Make Bowser S Tier! How can he be buffed?

[pitfall356]

Some of these are crazy, most of them are downright outlandish, but with these changes I believe Bowser would be seen at any major event near the top. Do we really need these? Does Bowser need or even have a chance of getting these buffs? Probably not, but I thought it would be fun to discuss big changes to the character that would make him super viable.

Here goes!

• Fix his hitbox issues. Add windboxes on his body to push opponents out of his model and into harm's way, to stop moves like ftilt, utilt, and klaw from whiffing so much. Alternatively, add more hitboxes that cover his body better to hit people that are inside him.
• Lower his jumpsquat and hard landing lag to mirror the rest of the cast. Just, please.
• Make klaw's hitbox larger, to better scoop opponents.
• Alternatively, allow klaw to be angled upward or downward with a slightly increased range so that we can better grab people directionally. A solid, skill-rewarding buff.
• Render people released by klaw helpless so that they can not recover. It's insulting to witness recoveries.
• Give Bowser's aerials better autocancels, so that he can put out his aerials safer and allow for some followups.
• Give nair less startup frames so that it comes out faster, with a decrease to damage output to compensate.
• Make the hitboxes on nair slightly larger so that it doesn't lose to most attacks.
• Decrease startup and endlag on Firebreath. Allow FB to stop spitting fire sooner as well.
• Increase shieldstun on Firebreath to make it a true combo on shields when FB is fully charged.
• Add back flame cancelling! Just think of what happens to our SHAD, or if we were to autocancel an aerial into FB...
• Make dthrow launch at a more horizontal angle, or make it not launch at all so it becomes a tech chase.
• Add a couple of weak hitboxes to the endframes of ftilt, so that instead of being a giant hurtbox it can still catch people that run into it.
• Allow Fortress to run off of edges.
• Give Bowser back his crazy ledge attack.
• Decrease end frames on dsmash.
• Add a windbox to dsmash that sucks in opponents.
• Give dair superarmor on the first three frames so that it can combo break.
• Alternatively, always force dair to rise before putting out the hitbox so that Bowser doesn't just try to move to the ground and thus get combo'd further.

As an added bonus, a really broken idea that I thought was funny:

• Make the rising hit of Bowser bomb lock players in shields, forcing breaks.
• Another broken idea I just had: "**** it, let's just give klaw super armor."

Alright, did I miss anything? What do you all think is just plain wrong? Let's drum up some real discussion on why these ideas are broken, solid, questionable, or should be replaced with better ideas! What have we got, Bowser team?

EDIT: I forgot to include another solid idea I had. There's been talk about improving Tough Guy, but I think what it needs is less "I'm armored! Fear me!" and more "I need to push through projectiles because ****ing hell this isn't fun". I think I've got a list ready to roll.

The idea is that this stays true 100% of the time instead of being a % thing. Basically, Bowser always tears through these attacks, making him less vulnerable to zoning.

(Dr) Mario's Fireball
Luigi's Fireball
Sheik's needles
Pikachu's thunderjolt
Diddy's popgun (Except when charged almost completely)
All Link and Pit arrows (Except when full charged)
Robin's weak Thunder (And maybe arc fire?)
Samus charge shot (Uncharged to half charge)
ROB's regular laser
Falco's blaster
Duck Hunt's frisby + shots
Greninja's shurikens (Unless full charged)
Ness's PK Fire (Which means the initial hit ALSO doesn't flinch)
Villager's slingshot
All of Little Mac's jab (Except the last hit)
Ryu - basically, all fireballs except the special input slow-moving hadouken.
Pac Man's cherry (and maybe other projectiles, if anyone thinks so)
G&W's assorted foods.

ok yup that's all of 'em.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Very interesting thread.

Though, I cant help but cry, thinking about how we will probably never get more than half the buffs you listed. Also, I cant think of other need buffs for Bowser than the ones you listed there, and I believe you gathered everything people already wanted as buffs for our King.

The first buff I wanted about Bowser's aerials is give his Nair a little more range, or matches perfectly the animation, and, hopefully, a little more priority, kind of like Villager's, but with longer startup indeed. This is something I really wanted so Bowser can throw that move in the neutral and not trade with every other aerial possible.

About Fire breath, Im only disappointed that it doesnt work like Zard's, it is much better for zoning and gimping because all of its hitboxes give hitstun. If we get that, He wont need startup or endlag frames changes.

