the shellshift hitbox comes out on frames 9-12 of the turnaround animation (takes eight frames of running before we can shellshift, so that's frames 17-20 total), so if we're spaced in such a place where we can get this hit, we can also hydrograb the inwards tech, and hey, we could even cancel into RAR-wavedash to go after tech away, not that we'll get there in time but at least we'll stay up in the enemy's face.
Alright, last thing.
the wario matchupBecause screw that guy. He has our sideB, except it's a kill move and he can still jump out of it after 3.5.
I was going to do research on all of Squirtle's hardest matchups, but this is the only one I've gotten to.
Wario's dsmash is the bane of Squirtmen everywhere. It covers 3/4 of Squirtle's tech options and leads into a pretty easy sideB kill for Wario.
Luckily, there's a solution, but you have to be quick on the draw.
Hold down.
Against true CC, we have +16 frame advantage over Wario. That means that in a frame-perfect poorly-spaced world, we can literally hit him with any of our smash attacks (grab, tilts, or withdraw being more easily executed and still useful options).
Against ASDI down, we immediately hit the ground when struck by dsmash (think Charizard or Fox dthrow). Neutral tech in this situation gives us about a +6 or +7 frame advantage if you can nail it (I might have miscounted or something, not sure which it is), which means dtilt, ftilt, and possibly grab are all real options here.
Wario's bite is another real piece of work. It gives him a good anti-shield option from the air, but it also beats poor spacing, and as we all know proper Squirtle spacing is a real pain, especially on someone with Wario's mobility.
Good options to beat Bite if properly spaced include:
dtilt, ftilt, dsmash, second hit usmash, grab, bair, water gun, bubble
And of course, if you can react to the bite, getting out of range and whiff-punishing it is also really good.
Lastly, it's basically a gimmick, but waterfall OOS hits Wario out of Bite and dair pretty handily. (You may have to reverse it if he crosses up before the dair.)
Wario's dthrow is another pain. If you DI in (which is the direction Wario is facing, as dthrow sends behind him), he can get true combos out of it, but if he's not expecting that DI, it lets us jump out at around 60%. And at late percents it may be better than eating the raw sideB that's probably coming off the techchase.
---------------------------------------------------------------
And I think that's where I left off.
Questions, corrections, requests?
