Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2006
- Messages
- 6,289
- 3DS FC
- 1993-9028-0439
I know we've talked about this before, but I'm sure ALL of our games have developed a bit over the summer, and I was curious as to the types of mindgames you all like to use now. I've also seen a number of people asking us to rate their Marth say they aren't good at mindgames, and in videos I didn't see many mindgames, so I figured this could also help out newer players. If I see something I didn't think of, I can implement it into my game. I'll also tell a few patterns I like to use. Feel free to bite off my style as much as you want.
Fair, Dancing Blade and Shield Breaker mixups:
The best options against Marth's Fair are RD and shield. After throwing lots of Fairs (which you probably do early) see how he likes to react. If shielding is the preference, mix in shield breakers. If dodging is the preference, throw empty SHFFs and mix it up.
If your opponent likes to shield your running approaches, then throw SB outta dash. This very often gets people, since Dashing generally means Dancing Blade (which is a bad idea to spot dodge) or Fair (which is a good idea to shield.) By mixing this up, you can break shields often. I break LOTS of shields this way. Primarily, I prefer to DB low combo a few times. Some noobs never get it, and always spot dodge my approach, in which case I never need to even consider mix-ups. But those that are smart enough to shield often get owned by the shield breaker.
I lol at faster players that see the shield breaker start up and spot dodge. Just charge the breaker a bit, so it hits them as they come outta the spot dodge.
When mixed in with Fair and Dancing Blade, shield breaker is the ultimate mindgame tool. Not to mention, even if they shield your shield breaker, and it doesn't break their shield, they can't shield your fairs or dancing blades for a while. A smart player will realize this, and start dodging around trying to regain their shield as you get to play aggro for a while, but it allows you to use some pretty nasty mindgames, like running past your opponent who is probably going to RD backwards, and Hyphen Smashing (UpSmash outta dash).
Foxtrot Studder-stepped Fsmash and Dsmash Mixups:
If your opponent likes to RD behind you, condition them to do this with Fair and Dancing Blade the same way. Now, instead of throwing SB (because that will ALSO miss if they RD behind you) then do empty SHFF and Dsmash, or walk and Dtilt to Dsmash.
Also, (this takes practice, and I haven't mastered it yet), if you can Foxtrot well, and you've conditioned your opponent to RD behind you, then you can fake a dash, but Foxtrot, and stutter step Fsmash backward. Sometimes, I just walk up to my opponent and Fsmash backward as well. It's relatively effective. I also seem to catch MANY people with a walking Dsmash. It comes out hyper quick, and not really punishable from tipper range if dodged. It shield pokes if the shield is low, but often, my opponent doesn't react quick enough (and I mean high level opponents and consistently often).
Fair and Nair mix-ups:
I love to fly at my opponent's with Fairs, and retreat the second one, to reset the position, chipping at the shield or landing a hit. Naturally, a smart opponent will figure out that to break this, you'll have to RD behind me, and RD early enough so you don't get hit by the second retreated Fair,, so often, I throw SHFFed Nairs, as a mindgame, but do not approach, so they roll right into the second slice. This is hyper effective, and I rarely see other Marth players do it. Sometimes, I don't even have to throw fairs, just do this often against people that like to RD behind you when you jump. It's a super safe option.
Dtilt to Usmash mixups:
Very simple. After initating a dtilt trap, you know all of your glorious options. I recommend sometimes using Upsmash as one of them, as it can stop almost ANY defense your opponent uses besides shielding (and shielding doesn't help in a dtilt trap situation). It owns jumping (their best option) and if you hyphen smash, it can own RDing. You must predict well and be fast for this mixup, so pay close attention to your opponent's dodging habits.
Ftilt and Jab mixups:
Lately, I've been realizing Marth's jab is a lot better than I originally thought. It works very similar to his Ftilt, without the power, but without the other drawbacks. I find walking up to a shield, and Jabing at maximum spacing is hilariously effective, especially if you mindgame people by walking up to the shield and throwing ftilt at max spacing, so they think they can punish, and get hit by the second swing of the jab.
