Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Lucas

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Lucas
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Zelda vs Lucas


- What to know about this matchup...
​

• Lucas will space PK Fire outside of Zelda's melee range. Din's fire is too ineffective at the range in which it has to take on Lucas, so approaching is the only way around his PK FIre spam. Listen to his voice and cue the powershield!
  

• He has a no-tech death trap starting at 75%. Dair > Dtilt Reset > Usmash OR Dair > Dtilt Lock > Usmash are the no tech traps. SDI his Dair, or tech it if you fail to SDI it on reaction.
  

• Space him with Fsmash, Ftilts and Dtilts. SH Bairs or Fairs are decent aerial contenders. Zelda's range is comparitively longer than Lucas' range, and with her ground options she can make herself difficult for Lucas to hit her up close. SH Bair and Fair also outrange his aerial moveset horizontally, and can be brought out every so often to contend with him in the air.
  

• His Dair goes through Zelda's Usmash. Autopilot Usmashes are a no-no. Lucas' Dair has enough range to go through and will setup for his no-tech death trap. SDI the Dair, or challenge with Utilts and Uairs if possible, or simply shield or move out of the way.
  

• His kill options can kill very early. His Fsmash can punish Zelda's overextension when she leans forward from her own Fsmash, (though she can do the same to him). His ranged Dsmash lingers and has strength. Fsmash and Dsmash come out on frames 14 and 20 respectively. His Bthrow is also an option at later percents.

• Lucas' aerials, though damaging, offer little KO potential. Zelda should feel less threatened coming down from the air than against other characters. She can often make it to the ground alive to maintain her defences and dish out further damage.
  

- Useful Information...
​

• You can use Din's Fire against the head of his PK Thunder as he recovers. Try not to hit his body. If done successfully he will fall slowly to his death. Din's fire is often too slow, so you'll need to predict if he will use his recovery off stage to be able to do this effectively.
  

• Lucas has many methods of recovery. With a combination of PK Thunder, Zap Jumps and Magnet Pulling, Lucas can make it back from a variety of awkard situations. Attempt to gimp his PK Thunder head with Din's. Zap Jumping sends him high up in the air, setting Zelda up for a power aerial.
  

• His Psi-Magnet special absorb Din's Fire and heal for 2.5 times the damage it gave. This move negates Din's but it doesn't shut it down. You can use Din's Fire to bait responses so long as you ensure it doesn't get absorbed. At medium distance it can be used with some effect.
  

 

[Noraa]

i dont really know what to say, iv played a couple of zeldas.
your dins fire is useless since it has a long start up giving us enough notice to use psimagnet to recover some health.
i do believe you out range us with tilts.
umm, our killing moves are better, fsmash will probly kill you early and it will be hard to stop our recovery.

i actually need some insight on this match up lol

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Din's fire is never useless.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Din's fire is never useless.

well it often is.... but while they can make the argument that PSI magnet will be fed by din's, at least we can eat PKT with din's to make up for it.


But, all in all, this is not a bad matchup at all. Learn to be wary of lucas's Fsmash and when he can use that. Aside from that move, we really do have a superior ground game.

A lot of lucas's attacks are quite punishable and his aerial game is weak enough that he can't threaten zelda to stay out of the sky like many others can.

PK fire spam is very anoying if you don't keep a cool head and just deal with it.

Really, though, unless we have to recover into a Usmash or we let ourselves get hit with Fsmash, he doesn't have the easiest time killing.

I like switching to sheik here, because sheik can totally obliterate lucas, but Zelda is no slouch.

matchup is probably not in our favour, but it's pretty **** close to even.

 

[KayLo!]

Maybe it's just me, but I never have a problem reflecting PK Fire from Ness or Lucas unless I'm in the middle of lag from another move.

As soon as you hear "PK," hit the B button, and you'll be straight.

EDIT: Sort of directed towards Hedgedawg's statement but mostly just a general comment.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Maybe it's just me, but I never have a problem reflecting PK Fire from Ness or Lucas unless I'm in the middle of lag from another move.

As soon as you hear "PK," hit the B button, and you'll be straight.

EDIT: Sort of directed towards Hedgedawg's statement but mostly just a general comment.

like I said. keep a cool head and focus and it's not hard to deal with, but if you don't know how to deal with it, it can be rough.

