phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Coming Soon!
Azen's take on the Meta Knight Matchup: Part Two! And Ksizzle's take on the Meta Knight Matchup!
Please read the rules if you aren't familiar with them yet by clicking here.
Azen, Part I:
azenzagenite is available (5:26:25 PM)
Azen Zagenite (4:43:59 PM):[Offline IM sent 43m ago] suppy
phi1ny3 (5:26:37 PM): Hi
phi1ny3 (5:26:51 PM): Sorry, brb
phi1ny3 (5:27:58 PM): back
Azen Zagenite (5:28:07 PM): lollz
phi1ny3 (5:28:26 PM): Sooo, sorry I didn't tell you what time or something like that
Azen Zagenite (5:28:35 PM): its coo
phi1ny3 (5:28:45 PM): So, are you ready?
Azen Zagenite (5:29:09 PM): sure
phi1ny3 (5:30:12 PM): So, we've all known what you've done with lucario, and you've done some great things, particularly against a relatively centralized game around MK. What do you think is a good mentality when going against MK as lucario?
phi1ny3 (5:31:59 PM): I think that implies I should reword it somehow lol
Azen Zagenite (5:32:47 PM): might take me a while sometimes
phi1ny3 (5:32:51 PM): I see
Azen Zagenite (5:34:10 PM): i try to go into mks with trying to make the least mistakes as possible and play carefully.
phi1ny3 (5:34:26 PM): Okay
phi1ny3 (5:35:25 PM): Here's a bit more of an easier question: Which stages do you CP MK? Which ones do you ban?
Azen Zagenite (5:37:15 PM): i just ban any of the gay stages, whatever your opponent usually likes or the most common gay one. i like cping neutral stages, its my favorite kind and i think lucario does better fighting straight up than playign around with the level.
phi1ny3 (5:38:16 PM): I see, so you don't like the idea of a more flashy mechanic/gimmick in the stage, and go for a more solid stage?
Azen Zagenite (5:39:03 PM): yeah, mk has the advantage over other chars in gayer stages anyway LOL no point in picking them against mk with any char really.
phi1ny3 (5:39:19 PM): Sorry, I'm gonna be eating, brb. In the meantime, there's another one I'd like you to answer.
Azen Zagenite (5:39:24 PM): itez
phi1ny3 (5:39:50 PM): What can we do about MK's ground game? All of his tilts come out fast than ours and our option to outrange it, Fsmash, can be punished with a power shield to dash grab.
phi1ny3 (5:40:15 PM): Most of these questions btw, are courtesy of SWF forums
Azen Zagenite (5:40:22 PM): lollz
phi1ny3 (5:46:11 PM): ?
Azen Zagenite (5:48:29 PM): i dunno if im even answering it right lolz
phi1ny3 (5:49:07 PM): This isn't school lol. If anything, in a rough sense of the word, you're teaching us lol
phi1ny3 (5:50:37 PM): no pressure
Azen Zagenite (5:51:39 PM): on the ground midrange i been trying to use more side tilt maybe he'll run into it. and you can just throw random auraballs and he'll be forced to shield or jump. or i sometimes just run up and grab. the only two mixups with a person on the ground in smash is attack and grab, so try to randomly grab sometimes. and if mk is beside you i like to use tilts or neutral a's to some tilt. and i also like to do the usual short jump fair into something, dair/bair/nair/airdodge/breversal and just try using a different one each time or the one that they dont punish.
phi1ny3 (5:54:45 PM): So you generally prefer to prevent rather than protect is what I'm getting at least.
Azen Zagenite (5:55:28 PM): whats the difference
phi1ny3 (5:56:40 PM): One is trying to head on defend from an attack (such as MK ftilt), while the other sounds more like indirectly pressuring to try to make it more favorable
phi1ny3 (5:57:29 PM): Then again, I might be putting words in your mouth
Azen Zagenite (5:58:29 PM): i liek to throw out moves where i think they might go, but yet do it safely enough that there isn't much chance of consequence. i guess that is prevent, but it takes a lot of prediction of typical mk styles + the individual's style.
phi1ny3 (5:58:41 PM): I see
phi1ny3 (5:59:52 PM): Azen, I might be overgeneralizing, but I can't stress enough how patient your playstyle is, even in Melee, people always commented on you always being really, really patient in finding an opening.