Unfinished Dancing Blade to reverse Dancing Blade mixups:
So, I started doing this as a joke, because a) Dancing Blade is sexy and b) I try to teach my friends not to RD so much. But I've caught more than enough people in hitting with the first three parts of dancing blade quite a few times in a row, because they RD. I use forward, forward, down, because the down is the safest retreat. From here, the opponent thinks they are free, and they proceed to RD to 'safety' where I can just dash up and do it again. By not hitting they with the 4th hit, they stay grounded, and get owned by DB over and over. Once, I laughed at my opponent as I use only the first hit of Dancing Blade, in alternating direction, as they KEPT RD to the other side of me and hit them 4 times in a row. Then they RDed away, but I chased with DB and stopped on three. They RDed to the other side of me again, and I threw a tipper reverse Fsmash for the major lolz.
Also, in reference to most of the above mixups, after you died, most people will stand near the ledge to give you the most distance to travel so you can't abuse all of your invincibility. 90% of the time, non-pros will RD behind you. Make sure you punish this by waiting for the RD, and then reverse fsmashing, dsmashing, DBing, SHFF Nairing in place, or even Upsmashing.
(As a side note, when my brother respawns, he likes to walk right up to the opponent and stand there as they hold their shield. Right when his invincibility frames run off, he knows they'll drop the shield and attack. He attacks then, in the shield drop lag. The mindgame is HILARIOUS and epic. I gotta try it.)
Grab mixups:
You know what you can do outta release grabs on certain characters, and if you don't, go ask EL. I'm not going to go into those mixups, as it's more obvious and personal taste.
Fthrow to Fsmash or Fthrow chain throw work on many characters. At lower percent, I never pummel (grab attack), so my opponent doesn't expect them, and throw quickly, so they neglect to attempt breaking free. At higher percent, I pummel lots, to refresh Dancing Blade. Very, very sexy result of a fresh Dancing Blade at higher %, which is rare.
Dthrow or Backthrow to Fsmash. Works on some characters that fthrow wouldn't work on, but they use the wrong DI to evade. 0-4% only.
Uthrow. LOL @ not seeing this coming. Won't K.O. till absurd damage, but decent if you've been spamming Dancing Blade and hit with it like 15 times, lol.
Pseudo fthrow chain grab. Fthrow, walk and shield, to shield grab. Rinse and repeat.
Pseudo dthrow chain grab (doesn't work on larger characters, as I believe Dthrow has more ending lag on larger characters). On unsuspecting opponent's (which should be most of them, because I've NEVER seen another Marth do this) Dthrow reverse dashgrab Dthrow will link a few times, but it can be escaped. I believe on Falco, Marth, and a few other characters, the first two are actually guaranteed. Remember that there's more ending lag on the Dthrow if throwing larger characters.
(now for my favorite) Fthrow to Dancing Blade or SHDancing Blade. I know, you're probably thinking SHDancing Blade, ew wtf. But after a Fthrow, most people follow up with a Fair, and similarly how Dancing Blade owns a Spot dodge, it owns an airdodge, because you can easily follow it up to hit them in the lag before they can do anything after an air dodge.
Fthrow to Shield Breaker. Unlike Fair, Shield Breaker can be charged, to wait out the Airdodge, and packs a bigger punch, AND is usually not stale, AND hits from farther, so it works at higher percentages. Even if your opponent shields it (lol) it's still a good move, so mix it in after your fthrows after a while.
Dthrow to reverse SB. Epic mindgame. Highly unconventional ftw.
Dthrow to reverse dtilt. Works best if your opponent likes Airdodge a lot for no reason. Make sure to space appropriately.
