Match-Up Re-Discussion: Jigglypuff

[Sinister Slush]

Link For First Jigglypuff Discussion
Jigglypuff Vs Yoshi

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Here we shall discuss Yoshi vs Jigglypuff, and why her Japanese Name Is related to Pudding.

Jigglypuff VS Yoshi Ratio: +2/Medium Advantage for Yoshi
Yoshi Ratios
Jigglypuff Ratios

Can Yoshi CG Jigglypuff?: No
GR Options Off Stage: Free UAir On and Off Stage.

Overall Summary

Videos

Ratio
Coming Soon

 

[Delta-cod]

Jigglypuff is actually pretty awkward to fight against because of her floatiness/air mobility. It can sometimes be hard to kill her because she's good at dodging our conventional kill moves. Luckily, she's light, and we have GR > Uair.

Be careful when recovering. Don't do anything stupid to be caught offstage without a jump.

Don't get rested. This means not doing stupidly punishable and laggy things. Otherwise, you got rested cuz you got MASSIVELY outplayed.

I'd say we have a slight advantage in this, if only due to difference in kill power. +1

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

If you do stuff like jab canceling, bair or dair while puff is at a lower % she can SDI into you and Rest. Things to know ^^

 

[Sharky]

this mu is stupidly annoying to play. San seconds jiggs to solely to troll people, and he camps the **** out of me. I'd give yoshi the slight edge cause of better killpower and he can somewhat keep up with jiggs mobility wise.

 

[Yikarur]

I hate Jiggs Air mobility and I lost once to one because I was so unlucky to get killed twice by dair to trip to rest x/
The Air Mobility is so annoying, I'm not used to my opponent being as fast as me haha.
so don't rely on GR Uair On-Stage, it's stupidly hard to get this done. (the timing is waaaay to strict). Of Stage is easy though but try to grab jiggs on the ledge lol.
Yoshis biggest pro's are somehow nullfied in this match-up and her fair is a decent killmove (mostly for revival kills because fair is always stale lol)

+1 imo.

 

[Z'zgashi]

+2, we have superior mobility, range, combo ability, can play really safe, and have a much easier time scoring kills than a ton of other mu's. We also can play a really good ledge game, and if we do it right, its hard as hell for jiggs to reach the ledge due to a lack of autosnap. Really, you just have to constantly move and throw eggs/egg lays/nairs/bairs and capitalize on punishes.

^Yika, I can GR > uair 4/5 times consistently, its really not hard if you have a jiggs main nearby that you play a lot.

 

[Poltergust]

Yeah, grab-release -> u-air on Jigglypuff can be gotten down with practice. I land it basically all the time now. Having a guaranteed kill at 85% is really nice to have (especially since Yoshi tends to live twice as long against Jigglypuff).

There's not a lot that Jigglypuff can do as long as we stay grounded and play defensively. Since Jigglypuff has no good ground approaches, the fact that she has to approach through the air severely limits her options. Her f-air tends to get stale, and since that's her only good kill move we live for a long time.

Rest is a problem sometimes, but it's rather easy to avoid the set-ups for it and avoid doing moves that would let Jigglypuff gain an opening.

Heck, despite her good recovery it's really easy to d-air -> footstool her if she recovers level with the stage. One footstool is usually all that's needed depending on the number of jumps she has. Don't expect Jigglypuff to recover low often, though.

To be honest, I see this match-up to be closer to +3 than +1. There hasn't been a single instance in which I felt Jigglypuff was even a minor threat out of all the ones I've played (and I've surprisingly played a lot). +2 seems fine, though.

 

[Yikarur]

Theorycrafting all the way.
I wanted to stop reading at

"Heck, despite her good recovery it's really easy to d-air -> footstool her if she recovers level with the stage. One footstool is usually all that's needed depending on the number of jumps she has. Don't expect Jigglypuff to recover low often, though."

but I endured the rest.

 

[smokey da bear]

i think that this MU is +2, jiggs is very easy to predict making it stupidly hard for her to kill us if we know her options and space ourselves. yoshi's ground game also ***** jiggs and a good punish if you read their pound sometimes is a ground pound for another kill move

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Theorycrafting all the way.
I wanted to stop reading at

"Heck, despite her good recovery it's really easy to d-air -> footstool her if she recovers level with the stage. One footstool is usually all that's needed depending on the number of jumps she has. Don't expect Jigglypuff to recover low often, though."

but I endured the rest.

Just because Polt said it doesn't make it theorycraft. I don't agree with her being easy to dair > footstool though. If she's at a high enough % for her to not be able to SDI the Dair, she gets sent too low to follow up with a footstool.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Yika, its MUCH easier to gimp jiggs than you'd think. When she recovers high, that's another story, but we can still wall her well and force her to either a bad position or the ledge if we play it correctly. When jiggs is forced to recover low, her lack of a safe snap and her lack of an up b recovery hurt her badly, as one read can mean a stock. Not to mention when shes onstage a read can still lead to death quite easily.