What I wanted about Bowser's Down air is simply more shield damage. Why would bomb break fresh shields and dair doesnt do much? This would really frighten people to shield bellow Bowser when he tries to land, but they could still challenge dair with their up airs or tilts.

I think thats all I gotta say for now.

 

[Event43]

Hmm. Add 15-30 KBG so that it can kill. And make Bowsers foot intangible like all of his other limbs (and head) during his attacks.

 

[pitfall356]

We don't need nair as a kill move. It's a solid aerial damage move, good for sharking platforms, good as an uthrow followup, etc. If Bowser got buffs in the same vein that Ike did I honestly think that would be enough for him to reach the top in any tournament - like G3.

Dair actually deals a sizable amount of shield damage. I don't think it needs much more than it has - if you followed up dair with dtilt, I'm sure the shield would break.

 

[Event43]

Hmm. Add 15-30 KBG so that it can kill. And make Bowsers foot intangible like all of his other limbs (and head) during his attacks.

... ... I forgot to write Dash Attack...
Since DKs head is intagible during many of his arm attacks (The arms are also intagible). Then I think Bowsers limbs should also hbe intagible on Bair, Fair and Nair.

Dair can have a larger horizontal displacement to better combat attack that whould otherwise beat it.
I Also think that Dair should have a different hitbox on grounded and spike even during the later hitboxes (Like many other dive kicks)

The intagible hitboxes allows Bowser to beat any move that hits the limbs, but if they have a tiny fraction of the hitbox on any other hurtbox, it will hurt Bowser. This should allow Bowser to beat projectiles by hitting them in the air to, much like his jab beats Samus Charge shot and anything that doesen't touch his body.

 

[pitfall356]

Edited the thread to include the Tough Guy stuff I forgot to add.

 

[CreamyFatone]

Make fair faster and with less landing lag like it's L-canceled.

Give FB a strong windbox at the end.

Autocanceling Dair like Sonic's.

Fast Klaw in the air.

Air Fortress that has the same hitboxes as ground fortress.

I actually think some of these are reasonable buffs to be honest.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Its the needles thelmselves that need a nerf.. (sorry)

Also, Tough Guy should protect from all rapid jabs, and the 1-2 first hits of regular ones, and that would be really, really good. I know it works for Little Mac's because the damage it deals is inferior to 1%, but come on make it for 1 to 3% moves at least.

 

[pitfall356]

Nah, TG is already a broken concept. If I can armor through most jabs with it I don't see why I couldn't put out fsmash more. Someone is going to **** up a jab and eat an fsmash.

Let's just not.

I do agree needles need a nerf though.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

A throw combo to improve Bowser's punish game to that of DK while also validating our entire air game as a ground-oriented fighter, and the ability to ledge snap backwards with Fortress (which is the rare Up B that can't be B-reversed) so that offstage edgeguarding is more safe when we miss and they get to the ledge first. These are things we explicitly asked for. And you want more? When people say Smash 4 players are too dependent on balance patches and can't appreciate their characters for what they are, this is what they are talking about.

...but if this is just a harmless think tank project of how to make Bowser instantly S tier, I guess that's okay. Make it so Dair can be mashed to escape and counter combos. Tough guy to armor everything less than 5% damage, super armor every move, Fortress completely invulnerable so we can recover like sheik, shave 10 endlag off every attack, including jab so I can jab to Fsmash true combo, and why is Bowser Bomb the only move that breaks shields? Make jab do that too.

I'm contributing.

 

[conTAgi0n]

The only downside to the uthrow buff is that because it was so dramatic, we probably won't get anymore buffs, when really Bowser still needs a little more to compete with the top of the cast.

Specifically, Bowser needs a tweak to improve his neutral game. I think that significantly improving fair's frame data and klaw's hitbox would be plenty. If Bowser got those two buffs, I think he'd be just right: a serious threat able to hang with the best, but still with big exploitable weaknesses. Powerful but not broken.

EDIT:

A throw combo to improve Bowser's punish game to that of DK while also validating our entire air game as a ground-oriented fighter, and the ability to ledge snap backwards with Fortress (which is the rare Up B that can't be B-reversed) so that offstage edgeguarding is more safe when we miss and they get to the ledge first. These are things we explicitly asked for. And you want more? When people say Smash 4 players are too dependent on balance patches and can't appreciate their characters for what they are, this is what they are talking about.