Also, not a mixup, but lately I've been connecting a lot of Dair to Fsmash (risky I know). Anyone know if this is a legit combo at certain %? I know Dair has lots of ending lag, but it also has additional hit stun due to being a meteor smash. It might be more of a legit link to utilt or ftilt, since they come out a little faster. I gotta test more.
Fair, Dancing Blade and Shield Breaker mixups:
The best options against Marth's Fair are RD and shield. After throwing lots of Fairs (which you probably do early) see how he likes to react. If shielding is the preference, mix in shield breakers. If dodging is the preference, throw empty SHFFs and mix it up.
If your opponent likes to shield your running approaches, then throw SB outta dash. This very often gets people, since Dashing generally means Dancing Blade (which is a bad idea to spot dodge) or Fair (which is a good idea to shield.) By mixing this up, you can break shields often. I break LOTS of shields this way. Primarily, I prefer to DB low combo a few times. Some noobs never get it, and always spot dodge my approach, in which case I never need to even consider mix-ups. But those that are smart enough to shield often get owned by the shield breaker.
I lol at faster players that see the shield breaker start up and spot dodge. Just charge the breaker a bit, so it hits them as they come outta the spot dodge.
When mixed in with Fair and Dancing Blade, shield breaker is the ultimate mindgame tool. Not to mention, even if they shield your shield breaker, and it doesn't break their shield, they can't shield your fairs or dancing blades for a while. A smart player will realize this, and start dodging around trying to regain their shield as you get to play aggro for a while, but it allows you to use some pretty nasty mindgames, like running past your opponent who is probably going to RD backwards, and Hyphen Smashing (UpSmash outta dash).
Foxtrot Studder-stepped Fsmash and Dsmash Mixups:
If your opponent likes to RD behind you, condition them to do this with Fair and Dancing Blade the same way. Now, instead of throwing SB (because that will ALSO miss if they RD behind you) then do empty SHFF and Dsmash, or walk and Dtilt to Dsmash.
Also, (this takes practice, and I haven't mastered it yet), if you can Foxtrot well, and you've conditioned your opponent to RD behind you, then you can fake a dash, but Foxtrot, and stutter step Fsmash backward. Sometimes, I just walk up to my opponent and Fsmash backward as well. It's relatively effective. I also seem to catch MANY people with a walking Dsmash. It comes out hyper quick, and not really punishable from tipper range if dodged. It shield pokes if the shield is low, but often, my opponent doesn't react quick enough (and I mean high level opponents and consistently often).
Fair and Nair mix-ups:
I love to fly at my opponent's with Fairs, and retreat the second one, to reset the position, chipping at the shield or landing a hit. Naturally, a smart opponent will figure out that to break this, you'll have to RD behind me, and RD early enough so you don't get hit by the second retreated Fair,, so often, I throw SHFFed Nairs, as a mindgame, but do not approach, so they roll right into the second slice. This is hyper effective, and I rarely see other Marth players do it. Sometimes, I don't even have to throw fairs, just do this often against people that like to RD behind you when you jump. It's a super safe option.
Dtilt to Usmash mixups:
Very simple. After initating a dtilt trap, you know all of your glorious options. I recommend sometimes using Upsmash as one of them, as it can stop almost ANY defense your opponent uses besides shielding (and shielding doesn't help in a dtilt trap situation). It owns jumping (their best option) and if you hyphen smash, it can own RDing. You must predict well and be fast for this mixup, so pay close attention to your opponent's dodging habits.
Ftilt and Jab mixups:
Lately, I've been realizing Marth's jab is a lot better than I originally thought. It works very similar to his Ftilt, without the power, but without the other drawbacks. I find walking up to a shield, and Jabing at maximum spacing is hilariously effective, especially if you mindgame people by walking up to the shield and throwing ftilt at max spacing, so they think they can punish, and get hit by the second swing of the jab.