 

[Delta-cod]

I feel like I should play the next Yoshi mains I see with Jiggs now.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I could help with that. I third jiggs and have some good accomplishments with her. (We had a low tier minus yoshi tournament and I still took 3rd with Jiggs/Mario lol) I beat X with my jiggs

 

[Chuee]

Guys its not Jigglypuff, its Jigglerpuff

 

[Z'zgashi]

Whoops, it's an honest mistake.

 

[Chuee]

I feel that this MU is a -2 for Yoshi because of Jigglerpuffs airplanking abilities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--VDc1CyYgU

 

[Sharky]

I feel like I should play the next Yoshi mains I see with Jiggs now.

I'll play your luigi with Jiggs

 

[Delta-cod]

K, back to seriousness guys.

It's really not that easy to gimp Jiggs, at all. Rising Pound, multiple jumps, and low fall speed all make for a flexible recovery, even when recovering level with the stage. We can't stall out there forever, and she certainly beats us in hangtime offstage.

We can't really camp Jiggs that well either. Sure, we don't have to approach, but she's amazing at dodging eggs, and again, her hangtime in air allows her to flexibly avoid our zoning.

 

[Depster]

I think Jiggs is mad easy... I don't remember why though.

 

[Z'zgashi]

She's not easy to gimp, just a lot easier than you'd think. There's a difference.

And jiggs isn't much of a treat... Ever really. We outplay her in every category and have higher damage output, combo ability, and kill potential to boot. Jiggs is a solid +2, I dont even think I lean towards +1 or +3 to be honest, she perfectly center of +2 imo.

 

[Delta-cod]

How are you going to combo Jiggs? A FF Bair > w/e chain doesn't really count, we do that to everyone. Her weaving game is similar to Wario's except somewhat less effective. However, it makes it difficult for us to contend with her in the air. She actually beats us out directly in the air horizontally, and if we're below, all she has to do is move away, it's not a problem. She's the one with combo potential on us, actually, with low percent and even stale Bair chains.

You're also not taking into account her ability to just avoid us. 5 jumps + good air mobility = good ability to run the clock. If we couldn't kill her at around 90% off a grab, or just even early in general, this MU would be tedious and painstaking. Even with our kill power it is.

 

[Depster]

This is a matchup where Yoshi has to stay grounded though. I don't think Jigglypuff has any sort of good ground approach. Honestly, all you have to do is stand there and throw eggs and eventually jiggly will have to approach, which won't work against a character like Yoshi who has a lot of mobility, not to mention that usmash and pivot grab shut her approach down anyway.

 

[Sharky]

jiggs has the aerial mobility to avoid literally anything we can throw at her though, and therefore can bait most anything out of us and punish it on the ground. We need to take to the air as well to combat her mobility with ours.

btw you haven't played a jiggs unless you've played a super campy jiggs. just saying

 

[Delta-cod]

Why does Jigglypuff have to approach? Grounded? She's good at dodging eggs AND at avoiding the typical traps that our egg zoning creates. Her typical move spacing puts her at the blindspot of our grabs. Usmash is good but VERY committal. They don't shut down her approach because her approach isn't particularly linear. That's like saying pivot grab beats Wario's approach. Have you seen their bait and run away game? It doesn't work like that. Jigglypuff's style is the reason WHY this matchup can be tedious.

You're not thinking campy enough.

Oh damn, Sharky with the ninja backup. <3

 

[Scatz]

Staying grounded won't change a thing. This isn't like Wario where it's easier to predict where they will land. Ground wise, Lightly throw eggs are about the safest you can do to keep a little bit of air occupied.

 

[Kaptain]

I don't know the match up very well, but as a jiggs i will go for the gimp almost EVERY time, since you don't really have a viable up-b.

 

[Yikarur]

I don't know the match up very well, but as a jiggs i will go for the gimp almost EVERY time, since you don't really have a viable up-b.

your argument is invalid! (since when is a "viable up-B" necessary to not get gimped? you don't know Yoshi )

 

[Supreme Dirt]

How much damage beats your DJ's heavy armour?

 

[Yikarur]

our heavy armour is knockback depended and it breaks by Kirbys fresh upsmash at about 44% iirc.
it breaks at a knockback of 76km/h (don't have the mph number)

 

[T-block]

I don't know the match up very well, but as a jiggs i will go for the gimp almost EVERY time, since you don't really have a viable up-b.

lol at a jigglypuff saying this =P

I used to think this match was just slight disadvantage for Jigglypuff, but I agree with pretty much everything Polt says.

 

[Noobicidal]

How much damage beats your DJ's heavy armour?

In regards to Jigglypuff, here's a comprehensive list.