Azen Zagenite (6:00:53 PM): yeah playing carefully is good, basically spacing constantly
Azen Zagenite (6:01:27 PM): its different than camping, camping is just running away while spacing is staying near your opponent yet out of his attack ranges
phi1ny3 (6:02:08 PM): Anywho, everyone jokes that you <3 fsmash too much for your own good (jk fsmash is never too good). So in the MK MU, when do you think you should be using fsmash to be more successful with it?
Azen Zagenite (6:07:50 PM): loll fsmash is ****. its best to do when they're not on the ground, like if they're on the air coming to the ground or hanging on the edge. and just time for that 2 frame opening when they land. if mk is on the ground its harder to use it since mk can easily punish, but not every mk knows how to punish it everytime probably. and always try to space as much as you can especially since you need every distance if anyone blocks it.
phi1ny3 (6:09:11 PM): Speaking of **** moves, MK dair is pretty scary. What do you do against MK dair camping?
Azen Zagenite (6:16:41 PM): i try to get a uair in there somehow, try to see his jumping patterns and throw one up there. bair good too. and i try to powershield as much aerials in general as i can, the little time saved can get you a grab or something even if they space it far. and some mks, after finishing a round of dairs, like to fastfall airdodge really close so that its ambiguous which side he'll end up, i just do utilt or dsmash to cover both options at the same time especially since my reaction speed is slow i usually always choose the easier option. and some mks also like to tornado on your head after their dairs, only thing to do is roll or block high
phi1ny3 (6:17:51 PM): Well, that'll have to be it for now. Good job with the interview, I'll probably have to ask the other questions probably sometime later this week. Thank you again for your time
I had to cut it because my Sunday commitments were kind of spread out far and interviewing is a long process, so I didn't want to feel like I'm rushing him lol.
Azen: Part II
How do you recover and get back in one piece? Do you like to recover high or low against MK? Do you prefer to save their jump at all costs, and what do you usually get punished for doing while trying to recover off the map?
- As much as I can I try to DI everything high (towards+up) so you get as much space needed to come back. The lower you are the less options there are in escaping mk. I recover high or low depending on what the mk is doing, mk has options for both situations so it just comes down to guessing what he's gonna do or doing whatever the mk player isn't good against. I usually always save my jump unless I'm at a high percent then it seems like jumping helps slow down the momentum, and after that if you di'd good you should be very high to have lots of room to come back. Don't be too afraid to fair/uair/bair an mk while coming back, dair isn't the only thing there is, just make sure to be prepared to DI at all times. I usually use the cstick to aerial so the joystick can be kept ready to DI. If after all that I'm forced to up+b, then there's really nothing to do. Best case scenario is mk edgehogging and getting a free hit when lucario lands on the stage. I think his up+b is the second worst in the whole game, so I rarely try relying on it.
What will a metaknight do if the tables get turned and he's losing?
- spam tornado or up+b lolll. i try to stay on the ground more if they're spamming those. not really much to do against tornado from the air, dair rarely beats it for me. charging up aurasphere and rolling around is good. and most mks use shield before up+bing, so I try grabbing more. and shield up+b beats all of lucario's aerials so its not very safe to aerial too much. sometimes i'll just empty jump into a grab.
whats the safest way to score a kill?
- i usually get my kills with fsmash/aurasphere/uair/bair. uair and bair are very good to use for edge guards or if he's above trying to dair camp. uair is pretty strong against mk since he's a little light. best way to get an fsmash off is usually when mk is trying to land or any character, abuse that 8 frame hitbox or whatever it is to hit the 2 frame landing lag. aurasphere is good to throw out in edgeguards when you predict where the mk will go, but it can also be used like the fsmash with hitting the landing lag. its especially useful if you know someone will land somewhere for sure, no jumps or up-bs left, just have to practice timing the shot to get there at the right moment.
What should a Lucario look for in an MK's pattern?