...but if this is just a harmless think tank project of how to make Bowser instantly S tier, I guess that's okay. Make it so Dair can be mashed to escape and counter combos. Tough guy to armor everything less than 5% damage, super armor every move, Fortress completely invulnerable so we can recover like sheik, shave 10 endlag off every attack, including jab so I can jab to Fsmash true combo, and why is Bowser Bomb the only move that breaks shields? Make jab do that too.

I'm contributing.

I agree that Bowser got some awesome buffs, but do you think he has what it takes to make top 4 in a national tournament (not a rhetorical question)? I personally do think that he probably needs some minor improvements in his neutral options before he's at that level, despite how far he has come. Thus I think there is room for reasonable discussion about what could still be "fixed" about Bowser. Like you said though, a thread like this is just harmless fun anyways.

 

[pitfall356]

Zapp, you fantastic SOB. I can't stop laughing.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Absolutely agreed conTAgi0n , also yes the most needed buffs for the Bowz is fixing buffs as he said, I mean, plenty of characters got things fixed for them, now if it will be a huge shame if Bowser doesnt get them when the game will be totally finished (wich I assume will be when Bayonetta will comes out as the last DLC for the game, and Sakurai and his people probably wont keep patching the game afterwards).

 

[B!squick]

Make his UpB also kill him somehow and he'll be perfect.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Yeah the first hitbox on the UpB is kind of useless beside interupting edgeguards and alikes, but the rest of the multi hits are good enough at it.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I agree that Bowser got some awesome buffs, but do you think he has what it takes to make top 4 in a national tournament (not a rhetorical question)? I personally do think that he probably needs some minor improvements in his neutral options before he's at that level, despite how far he has come. Thus I think there is room for reasonable discussion about what could still be "fixed" about Bowser. Like you said though, a thread like this is just harmless fun anyways.

Please note that when editing a post with a quote, no notification is sent to the person you are quoting.

And I think it's an unfair question. There's no right answer other than perhaps "No" or "Well, if Samus can make top 8 and be one of the worst characters, I don't see why we can't". If you asked the same question, and instead of Bowser we were playing Ike, Robin, literally any one of 50 other characters in this roster of 56, my answer can only be my own opinion. What would it prove?

Look, being a mid tier is not as bad as it used to be in other games. It doesn't mean "unviable past the local level". I appreciate balance updates, but there's a serious issue when people who don't want to put time and effort into their play just sit and wait for designers to make it easier on them. Having this many characters in a game and keeping it balanced is not easy. But there is a way that you, yes you who are reading this, can help other players. By documenting lab notes, studying matchup counter strategies, and making information easy to digest. You'd be doing more to help a character's meta then some japanese men who sift through tourney results and For Glory stats ever could. Or just keep entering events and prove that your guy works by example. Our top Bowsers were making consistent placements at their locals before this update, now they continue to do so, only with placements of 1st and 2nd over 7th and 13th. It's promising, but too soon to make real judgements on the national level.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Shout outs to Zapp Branniglenn for being one of the best poster out there, imo.

What you're saying there is very intelligent and well-thought and it made me think about what exactly are balance patches, and I have to agree that we are the only one who can really improve our character and, mostly, teach him to beginners and other people picking up the King. However, theres indeed some things that are prominent in the flaws of Bowser and thus need developpment fixes,and these are the first buffs we ask for. To be honest, I wouldnt care if Bowser got any buff in the next patches, because I think that he is really good and above all extremely fun as he is now, and thanks to some arrangment he got. I just wish I could represent him in tourneys, but I cant do much, here, in France lol.

 

[Hyrus]

If you want to talk about buffing Bowser, I think you have to consider that we'd be trying to make his worst matchups better, not make him a better character overall. Small, fast characters can exploit Bowser hard. Bigger heavyweights tend to be an even match.

I think it's also worth noting that the upper tiers give everyone trouble with their no-weaknesses BS. If those characters get their comeuppance, Bowser would be a much better competitive character.

OP's aerial suggestions would help immensely, as getting juggled or trying to get back to the ground are needlessly frustrating and most oftenly occurs against the speedsters. Intangable limbs during the entire attack would make pokes far better tools without breaking them. Improving all of his different dodges frame data would also help against projectile spammers and spacers, as it seems that they are all made laggy for the sake of making a defensive character suck at defense.

Windboxes, Firebreath, and SideB don't help against lightweights anymore than they would against heavyweights, so I wouldn't touch those.

