Matchup discussion: Lucario

[Coolwhip]

What's up mario & lucario players

Well, Let's begin.

 

[Steam]

er... some people say this is even or in mario's favor. and I think that's nonsense. Lucario can wall mario out extremely well on the ground and in the air... kinda like luigi cept lucario can't just wail away on mario's shield. Mario DOES have decent gimping tools... but they only work from specific angles and mario has no way to consistently force lucario to those angles. Mario is better inside than lucario though, if only because his jab isn't frame 6... so from a lucario perspective it's pretty much a luigi that gets in way easier but ***** way less hard.

Will say more later but I have to go to class. bye.

 

[Coolwhip]

So what stages are good for mario to take cario on? (For tourney)

 

[Jimmyfosho]

From what I know lucarios like YI

This MU is even til lucario gets into that x factor percentage bs

 

[Juushichi]

Yep. Killing Luc is a *****. I get to style until like 120% and then I start losing.

**** Mario's lack of real kill setups.

 

[Steam]

Stages that lucario will take you to tend to vary. Lucario isn't great or terrible on many stages. but YI is a good pretty decent one.

 

[Linkshot]

If you're Mario, just ban Frigate. Take him somewhere like Smashville I guess.
If you're Lucario, uh...ban..Battlefield? Take him to Yoshi's.

Cape can force Lucario into a stalemate...
Yeah, when Lucario plays patiently, there's not much Mario can do.

I used to have experience with this matchup but I haven't played in a while.

I'll go bug Matt and Mystic or something.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Most annoying thing in this MU for us Lucarios is well placed Fireballs and BAirs.

Don't expect to land Jab -> Smash on seasoned Lucs.

Don't get too reliant on yer cape. If you try to cape our recovery we'll just aim up, which'll send us super high. I also like to fire Aura Spheres at Mario's head. Its all about spacing.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Main experience comes from Matador on wifi, just as an FYI.

It's even or +1 Lucario, I think +1 Luc due to killing but I can see why an argument for even can be made.

Fireballs are a pain, we can fair them out but we're open unless we're in a position to fair Mario as well. Bair is hard to deal with due to the reach and spacing it does on Lucario. Lucario should be trying to juggle Mario from below, it's the best area to get at him from as well as trying to cover him landing.

Cape needs to be respected since not only can it reflect Aura sphere, but it can gimp Lucario if he goes low and flip him around if he tried a Shutter step Fsmash or other such moves. Lucario can bait it, but he needs to also be able to punish it which isn't as easy as it sounds.

Mario should do a lot of fireball set-ups with proper spacing along with bair to space on Lucario. Lucario is going to want to juggle and cover landings a lot while living as long as possible to abuse the fact he can live long against Mario due to how hard it can be to land kill moves.

Stages, Luc should pick FD, it lets him love longer due to the boundary lines and the lack of platforms allows for Lucario to abuse what works for him in the MU, this is assuming Frigate got banned which does that and allows Lucario to hit his recovery as another weakness.

Mario should go BF if it's not banned, it set-ups the layout he wants and allows him to cover his landings a lot better. If Lucario bans this pick Lylat or PS1.

+1 Lucario/even imo, but I really don't mind ratio over the info to give people on how to play the MU which is far more important.

 

[phi1ny3]

It's close, but I think Junebug showcases the MU well as a Lucario, with just playing patient and relying on stronger punishes as lucario's percent goes up. Mario's gimp game isn't a slouch though, if Lucario has to recover from below, he's going to have a lot of misery.

I think personally that if I had to guess, your best stages are probably neutrals like BF, maybe stages that opt for a earlier kill like walkoffs like Delphino or Castle Siege? I think Mario can probably pull off some interesting gimmicks on that stage. If the Lucario isn't prone to switching characters, Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise would be an otherwise decent option too (Brinstar's small blastzones and stage layout is not conducive to optimal lucario play, Rainbow cruise forces him to move around and possibly have to use his upB more often), but since Wario/G&W/MK (if legal) are easy options to happen, this is probably not a good idea

 

[Matador]

Wow, thanks for the support, Lucarios!

I feel like it's +1 Lucario, but still definitely a doable match-up for Mario. Killing is Mario's biggest issue here, especially since he can't get underneath Lucario safely for Usmash, and Fsmash has to be spaced exactly to punish Lucario's Fsmash....and its been said that gimping is possible, but not reliable.

