Matchup Export #4: Ice Climbers

[Mr. Johan]

Matchup Discussion #4 - Ice Climbers

Current Matchup Ratio: +1

Sonic Consensus: TBD

This thread will be used to compile all Matchup-relevant data, and to keep discussion of the matchup clear and concise. Please refrain from submitting a MU ratio only; try to elaborate on the MU so everyone can understand why the MU ratio is what it is.​

Match Up Summary and Key Points​

Main Things to Watch For, and How to Fight It​

Stage Picks, Stage Bans​

Important Links​

Condors, Eggplants, and Chaingrabs~ The NEW Ice Climbers Guide~!


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Sonic loses to ICs -5. They have hitboxes and can most certainly grab

 

[Boxob.]

I love ice climbers in melee.

 

[Death Arcana]

This matchup makes me feel hopeless as sonic!
Does anyone know how useful dash attack is? I like using it in this matchup
Really glad you guys are active :D

 

[Life]

Sonic loses to ICs -20. They have hitboxes and can grab TWICE.

And with that meme out of the way, I have yet to play a good Climbers, but I imagine you have to play super flighty. We have some of the fastest movement in the game and they have tiny grab boxes. Do the math.

So what do we all think of just killing Nana and then timing out Popo?

 

[B.A.M.]

Id rather them have a slightly larger horizontal grab box then vertical; otherwise itd be so easy to side b them all day.

I really despise this MU. I feel ICs dictate the pace so well and can counter virtually every approach we got with fair ease. Once an IC knows they can straight grab a ton of spin dash options, things get bad really fast. However I heard Espy believes this MU is potentially even. I really would love to hear how he goes about it. I feel like I do okay on this MU but I really hope Im missing something, cuz it is way too painful against a ICs on point. I need tips on this one. Bad.

 

[BSP]

I got to play this MU a little bit the other day. Here's what I think.

Their pivot grab is really good and you have to mix up your spindashes or you will get grabbed fast. Any normal grounded spindash or spincharge will probably get you grabbed. Even ASC is risky because they can just dash the other way then pivot grab you. BAM is right, they can grab pretty a lot of spindashes...be careful.

Once you get them split, I do think Sonic is great for keeping them apart. Nana is really stupid and it's easy to land spindash combos on her, and having such a fast run speed really helps us get to her to capitalize on separations. Once she's dead, I think we've got a solid advantage on Popo. If we sit right outside of his range, we can pretty much punish anything he does. Or, you could just rush him down with Sonic's speed because he can't do that much to you. Or, you could just make him waste time by running away. He can't really catch you.

Also, I want to throw out that most ICs don't expect their opponents to grab them, and because of this, a buffered Fthrow is really useful for separating the climbers since Sonic's foot has a hitbox when he Fthrows. You've got to be careful with this though, since a whiff means a CG and potentially a stock.

Until you've got them split though, they pretty much control the match and you're on your toes just trying to stay safe.

I have not played an IC that zero-deaths with every grab though, so I could be sugar-coating it a bit. Assuming that every grab is zero-death, this MU is a lot scarier. However, assuming Sonic is on point, separations should mean death for nana or lots of % for both climbers every time.

 

[B.A.M.]

^^^^ yup yup. One thing though is you should never ASC head on, it should be aiming for their top of their head. This also is a fail safe against pivot grabs as ull end up hitting them in the face usually unless you were super hard read ( however you should just hold the charge really lol). I probably need to get more on point on owning nana. I need to practice vs a comp just so i can get that down. Ive heard from many that is key.

 

[Kuraudo]

This match-up is +1 in ICs favor when you know how to play it. When you kill Nana though, it's +3 in Sonic's favor especially if you take your time punishing and running the clock. You gotta be careful though because if Sopo gets the stock on you while you're running and time is running out...yyyeah.

 

[Brawlman1000]

Well...I believe this MU can be anywhere from even to -2 for us.

Obviously the IC are gonna control the flow of the match as long as their together. We can't really do anything that is safe against them seeing as whatever we do can potentially result in us getting grabbed. Our best bet would be using ASC the way BAM just said but even thats putting yourself at risk. I don't normally jump out of it but rather eat their shield up with it assuming I positioned myself properly. And when it comes down to grabbing the IC a f-throw is pretty good but if you're fast and their really slow u can possibly get an u-throw on em too. Sonic's spines can hit the other IC u didn't grab if their close enough + it does more damage than f-throw but grabbing them is something that shouldn't be on your mind when their together anyways.

HOWEVER, once u separate them then the fun begins.

