Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Ice Climbers

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Ice Climbers
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Zelda vs Ice Climbers


- What to know about this matchup...
​

• Don't get grabbed. Space Jabs, Dtilts and Fsmashes on the ground. These moves cannot be grabbed when spaced and can place pressure on their shield. The ICs will attempt to powershield in order to sneak in a grab, so mix up the timings of these moves by charging Fsmash and using variety. Don't try to get predictable.
  

• Use Din's providing you are sure the range is safe! You can trade with ice blocks should they decide to camp you back. Aim din's at the ground if a block is about to hit you. Din's can put a lot of pressure on Nana from afar due to her 6 frame lag. Do not use din's if they are in a position to run up and grab.
  

• Spaced Blizzard outranges Zelda's ground moves. This is in fact their only move that can outrange her. However, they must commit to this move. You can use Din's fire to snipe them out of this committed attack. Works best if you can bait blizzards from them.
  

• Split them up and take on Nana. A variety of moves can do this - Nair, Fsmash, Dtilt Setups into other attacks are generally safer ways to split them. Nair is most effective on platforms. Once split, Nana becomes lazy. Aim a power aerial and finish her off early; uair, LKs and dair pose a huge threat to her, and din's fire can rack up damage as an alternative.

• They may desynch to apply pressure. Desynching involves both climbers attacking singularly and consecutively one after the other. This can apply pressure but is a commitment. Zelda can apply a Din's to stop their flow or hit them out of a desynch.

• They will attempt to get Zelda in the air and juggle her with Uair. ICs can bait airdodges and punish her floatiness with Uair juggles. They can also fastfall with her which applies more uair pressure. Try to DI away from them; platforms are also effective to land on.
  

• They have a variety of recovery options. They can use Up+B or Squall as their main recovery options. Din's can apply pressure on both types of recoveries at longer distances. Squall is very linear, and Zelda has a variety of moves that can contend with it including uair and dair from above/below respectively, din's, and Fsmash if it targets head on. Up+B is a little harder to punish effectively, but grabbing the ledge before it starts will cause them to take the stage whilst in freefall. Take advantage of this opportunity.

• Recover intelligently with FW. Take the ledge if possible. You cannot afford to land on stage or you risk getting grabbed. If platforms are around consider those as protective options also. Use FW predominantly as a last resort recovery.
  

- Useful Information...
​

• Nana is always at a danger if she finds herself in the air. Due to the 6 frame lag Nana has, she is at a danger to Zelda's Uair or other aerials. Set them up in the air using a variety of attacks. Sweetspot DA, Usmash amongst other moves can achieve this. Dtilts at later percents to Utilt also work well.
  

• Be efficient and don't lag. Every other ground attack bar Jab, Dtilt and Fsmash have notable cooldown that could get Zelda grabbed. Only use these moves if you are sure they will connect. For example, don't use Dsmash or Nayru's as panic tools if you are being pressured in case they shield and grab this.

• Don't underestimate Solo Popo. Popo will bait and punish and play keep away if he has the percent lead. Dsmash near the ledge is very effective in finishing himself due to his unreliable recovery options bar squall, which travels sideways.

 

[zeldspazz]

Not quite sure on the numbers ratio atm.

But some good points to start off:

-We can seperate the Icies with Nair, LKs (if it only sweetspots one), NL, and Dsmash at times. These are the easier onces though, any attack can potentially seperate them. Remember, the seperation of the Iceclimbers is what gives Zelda a possible edge.

- If you do manage to seperate them to opposite sides of the stage, abuse Nana with Dins, especially if shes offstage.

-We slightly outcamp the Iceclimbers

-Zelda being floaty makes the timing for CGing harder for the Icies. If you see them trying to approach when not desynched make them gtfo with Fsmash.

Thats really all I got on this matchup so far :\ Not much experience.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I think Zelda has a small advantage. Maybe 55:45 Zelda?

Din's and Zelda's smash attacks really screw the Ice Climbers over and Zelda easily seperates them.

 

[-Mars-]

I don't really like Dsmash too much against the Ice Climbers because I find that a whiffed one or if I dsmash and they shield it usually leads to me losing a stock. It's a fast move and is great for setting the Icies up for a lot of stuff but it's end lag just doesn't make it an appealing move to me in this matchup. Usmash should only be used when they are above you also but thats already a given.

If I seperate the Icies I focus on hitting nana with Zelda's aerials. Din's is kind of a waste imo and it also allows the opponent to get some free hits in on you if he sees that you're trying to hit Nana with Dins.

Zelda CAN outcamp the Ice Climbers so if your opponent thinks he can just use Blizzard to outspace you then make him think again. Dins is also good against the Icies recovery due to Nana being a moron.

I like charged fsmashes a lot in this matchup. If shielded there is no way for you to get grabbed and the low cooldown on the move allows you to spotdodge or use a quick GTFO me move to prevent a grab if they spotdodged it.

