Match-Up Re-Discussion: Link

[Sinister Slush]

Link For First Link Vs Yoshi Discussion
Link Vs Yoshi

Here we shall discuss Yoshi Vs Link, and why he Can't have Nice things.

Link Vs Yoshi Ratio: +2/Medium Advantage
Yoshi Ratios
Link Ratios

Can Yoshi CG Link?: Yes
GR Options Off Stage:

Overall Summary


Link Vs Yoshi Videos


Ratio
Coming Soon

 

[Rizen]

First!

Advice to Yoshi players:
Learn the CG, this is what gives you an advantage of 6/4 Yoshi.

Link offstage is terrible; CG him off stage and even a well-spaced Nair can kill him. Spiking Link is effective but his recovery's so momentum driven that it's not always necessary. Link will throw projectiles/Zair etc to protect himself, I think your Nair eats our boomerang/arrows. Link can DI and momentum cancel to live forever- easily past 180%. Link can also 'whiplash' tether the stage if Yoshi Dtilts/Dsmashes him off. In other words, Link's recovery is terrible but he has a lot of tactics to help make up for it. Pressure Link offstage.

Link's good at punishing airdodges/spotdodges. Dair has strait 51 frames of mean attack, SpinAttacks punish airdodge>landings, Nair/Fair/Bair and projectiles work well too. But Link's air movement is c***: Use your excellent air movement to avoid these traps. Also our Uair beats anything Yoshi can do while directly above Link.

Link can deal with planking. He has 3 adjustable projectiles that work together. Link will find safe/mostly safe ground and spam Yoshi back on stage so don't plan on planking long.

Eggs>projectiles but Zair>eggs when spaced right. The spamming battle is heavily based on who has momentum. We're about even but in different ways, overall I'd say Link slightly wins.

Yoshi wins in close combat easily. Link has to play a difficult spacing game where we're just out of Yoshi's range. Again, yoshi's CG is really good for this MU. For Link being grabbed means being CGed offstage.

Yoshi's heavy but Link does have good KOing power if he lands the hit. Beware of Link's arrow lock (boomerang hits, followed by an arrow=forced stand up or free hit for Link), jab lock, footstool bomb>Dair, and chains like jab cancels, Zair>attack, bomb>attack.

Stages: Frigate is an easy win for yoshi. But it will probable be banned. Lylat/YI should favor Yoshi. Other stages are dependent on the players, Link and Yoshi both like the same stages. Even Brinstar. FD gives Link room to spam but at the risk of a long CG trip. Walk-off stages will help Yoshi's CG kill. As Link I'd CP Brinstar or PS1 but there really isn't a good legal CP vs Yoshi.

Be agressive, keep your momentum, hit/chain and run (or rather jump), go for CGs, DON'T RUN INTO LINK'S ATTACKS- we love spacing traps. That's my advice.

6/4 Yoshi.

 

[Beat11]

More on Yoshi's grab. His grab is mostly a defensive grab to catch advancing opponents. Seeing as how his other grabs suck, he will rely on this grab to get them without the horrible downtime from the others. But, the hard part comes in with the fact that Link will hardly ever fall for those due to his playing style. He'll never approach or advance on Yoshi very often and Zair outranges it making the task of getting grabs on Link hard than one would think.

CQC wise, Yoshi should beat Link solidly. Though if Link catches Yoshi in his shield (which a good Yoshi should never get caught in this situation anyway) Jab cancels can effectively beat everything he has because of his terrible shield game. He either gets shield broken or take the punishment which isn't that much anyway. Spotdodges can be punished by Jab cancel into Dsmash or something. Roll can be punished by running grabs or pivot boost jab. Yoshi's jab should cause Link much trouble up close where only powershielding is valuable for a CQC option. Dtilts and Ftilts should see to it that Link suffer from this range well.

Overall, I see it as even or maybe slight Yoshi's advantage because even tho grab releases are bad, the drawback comes when people realize how hard Link is to grab if he plays the fortress game thus making the CGs not all that critical and devastating in this MU.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Zair outranges it

Upsmashing Zairs is fun lol.
Uhh as for the grab thing there is this godly annoying spacing that Yoshis put themselves at makes avoiding a random Dash Grab almost impossible without a read. Pivot grabs can also be used to Punish landings.

Honestly I think this matchup is pretty easy. Your camping is the only annoying thing. Even that's easy to deal with when i'm not being Hyperactive for no reason and keep going for random bairs and what not, cause really if either of us are stupid with approaching it kinda hurts (a little bit more for you because it usually nets us a grab)

 

[Delta-cod]

Uhh as for the grab thing there is this godly annoying spacing that Yoshis put themselves at makes avoiding a random Dash Grab almost impossible without a read. Pivot grabs can also be used to Punish landings.

I was going to comment on the defensive grabs only thing, but Celes already said what I needed to.