I wouldn't reflect it though, it rarely can make it back to him





about PSI magnet. Sometimes it helps us that they have that. It's a nice laggy move for us to bait with din's. And sometimes they'll eat din's by trying to absorb it too late when anyone else would just shield. If you're playing a match where you're feeding lucas or ness a lot and they AREN'T your teammate, you're doing it wrong.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

well it often is.... but while they can make the argument that PSI magnet will be fed by din's, at least we can eat PKT with din's to make up for it.


But, all in all, this is not a bad matchup at all. Learn to be wary of lucas's Fsmash and when he can use that. Aside from that move, we really do have a superior ground game.

A lot of lucas's attacks are quite punishable and his aerial game is weak enough that he can't threaten zelda to stay out of the sky like many others can.

PK fire spam is very anoying if you don't keep a cool head and just deal with it.

Really, though, unless we have to recover into a Usmash or we let ourselves get hit with Fsmash, he doesn't have the easiest time killing.

I like switching to sheik here, because sheik can totally obliterate lucas, but Zelda is no slouch.

matchup is probably not in our favour, but it's pretty **** close to even.

I like using it after dsmash sends them off the edge. Unless DI'd properly it will send them on that weird angle once they use their second jump is when I use it. If they try to absorb the lag will normally kill him and if they take the hit they could either die or be pushed above stage with is advantage Zelda.

 

[Levitas]

reflecting pk fire doesn't return it to sender.

Lucas's air game is most effective on a grounded opponent, expect the lucas to try to fight you at a range until you have to land.

PsiM heals for about 2.5 times damage, so if you're gonna dins fire, make sure he cannot absorb it.

if you haven't started din's before we've started pkt, we're either too close or have time to complete it. if you have, we can wait and zap jump to recover psiM even stalls us a bit, which is useful for this.

zelda gets hit by our no tech death trap pretty early (75-80?), so tech if you feel like living.

Lucas has trouble getting close to zelda at times, which is the real reason why it's a fairly close matchup, though spaced pkf's can force her to approach since she can't reflect them far enough, and he gains hp off anything that isn't a melee attack from her.

Sheik does a bit better in general (not killing, though) so sheik/zelda combination can be effective.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

reflecting pk fire doesn't return it to sender.

??? except that it does? I mean, it's probably not going to make it far enough if that's what you're trying to say

Lucas's air game is most effective on a grounded opponent, expect the lucas to try to fight you at a range until you have to land.

Zelda's anti-air game > Lucas's air->ground game.

PsiM heals for about 2.5 times damage, so if you're gonna dins fire, make sure he cannot absorb it.

kind of an obvious point, but worth mentioning I suppose. That means, if you're going to use din's, make sure you hit him with it at least 3x more than he absorbs it from you. As long as you're judicious with your use of it, that shouldn't be hard.

if you haven't started din's before we've started pkt, we're either too close or have time to complete it. if you have, we can wait and zap jump to recover psiM even stalls us a bit, which is useful for this.

if we stand right next to the edge and wait, unless you are very far away, we can get it to you if we initiate it the moment we hear you start to yell out "PK thunder." If you're far away, we can't likely make it to you in time, but you've got bigger danger issues in that case. PSI magnet stalls you, but it also stalls your ability to recover, so unless you're sure you can make it back after you absorb it, it's a bad decision on your part to try. Eating PKT certainly isn't something that will happen often enough to RELY on it, but it is so devestating when it happens that you need to focus on trying to eschew it.

zelda gets hit by our no tech death trap pretty early (75-80?), so tech if you feel like living.

I don't know much about this, but unless you're hitting us with Usmash, we shouldn't be dying below 100%

Lucas has trouble getting close to zelda at times, which is the real reason why it's a fairly close matchup, though spaced pkf's can force her to approach since she can't reflect them far enough, and he gains hp off anything that isn't a melee attack from her.

so.... din's fire. You make it sound like psi magnet ***** her game... it only takes away din's fire and it's not guarunteed HP anyway. Lucas shouldn't be able to force an approach with PKF though, unless he's already got a lead. They might not be easy to reflect, but they're easy to dodge.

