Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Dedede

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Dedede
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Zelda vs Dedede


- What to know about this matchup...
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• Attempt to outcamp him. Din's Fire can outcamp here, but you must take care. Din's from a wise distance so that waddle dees and doos cannot hit you. Be very aware that he can throw gordos that kill you early.
  

• He will space Ftilts and shield grab a lot. Bait the Ftilt but be cautious of its range. Spotdodge > Dsmash works in time as punishment if you're close enough. Ensure you space outside his grab range as much as possible. This may mean approaching behind his shield and attempting to attack. If he shield grabs a lot, he is prone to being grabbed himself. Capitalise on this. The moment you see spotdodges, punish with lingering moves if possible.
  

• Beware of his bair. It is ranged, lingering and fairly quick. Do not attempt to challenge him in the air. However, you can bait the bair and punish with Din's. Use sensibly - if he catches on, he can bait din's from you and punish the afterlag.
  

• His Utilt is his primary killer. At killing percents be extremely weary of this move. It's his only reliable killer, otherwise he'll have to rack on more damage to kill with bair or trap you in one of his smashes.
  

• Take note of the Buuman Trap. You can be trapped by him if he Dthrows you near the ledge, in which case he'll charge a Dsmash. Immediately tech the Dthrow and throw your shield up to powershield it, and then punish accordingly. You must be frame perfect to avoid the inevitable Dsmash.

• Dtilt trip > buffered bair sweetspot. Learn this guaranteed kill setup on him and you will kill him efficiently and quickly. The fresher your Dtilt, the more likely a trip to occur, and this is precisely what you're after. Starts killing in the region of 70+%.

• Go for lightning kicks and power aerials. Punish his linear recovery with power aerials and attempt to sweetspot him as much as possible. OoS Fair and Bair are very useful, particularly OoS Bair being the faster option. Observe his recovery positioning and go for the aerials most suitable for the kill.
  

- Useful Information...
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• You cannot reflect his waddle dees and doos. You can however jab them consistently away. If you have the lead, jab his waddle dees and wait for him to make a committed approach. Forcing Dedede on the approach is good. Jabbing also refreshes your moveset.
  

• You can reflect gordos. Use wisely and you can reverse the tables on him and kill him quickly. Suitable for those with quick reflexes. Be careful not to reflect prematurely, as the cooldown is certain to get you punished.
  

 

[Commander_Beef]

King Dedede's back air will cut through anything Zelda tries to pull off in the air, and at the same time Zelda can outcamp King Dedede's waddle dees no joke. You guys have the down tilt==>up smash which is brutal.
We can kill Zelda with more reliable moves faster than Zelda can kill us, and we can shieldgrab her forward smash nicely. Those fireballs still blow up when Zelda gets "punished"~Overall, the matchup is a little harder than Sheik for King Dedede.. 55:45 Zelda.

 

[Brinzy]

King Dedede's back air will cut through anything Zelda tries to pull off in the air,

Zelda's lightning kicks trade with his bair, so if you space for a bair, you have to be precise with it or else you're trading.


Personally, the fact that she CAN outcamp him places this as 6/4 for Zelda, but I only say this because by being able to camp, her horrible approach is not as exploited.

 

[MrEh]

Zelda's lightning kicks trade with his bair, so if you space for a bair, you have to be precise with it or else you're trading.

No it doesn't. Dedede's Bair has bogus range. He doesn't even have to space the darn thing, it'll still win most of the time. Zelda is dead. Plain and simple.


Dedede's lack of chaingrab is a factor, but he still has his stupid grab range and the darn thing comes out on frame 6. One grab usually equals upwards of 15% from Dedede, so his grab game is still hella good. Be cautious, and focus on getting him offstage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Zelda THEORETICALLY ***** DDD...... but then he's got that sheildgrab that's just stupid good.

 

[Brinzy]

No it doesn't.

I want proof of this, because I have traded with his bair very often and I'm more keen to believe my eyes than this quote.

 

[Veggie123]

D3's bair is godly, once you're off stage (which will probably be from a grab) you will eat bairs until you get KOd if your opponent is halfway decent with D3.

I find bair very hard to punish even as a grounded Zelda since it surpasses most of her reliable ground/air moves in range...fsmash is not good at disrupting aerial approaches, this includes D3's bair

grabs and bair alone are enough to make this a tough matchup

edit: i remember hitting lain's d3 with an usmash, and he grabbed me out of it

 

[Darkmusician]

I want proof of this, because I have traded with his bair very often and I'm more keen to believe my eyes than this quote.

Don't believe him then. Believe me.

Dedede's Bair wins.

 

[Brinzy]

Well **** bad spacing.

 

[Darkmusician]

It's not worth attempting when there are safer options to use. There's pretty much no room for error in terms of the spacing. But if we're talking about Zelda being precise with spacing, then in theory Zelda can do a lot of things to a lot of characters with precise spacing.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

yeah, you can trade with DDD's bair..... but what DDD is stupid enough to put his bair out early so that you even have the option to trade with it?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No it doesn't. Dedede's Bair has bogus range. He doesn't even have to space the darn thing, it'll still win most of the time. Zelda is dead. Plain and simple.