- i dunno, most patterns differ from player to player. i guess dair camping could be a pattern. countering a pattern is up to the player to realize what it is. I'm not very good with memorization or reaction time though, so i have trouble countering attacks on the spot or remembering what the opponent did the last time in a certain situation. To help make up for that i try to just do different stuff all the time. Patterns work best if you do the same thing over and over again, so if you utilize all the options then patterns will be less effective. playing safe with constant spacing also cuts off a lot of danger because there is little risk with spacing attacks. it doesn't mean camping, i like to be aggressive but i always try to remember to space everything I do, which means dont just mindlessly attack as if it were Melee lolz. using cstick for aerials can save the joystick for spacing/di
In terms of map control, what parts of the map do you like to push MK's into regarding spacing and platforms?
- not really any map control i do or whatever, i mostly only play on neutrals anyway. can try timing an aurasphere if they try to escape to a platform. on gay stages try to be patient and not go after mk in a disadvantageous spot.
Ksizzle
phi1ny3 (12:58:33 PM): Sooo, want me to start the questions?
KelvinTooGood (12:58:37 PM): sure
phi1ny3 (12:58:43 PM): These are from SWF mind you
phi1ny3 (12:58:47 PM): So
KelvinTooGood (12:58:53 PM): okie doke
phi1ny3 (12:58:56 PM): What do you think is a good mentality when going against MK as lucario?
KelvinTooGood (1:00:31 PM): Go into the match fairly confident since its not so much of a **** matchup for MK and most Mk's don't know the matchup at all. You should also go in trying to prove something like Lucario can definately take MK without a big problem unlike some people may think. Just go in confident and prove people wrong.
phi1ny3 (1:01:41 PM): As Lucario, which stages do you CP MK? Which ones do you ban?
phi1ny3 (1:01:56 PM): Or I should say, which ones do you recommend?
KelvinTooGood (1:05:10 PM): If they dont ban FD, jump on that immediately. Alot of people dont know this but obviously one of lucarios best stages is yoshis. DO NOT GO HERE VS MK. hes better than you here in this particular matchup. you'll be decimated. back on topic, good counterpicks are FD, pkmn1 and smashville. counterpicks lucario should avoid are rainbow pretty much. id say brinstar too cuz its gay and im sure you dont want luck absed factors happening in the match like getting gayed by the acid and stuff but lucario can abuse the stage as well. I would personally counter fd and ban brinstar
KelvinTooGood is away (1:06:19 PM)
home. cleaning room then interview at 4. NO ONE IM ME AFTER 4. PLEASE.
KelvinTooGood (1:06:49 PM): im still here lol i just put away so no one else bothers
phi1ny3 (1:07:02 PM): What can we do about MK's ground game? All of his tilts come out fast than ours and our option to outrange it, Fsmash, can be punished with a power shield to dash grab.
phi1ny3 (1:07:24 PM): I really want you to answer the last comment because I think I know what the answer is to it
phi1ny3 (1:07:33 PM): And I'm sure you do too
KelvinTooGood (1:07:38 PM): the thing with that is
KelvinTooGood (1:07:43 PM): it should not be a problem at all
KelvinTooGood (1:07:47 PM): and the reason for that is
KelvinTooGood (1:07:53 PM): you decide when the f smash releases
phi1ny3 (1:07:59 PM): Yup
KelvinTooGood (1:08:24 PM): and if they dont power shield , you can re pivot f smash or retreat and camp or something
KelvinTooGood (1:08:28 PM): but about mk's ground game
KelvinTooGood (1:08:43 PM): the moves lucario players should fear the most are f tilt, and grabs
KelvinTooGood (1:09:48 PM): shielding the f tilt is really your only option here. if youre quick enough, get a throw in after that f tilt combo and remember his habits youve experienced so far. thats why i do.