Sheik does a bit better in general (not killing, though) so sheik/zelda combination can be effective.

sheik does a LOT better in general:
Needles force YOU to approach.
Sheik is fast enough to punish the cooldown of practically any attack you have
your psi magnet can't absorb needles
Sheik's recovery s far less punishable.
sheik can tiltock you... yay.
Sheik DOES kill you earlier considering his ability to gimp your recovery is miles and away better than zelda's ability. Needles, fair, bair, chain ledgehogging... just much better.

Zelda and shiek together is also a good team because it doesn't rely on gimping, but it's scarcely better than sheik alone because sheik can gimp lucas well.

 

[-Mars-]

Sonic did you just call Sheik a guy?

 

[KayLo!]

reflecting pk fire doesn't return it to sender.

Wut.

I've played more vs. Ness than I have vs. Lucas with Zelda (reflecting Ness's PK Fire into a grab/smash/LK is TOO GOOD), but Naryu's definitely does "return it to sender."

Like Hedgedawg said, it might not always reach, at which point you'll lag enough for him to punish you..... but at closer than max range, it'll reflect back and hit him. But at max range, PK Fire ain't that hard to shield, so it's not really a problem.

 

[Kataefi]

Levitas is saying that Lucas spaces pk fire in such a way that there really is no point in Zelda reflecting because it's not going to hit him, whereas it's going to make Zelda lag.

 

[KayLo!]

Gotcha.

I call watching-Teen-Titans-and-not-really-paying-attention-to-what-I-was-responding-to johns.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Levitas is saying that Lucas spaces pk fire in such a way that there really is no point in Zelda reflecting because it's not going to hit him, whereas it's going to make Zelda lag.

but at that distance, sheilding or dodging PK fire ranges in difficulty from "easy" to "childishly easy" so the point is really moot.

 

[Levitas]

I think you guys might be reading too far into what I'm saying and going with the "looking at my post from a super defensive not S/A/B tier main" perspective.

First, Lucas has the advantage at a range outside melee attacks. This is because zelda's din's fire is negated from a both at neutral state position, and because lucas can threaten. The fact that zelda won't use din's fire and that lucas's pk fire won't hit if you're awake doesn't matter in this case, because we still force you to approach.

Lucas recovers from a pretty big distance. I don't see edgeguarding in this matchup so much as outright killing off blastzones, and yes, I've actually played this matchup a couple times.

Third, assuming the lucas doesn't suck majorly (which is a bad assumption a lot of times), PK fire will not be reflected such that it can hit him. Anything else means that shield>attack would be able to punish him, and as lucas uses pk fire to space, that would be bad.

Dair>dtilt reset>usmash or dair>dtilt lock> usmash are the no tech options, though there are other ways to start/finish it.

Though sheik beats lucas, tyr beat ankoku in brackets last time, and I think that might have been one of the higher level of play with that particular matchup to have happened in brawl.

Lucas's air> ground game is about hitting people because they don't understand him well enough yet. meh.

Let's try this again, except where you guys made defensive arguments contesting my points, you talk about zelda's assets and weigh them against lucas's assets. It's silly to try to refute everything I said, as I don't think I'm dumb enough to fill my entire posts with nothing but lies. The matchup is more or less even, until you guys use down b.

 

[Zankoku]

Except I'm not high level of play :<

Like every time I enter a tournament I'm thinking "I should probably be playing to win.... nah, maybe next week. This week I want to do X."

Where X could be anything including
- Going all Marth
- Not using Sheik at all
- Going all Sheik
- Trying to rep four different characters in one tournament
- Playing super-aggressive
- Playing super-defensive

If you want to use my tournament play for character matchups I'll try to actually focus on winning I guess, haha.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Except I'm not high level of play :<

Like every time I enter a tournament I'm thinking "I should probably be playing to win.... nah, maybe next week. This week I want to do X."

Where X could be anything including
- Going all Marth
- Not using Sheik at all
- Going all Sheik
- Trying to rep four different characters in one tournament
- Playing super-aggressive
- Playing super-defensive

If you want to use my tournament play for character matchups I'll try to actually focus on winning I guess, haha.

He didn't say high level he said higher which would be better than average I'm assuming.

 

[KayLo!]

I think you guys might be reading too far into what I'm saying and going with the "looking at my post from a super defensive not S/A/B tier main" perspective.

But.... I main Pikachu.

