Marth Matchup trouble

[WeaselKing]

Hey guys, I am a sheik main here (obviously) and my friend has recently been giving me a bit of trouble as marth. It is a matchup I really hate, and since I can't really counterpick any character against marth, I am looking for some tips I can use against him. Any help would be much appreciated.

My friend likes to dash dance into grabs alot, and I started spot dodging his grabs but usually if he misses the first one he'll just grab again. What is the best way to punish a missed grab as sheik against a marth? I am also not sure how to recover well against a marth when theyre grabbing the ledge. On battlefield for example, when I recover to the side platform I just get faired and comboed out of it.

What stages are good against marth as sheik? What stage is the worst against marth?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Dreamland is good vs Marth. Stadium is the worst vs Marth (most people say). You could argue that FD is bad for Sheik though.

Shield grab Marth's dtilt if you can (if he doesn't space it, you can).

Use your own movement to combat his movement. Don't rely on spotdodges. Wavedash and do initial dashes and let the control stick reset to neutral (otherwise known as "foxtrots"). Grab Marth and d-throw combo. At low percents chain grab if Marth DIs away, and uair if he DI's anywhere else. At high percents fair, uair, or tipper up-smash.

Throw needles to harass Marth at long range. Don't approach if you don't have to.

Practice wavedashing out of shield to grab as a punish to f-smash on your shield.

 

[GHOST4700]

@ ChivalRuse What do I do if he has center stage and I'm at the ledge because needles will be too laggy and I'm afraid if I jump he'll just fair me or crouch cancel dtilt me...

 

[ChivalRuse]

Try to judge from his movement if he is trying to grab you. Some Marth players like to spam f-throw by the ledge hoping you have bad DI into a tipper. If you see that, just roll in or jump. Roll in is better against people who like to zone you with aerials and jumping is better against people who like to cover roll by d-tilting a lot.

If you don't think he'll grab, you should shield and then anticipate a moment when you can wavedash out of shield toward center stage, possibly into another shield or just into a dash. That should get you out of your predicament.

 

[$alsa]

Alright, so I actually had a ton of problems with Sheik vs Marth for a while.
There are a few things that you need to do and you need to approach it differently than you would with other characters.
If you mained Falcon before playing Sheik, then the same rule of "Whoever jumps first just lost the game" Because a lot of the time this is true, all of Sheiks aerial approaches just get shut down.

You can actually crouch cancel every move Marth has under %40 actually, so if you see a Marth running up to you with down tilt, you can actually down tilt them back if they're past CC %.
If a Marth approaches you with nair, shield, you can actually just shield grab Marth's nair, and if he crosses you up there's no problem as long as you didn't try grabbing him.

If a Marth is doing dash dance grab, all you actually need to do is boost grab.
Boost grab beats out dash dance. BG is a bit different from Jump cancelled grab, because you're not hitting the two buttons at the same time, you actually need to give a small gab between the dash attack and grab, but not big enough that you get the dash attack hit box, just enough that you get the boost, so IIRC a 3 frame gap is strongest.

I should point out that down smash isn't actually safe when Marth is low percent, because he can actually punish it after being hit by hit.

 

[ChivalRuse]

If Marth isn't doing d-tilt only and retreating aerials, there is always a way to get through his defenses. Even d-tilt sometimes can be punished if you preemptively short hop over it.

 

[$alsa]

If Marth isn't doing d-tilt only and retreating aerials, there is always a way to get through his defenses. Even d-tilt sometimes can be punished if you preemptively short hop over it.

The problem with approaching Marth from above is that after doing it once you can't really get away with it any more, cause he can cancel D-tilt super early with up tilt
And if the Marth is smart he'll intentionally whiff D-tilt at a small distance to bait out your jump.

 

[ChivalRuse]

The Marth player can't always time a d-tilt early enough to be able to dodge. At the range where you will need to start the jump to hit Marth, if you jump at this moment, and they haven't already started the d-tilt, by the time they do, they will get hit.

 

[Eonn]

If Marth isn't doing d-tilt only and retreating aerials, there is always a way to get through his defenses. Even d-tilt sometimes can be punished if you preemptively short hop over it.

So what can you do against Marth's who just like to dtilt and fadeaway fair? I always find it incredibly difficult to get in on him.

 

[ChivalRuse]

There are three different things that I like to do against walling Marths:

1. Throw/charge needles. After you do this for a while, most Marth players will feel there is an incentive to approach/pressure you.
2. Run up close to Marth and shield. If you do this too much, they might start grabbing you as you run toward them. But it's pretty good against d-tilt and retreating fair spam. Sometimes, the Marth will throw out something laggy and you can punish with wavedash out of shield or a shield grab. If you shield in spots that are awkward for Marth to grab, you basically put yourself close enough to Marth to observe him and find punish windows in his defenses.
3. Run up and short hop (position yourself so that at the peak of your jump you're at about a 45 degree angle from him). You can throw an aerial needle from this position if you are worried about him intercepting you with a fair. But if you don't think he'll go for that, you can just fast fall a spaced fair on his shield. If he crouch cancels it, you can actually dash away before he can hit you or grab you.

 

[VenomCB]

So then what about the recovery options when Marth is hanging on edge? I have issues with this as well. Cause landing on stage can easily lead to a grab or Fsmash from Marth because of how long your landing lag is.

 

[IckyCafe]

Does a falling nair work on Marth when edgegaurding? Or should I just hold the ledge and if he lands above me ledge dash to grab/ fair off ledge?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Does a falling nair work on Marth when edgegaurding? Or should I just hold the ledge and if he lands above me ledge dash to grab/ fair off ledge?

You're better off going for a bair than a nair to edgeguard. Your falling nair can trade with Marth's up-b and you might end up getting stage spiked.

So then what about the recovery options when Marth is hanging on edge? I have issues with this as well. Cause landing on stage can easily lead to a grab or Fsmash from Marth because of how long your landing lag is.

You just have to mix it up well and land where you think the Marth will have the most trouble punishing. Also, if you notice that the Marth always wavelands onto the stage to punish your landing, that means there might be an opportunity to grab the ledge.