Unfinished Dancing Blade to reverse Dancing Blade mixups:
So, I started doing this as a joke, because a) Dancing Blade is sexy and b) I try to teach my friends not to RD so much. But I've caught more than enough people in hitting with the first three parts of dancing blade quite a few times in a row, because they RD. I use forward, forward, down, because the down is the safest retreat. From here, the opponent thinks they are free, and they proceed to RD to 'safety' where I can just dash up and do it again. By not hitting they with the 4th hit, they stay grounded, and get owned by DB over and over. Once, I laughed at my opponent as I use only the first hit of Dancing Blade, in alternating direction, as they KEPT RD to the other side of me and hit them 4 times in a row. Then they RDed away, but I chased with DB and stopped on three. They RDed to the other side of me again, and I threw a tipper reverse Fsmash for the major lolz.
Also, in reference to most of the above mixups, after you died, most people will stand near the ledge to give you the most distance to travel so you can't abuse all of your invincibility. 90% of the time, non-pros will RD behind you. Make sure you punish this by waiting for the RD, and then reverse fsmashing, dsmashing, DBing, SHFF Nairing in place, or even Upsmashing.
(As a side note, when my brother respawns, he likes to walk right up to the opponent and stand there as they hold their shield. Right when his invincibility frames run off, he knows they'll drop the shield and attack. He attacks then, in the shield drop lag. The mindgame is HILARIOUS and epic. I gotta try it.)
Grab mixups:
You know what you can do outta release grabs on certain characters, and if you don't, go ask EL. I'm not going to go into those mixups, as it's more obvious and personal taste.
Fthrow to Fsmash or Fthrow chain throw work on many characters. At lower percent, I never pummel (grab attack), so my opponent doesn't expect them, and throw quickly, so they neglect to attempt breaking free. At higher percent, I pummel lots, to refresh Dancing Blade. Very, very sexy result of a fresh Dancing Blade at higher %, which is rare.
Dthrow or Backthrow to Fsmash. Works on some characters that fthrow wouldn't work on, but they use the wrong DI to evade. 0-4% only.
Uthrow. LOL @ not seeing this coming. Won't K.O. till absurd damage, but decent if you've been spamming Dancing Blade and hit with it like 15 times, lol.
Pseudo fthrow chain grab. Fthrow, walk and shield, to shield grab. Rinse and repeat.
Pseudo dthrow chain grab (doesn't work on larger characters, as I believe Dthrow has more ending lag on larger characters). On unsuspecting opponent's (which should be most of them, because I've NEVER seen another Marth do this) Dthrow reverse dashgrab Dthrow will link a few times, but it can be escaped. I believe on Falco, Marth, and a few other characters, the first two are actually guaranteed. Remember that there's more ending lag on the Dthrow if throwing larger characters.
(now for my favorite) Fthrow to Dancing Blade or SHDancing Blade. I know, you're probably thinking SHDancing Blade, ew wtf. But after a Fthrow, most people follow up with a Fair, and similarly how Dancing Blade owns a Spot dodge, it owns an airdodge, because you can easily follow it up to hit them in the lag before they can do anything after an air dodge.
Fthrow to Shield Breaker. Unlike Fair, Shield Breaker can be charged, to wait out the Airdodge, and packs a bigger punch, AND is usually not stale, AND hits from farther, so it works at higher percentages. Even if your opponent shields it (lol) it's still a good move, so mix it in after your fthrows after a while.
Dthrow to reverse SB. Epic mindgame. Highly unconventional ftw.
Dthrow to reverse dtilt. Works best if your opponent likes Airdodge a lot for no reason. Make sure to space appropriately.
Also, not a mixup, but lately I've been connecting a lot of Dair to Fsmash (risky I know). Anyone know if this is a legit combo at certain %? I know Dair has lots of ending lag, but it also has additional hit stun due to being a meteor smash. It might be more of a legit link to utilt or ftilt, since they come out a little faster. I gotta test more.
. And if the marth boards are interested pierce has 3 more vids up on youtube. 