Everything else is pretty normal for Mario in this match-up. Mario is outranged, as usual, and gains the advantage when inside.

As far as "If lucario plays patient, Mario can't do much..."

Mario can play patiently too. Lucario is one of the few characters that doesn't just scoff at our bair walling...he has to somewhat respect it. Fireballs are okay to help zone...we aren't necessarily outcamped.

A patient Lucario is a bit of a problem, but only if Mario is constantly on the approach. If both are playing patient, like they should be, it's sorta even. The advantage is Lucario's ridiculous survivability and the power he gains from that.

That's why Mario should be banning stages that help that for Lucario (Yoshis, Frigate, FD) and CPing stages with smaller blastzones (Brinstar, Halberd) or stages that help him get inside (BF).

 

[HeroMystic]

It's slightly in Lucario's favor due to his Aura trait. Mario's only real kill move (F-Smash) makes this difficult. Up-Smash is unfavorable due to Lucario's D-air. D-Smash can work but I honestly never have the chance to use this due to how safe Lucario's ground moves are.

I have to head to my classes but I'll come back to make some responses.

EDIT: Matador pretty much has it all right.

 

[JuxtaposeX]

Don't know this MU.

If you try to approach with fireballs while Luc has a full charged sphere, you'll probably end up eating it.

 

[Coolwhip]

Is there any up-to-date videos of mario vs. lucario on youtube?
Good mario/lucario players plz.

 

[HeroMystic]

Don't know this MU.

If you try to approach with fireballs while Luc has a full charged sphere, you'll probably end up eating it.

Some Food for Thought: Mario's Dash Attack clanks with Aura Sphere and cancels it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I thought there were vids of Junebug and Boss but I dunno of his Mario against his Lucario.

 

[Coolwhip]

I thought there were vids of Junebug and Boss but I dunno of his Mario against his Lucario.

Nope. Just boss's luigi against june's cario.

 

[MP8]

I find this match up not very easy. I have very little experience in it but from what I see, Lucario can wall out pretty well, he has a solid reach and he can cancel out fireballs with f-tilt, f-air and jab (I think). His f-smash has good reach and it lingers for a little after use. Not to mention Lucario's aura damage increase. The walling thing plays out well when we try to recover offstage. I'd say Lucario has the overall advantage, 60-40 ish. Eh, I just need to not suck.

 

[Steam]

Some Food for Thought: Mario's Dash Attack clanks with Aura Sphere and cancels it.

This depends on lucario's % and the charge of the aurasphere. if lucario's AS will do more than 8% more than the Dash attack, the aurasphere will beat it

 

[Matador]

I've fought June only a few times. They were only friendlies too.

I'm sure Boss has fought him with mario before...just not recorded.

And there's no Marios near Trela that would be able to play him a lot either. Steam, why didn't we play while you were at Coney's?? T_T

 

[Coolwhip]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nq3_XIjDNRI

I found one good video of the matchup...We all know who this mario is....

 

[Steam]

I've fought June only a few times. They were only friendlies too.

I'm sure Boss has fought him with mario before...just not recorded.

And there's no Marios near Trela that would be able to play him a lot either. Steam, why didn't we play while you were at Coney's?? T_T

we did, in friendly dubs ;D

I was able to play 2fast's mario at least... ffs there are way too many marios in MD.

 

[SKidd]

Mario vs Lucario

Mario does decent

Lucario gets high percent
gg

 

[A2ZOMG]

Killing is only hard if your Jab game is not completely on point in this matchup. You can link into D-smash or in some situations turnaround U-smash out of Jab cancels in this matchup. Point being that Mario's Jab cancels are extremely good in this matchup. Of course then the trick is getting in range to Jab, but that in my opinion is more a matter of patience than a matter of trickery.

 

[Steam]

depending on how fast your stuff comes out lucario can possibly sideB you out of your jab cancels since as long as he's landed by frame 9 the grab will come out. it works on falco jab cancels, dunno about mario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Falco's Jab cancels are far more disadvantageous on hit and put Falco closer to Lucario. I don't think it's nearly as easy for Lucario to counterattack Mario out of Jab cancel.

 

[Steam]

what is your jab's frame adv on hit?