Jabs (1st/2nd/3rd) - >300
Ftilt - 107%
Dtilt - 297%
Utilt - 57%
Dash Attack - 79%
Fsmash - 57%
Usmash - 60%
Dsmash - 107%
Nair - 105%
Nair (soft) - 251%
Fair - 57%
Fair (soft) - 246%
Dair - Sporadic. It's >300 for single hits, but if all hits connect, it can break through as soon as 110%. I'll test more in the future.
Bair - 99%
Uair - 82%
Neutral B - 36% (Assuming a fully-charged Rollout)
Forward B - 72% (No difference between aerial and grounded)
Down B - 0%
Up B - N/A

Spoiler

I did the numbers myself.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Okay since no one is actually going to make sense of how these are run i'm going to make a suggestion.

When we open one of these threads, post the ratio for this that the BBR put forth and the old match-up summary if we have it. Now after we put that up we see if we agree on the ratio for the most part. If yes cool we can get to discussing what the matchup is all about. If not we have a debate-ish thing going on(kinda like in this one). Now if the matchup ratio changes we replace it in the main sticky(maybe bring it to the attention of the other board or the BBR idk).

After all the discussion we evaluate everything said and make a new Summary(Unless the matchup really hasn't changed much and we keep the old one). The summary should probably be re written but i guess we could just quote all the really important/influential posts from the thread. I still say it should be rewritten by the most knowledgeable of the MatchUp, someone we designate for this certain matchup or someone we designate for all of them.


Thoughts?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Okay since no one is actually going to make sense of how these are run i'm going to make a suggestion.

When we open one of these threads, post the ratio for this that the BBR put forth and the old match-up summary if we have it.

Link For First Jigglypuff Discussion
Jigglypuff Vs Yoshi

Jigglypuff VS Yoshi Ratio: +2/Medium Advantage for Yoshi
Yoshi Ratios
Jigglypuff Ratios

Now after we put that up we see if we agree on the ratio for the most part. If yes cool we can get to discussing what the matchup is all about. If not we have a debate-ish thing going on(kinda like in this one). Now if the matchup ratio changes we replace it in the main sticky(maybe bring it to the attention of the other board or the BBR idk).

After all the discussion we evaluate everything said and make a new Summary(Unless the matchup really hasn't changed much and we keep the old one). The summary should probably be re written but i guess we could just quote all the really important/influential posts from the thread. I still say it should be rewritten by the most knowledgeable of the MatchUp, someone we designate for this certain matchup or someone we designate for all of them.

Overall Summary

Ratio
Coming Soon

Does noone check the OP anymore?
For having someone in charge of a Match Up, Probably the only ones would be Polt Scatz Maybe Yika or Delta. And Satan forbid, Me.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

(kinda like in this one)

What you basically did was ignore all the actual ideas i put =/. Now i noticed you had some of the stuff in the OP and that's cool and all (also why i said i guess we can quote people instead of a real summary) but what I'm trying to say is the threads could use a little more structure. The Ike and Jiggs threads are both kinda going in different directions and it would be easier if they didn't. Wanna reread what i put and actually think about it this time?

 

[MX778]

Yeah, grab-release -> u-air on Jigglypuff can be gotten down with practice. I land it basically all the time now. Having a guaranteed kill at 85% is really nice to have (especially since Yoshi tends to live twice as long against Jigglypuff).

There's not a lot that Jigglypuff can do as long as we stay grounded and play defensively. Since Jigglypuff has no good ground approaches, the fact that she has to approach through the air severely limits her options. Her f-air tends to get stale, and since that's her only good kill move we live for a long time.

Rest is a problem sometimes, but it's rather easy to avoid the set-ups for it and avoid doing moves that would let Jigglypuff gain an opening.

Heck, despite her good recovery it's really easy to d-air -> footstool her if she recovers level with the stage. One footstool is usually all that's needed depending on the number of jumps she has. Don't expect Jigglypuff to recover low often, though.

To be honest, I see this match-up to be closer to +3 than +1. There hasn't been a single instance in which I felt Jigglypuff was even a minor threat out of all the ones I've played (and I've surprisingly played a lot). +2 seems fine, though.

I agree to a point, but I honestly do not think it's THAT easy. Since there alot of things to consider.

For starters, Jigglypuff would be almost no different than Sonic in this matchup. Yeah, we can egg camp her and play defensively, (This is good, don't get me wrong ) if Jiggs has the lead, she doesn't NEED to approach at all. Which would then make this match up more difficult because we can't get to her if she's camping/flying around all over the place.

Second, her combo ability isn't exactly terrible either. Jigglypuff can hit Yoshi's blindspot just as easily as Kirby can. If a Jigglypuff can hit you with say like...A fair at about 35% up,
it could potentially mean death if you're not careful enough.