KelvinTooGood (1:10:03 PM): a very good mindgame azen kinda discovered is this
KelvinTooGood (1:10:21 PM): most mk players aporach by dashing and immediately shielding in front of you while ur charging your AS
KelvinTooGood (1:10:37 PM): when this happens, cancel the AS and dash grab. it works every time XD
KelvinTooGood (1:10:43 PM): if they start catching on mix it up
phi1ny3 (1:11:21 PM): Man I should've interviewed you first lol, Azen has a tendency to be "vague"
KelvinTooGood (1:12:01 PM): to deal with mk's grabs : if he down throws, DI diagonal down and away and air dodge. this way they cant follow up and you can even have the first move as if he tries to dash grab you, you can jab combo him or grand him first, etc
KelvinTooGood (1:12:05 PM): there are many options
KelvinTooGood (1:12:30 PM): just be careful about f tilt and grabs at low percent, d smash at high
phi1ny3 (1:12:38 PM): "grand him first"?
KelvinTooGood (1:12:47 PM): grab*
KelvinTooGood (1:12:49 PM): my bad lol
KelvinTooGood (1:13:07 PM): grounded up b. watch out for that too. thats punishable tho
KelvinTooGood (1:13:17 PM): if u shield
phi1ny3 (1:13:23 PM): What are the best ways to deal with SL?
phi1ny3 (1:13:34 PM): Like in the air as well?
KelvinTooGood (1:15:18 PM): ok. everyone needs to pay attention when i say this. if you have a jump left and are returning back to the stage, when you use it, air dodge at the exact same time. they can very quicly aerial up b and gimp you. ive done it alot to many lucario players and i made zucco drop that dumb habit. if you get punished like that, coming back to the stage will be tough depending on the MK player
phi1ny3 (1:16:16 PM): Wait what habit is incorrect?
KelvinTooGood (1:17:22 PM): i palyed zucco in tourney and just about half of the kills were aeriel up b gimps. i read him through the match and saw that whenever hed have one jump when returning to the stage at mid level, hed use it without air dodging
KelvinTooGood (1:17:33 PM): so i would surprise up b with mk and gimp him
KelvinTooGood (1:17:49 PM): i mean its not necessarily a bad habit
phi1ny3 (1:17:51 PM): Oh
KelvinTooGood (1:17:52 PM): cuz everyone does it
KelvinTooGood (1:17:58 PM): but if you start getting punished
KelvinTooGood (1:18:01 PM): change it up immediately
phi1ny3 (1:18:10 PM): Yeah I learned that from Havok
KelvinTooGood (1:18:17 PM): haha
KelvinTooGood (1:18:59 PM): grounded up b isnt that difficult to beat. most mk players try it after u get to 130 and above. if you block the up b, up air them if they are above 50 imo. the reason i say this is because if you up air them when theyr at 0 percent of something, they wont have knockback and they can dair you, so what would be the point in that?
KelvinTooGood (1:19:15 PM): obviosuly this depends on your percent as well lol
KelvinTooGood (1:19:26 PM): but i learned this vs m2k.
phi1ny3 (1:19:48 PM): Can dair be used well v. SL?
KelvinTooGood (1:21:18 PM): do you mean when he ground up b's you?
KelvinTooGood (1:22:33 PM): if yes then yea if you jump high and do it. yea itll work. but i would just fair to fair
KelvinTooGood (1:22:38 PM): or fair to dair
KelvinTooGood (1:22:52 PM): depending on lucarios percent.
phi1ny3 (1:23:06 PM): when do you think you should be using fsmash to be more successful with it?
KelvinTooGood (1:24:20 PM): when both you and the MK are after 70 percent. people should also get into the habit of using pivot f smash. it gives u way more space that even sometimes if they powwer shield and try to grabd u they wont reach and u can punish the grab animation
KelvinTooGood (1:24:35 PM): also use f smash if their shield is low, it scares the hell out of them
KelvinTooGood (1:24:45 PM): like throw a fully chard aura spehre and f smash
KelvinTooGood (1:24:47 PM): be creative
phi1ny3 (1:25:57 PM): Oh, you mean that strutter step where you move your footing a little before releasing?
KelvinTooGood (1:26:20 PM): yes. just tap back on the analog stick and f smash the opposite way and its amazing lol
phi1ny3 (1:26:26 PM): Yeah I agree
phi1ny3 (1:27:02 PM): It helps space it even more since 90% of the time if they haven't moved into the hitbox they do it anyways
KelvinTooGood (1:27:15 PM): exactly
phi1ny3 (1:27:34 PM): Anywho, should fsmash be used against MK when he's landing?