Sonic is pretty good at separating them with ASC but Sonic is one of if not the BEST at keeping them apart due to his speed. The MU becomes fun once u separate them cuz all hell breaks loose. You and your opponent are scrambling around the stage trying to get to Nana first and seeing as you're the fastest thing alive 9 times outta 10 you should get to her first. Spinning, b-air, and u-air work very well in this situation and sometimes maybe even an f-smash. If u somehow don't get to her first u still have a chance. Keep up the pressure, if he uses Squall to save her punish it with a well-timed f-smash or b-air to potentially reset the situation. If he uses up-b onstage punish either Nana or Popo with a smash or b-air, prolly Popo with a b-air and Nana with a smash. If he's offstage going for the ledge u could try running off the edge and using b-air to put him under the stage or to stage spike him. Now if u kill off Nana then this MU becomes at least +2 in Sonic's favor. It still ain't over yet tho, u could try to time him out (gay) or u could just go in on him. Just watch out tho, just cuz u killed Nana doesn't mean Sopo can't kill/rack up damage on u. I've been killed a few times by f-air bcuz of my recklessness >_> but u all should know better than that. Lastly I wanna add that if they are camping with blizzard/ice blocks just Spinshot to b-air that **** or if you're on a platform just ASC the top of their heads, that could get them separated right then and there.

As far as stages go, I say CP: BF or Rainbow and maybe YI, PS1, and PS2.
And Ban: Frigate or FD.
Use SV as a neutral or ban/CP it.

The MU ratio imo could be -2 for us seeing as nothing we do is safe. Or it could be 0 for us seeing as even tho we put ourselves at risk with every attack we can separate them fairly easily and keep them separated with our speed/mind games.

But I'd honestly clock this MU as +1 favor.

This MU really keeps both players on their toes. One wrong move from either side could have devastating consequences that could affect the entire match.

 

[BSP]

RC is the top CP if they don't ban it. ICs say it screws Nana really hard.

I really should know this, but will Blizzard beat iSDR?

 

[XLR8TION]

Blizzard doesn't beat isdr

 

[FRiSKruns]

Especially not the aerial iSDRs we have on RC.

 

[Tesh]

ICs has the best options vs iSDR. Since there are two of them, you can't just clink and roll/spring/jab away. One climber will ice block/jab/dtilt and your party will be over.

As I said in the Olimar thread, I like BF/Lylat/Delfino because it forces them to play RPS on terms that aren't so painful for us (in the air) if you feel like camping. I think its best to strike fd/sv and let it go to bf.

If you grab one of the climbers (not sure why you would do this) and the other is close, make sure you fthrow. Its the quickest throw and the hitbox on it can keep you safe from the other climber sometimes.

If you force them to Up B to the ledge, know that while nana gets like 4 seconds of invincibility, popo doesn't start his until he reaches the ledge. So put any hitbox between him and nana/ledge and you can stagespike him easily.

 

[kid craft 24/sonic master]

Against Ics for the most part i just focus on separating them and getting it down to sopo, then i just go for a time out. I literally just try to rack up % against sopo without trying to kill them as the MU is a whole lot easier to deal with without worrying about getting grabbed out of early EVERY approach and getting 0-death'd. If an IC's is trying to pressure me with either blizzard or ice blocks i just try to stay above them and tyr to force them to jump. As IC's aerials aren't exactly top notch against moves like our Fair and Uair which are good moves to use to separate them when they jump. So yea i do agree it's +1 in there favor but only due to their CG potential after that factor is gone the MU easily imho turns into a +2 for us.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I used to have an ICs player in OK that I played with in tournament. He knew the infinites, he knew the desyncs, and he could give our top players a difficult time, including Bassem. So most of what I'm saying is based on my experience with him, though I think it's of some use.

For me, keeping a consistent stream of Spin Dash cancels and Spin Charge cancels against ICs helped me greatly, as it kept the ICs on edge as to when I was going to go in for some damage. As much as Sonic is contemplating when to move in for damage, the ICs is contemplating just as much as to when to prepare for a grab. Try to put that to your advantage; mix in Side B-cancels, Short Hop ASCs, empty short hops, Spinshot -> Springs, even Bairs that you intentionally space so that it will not connect with ICs, whatever you can to get the ICs uneasy and make committed movements that you can pick off with Dash Attack (though this is risky at low percents), Hyphen Smash, Spin Dash, or Fthrow.

If the player ICs is really grab happy when punishing landings, Sonic's 2 Stall-n'-Falls can be pretty useful.

Once the ICs are split, try to harass either one of them at any point in time. Sonic's speed allows you to quickly pull out of an offense against one Climber and go straight for the other, oftentimes leading to free damage because either the CP-controlled Climber is dumb, or because the player was not expecting it in his rush to get the second climber back. Getting the Bthrow or the Smash attack against the player Climber would only widen the gap between the two climbers which could allow you time to get a charged Smash or a gimp on the CP Climber.

Once the CP-climber is gone and you have the stock/percent lead, check out. Do whatever to avoid the player climber's attack and Specials. It's much easier handling a single climber than it is handling two of them. And if the player suicides to get his CP-climber back, all the more reason to play super safe and have them come for you.