I appreciate balance updates, but there's a serious issue when people who don't want to put time and effort into their play just sit and wait for designers to make it easier on them. Having this many characters in a game and keeping it balanced is not easy. But there is a way that you, yes you who are reading this, can help other players. By documenting lab notes, studying matchup counter strategies, and making information easy to digest. You'd be doing more to help a character's meta then some japanese men who sift through tourney results and For Glory stats ever could. Or just keep entering events and prove that your guy works by example. Our top Bowsers were making consistent placements at their locals before this update, now they continue to do so, only with placements of 1st and 2nd over 7th and 13th. It's promising, but too soon to make real judgements on the national level.

I appreciate and agree with your sentiments, Zapp. But whatcha suppose a thread like this one is really going to accomplish? No one from Nintendo reads these, it's just our own fantasy football lineup kind of a concept. And that's about all you can do, since the devs seem largely incompetent in balancing the game anyway. Buffing Ganon's jab by 1-2%? That does virtually nothing! Bowser gets regular buffs, but they don't seem to make him any more powerful against his worst matchups. Most of the lower half of every version of every tier list there ever was haven't been touched in the year+ this game has been out. Yeah, they'll occassionally take a high tier down a peg, or buff rocket a random mid tier all the way up to high mid tier.

But yeah. Gettin' Gud is about the only realistic solution to anything.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Please note that when editing a post with a quote, no notification is sent to the person you are quoting.

Thanks for pointing that out to me, I didn't realize. In hindsight I probably should have guessed that was the case. My bad.

And I think it's an unfair question. There's no right answer other than perhaps "No" or "Well, if Samus can make top 8 and be one of the worst characters, I don't see why we can't". If you asked the same question, and instead of Bowser we were playing Ike, Robin, literally any one of 50 other characters in this roster of 56, my answer can only be my own opinion. What would it prove?

Look, being a mid tier is not as bad as it used to be in other games. It doesn't mean "unviable past the local level". I appreciate balance updates, but there's a serious issue when people who don't want to put time and effort into their play just sit and wait for designers to make it easier on them. Having this many characters in a game and keeping it balanced is not easy. But there is a way that you, yes you who are reading this, can help other players. By documenting lab notes, studying matchup counter strategies, and making information easy to digest. You'd be doing more to help a character's meta then some japanese men who sift through tourney results and For Glory stats ever could. Or just keep entering events and prove that your guy works by example. Our top Bowsers were making consistent placements at their locals before this update, now they continue to do so, only with placements of 1st and 2nd over 7th and 13th. It's promising, but too soon to make real judgements on the national level.

I really do agree with what you are saying. I actually have a lot of optimism about what Bowser is capable of in this game, especially after this patch. I am happy with Bowser as he is, and I have tons of fun with him. I even try to make my modest contribution to furthering the Bowser meta. For example, even though I'm not a tournament goer (at least for now), I spent the better part of today labbing uthrow -> bair, and posting about what I learned in the uthrow -> uair kill percent thread I put together earlier.

So you are right, Bowser is fine the way he is. He doesn't need any changes. But it's harmless and fun to discuss what tweaks could make him an S tier character without just making him dumb or broken. And just like with any character outside of the top 5-10, we can probably come up with some buffs that seem pretty reasonable. It could even be argued plausibly that most characters outside the top tier (including Bowser) may even need one or two of those to really stand toe-to-toe with the top of the cast, though that is totally speculative still, and definitely shouldn't deter anyone from exploring the character more and trying to prove that wrong.

That's all I was trying to say. I expressed myself a bit clumsily. Hopefully I don't come off as just a whiner doing nothing for Bowser; I really am all for appreciating Bowser as he currently is and improving him by pushing the character as far as we can.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Toying with the idea is fun but why not enjoy the character for what it is? Bowser is an awesome character right now. The only thing that is left is fixed Klaw hitboxes, and even then, I still get most of my kills off of Klaw (sad, I know.)

 

[S_B]

Two things I'd love to see:

-Super armor on the descent of bomb: watched a match yesterday in which Bowser lost entirely because he was forced to recover high onto the stage instead of bombing to the ledge for fear of being knocked out of the bomb. The move is stupid piles of laggy so I really don't see the issue with SAing it just so Bowser can always use it to get to the ledge if he needs to (no more characters countering it, either).

-Being able to cancel Dair after a certain time and recover: If you FH Dair off the stage, you can see Bowser start to come out of his shell moments before he hits the blast zone. I'd LOVE to be able to do this and still recover, and I don't think it would be that powerful, either. If you miss, you have the most linear path to recover possible so it'd still be a huge risk to use it, but it would be another option with which you could catch people off guard.