KelvinTooGood (1:28:20 PM): thats situational. if the mk is on the ledge and youve noticed that the way they get on stage is jump and air dodge to the stage, then yea charge an f smash on them
KelvinTooGood (1:28:48 PM): if the mk has no jumps and is about to land on the stage that can work too. tho aura spehre is a better choice
KelvinTooGood (1:29:20 PM): depending on ur accuracy, it can punish landing just as well without having to be so close
phi1ny3 (1:30:41 PM): What do you do against MK dair camping?
KelvinTooGood (1:31:54 PM): when a mk dair camps, that most likely means they dont know the matchup and are scared. when i play an mk with lucario, thats the number one thing i want them to start doing. dair camping does not work on lucario. you can easily powershield to fair, nair, up air, etc
KelvinTooGood (1:32:18 PM): you have many options to shut that down. an mk on the ground is way dangerous than an mk above you while your on the ground
phi1ny3 (1:32:36 PM): This is what I've been thinking
KelvinTooGood (1:33:20 PM): m2k doesnt know the matchup lol everytime we have played he dair camps me and i always get a free fair to fair or other combos. he wins becasue hes a smart player and can disect my habits easily
phi1ny3 (1:33:28 PM): I couldn't explain it at the time because it sounded silly, but it just doesn't seem to good
KelvinTooGood (1:34:19 PM): it really isnt. mk f tilting for a minute is way more dangerous and bad for lucario then an mk dair camping for several minutes
KelvinTooGood (1:34:42 PM): dair camping to tornado would be there choice for damage. if your ever caught in tornado, mash the jump button to jump out
phi1ny3 (1:34:50 PM): Ooh, here's a good one
phi1ny3 (1:34:52 PM): How do you recover and get back in one piece? Do you like to recover high or low against MK? Do you prefer to save their jump at all costs, and what do you usually get punished for doing while trying to recover off the map?
KelvinTooGood (1:38:47 PM): whenever i would get launched off screen id immediately use my jump to DI. i learned that this is not a smart choice from Pierce after he yelled at me lol. save that jump because vs MK, your dam well going to need it. the way i recover depends where the mk is at. if hes in front of my face not doing anything, that means hes wating for me to air dodge and then hell punish. when that happens ill attack with fair or something and up b to the stage quickly. if theyr above me that is very very bad. you can try and up b but a good mk wont let you get back so dont ever put yourself in that position. Dair and nair are the moves youre gonna dread alot when your off stage. if your not so low, dont be afraid to throw an up air or fair to get them out of you face. recovery is one of the main reasons people probly see this bad for lucario but just be smart with it. alot of lucarios like zucco and junebug are learning how to recover better
phi1ny3 (1:40:16 PM): Would Aura sphere in any way help?
KelvinTooGood (1:41:56 PM): yes it CAN but it may do more harm then good. it kind of pushes u back a bit so if they air dodge, you just put urself in a bad position since u dropped lower and got pushed back a bit. the mk will then use that to its advantage. obviously you can be sneaky with the aura sphere but i dont recommend it. it can still be good tho
phi1ny3 (1:42:27 PM): What should a Lucario look for in an MK's pattern? What will a metaknight do if the tables get turned and he's losing?
KelvinTooGood (1:44:39 PM): the dair camp patterns. read them in case they throw a tornado in the mix. they usually have it on a set pattern like 3 dairs to nado. so get ready in to jump high and air dodge or something. when an MK i losing expect the MK to shield way more than usual, especially if lucario is at high percent too. take advantage of this with pivot f smashes, aura spheres and grabs.
KelvinTooGood (1:44:55 PM): also this isnt related to the question but i hope most lucarios are now
KelvinTooGood (1:45:05 PM): finishing the jab combo or doing jab jab to grabs
KelvinTooGood (1:45:17 PM): its amazing vs mk and most of the cast
phi1ny3 (1:45:25 PM): Yeah nobody does jab jab -> FP anymore lol
KelvinTooGood (1:45:29 PM): dont use jab jab side b vs mk or youll regret it
KelvinTooGood (1:45:34 PM): yea its not good
phi1ny3 (1:45:45 PM): Although wouldn't jab1 -> grab work well too?