 

[A2ZOMG]

When Mario sweetspots Jab 2, which will be the usual way he hit confirms his Jab cancels, he has about a 7 frame advantage on Lucario assuming you don't do some kind of aerial action (if I counted right, you're in the air for about 4 or so frames where you can do an action, although I'm too lazy to check and don't have a wii). Technically you can act 3 frames sooner than Mario while in the air, but Mario still has faster options than D-smash to combo into (Jab and Up-B).

Falco's Jab1 in comparison is -2 or 3 on hit and does not link into anything.

Keep in mind when Mario sweetspots both Jabs, he can link into reverse U-smash. This won't happen often though, unless you simply let him Jab cancel into Jab and don't DI at all.

 

[Steam]

well in the air lucario could SideB to command grab you out of slower follow ups. he could also double team in the air (lol) which is frame 6 but if lucario gets read on it he could get punished really hard and double team is slow and mario could probably shield it out of most moves anyways.

 

[A2ZOMG]

One thing to keep in mind is I do not think Lucario actually is normally in range to SideB grab when Mario is going for his Jab cancel hitconfirm. And the projectile portion of the move is extremely slow.

 

[Linkshot]

Wouldn't Mario end up shoving his fist into Lucario's Force Palm Grab box as Luc lands, thusly getting grabbed due to universal grab armor?

 

[HeroMystic]

It depends on how floaty Lucario is. For most characters, Mario's Jab -> Jab -> D-Smash is an unblockable combo as long as the jabs are sweetspotted (which is the difficult part). Jab -> D-Smash IIRC is blockable.

EDIT: But I'm not seeing how Force Palm can stop Mario's jab cancel follow-ups, especially since the jabs have to be sweetspotted.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah. At any rate Lucario is really easy for Mario to put in sweetspot Jab 2 range due to how skinny he is, and by default I don't think he's quite in range to SideB grab when you simply hitconfirm after landing Jab2.

And even if there is some like 2% chance of him getting silly grab armor shenanigans, they won't happen in time to interrupt Jab cancel into Jab or Up-B.

 

[Steam]

^ well if it forces mario to do upB or finish his a combo rather than get a free smash attack, it's a good thing for luc to do.

and I haven't tried force palming mario's jabs. maybe lucario could SDI the jabs towards mario and side B? I dunno if you can even SDI mario's jabs... too used to melee where I can DI everything. but I do know that lucario's SideB has more range than his normal grab.

but lucario should really be focusing on running away and ftilting a ton.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

When Falco does a jab cancel he leaves himself more open than Mario does.

Mario is safer, but it is possible in some cases to Force Palm him out of a jab cancel. More so, Mario doesn't have guaranteed jab cancels on Lucario from what I have seen, though idk with sweetspots.

 

[Matador]

I think the point is that we have options from jab at close range. In a real match, Mario will be landing some jab cancels that aren't guaranteed due to how tight the timing is for Lucario to escape...same with Lucario escaping things that're supposedly guaranteed due to the timing.

Even if it's not guaranteed by frame data, I'll be landing my occasional jab > grab, jab > dsmash, and jab > jab > ftilt either way.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People overestimate the importance of gimping in this match-up ... I'd completely neglect it as a factor tbh. I think the match-up is even on the account that Lucario lacks the OoS options to reliably punish full-hop dair approaches and because of Mario's stronger CQC options.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Just throwing in my two cents, Cape can be a godsend in this MU. If we ever think we can get an Aura Sphere on you, and you cape, we'll be dying REALLY early. And while it CAN gimp us, more often Cape our double jump and go punish our landing, since we'll be WAY up, just watch for our godly DAir, that'll give you troubles.

We can keep you out and get in pretty easily, but Mario can throw us right back out, so personally I'd put this at either -1 or -2 for Mario personally, but I could also see even. It's just one of those weird MUs that's hard to place imo. I can definitely say it's not Mario's favour, but that's about it.

 

[Steam]

People overestimate the importance of gimping in this match-up ... I'd completely neglect it as a factor tbh. I think the match-up is even on the account that Lucario lacks the OoS options to reliably punish full-hop dair approaches and because of Mario's stronger CQC options.

lucario can just outspace SH Dair with most of his moveset :/

@matador- I agree with that, it's pretty much the same thing with lucario's jab cancels... I'm not even sure if Fair>fair or Fair>nair/Dair are true combos with lucario but they work a lot (though sometimes they do not). but yeah, don't forget that lucario isn't a total scrub inside, like mario he can do some damage with strings, especially at high aura.