 

[Greward]

Less landing lag on upb... really need this. I have to recover high sometimes and I'd love not having 80 frames of landing lag.
Better frame data on rolls / spot dodge / ground techs. Ground techs specially suck. They're funny tho.
Tough guy working against sheik needles and villager's sourspot fair/bair and some weak projectile bull**** (This one would be nice, at least sheik needles. This game needs it)
Some buff to his recovery. He's too gimpable. I don't even know how tho. Klaw working like Mewtwo's side b?
And some kinda option to avoid getting juggled as hard... again I don't know how to not make it overpowered. Klaw like Mewtwo's side B could help- but I love landing klaw now. More horizontal distance on double jump maybe? Super armor on dair/down B is too strong for casuals/FFA.

 

[33percentgod]

Two things I'd love to see:

-Super armor on the descent of bomb: watched a match yesterday in which Bowser lost entirely because he was forced to recover high onto the stage instead of bombing to the ledge for fear of being knocked out of the bomb. The move is stupid piles of laggy so I really don't see the issue with SAing it just so Bowser can always use it to get to the ledge if he needs to (no more characters countering it, either).

S_B for president 2016.

I have been saying this same thing FOREVER now. It's almost laughable watching the HEAVIEST character come down, full speed like hell descending onto you, then get knocked out of the move by the tip of someones foot or a turnip. Like...what? How is that even a thing?

Super armor wouldn't make the move "OP" because if you get hit, you get hit. And if you miss, 99.9% of the time you just get punished by an F-Smash.

Bowser already struggles to land on the stage/not get juggled to hell. Can someone just have mercy on this char for once? I swear I feel like people will use "well he kills early!" as a reason for him to literally be completely gimped on EVERY other aspect. He kills early with F-smash, how often are you using, let alone actually LANDING that move?

 

[S_B]

Bowser already struggles to land on the stage/not get juggled to hell. Can someone just have mercy on this char for once? I swear I feel like people will use "well he kills early!" as a reason for him to literally be completely gimped on EVERY other aspect. He kills early with F-smash, how often are you using, let alone actually LANDING that move?

Yeah, he doesn't kill early at all if he can never actually retaliate.

SA on the descent of Down+B would be the tool Bowser needs to always get to a ledge and then hopefully back on the stage and into neutral. It would also give him a nice option against characters who like to Uair juggle the piss out of him.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

• Give him heavy armor on his aerials so that he can actually escape UAir juggles.
• Increase vertical height of Whirling Fortress and give it heavy armor.
• Give Bowser Bomb some super armor to make it a much better way to get on-stage.
• Decrease downwards acceleration a fair bit on DAir, but leave it otherwise unchanged.
• Make Dash Slash his default Side Special; DS is so much more versatile than the Klaw. That, or give Klaw super armor.

Those are the things that are the most vital, IMO; Bowser's absolute worst flaws are his predictable and easily-gimped recovery, situational Side Special and a heavy vulnurability to aerial chains.

DAir is just way too unforgiving, IMO; if you miss, you're as good as dead if you aren't able to input Whirling Fortress in time.

 

[S_B]

Less landing lag on upb... really need this. I have to recover high sometimes and I'd love not having 80 frames of landing lag.

On this subject, moves in a fighting game should have a balanced risk vs. reward ratio. Fsmash is a good example of a well-balanced move. Yes, it's slow, yes, the hitbox takes a while to come out, but if you actually manage to LAND it, it's very powerful.

The risk vs. reward ratio for a number of moves of Bowser's is straight up terrible for the following:

Aerial Fortress

Like Grew said, TONS of landing lag. And yet, it can't KO, people fall out of it very easily, and the last hit doesn't launch far enough to prevent a punish even if all the hits DO somehow land.

It's made even worse by Bowser's super-slow fall speed after using it, which just adds insult to the injury of how long it takes for him to come out of his shell on landing. Yes, it can hypothetically deal around 35% if you land all the hits (but the odds of that happening are terrible, as I mentioned earlier), but I suspect that most Bowser players would gladly have the move deal next to no damage in exchange for the landing lag to be reduced. We can't even cancel the lag by landing it right on a platform like DK can with his up+B.

This makes it so Bowser players avoid recovering high like the plague because the risk of getting spiked is often a better choice than the GUARANTEE of getting Fsmashed for landing on stage with fortress.