KelvinTooGood (1:45:58 PM): yes but then 2nd jab adds damage!! lol
phi1ny3 (1:46:16 PM): whats the safest way to score a kill?
KelvinTooGood (1:48:38 PM): pivot f smash and aura sphere. dont approach mk to try and kill him. let him come to you. be completely safe and dont try any risky or flshy stuff otherwise mk will get the upper hand without breaking a sweat. dont spam dair over their shield or something if u think its sfae. itdefinately not. if you want to do something along those lines, do 1 dair and if you can do 2 more dairs, their probly gonna expect it. so fast fall after the first dair and grab. mindgammeeessss
KelvinTooGood (1:48:39 PM): lol
KelvinTooGood (1:49:24 PM): also, jab jab to pivot f smash = ****. i closed sets with anther and snakeee for example doing that
KelvinTooGood (1:50:06 PM): it kinda works because they like to spam spot dodge while u jab them. mk might spot dodge, d smash or up b so beware
phi1ny3 (1:51:21 PM): How would you best go about camping MK? Like how would you use AS/BAS and aerials?
KelvinTooGood (1:51:52 PM): like a nice strat to get the kill later on in the match is. jab jab then roll away and see how they react after the second jab. if they spot dodge, test it again later. if they react the same way, just finish the jab combo next time and when u need and can get the kill, jab jab to f smash and hooray lol. remember, if you always read a bad habit from then, save to punish it in the end and refrain from doing it immediately
KelvinTooGood (1:53:38 PM): the camping strat i formulated for myself is aura shenanigans. when i take the first stock (i usually do or hope i do lol) i change my style completely up into only doing lagless moves. like fair, aura spehre, grabs, jab combo, and others
KelvinTooGood (1:53:46 PM): everytime you land one of these lagless moves
KelvinTooGood (1:53:52 PM): run away and charge ur aura spehre
KelvinTooGood (1:54:21 PM): dont try and continue the combo. trust me. youll see that in no time theyll be at kill percent becuz of the aura boost you have
KelvinTooGood (1:54:38 PM): then after they get to 100 u can use f smash and dair and stuff but dont get too risky
KelvinTooGood (1:54:57 PM): just hit and run situation. abuse ur characters best ability
phi1ny3 (1:55:38 PM): This is gold
KelvinTooGood (1:56:22 PM): haha. all lucario players need to do is use their head better and instead of there being a shortege of lucario players, theyll be feared all waround the country. no offense to anyone of course
KelvinTooGood (1:56:44 PM): around*
phi1ny3 (1:56:47 PM): lol
phi1ny3 (1:56:54 PM): In terms of map control, what parts of the map do you like to push MK's into regarding spacing and platforms?
KelvinTooGood (1:58:19 PM): I like pushing MK into then edge of the stage so i have filed control and mass room for camping while hes on the edge struggling the overthrow my camping strategy. if mk is on a platform above you, its also bad for him too. hell probly try to drop down and dair or nado. shield and grabd and throw them away and camp more
KelvinTooGood (1:58:38 PM): mk being above while im on stage or away is perfect for lucario imo
phi1ny3 (2:01:11 PM): Oh yeah, so I think that wraps it up for actual "questions". Any advice you want to leave, or closing remarks?
KelvinTooGood (2:04:03 PM): anyone who says lucarios isnt viable is dead wrong. he definately has the tools to win a national. bad matchups are being overcome alot now by good lucario players. zucco beat atomsks ddd( which he has like top 3 in nation) in tourney a month ago which in my opinion is sooooooooooooooooooo bad. and it makes me happy that hes showing us that lucario can do it. i main MK so i dont show much of lucario but when i do im sure i dont disappoint.
im planning on hoping to face chu dat at pound 4 since he beat zucco at the last tourney. i know it that lucario wins imo and im planning on showing it since i saw both players do alot of dumb things and i wanna see how i do
KelvinTooGood (2:04:31 PM): anyways, Lucario is being used more and more in tourney and can definately do great things. everyone keep it up.
KelvinTooGood (2:04:44 PM): also, shoutout to miranda cosgrove
phi1ny3 (2:05:38 PM): lol