Useful stuff so Kataefi doesn't hurt me:

LK'ing Lucas during PK Thunder is too good if you're near the ledge when he starts to recover. It's **** hard to pull off (and dangerous, because if you miss, you're done), but it's so worth it.

The only kill move Zelda really has to watch out for is fsmash. Usmash/dsmash are extremely easy to see coming, so unless you roll into them or make a huuuuge mistake, just watch out for the stick. Not sure what setups Lucas has into it since my Lucas experience is pretty lacking and coming mostly from doubles.

I wouldn't say Zelda won't use Din's at all. Just not from halfway across the stage when he's just standing there, lol. Point taken on reflecting PK Fire (I still do it anyway since it seems to pay off for me), but as Hedgedawg pointed out, it's not hard to shield it. He announces it and draws his hands back before the hitbox even appears.

Those are my limited $.02.

I'd also like to point out that no one was being super defensive. We (as in me & Hedgedawg, because we're the only two who responded to you) challenged some of your points, yes.... but that's what a debate's about. However, Hedgedawg in particular provided some useful, positive information on what Zelda could do in the situations you outlined. And I already called my johns (Teen Titans ftw), so I don't count, lol.

 

[Kaffei]

The only problem I have with Lucas is his size.
The fact that he's so small makes it difficult to sweetspot LKs.

 

[Brinzy]

Actually, on the subject of Lucas's Usmash... it's likely to hit Zelda, relatively speaking. Recovery leaves it open to that, for one. Falling slow + being tall means that you're pretty much always getting hit by it if you land anywhere close to Lucas. That's all there really is, but that's more than enough.

Be careful vs. his Fsmash. If you like to dtilt, be especially careful because that'll get you KO'd at lightning kick %s.

Nair -> jab *may* be slow enough to interrupt with Dsmash/Nayru's, depending on where he is, but often times you should just wait it out. Punish dair accordingly if you shield it. Be sure to tech in this match-up.

 

[zeldspazz]

Actually, on the subject of Lucas's Usmash... it's likely to hit Zelda, relatively speaking. Recovery leaves it open to that, for one. Falling slow + being tall means that you're pretty much always getting hit by it if you land anywhere close to Lucas. That's all there really is, but that's more than enough.

Thats why you either shoot to sweet spot the ledge or or dont FW from too far away. If you see him charge up a u-smash as you're recovering, and hes predicting you to go completely horizontal (lets say west) then go northwest, or diagonally up. But dont FW far enough away where you have less versatility with your recovery than you already do. Give yourself some options, if you get what I mean when I say "dont FW from too far away"

Be careful vs. his Fsmash. If you like to dtilt, be especially careful because that'll get you KO'd at lightning kick %s.

Any tips to avoid Fsmash other than just stay out of range, cus this kills me more than any of his other moves.

Nair -> jab *may* be slow enough to interrupt with Dsmash/Nayru's, depending on where he is, but often times you should just wait it out. Punish dair accordingly if you shield it. Be sure to tech in this match-up.

Good to know

Yay Im glad we're doing Lucas now =)

Ok heres what I got.


1) Pk-fire is a sinch to reflect because he says PK fire before it hits. NL it and sometimes it will hit him.

2) Fsmash<Zelda (jk) but seriously it just has too much power for how fast it comes out. Space correctly.

3) I almost never use Dins, because the PK magnet range is reeeeally big (I think it goes past the circle, if it hits on the side the circle isnt on, it flips him around). Ive seen people say dont use it if hes at a long range, but it ok from and medium/close range, but usually theres a better option than Dins from those ranges so I dont see a point using it other than when he's recovering.

4) Stay out of the air, he has decent aerials, his nair racks up damage nicely, his uair can kill poor lightweight Zelda, his fair, is fast, and his dair/bair can meteor. His small size makes him hard yo LK too

5) While hes recovering, I like to Dins. I also sometimes try to Uair him if hes going more horizontal than vertical, because if hes recoverying then he should be around KO pecentage.

6) While you are recovering, look out for Usmash as said above, but also for bair/dair. Aim to sweetspot the ledge.


Thats all I got for right now, tell me whats wrong lol.

 

[sasook]

Can someone explain the teching needed in this matchup? A few people have mentioned that you need to tech in this matchup...... tech what? What moves?