Dedede's lack of chaingrab is a factor, but he still has his stupid grab range and the darn thing comes out on frame 6. One grab usually equals upwards of 15% from Dedede, so his grab game is still hella good. Be cautious, and focus on getting him offstage.

this is true. once you get him off stage force him to use his up B then u air that crap. if he goes to edge guard you either double jump so ur too high or up b immediatley. bair is a pain

 

[KayLo!]

With absolute perfect spacing, I'd say the MU is 60:40 (Zelda's favor), but since that won't happen, I agree with 55:45 -- or whatever you wanna call this being slightly in Zelda's favor. Basically, camp him and space your rangiest attacks to avoid grabs (the best you can, anyway), usmash up the booty at lowish percentages when you know he won't/can't block, and don't give him a chance to start bair-****** you off the edge when you're recovering.

When he's knocked above you, DDD will probably use dair or try to move sideways and bair you as you come up, so if you're gonna chase him into the air, wait out his aerial and uair/nair/LK him depending on his damage.

On the ground, his ridiculously long-ranged ftilt can be kind of irritating if you're not ready to block it, but you'll learn pretty quickly when to expect it. If he whiffs and you end up in the middle of it (around the stick part of the hammer), you'll easily be able to punish him with a move/throw of your choice.

DDD and Zelda are both pretty simple characters, lol.

Still, I hate "don't get grabbed" matchups...... -_-

 

[Darkmusician]

He just sucks you into his hands. Dedede is really predictable but at times you know what's coming and he still beats you with it anyway.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

He just sucks you into his hands. Dedede is really predictable but at times you know what's coming and he still beats you with it anyway.

which is why I ****ing hate him. He's so one-dimensional, but it works so well. If you are eternally consious of what he can do, however, it's a matchup I'd say that we should win more than lose.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

this is true. once you get him off stage force him to use his up B then u air that crap.

Or LK, whichever works better for the situation.

 

[sniperworm]

GOD MODE!!!!

But seriously, watch out for the Dthrow techchase. He can tack on quite some damage if he gets some good reads in.

DDD is ridiculous. His grab range and throws are ridiculous. His Bair is ridiculous. His survivability and FF speed are ridiculous. Gordos are obscenely ridiculous (don't camp with Din's against him at higher percents), they're like throwing G&W Usmashes at people. No wonder he's so good despite being so simple.

A rich DDD outcamps Zelda

Go Delibird, lol.

 

[Kataefi]

I've reflected a gordo before... i wept tears of joy =) hahaha!

I play super gay in this matchup personally... the moment I get a lead, I stay as far away from him as possible and jab his waddle dees thrown at me for move refreshment. Makes dtilt trips likely

Does anyone do dtilt trip > Bair sweetspot on him? It works whatever range you hit trip him at because his on the floor hitbox is so unbelieably fat. I know mocha used to do this (where is mocha nowadays?)... I always try to dtilt his shield from behind if ever I get the chance to... but I hate it when they realise this, powershield one to a turn-around, and then pursue with a grab.

 

[Brinzy]

I actually started incorporating that against him, Rob, and some others in my non-WiFi play. It's pretty helpful.

 

[GodAtHand]

Watch out for the buuman trap!

 

[MrEh]

Watch out for the buuman trap!

Prime example of why Dedede's Dthrow still wrecks people. Even if he can't chaingrab them.


If Dedede Dthrows you near the ledge, you're screwed.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I hate Zelda Vs. DDD campfest because Din's wins....... until a gordo comes *growls* and, if you're using Din's, you can't reflect that ****.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Yea, I've been using Dtilt trip-> Bair sweetspot. It kills at ridiculous percentages.

What about angled Ftilt vs. DDD Bair? Angled Ftilt can beat G&W turtle at a point, so theoretically, it can beat DDD's Bair. Right?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

What about angled Ftilt vs. DDD Bair? Angled Ftilt can beat G&W turtle at a point, so theoretically, it can beat DDD's Bair. Right?

I actually tested that way back when I was examining that stuff but can´t remember if that was possible... **** I really should start re-testing F-tilt.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm interested to see whether Ftilt's range and/or hitbox is different depending on the angle. Using the infinite zoom cam or whatever it's called, it has the cutest hitbox I've ever seen of a little sparkle coming out of her hand.

But this proves that it is disjointed in some way. Half-Split if you could test and post stuff in the research thread that would be ace! EDIT:: also find your thread as well. I'll let you bump it up as it did yield some interesting results =D

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Half-Split if you could test and post stuff in the research thread that would be ace! EDIT:: also find your thread as well. I let you bump it up as it did yield some interesting results =D

I´ll see what I can do. The reason I didn´t finish it in the first place was because I lost both my computer and testing partner, but maybe the same won´t happen this time.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Avoid when he tries to eat you and suicides or spits you out under a ledge and you can't recover... :/

I get sucked into that all the time...