As for the planking thing, I don't feel like Link necessarily beats our planking easily. I do feel like the projectile wall effectively blocks our eggs (Ledge Planking), so there's not really much point to it anyways. I don't really think Link pressures us too well if we're sitting on the ledge, but I could be wrong since I've never actually done it. I'd pretty much say that unless Link is spacing us for a get up punish, there's no need for us to plank. If he is, then planking would be effective to break up that spacing.

The first two posts are godlike. They cover a lot of the match up correctly.

I don't have much else to say. Stage discussion would be nice, since I can't really think of where I'd CP Link to. I feel like we have the advantage on most CPs because we're just so much more mobile than Link, but I don't know all of Link's tricks.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Stage discussion....I can't say there's a stage i feel like we lose on. Arizen says he likes Brinstar. Maybe we lose there? lol idk i have better stage knowledge on Hanebow. I always ban Brinstar vs everyone lol. I stay Mostly on neutrals. The fanciest I'd go Is Delfino. Idk. I feel like the first post just killed matchup discussion lmao. It covered everything i can think of really.


Also can we do Big's Idea for matchup Discussion? I feel like it'd force a lil more outta this.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Can't we just jab to get rid of arrows/boomerang like we can against Tink?

 

[Scatz]

Also can we do Big's Idea for matchup Discussion? I feel like it'd force a lil more outta this.

I'm summoned.

Only the Yoshi's that have been on skype know about the new format I'm using.

 

[Sinister Slush]

And since my Skype has been closed for weeks now cause it won't let me on, I have no idea what this new format is.

 

[Scatz]

Just redownload Skype if it's giving you problems. The new format isn't being used much because I just started doing it for the MK matchup that I'm researching.

 

[Rizen]

Link's anti-planking is good. He can shoot hands holding ledges with arrows, wind push plankers away from the stage then the arrow will hit them and have bombs throw at the same time. Yoshi's planking is hard to deal with but we can beat it without moving too close.

Can't we just jab to get rid of arrows/boomerang like we can against Tink?

Yes but Link's are faster than TLink's and you can't jab the boomerang wind. Shielding's easier.

I feel like the first post just killed matchup discussion lmao. It covered everything i can think of really.

________
Unless Link doesn't ban Frigate just CP your best stage. Castle Siege is a good choice because the shifts and walk-off second phase. If Lylat and YI don't interfere with Yoshi's CG they'd be good CPs, Link hates YI and Lylat sometimes kills his tether recoveries.
On SV it's harder to avoid grabs and not be hit off stage. RC Link will run and spam but can be gimped. Brinstar can save Link in the acid and he can 'stage bounce' Dairs+spam well but Yoshi does well too-the acid saving Link is why I'd say there are better Yoshi CPs. FD and Picto give Link room to retreat but severe punishment for being grabbed. Same goes for Delfino but some phases help platform camp too. Link can platform camp well on BF so there are better Yoshi CPs. Japes, the water can save Link and the spam war might slightly favor him. PS1 has good terrain to work with and is a good size for both characters to spam, Yoshi can run well if he has the lead (I just like the stage personally). Um... that's all for now.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Link's anti-planking is good. He can shoot hands holding ledges with arrows, wind push plankers away from the stage then the arrow will hit them and have bombs throw at the same time. Yoshi's planking is hard to deal with but we can beat it without moving too close.

Yes but Link's are faster than TLink's and you can't jab the boomerang wind. Shielding's easier.


________
Unless Link doesn't ban Frigate just CP your best stage. Castle Siege is a good choice because the shifts and walk-off second phase. If Lylat and YI don't interfere with Yoshi's CG they'd be good CPs, Link hates YI and Lylat sometimes kills his tether recoveries.
On SV it's harder to avoid grabs and not be hit off stage. RC Link will run and spam but can be gimped. Brinstar can save Link in the acid and he can 'stage bounce' Dairs+spam well but Yoshi does well too-the acid saving Link is why I'd say there are better Yoshi CPs. FD and Picto give Link room to retreat but severe punishment for being grabbed. Same goes for Delfino but some phases help platform camp too. Link can platform camp well on BF so there are better Yoshi CPs. Japes, the water can save Link and the spam war might slightly favor him. PS1 has good terrain to work with and is a good size for both characters to spam, Yoshi can run well if he has the lead (I just like the stage personally). Um... that's all for now.

I do you have any Vids of Link on RC? Aside from maybe the ship i feel like we completely outcamp you there lol. Also the sidescrolling at the top can get us a free kill if you aren't careful.

Brinstar, thats what i thought would happen.

FD and Picto, Meh CG thing.

Platform camping Yoshi? Hasn't happened to me but i'd assume proper eggs should cover that. Again idk hasn't happened to me. If it has i dealt with it subconsciously lol.