What I Suggest: Why not let it have Melee's endlag (aka immediate)? Even with NO endlag, this move still stands a VERY high chance of being punished if used on stage, and the odds are that Bowser was only using it to recover, not to actually attempt to hit an opponent.

Forcing Bowser to recover to the ledge every time makes him more predictable than he needs to be.

Fire Breath

If you can catch someone with this move at point-blank range, you'll deal about 15% to them, which is still less than most of Bowser's aerials. Yet, if you miss, you're open to pretty much the punish of choice for your opponent, especially if they're playing a fast character that can jump over you and land quickly. All this for a move that absolutely cannot KO (there's a tiny windbox at the end of the flame but I've never seen anyone actually use it to gimp a recovery).

Again, the risk vs. reward ratio with this move is insanely bad. It's best used only to harass recoveries, and even then, if the opponent can slip under it and snap to the ledge, you're going to eat a getup attack.

What I Suggest: Just make it end faster than it does now. I don't know if Bowser is supposed to be shutting off the "fire valve" in his throat or something, but it takes a silly amount of time for him to just close his mouth. It would also be nice if we could aim it up and down more quickly, but the real fault of this move is that you can net ~15% in exchange for locking Bowser in place for far too long.

Alternatively, let Bowser grab the ledge while using it. Then, we could use it as a spacing tool while jumping near the ledge, or recovering, allowing Bowser to put some counter-pressure on his opponent without falling below the ledge where he can easily be spiked (either stage spiked or Daired).

Down Smash

An all around meh move. If you have enough time to use Dsmash, you had enough time to do pretty much anything else except Fsmash (including klaw, which is 18% vs. Dsmash's 16%). The hitbox may be a bit wider than fortress', but it can't slide, has more ending lag, more startup time and to make matters worse, the random nature of the final hit can often save your opponent by hurling them back toward the stage instead of toward the blast zone.

What I Suggest: Give it some super-armor or invuln frames. No, seriously, if this move had SA, it would make it a great aggression punisher when we're not certain what an opponent is going to do at that moment, but we're pretty sure they're going to attack. Like, the first 5 frames of the hitbox would flash, denoting when the SA is active, after which Bowser could be hit as normal.

Alternatively, at least make it always launch an opponent TOWARD the nearest blast zone instead of back onto the safety of the stage, or make the hitbox extend far enough below it that it will always threaten foes hanging on the ledge. It just needs to fill some kind of niche in Bowser's moveset and right now it's pretty much always a bad option to be using.

Other than these outliers, most of Bowser's moveset is pretty well balanced around risk vs. reward. I'd just like to see these three moves be worth using and/or not nearly always having better options.

 

[CreamyFatone]

I want more range on Dropkick.

I literally want it to be the range of Corrin's F-smash. He would just hop a little bit forward and BAM.

I want firebreath to have a windbox.

I want the bottom portion of Nair where Bowser's foot comes down to be a meteor. I might have been dreaming, but I ****ing swear I did it once. It might have been completely situational smash 4 jank, but still.

I want nothing done practically to down-throw, however I would prefer if the animation was the People's Elbow.

I want his d-tilt to be individual moves.

I want fortress to have a windbox sucking in.

That is all.

 

[Metalex]

Just some ideas i think would be nice:

Down throw
*Forces a tech chase similiar to Snakes throw in brawl. Would give the throw an actual use and he bodyslams the opponent after all so it would be more realistic too.

Bowser Bomb
*Make the ground shake when he lands so grounded opponents in a area around bowser trips. (like when Bowser jumps in mario 64)

Fortress
*Make Bowser able to act/get no freefall out of aerial Fortress! Would be such a good tool for multiple purposes.
*Give it some invincibility at the start like in Melee and less endlag.
*Make it possible to cancel it off the edge of the stage/a platform.

Firebreath
*Give the move a little bit less startup and much less endlag, as it is now it's very punishable compared to the reward you get.
*Aimable at a wider range upwards, and can change angle quicker similiar to Charizard.

Koopa Claw
*Give the grab hitbox some more range.
*Add the option to do the backthrow or forward slice he had in Melee when pressing back or forward after landing the move, and keep the flying slam as a option when pressing Up.

Dtilt
*Give Bowser the option to do one clawswipe if pressing the A button once and do the double swipe if pressed quickly two times.