Avoid the end of his Hammer. Avoid Gordo's. Avoid Items.

Din's is hard to spam here. So use throws/dsmash to get him off the edge and then fire Din's at him.

 

[Ztarfish]

People who try to defend Zelda in these top tier matchups make me giggle like a small child.

I still wonder why this match is even slightly in Zelda's favor, considering the only thing she's got going for her in this match is her dtilt, which is so easily avoidable.

I guess I kind of understand, cause out of the 5, this one is the closest, but it's still ridiculous.

 

[Brinzy]

Because DDD can't exploit her recovery well at all thanks to Din's > Waddles, when against each other.

Don't laugh too hard, because being outcamped by someone like Zelda is nothing to laugh about.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

People who try to defend Zelda in these top tier matchups make me giggle like a small child.

I still wonder why this match is even slightly in Zelda's favor, considering the only thing she's got going for her in this match is her dtilt, which is so easily avoidable.

I guess I kind of understand, cause out of the 5, this one is the closest, but it's still ridiculous.

Zelda doesn't have a free win on heavies.

But His Waddle things are better than Din's.

Can DDD's Neutral A get him out of dtilt lock?

Edit:

Because DDD can't exploit her recovery well at all thanks to Din's > Waddles, when against each other.

Don't laugh too hard, because being outcamped by someone like Zelda is nothing to laugh about.

Din's compared to Waddle things suck. And if I remember correctly, Gordo's go straight through Din's leaving you unable to escape from it because of it's high speed and Zelda's lag.

 

[Brinzy]

No, as it is a "lock" at the right %s, meaning all he can do is SDI out. He probably can at the earlier %s, though.

 

[sniperworm]

Din's compared to Waddle things suck. And if I remember correctly, Gordo's go straight through Din's leaving you unable to escape from it because of it's high speed and Zelda's lag.

Yeah, Din's doesn't stop Gordos.

 

[Brinzy]

No, it doesn't. That's why you watch for Gordos while you Din's from far away, and as soon as you see one, you stop and hit B. I haven't been hit by Gordos when using Din's in a long time, and it only happens on WiFi. In fact, the only time I get punished for Din's against someone not MK/Sonic/Sheik/Snake is on WiFi... anyway, I don't see why Gordo's make this such a big issue.

Also, I'm not making a side-by-side comparison to Din's and Waddle's. I'm comparing them against each other, and Din's doesn't suck against them. If you're in range to get hit for whatever reason, you can always detonate it on the Waddle to prevent a hit.

 

[Poltergust]

I want to put this match-up in perspective.

Like Yoshi, Zelda can out-camp King Dedede. Although, this alone doesn't make the match-up in your favor (Yoshi vs. King Dedede is 45:55).

However, unlike Yoshi, Zelda actually has the tools to deal with King Dedede at close range, d-tilt especially. And she can KO him at reasonable percentages, too. The fact that Zelda doesn't get chain-grabbed also helps, too. King Dedede can KO Zelda extremely early with his u-tilt, but Zelda shouldn't be right next to King Dedede anyways unless she misjudges her recovery.

I'll be glad to discuss this match-up. Zelda is a secondary of mine and I sometimes use her for this very match-up.

 

[sniperworm]

No, it doesn't. That's why you watch for Gordos while you Din's from far away, and as soon as you see one, you stop and hit B.

I'm pretty sure we were talking about if he throws a Gordo while you're using Din's, not using Din's in response to a Gordo (because you're right, responding to a Gordo with Din's would be silly).

I haven't been hit by Gordos when using Din's in a long time, and it only happens on WiFi.

If he throws the Gordo as you start up Din's (which is highly possible if you're camping with it), you're basically screwed, there's no real way around it.

In fact, the only time I get punished for Din's against someone not MK/Sonic/Sheik/Snake is on WiFi... anyway, I don't see why Gordo's make this such a big issue.

Gordos are a big deal because they deal over 20 damage and kill at low percents (it's like throwing a G&W Usmash at you). I think it's important to note that DDD has a projectile that can kill you at under 100% and that Din's can't cancel it out.

 

[Brinzy]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I know that Gordos are pretty dangerous, but can Zelda really not recover in the Din's lag on reaction of a gordo coming out or something? That's basically what I'm getting at. I don't think this is extremely taxing.

 

[sniperworm]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I know that Gordos are pretty dangerous, but can Zelda really not recover in the Din's lag on reaction of a gordo coming out or something? That's basically what I'm getting at. I don't think this is extremely taxing.

At the ranges that he's likely to try and throw something at you, no, you probably can't react in time (especially since part of your attention will be diverted towards using Din's Fire).

 

[Brinzy]

Fair enough. We'll say she can Din's at her own risk.

 

[sniperworm]

Fair enough. We'll say she can Din's at her own risk.

No one is saying that Din's is bad here. It's just important to note that at high percents, Din's camping becomes dangerous (because you could be killed by a random gordo). At lower percents I'm all for it because a random gordo is just damage and DDD will likely take some damage too, so it's not as big a deal.

 

[Brinzy]

I agree with you at this point, lol