Their grab range sucks and Zelda has a nice plethora of ranged grab moves with enough shield pushback to avoid grabs pretty easily I feel. She also is probably one of the hardest punishers on Nana when she is seperated in the entire game. 6-4 Zelda advantage.

 

[zeldspazz]

Zelda CAN outcamp the Ice Climbers so if your opponent thinks he can just use Blizzard to outspace you then make him think again. Dins is also good against the Icies recovery due to Nana being a moron.

Am I reading this wrong?

You're saying dins is useful O_o

Spoiler

Im joking <3

Anyway, Im thinking 60-40 also as of now, because the Iceclimbers win by getting inside, and in this matchup they just cant do that.

 

[Kataefi]

We have 3 safe moves on the ground - Jab, Dtilt and Fsmash and it really only takes one powershield from them to grab us and kill us. Zelda doesn't really have the speed to catch up to a separated Nana and has to play ultra defensively whereas all it takes from them is one intelligent powershield to take a stock.

I think this could be ICs advantage - let's try and get high level ICs to have a say. I've posted in their thread.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

seperate them LK uair dair nana 6-4 zelda.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well Kata, if your going by the "powershield and 1 grab = death" frame of mine, then wouldnt every Iceclimbers matchup be to there advantage? I believe Zelda has the moves and physics to keep the Ice climbers where she wants, seperated and out of their grab range.

 

[-Mars-]

We already discussed the matchup on the Ice Climbers boards and they put it as our advantage.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah I see what your saying Zeldspazz I guess to throw off their powershield timing you could always charge Fsmash on their shield and throw out jabs and dtilts as mixups every now and then when grounded.

I guess Zelda does well because Nana is the laziest character in the air and zelda pretty much thrives on that.

 

[-Mars-]

Nana can be hit with a lot of dumb stuff that won't ever hit other characters(like Dins) because she only gets a few frames of invincibility on airdodges and things like that because it differs from Popo by a few frames.

 

[zeldspazz]

Yeah, when they are not desynched, the difference between Nana's and Popo's attacks/dodges are by 6 frames.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah, when they are not desynched, the difference between Nana's and Popo's attacks/dodges are by 6 frames.

I was going to point that out also so if even popo gets the shield up nana may not get hers up.

 

[Brinzy]

Or that they're both pretty much never gonna get a powershield together.

 

[KayLo!]

Or that they're both pretty much never gonna get a powershield together.

D'oh, you got there before me, lol.

 

[zeldspazz]

Can NL reflect blizzard efficiently? Cus the only thing Im fearing is when they desynched, one approaches with Blizzard while one grabs.

 

[momochuu]

From the ICs boards:

Week Three: Zelda​

40 :60​

Zelda is a character with powerful, but fairly slow attacks. The hitboxes to most of her moves are very big, but have a lot of ending lag to them. The Ice Climbers get easily seperated by these attacks which is why many Ice Climbers players have a hard time with the matchup. They are still very capable of winning the matchup, it just requires more patience and more emphasis on punishing her mistakes.

Against Ice Climbers, most Zeldas will use a lot of smash attacks and Din's fire. Her smashes are hard to DI out of with just one character, but it's even worse when you're controlling two. D-Smash is a pretty quick attack and will mostly be used as a "GTFO attack" if she's being pressures. It also sends you at a bad trajectory if she hits you in the right spot. Her Up-smash is multi hit and has pretty good knockback. At earlier percentages most Zeldas will use this attack twice to juggle you. It's annoying. Up-smash can be DI'd but if's very dififcult. F-Smash is like a horizontal version of Up-Smash. You can't link it, but the properties are somewhat similar. Pretty good knockback, hard to DI, and multi-hit. If this move hits your shield you'll most likely be pushed too far back to punish her for it. 99% of the time if you try to rush in after a Zelda Forward Smashes, the Down Smash is coming right after that. Din's is good against recovering Ice Climbers because Nana can be late in airdodging at times. If Nana is seperated in the air, Zelda's UpAir is quite devastating.

Ice Climbers have to stay together in this matchup. Nana isn't smart enough to...not get hit so Zelda will have a field day with her. Blizzards can be punished by Nayru's Love which will probably split the ICs up. It's best to not even Desynch Blizzard just becuse of Nayru's Love. Squall gets Forward Smashed so you have to be careful when using it. Ice Blocks are okay, but don't camp them for long periods of time because she can just use Din's Fire. Zelda will have a hard time not getting juggled with Up-air because of her slow airdodge and fall speed. If she fast falls and airdodges, just fast fall with her and Up-air. Being under Zelda in the air is ideal. Chaingrabbing Zelda has strange timing, but Back Throw hobbling works well.

To win versus Zelda, playing smart is necessary. Wait until she uses a move at a bad time and try to punish it. Stay together, and keep her in the air.

