Lucario vs. Jigglypuff (36) Export

[phi1ny3]

Jigglypuff

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Matchup:

60:40

General info:

Jiggz can float in and out just like wario can. she's a little slower, but not by much. I'd say it's more 60:40. Jiggz just has problems killing when punishing a mistake. Lucario gets the advantage since fsmash, bair, and uair are good punishers to jiggz mistakes, all of which kill. Plus AS is an overall versatile tool which hinders anything jiggz tries to do.

It'd mainly her lack of a ability to kill well, her air mobility is better than Lucario's but lacks range outside of pound.

If she had better killing tools I'd list it as a 55:45, but since she has problems with this and we're talking about not killing well vs Lucario. The disjointed range is a problem for her when it makes approaching a real problem.

I think I may know the MU too well which is why I listed it as a 65:35.

60:40 is probably a better number but I feel like this is MU is a problem for jiggs.

What to avoid:

Jigglypuff


Just Win LOL. Fighting/Steel Resists Normal X4 so you should have no problems.

but seriously.

Moves to look out for:

Fair: Jigglypuff ussually saves this for killing, but if you meet a jiggly that can guarantee rests/doesn't care about staling fair her aggro game gets that much better.

if they do Fair early it can trade hits with our fair but otherwise we will outspeed it.

Bair: if they save fair for killing this is what you'll be seeing most of the time, I'm pretty sure we outspeed it, but idk about the range because I can't test Bair VS fair well by myself <_<
Just don't DI it horribly and you should be good.

Dair: Jigglypuff can either fullhop or SH this, SH has the ability to chain into rest [on trip only] or grab where FH can chain into an Aerial. around 150-ish it starts to make you bounce into the air a bit and that can catch you off guard. This Move can also severely eat up your shield.

Dash Attack: outspeeds our Fsmash

Spoiler

even at tipper range

<< [but don't tell the jigglys that its a secret], launches you into the air. The only ground move of jigglypuff that doesn't blatantly suck.

DACUS: This will surprise you every once in awhile, ussually used to catch us on landing when dash attack is too far to.

Pound: stupid stupid stupid stupid priority for some reason, rising pound is ussually used to recover after their momentum cancel to preserve jumps. Does a LOAD of shield damage so be careful when shielding this.

Rest: has invincibility on frame 1, um... kills you past 100... idk lol, will ussually only connect on a dair trip, if they whiff it you get a Free Charged Smash of your choice.

Sing: increases their edge sweetspot range, otherwise useless lol.

Jigglypuff is weird, and can be really easy or a annoying to deal with. Don't chase jigglypuff offstage with fairs if your like under 50%, gimps are stupid @_@. otherwise watch out for pound, fairs, and dairs as they can put some slight pressure on, Uptilt ussually beats them out though.

Something to keep in mind though, even though jigglypuff is light she can cancel momentum fairly well, so don't be freaked out if you see a stock tanking jigglypuff.

if anything, the match-up is REALLY hard for jigglypuff based on the fact that she has a real hard time killing us and that lets us reach high %s that let us kill her Reallllly early.

60-40 to 65-35 Lucario's advantage

I guess I'll be the first to post on the Jigglypuff matchup...

It's basically 60:40 Lucario. He can outspace Jigglypuff for the most part, but I can't think of any kill moves he can really land on Jigglypuff, especially when her kills are mostly going to be gimps, thus preventing Lucario from getting to high percentages.

That's really it. Unless the 'Puff is really crafty, getting in can be problem. Lucarios weight is pretty perfect for chaining a few bairs, so getting him off stage shouldn't be hard either, once you get in.

Jigglypoooooffff is the lightest character in the game. You should have no problem killing her.

She can SDI your Jabs to hit you with Rest. Her Pound om noms shields, don't expect her to hit you with Rollout unless you're on like FD or something. Her disjointedness may make you think twice about approaching her, so throw some Aura Spheres at her if you are far enough away. You're floaty, so you shouldn't get juggled much by the time you hit mid %s.

Her best approaches on Lucario are horizontally.

Uh... You'll be killing her way before she can kill you if you don't get WOPed/gimped. She's got good speed in the air, but still overall kinda slow.

Watch out for her shieldpoking with DAir. Some of her best kills at high %s involve DAir -> follow up (FSmash, DSmash, etc.). She probably won't try to Rest you out of it (unless you're DIing into her for some reason...) because if she whiffs it, well you know what to do. Her boost smash has respectable range, but it should be easy to shield or just hit her out of it.

Uh what else is there to say...? You outcamp her badly. Your range just deflates her... I don't know what stages would be best either. FD allows her to use Rollout with a bit of freedom (for extra lulz time grabbing her out of it). She can kinda platform juggle you on BF and YI.

Probably 65:35 Lucario or better.

How to win:

I play jigglypuff quite a bit myself and have used her against a few Lucarios. Air camping works well until the Lucario player decides to step up the camp hardcore and just constantly throw out full charge AS, run away and bair spam etc. The risk v reward for jiggs to try and aircamp might start out well but rapidly turns bad once AS are doing like >16% per hit, which only requires Lucario to be above 50%, a % range he will stay at for a long time vs Jigglypuff.

JP vs Lucario is somewhere between 60:40 and 75:25 Lucario. getting in on Lucario can be tough due to his aura reach. Lucarios ground game nullifies any sort of ground game JP has, not like its alot anyway. its easier for JP to fight when it comes to an air battle, where JP spends 75% of the time, but Lucarios no push over there and her Uair can't hit through his Dair....... gimping lucario isn't too hard, but thats all shes really got. as long as Lucario camps, zones carfully, and manages to recover if nocked offstage this matchup is pretty easy for him. be wary of pound and its wonky hitbox.

how is lucario when dealing w/ ledge camping?

Helpful tips:

For jiggz, you'll want to save nair when it comes near time for killing, it really has good killpower against floaties if it's a little more fresh, and it's his second fastest aerial and a good ooS punish option/screening method.
uair is also really good for this.

Stages:

Against jiggz I don't really like frigate too much because if we're in the dip in the middle, jiggz can stay right above us and consistently hit the blind spots on all our aerials with fair. Yeah we have bair, but it's not that hard to out zone.
I would cp pictochat or luigi's mansion. With our disjointed aura, pictochat's transformations make it a little easier to hit, since your opponent will be a little bit more distracted. Luigi's mansion has ceilings which allow us to live quite long. Just avoid the fsmash and don't get f-aired or b-aired right off into the blastzones and you'll be fine. If picto and luigi's is banned, I'd just go to FD or yoshi's island, maybe even smashville if you're more comfortable there.

if you can manage to take JP somewhere like CS, or god forbid LM and any otherstage w/ little offstage area or is huge it makes it even easier for you. i can't really think of any stage lucario could do bad at against JP.

Disclaimer: This thread is made for the sole purpose of keeping matchup discussing clean and organized. If people wish to discuss a past matchup, they may do so in this thread without cluttering the current discussion.

 

[phi1ny3]

Yay last one of the 1st sets!
Now to tackle the rediscussions!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Be careful, those Jigglypuff's might have learned Flamethrower just for us.

 

[Kitamerby]

That jigglypuff is disgusting. Replace it with this.

 

[Konrad-QD]

How do you punish Dair on shield? In general are JP's moves safe on shield or is there a way to punish them? As far as priority, what moves do we have that beat or trade JP's moves in the air. Is that dependent on aura boost? There's a good jigglypuff in my region and I must say I got bopped recently even though I feel like I should be winning.