Fsmash
*Give back Bowsers old Fsmash animation. (the most important buff, as it was obiviously way cooler )

 

[conTAgi0n]

A lot of these suggestions are for tuning up some of Bowser's unnecessarily bad moves, like down smash and flame breath. I would love to see those changes, but at the same time they seem mostly like quality of life improvements that won't move Bowser up the tier list too much. EDIT: Forgot to mention, my favorite suggestion of this nature is lower landing lag on aerial up b. I always just took it for granted how unnecessarily punishable this is, but man my heart sinks every time I see that poor turtle drift to the ground in helpless state.

Here are three changes that together would probably move Bowser up to at least high tier, and are actually realistic ones I could see the balance team making. None of these would even be as dramatic as the uthrow change they already made.

1. Buff fair

At least 2 out of 3 of the following changes:
* Increase damage from 13/12/11 to 14/13/12.
* Reduce either startup, faf, landing lag, or some combination of those.
* Increase range

Bowser's fair is already a decent move, but these improvements would help Bowser's neutral immensely. This gives him a more potent response to a lot of characters' air games and a pretty good aerial to toss out in neutral. Plus making fair a better kill move would help diversify Bowser's kill options away from uthrow uair all the time.

This change would also be both moderate and reasonable. I didn't bother specifying exact frame reductions or range increases, but they wouldn't need to be dramatic. Also, compare Bowser's fair to Ike's, which now does 13 damage through the whole hitbox, has better range, is disjoint, has better KBG, and has significantly lower landing lag. Making Bowser's fair as good as Ike's seems fine to me, since I don't think Ike's other moves are so much worse than Bowser's that Ike needs a better fair to compensate.

2. Substantially improve side b grab box

I personally don't care for the suggestion of making dash klaw Bowser's default side b, because having a command grab is really nice, and more to the point, the balance team will never change which one is the default anyway.

Giving klaw better range would be a tremendous gift to Bowser, especially in landing more safely. Most important is giving this move better vertical range, so that Bowser can grab opponents slightly above and below him. That would force opponents to respect Bowser's landings a lot more, since to punish, they would have to predict what landing option Bowser is going for, rather than just holding shield and reacting, as they can currently get away with.

3. Improve air speed significantly

Increase from 1.0 (same as Robin) to either 1.08 (same as Ike/R.O.B.) or 1.10 (same as Cloud without limit)

Maybe I should have listed this first, because it actually might be the most important of the three. This would help Bowser in a lot of areas he currently struggles in more than he should, not least of which is his susceptibility to juggling.

I also don't think this change would be unreasonable. Bowser's disadvantage state would still suck, just not as bad. After all, R.O.B.'s disadvantage state sucks even with the air speed I'm suggesting, and Bowser is an even bigger target. It also isn't out of line for a heavyweight, since it would be right around that of Ike, Cloud, and R.O.B., and still a lot slower than Donkey Kong (1.15 if you were wondering). It also leaves Bowser with an awful jump squat, one of the worst walk speeds, and very poor air acceleration to boot.




I don't know if Bowser would quite be S tier with these changes, but I do think he would easily be high tier. This would make him much better in the air, much better at landing, and much less overly exploitable in disadvantage. Best of all, he wouldn't be so dependent on uthrow combos for relevance.

I think these are all changes that the balance team could realistically make as well. Other characters have gone from low/mid tier to high tier because of patch changes, so that's not unreasonable. Plus they have been messing with Bowser for a lot of patches now, so it seems like they are trying to do him justice. None of my suggested changes are even as extreme as the uthrow change they already gave him, so these changes are not beyond the sort of fix they have shown themselves to be willing to do.

Plus these changes would be fun to play with, because they would give Bowser an honest but satisfyingly effective neutral game. I would much rather have these changes than see them try to cover up his flaws with extra super armor, or even with the uthrow combos they already gave him, as handy as those are.

 

[S_B]

I thought of one simple change to make Bowser S-tier:

Make firebreath spike.

Imagine how ridiculous the move would be if using it on the ledge allowed you to push a recovering opponent downward...

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Thought of an interesting idea for Fire Breath, though we would never see it due to custom moves. What if you mashed neutral special and that let Bowser shoot fire balls like the custom move. Hold B for the steady stream a la Flamethrower, mash-tap for projectiles the size of Mario. The stream could be good for edge-guarding and some defensive measures, while the Fire Balls could be useful for gimping and more offensive pressuring.

As for Down Smash, since conTAgi0n mentioned it, give it a small windbox that draws people in. Might make it a decent edgeguard move for people recovering off the top.

I'll edit in more ideas as I think of 'em, if they haven't already been listed.