 

[zeldspazz]

Beautiful picture <3

Ill read this tomorrow, Im tired atm >.<
Thanks Nya

 

[momochuu]

No problem. I hope it's good enough.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think oyur post is pretty spot on.

 

[C~Dog]

A lone Nana is just begging to be Lightning Kicked in the face. =(

 

[r3d d09]

For me personally, I will SH ice block at random, to help out with your random Dins.

Another thing, watch how the opponent spot dodges. is it always in one direction? if so. punish this hard with the dins. I personally hate being in the air when i see Dins flying. Learn the playing style and punish.

 

[KayLo!]

For me personally, I will SH ice block at random, to help out with your random Dins.

Rarely will a Zelda player Din's anywhere close to at random, lol. It's a very punishable move, and vs. the ICs, who can easily grab Zelda out of her cooldown lag if she misses, it's not worth the risk at close-mid range.

The only time I Din's vs. ICs at closer than long range is if they're in the middle of Blizzard, Squall, or considerably high in the air where I know they can't get down fast enough to punish with a grab.

For ICs who try to countercamp with Ice Block: I gladly trade Din's with Ice Block alldai. The trade is definitely in Zelda's favor, and I'd much rather eat the Ice Block damage (while giving out massive damage of my own) than try to approach.

 

[r3d d09]

Exactly. that's why when there is distance between me and Zelda, i will just put out one IB. just in case. I can't be punished for it. so why not?
I hope zelda mains know that dins>ice blocks. like kaylo said. if you have an IC just Ice blocking, take it and din him. what do you? SH Din? Doesn't Din make you hover a little. either way. Dins > IB

 

[-Mars-]

Red Dogs Icies are too good.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

From the ICs boards:

I was going to posy my opinions.... but this is pretty much them to a "T"


once we get nana separated, which isn't too hard with our moveset, she's vulnearable to pretty much everything.... including bair, fair, nair and uair..... all of which are devestatingly powerful.

 

[r3d d09]

Red Dogs Icies are too good.

I'm the Lain without the drugs lol

 

[zeldspazz]

Im guessing we are done with this matchup discussion and that its 60:40?

 

[Kataefi]

I just want to ask quickly - how does everyone space in this matchup to avoid grabs?

I literally limit myself to 4 moves when I'm grounded - dtilt, jab, fsmash and din's. I'd only ever bring out din's if they spam IBs or commit to a blizzard. I'd never want to reflect blizzard in case they prematurely bait nayru's somehow and grab after.

What about edgeguarding tactics?

 

[zeldspazz]

Edgehog, cus then they cant sweetspot the ledge with upb, and usually Nana is gone then. Dins usually works just fine, you can even try to only hit one if your really good at precision Dins.

I never Jab Kata lol, I space with Fsmash, dtilt, and NL occasionally. Dsmash, Usmash, and Ftilt are ok too as long as you're sure you're not getting punished.

 

[Kataefi]

Jab is sexy!

 

[zeldspazz]

Jab is sexy!

Lol xD

That is very true I must admit, maybe I should us it more.....

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I punish their rolls with Dsmash or nayru's

otherwise I only really attack with Fsmash, Din's or Dtilt unless they are in the air.... and then I have a field day.

 

[mountain_tiger]

I've just realised that I haven't contributed to this thread yet.

I'm going to say that the matchup is 55:45 our favour, perhaps 60:40 if you're being generous. Obviously, if you get grabbed you're screwed, but we have a few moves that are safe on block (jab, FSmash and DTilt should be used liberally here). If you manage to USmash them, that's great, because it makes a good way to separate them, and if you can separate them you can easily lightning kick Nana to her death due to the poor AI. And once you've done that the matchup is so much easier. However, when recovering, if you don't sweetspot the ledge they can grab you, which is really, really bad. Also, you're vulenrable to Uair juggling, so if you find yourself above them, try to get to solid ground ASAP.

That's my brief summary of the matchup.

 

[zeldspazz]

Well, seeing as we are done here (I think) can we do Pit next?

Edit: Do we have a ratio for teh ZSS matchup?

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah I think this matchup is almost done. It felt a bit rushed though - it would have been better if more high level ICs came in and talked about stuff.

For recovery.. I'd pick a stage with lots of platforms. If they bait a teleport on stage to get a grab, then at least there's the last minute option to land on a platform as an escape.

ZSS is 60:40 her advantage btw. I'll update now.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

what about brinstar? lots of recover options and the acid might save you from a chaingrab?

 

[sasook]

what about brinstar? lots of recover options and the acid might save you from a chaingrab?

This man's question went unanswered. And I would like to know what the answer is, because I hate IC CGs with a passion. lol

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

This man's question went unanswered. And I would like to know what the answer is, because I hate IC CGs with a passion. lol

^_^ indeed

Plus, brinstar IS a good Zelda stage.

 

[-Mars-]

I would hate having to deal with blizzard on that stage.....