I feel like BF makes it easier to Juggle you guys since im less afraid of bombs and Dair. and what not. We lose the CG kinda unless we space it godlike so thats a plus for you.

PS1 is fun. Again never played you there but i can see the terrain getting annoying.

SV is fun. Even if you Up b onto the platform to save you at highish percents we can still get the kill lol. We also don't lose the CG really.

So I'd probably go with Brinstar or PS1 as you guys.

 

[Rizen]

I don't have any videos of RC. Link can camp hard there but Yoshi does have an advantage for the reasons you mentioned.

Platform camping Yoshi? Hasn't happened to me but i'd assume proper eggs should cover that. Again idk hasn't happened to me. If it has i dealt with it subconsciously lol.

I feel like BF makes it easier to Juggle you guys since im less afraid of bombs and Dair. and what not. We lose the CG kinda unless we space it godlike so thats a plus for you.

PS1 is fun. Again never played you there but i can see the terrain getting annoying.

These are wifi () but this one's a decent example of platform camping on BF:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xN1i0Bbm5XA&feature=channel_video_title
Here's a PS1 Fight, notice some planking/anti planking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fE-_OAmBXzE&feature=relmfu
Halberd where Yoshi has bad wifail luck:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOC3-lCE5JI&feature=channel_video_title

Sorry I don't have any live.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Annoying MU due to the CG.

I'm not bothered by planking that much because of Link's projectiles a bit. Yoshi will want to grab Link as he comes at him, approaching dash grab isn't that effective. In the air Yoshi's movement is enough to get him in and chase Link offstage. Don't even need to Fair don't bother, use Nair and Bair.

Platform camping works on some layouts, some don't work as well from what I have played.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Annoying MU due to the CG.

I'm not bothered by planking that much because of Link's projectiles a bit. Yoshi will want to grab Link as he comes at him, approaching dash grab isn't that effective. In the air Yoshi's movement is enough to get him in and chase Link offstage. Don't even need to Fair don't bother, use Nair and Bair.

Platform camping works on some layouts, some don't work as well from what I have played.

You don't get what we mean by approaching Dash grab. We'll be in range so dash Grab comes out instantly. Unless you were already moving out of the way you'll get grabbed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Oh ok.

How long do you think Yoshi will live on average? Yoshi is very heavy but with a Momentum cancel how long can he live against Link you think each stock?

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Well since like everything link has is a kill move more or less the range is like 100-160 depending on what offs us in the end. We live forever in the sense that it will take you a long period of time to get the hit to take a stock.

 

[Delta-cod]

Our life expectancy is pretty dependent on what kills us. Dair will end us pretty early, but Ftilt and Utilt won't kill us until near 180% with good DI (Ftilt depending on stage position, naturally). Fsmash might not kill us until maybe 150%, but I'm not too sure since I pretty much never get hit by it in kill percents. Dsmash also reaches up there in kill percents, a fresh one not killing until maybe 160% with good DI? Don't know much about Spin Attack's kill power.

I'll run a test later for kill percents when I have more time.

Edit:

The following were done on Smashville, from the center, in Training Mode. I was doing them all by myself, so my DI might NOT have been perfect, especially for Dair, but it was good enough to get an accurate measurement, I feel.

Percents listed are the percents at which I could no longer live after being hit. I tried them multiple times. Dair was also done from a great distance(Footstool > DJ) to allow myself to reposition for DI, as well as being a slow fall. I dunno if that affects its power or not. Dsmashes were also done right next to Link. 1st Hit of Fsmash was done at close range, while the 2nd hit was done at varying ranges (it's hard to do it by myself ;_. Spin Attack, Ftilt, and Utilt were done right in front of Link.

Dair: 124%
Fsmash (1st Hit): 164%
Fsmash (2nd Hit): 139%
Dsmash (1st Hit): 166%
Dsmash (2nd Hit): 151%
Spin Attack (Uncharged): 193%
Ftilt: 179%
Utilt: 160%

 

[Yikarur]

almost every move of link is shieldgrabbable because of the so much cooldown but a lot of moves are too strong so we need to powershield to shieldgrab.
Uptilt and Upsmash are shield grabbable. (but if you shield upsmash cou can punish with fsmash too lol spotdodge after the first hit -> everything works)
spin attack on shield is punishable too.

we baaadly need more frame advantage data =D

 

[Delta-cod]

Yika, I'm pretty sure we have a good portion of frame advantage data done. You might wanna ask Scatz for it.

 

[Yikarur]

lol ok looking into it later

 

[Killanator90]

I'm summoned.

Only the Yoshi's that have been on skype know about the new format I'm using.

Can i get in on this yoshi skype?

 

[Scatz]

Add me then: Bigman40215

Make sure you let me know who you are cause I don't just accept random requests.

 

[Killanator90]

ok cool thnks