At high percents, you want to stay onstage and out of the air in general. Anywhere above the ground is in the "Jiggly territory". Though, her biggest ground threat moves are her Dash Attack and DACUS Usmash. So just watch out for those moves. The main move that leads to rest is her Dair. When at high percents, AVOID THE DAIR AT ALL COSTS. Going offstage for a gimp Jigglypuff is itself a very risky idea since that's Jiggly's main territory. You screw up even slightly, and your stock can pretty much be declared gone.

Buuuuut, with all that being said, I'd give this MU +1 in Yoshi's favor.

 

[Delta-cod]

Jigglypuff actually hits Yoshi's blindspot more easily than Kirby because of her air mobility. Kirby doesn't move as fast or weave as well as she does; he's more vertical. This makes Jiggs a lot harder to camp effectively because one mistossed or egg angle that she reads can lead to her getting in and putting on some hurt. And once she gets the lead, you're gonna have some problems.

 

[Poltergust]

For starters, Jigglypuff would be almost no different than Sonic in this matchup. Yeah, we can egg camp her and play defensively, (This is good, don't get me wrong )

Uh... we can't egg camp Sonic. He's way too fast on the ground for us to do so (unless he's in the air). But yeah, we can egg camp Jigglypuff and play a very good defensive game against her.

if Jiggs has the lead, she doesn't NEED to approach at all. Which would then make this match up more difficult because we can't get to her if she's camping/flying around all over the place.

True, but to be honest she's easier to hit than Wario because, despite having multiple jumps, she still has trouble landing safely. Jigglypuff is not too hard to hit with eggs, and she really can't punished whiffed ones like Wario can since she's so floaty.

Second, her combo ability isn't exactly terrible either. Jigglypuff can hit Yoshi's blindspot just as easily as Kirby can. If a Jigglypuff can hit you with say like...A fair at about 35% up,
it could potentially mean death if you're not careful enough.

35%? I'm assuming you mean a follow-up edge-guard comes afterwards, right? In any case, Jigglypuff may be good at stringing at low percents, that really doesn't mean anything to Yoshi if he can just double-jump out of it.

Incidentally, I'm assuming you mean the up-diagonal blindspot in front of Yoshi, correct? I'll address that below.

At high percents, you want to stay onstage and out of the air in general. Anywhere above the ground is in the "Jiggly territory". Though, her biggest ground threat moves are her Dash Attack and DACUS Usmash. So just watch out for those moves.

You should also watch out for grabs, too. She has a surprisingly large grab range.

The main move that leads to rest is her Dair. When at high percents, AVOID THE DAIR AT ALL COSTS. Going offstage for a gimp Jigglypuff is itself a very risky idea since that's Jiggly's main territory. You screw up even slightly, and your stock can pretty much be declared gone.

True, but I'd think it would be easy to SDI the d-air.

Anyways, it's only risky to attempt to gimp Jigglypuff off-stage if she is above you (in which case why are you even off-stage in the first place?). If she is level with the stage or below you it really is easy to land a d-air on her. It goes through her Pound and as long as you don't fast-fall it (or fast-fall it late) you should be able to easily DJAD back onto the stage. As long as Jigglypuff is not on the same horizontal plane as you you should be fine.

Buuuuut, with all that being said, I'd give this MU +1 in Yoshi's favor.

I don't think it's as hard as you say it is. Every single time I play this match-up I've always felt like the dominant character. It really doesn't seem like a remotely even match-up at all.

Jigglypuff actually hits Yoshi's blindspot more easily than Kirby because of her air mobility. Kirby doesn't move as fast or weave as well as she does; he's more vertical. This makes Jiggs a lot harder to camp effectively because one mistossed or egg angle that she reads can lead to her getting in and putting on some hurt.

About this blindspot... I really don't think it's as much of a problem that you guys make it out to be. Spaced f-tilts or well-timed up-smashes should be able to cover it (and depending on the move, u-tilt can work, too). That said, I think Kirby is superior at exploiting this when compared to Jigglypuff because, even though his air mobility suck in comparison, he falls a lot faster than Jigglypuff (and has a better move for exploiting it too: b-air). Jigglypuff is simply too floaty to apply continuous pressure to Yoshi for an extended period of time (if she had a better fast-fall this may be a different story, but her fast-fall barely increases her fall-speed), not to mention that if Yoshi reads her it can possible either kill her or take a large chunk of her life away.

You make it seem that Yoshi's the one who's up to lose the most in this situation when it's really Jigglypuff who's risking a lot to get some damage in (as is the case for the majority of the match).

And once she gets the lead, you're gonna have some problems.

Yeah, Jigglypuff can get pretty annoying if she has the lead due to her planking abilities, but, thankfully, she's not on Meta Knight's level, so it should still be very possible to punish her planking. Just try not to get killed in the process.