 

[Zethoro]

I like Bowser the way he is, but why not do some theorycrafting anyway?

Reworkings that could make Bowser S-tier:
1. Turn Flame Breath into Bowser Fireball, a chargeable projectile that, when fully charged, is a devastating, slow, long-lasting projectile that deals massive damage (roughly 30%) and eats through other projectiles while also dealing a ton of shield damage.
When uncharged, the move would be similar to Fire Shot now, an average mid-range projectile that deals about 5%.
Adding this one move to Bowser's toolkit alone forces opponents to approach, gives him a deadly shield pressure option, greatly improves his neutral, and gives him a more legitimate chance against zoners. Smart usage of this move allows Bowser to be more aggresive, gives him some setplay (being able to throw opponents into the fireball for massive damage or break shields/create tricky edgeguard situations), and overall makes him a better character without changing the character or removing the biggest weaknesses that make Bowser a balanced character, instead further bolstering his strengths. Think about it too, when Bowser shoots fire at you in the games, he doesn't shoot some pathetic, pansy fire stream that goes a whopping 5 feet, he shoots a BIG FIREBALL OF DOOM THAT IS SO STRONG IT SHATTERS THE EARTH IT HITS. Why can't we have that?
2. All moves involving the shell have intangibility on the shell. This greatly improves Bowser's recovery, OoS game, and gives his DSmash a much-needed improvement.
3. Greatly increase the damage of his aerials, or lower the landing lag, and cause DAir to spike throughout the entirety of the move. This gives DAir a legitimate use as a spike and makes his aerials very safe and deadly on shield. Bowser is a character who should make you afraid to shield at all costs.

This is why I don't balance this game.

 

[Appdude]

He gets the command grab from pm with the bite animation from melee

 

[Zilexion]

Honestly, seeing how Nairo has used Bowser recently, I don't think he needs buffs, I just think he needs more high skill players to explore the depths of his current potential.

 

[firedude953]

There's already a thread for this

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Again, i am aware, but my patch notes involve more specific technical data, more changes and have a more attributal focus rather than just "hmm, i think this should be a thing".

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

This is not ideal. By changing DTilt to link on hit by reducing damage and KB, you completely remove the true block string DTilt 1 has into DTilt 2. This is a big part of Bowser's corner pressure game. With this, people can just shield -> roll behind us after DTilt 1 and hit us with nearly anything. You also prevent the move from beating out other moves on the ground due to the 4% change in damage. Kurogane Hammer made a video on % differences and what % gap allows you to bulldoze through weaker attacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bV2xTqIf_yg

This is significant since DTilt 1 will clean beat out jabs and other checks. Making it weaker means it will just clank, and that's horrible. This also makes the move much worse at edge guarding as the attack will not link properly at higher %s even with those values. You just nuked one of Bowser's best kill options in that situation.

FAir removing sourspot and upping the damage is horrible because you lose the reverse FAir follow-ups completely. This is one of the few advanced aspects of Bowser that, when mastered, offers a ridiculous reward scenario. You gut that damage potential and there's even less for skilled players to incorporate into Bowser's already meager skill cap.

EDIT: There really isn't much separating this from other suggestions in the other thread. It's still "hmm, I think this should be a thing," as you so elegantly worded to put down the suggestions in the mentioned thread. As such, this topic is being moved/merged.

EDIT2: TheLobsterCopter5000 Has had their post removed and thus this post will seem to be addressing thin air. Please understand.

 

[Endurrr]

Increase fall speed so he can land safer and tomahawk
Decrease endlag on dair and fair for better landing options
Decrease endlag on flame breath as well as make it push characters back slightly farther so Bowser doesn't get punished for correctly using it

 

[TheLobsterCopter5000]

Increase fall speed so he can land safer

This would also make him even more of a punching bag than he already is

 

[MERPIS]

I would start off by removing his outright terrible SH start up and landing lag issue, it takes bowser much longer to SH compared to characters like Cloud, Diddy, or Sonic, I get that he is heavy but he isn't THAT sluggish, I'd halve it or take it away completely. I would also decrease startup on his fair by 4 frames to make it come out on frame 7 rather than 11. I would also make his jab come out of frame 5 rather than 7, and I'd make the landing lag on dair 10 frames less. these changes make bowser much less vulnerable in the air and make him less linear. The biggest change I'd make to him was make him have super armor on his shell during certain moves like dair, whirling fortress and up smash, this shell can take punishment like no one's business, why doesn't it have super armor?