 

[zeldspazz]

Im guessin tech d-air/bair spikes on-stage, PH Thunder 1 near the edge when your recovering to avoid stagespikes, and stuff like that. Just my guess Id like to know too sasook.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Can someone explain the teching needed in this matchup? A few people have mentioned that you need to tech in this matchup...... tech what? What moves?

1) Get hit by USmash
2) DI towards the stage
3) Tech
4) ???
5) Profit

Seriously, I'll try and find the video I saw of that.

 

[KayLo!]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can tech his usmash, but it takes some crazy SDI. However, like I said, unless you roll into it or make a huge mistake (like recovering into it.......................), you shouldn't be getting hit by usmash.

That move takes a billion years to come out. Trufax.

 

[sniperworm]

lol, Zelda vs Lucas. Does this MU ever happen in tournaments?

Can someone explain the teching needed in this matchup? A few people have mentioned that you need to tech in this matchup...... tech what? What moves?

I'm pretty sure this is what they're referring to:

Dair>dtilt reset>usmash or dair>dtilt lock> usmash are the no tech options, though there are other ways to start/finish it.

If you don't tech the Dair then you get setup for the kill move (aka Usmash or Fsmash). I say Usmash or Fsmash because Levitas says Usmash but the Lucas players here use Fsmash, so I guess either one is fine.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you can tech his usmash, but it takes some crazy SDI. However, like I said, unless you roll into it or make a huge mistake (like recovering into it.......................), you shouldn't be getting hit by usmash.

That move takes a billion years to come out. Trufax.

You can't tech the Lucas Usmash (as far as I know), but you can use God DI on it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209708 (find it in the OP)

I normally quote the part about God DI but I'm too lazy right now so ya'll can go find it if you're interested.

Gotcha.

I call watching-Teen-Titans-and-not-really-paying-attention-to-what-I-was-responding-to johns.

OMG, I used to love watching Teen Titans back in the day. I was actually watching an episode this past weekend...

 

[Kataefi]

It's called GDI iirc... aka God DI. I would say it's something that doesn't need to be considered in practicality but only in theory, as it's damn hard to do, and it just won't happen really in a match. You can do it to Zelda's Usmash but Veril (who developed it) said he cannot grasp the actual mechanics of that move to do it 100% of the time apparently... so yeah it's basically something that isn't really harmful to Lucas' game at all

edit:: unless you inhuman have obscene DI... and sniper beat me to it!

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

If you don't tech the Dair then you get setup for the kill move (aka Usmash or Fsmash). I say Usmash or Fsmash because Levitas says Usmash but the Lucas players here use Fsmash, so I guess either one is fine.

wait.... lucas is approaching a grounded Zelda with an aerial?

bwahahahaha.

 

[sniperworm]

wait.... lucas is approaching a grounded Zelda with an aerial?

bwahahahaha.

lol, I don't even know if it works on a standing Zelda (it's not like I use Lucas or anything). I remember seeing it work against someone who was in the air though.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's called GDI iirc... aka God DI. I would say it's something that doesn't need to be considered in practicality but only in theory, as it's damn hard to do, and it just won't happen really in a match. You can do it to Zelda's Usmash but Veril (who developed it) said he cannot grasp the actual mechanics of that move to do it 100% of the time apparently... so yeah it's basically something that isn't really harmful to Lucas' game at all

edit:: unless you inhuman have obscene DI... and sniper beat me to it!

Rainbow colored font is pretty obnoxious.

Also you guys need to stop getting into the habit or saying a move is useless and stuff. Dins fire can be absorbed doesn't mean that it's useless. You have to use this move in a way to screw up their recovery or put zelda in an advantageous position either way the move isn't useless. If you start neglecting moves your game becomes stale and Din is really good when used correctly.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Din is really good when used correctly.

most moves are really good when used correctly. What makes a move useful is how OFTEN it's capable of being used correctly.

 

[Brinzy]

Din's is so fun against everyone.

 

[KayLo!]

You can't tech the Lucas Usmash (as far as I know), but you can use God DI on it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=209708 (find it in the OP)

I normally quote the part about God DI but I'm too lazy right now so ya'll can go find it if you're interested.

I meant tech the stage after SDI'ing/GDI'ing it, oops, lol. "God DI" (not a huge fan of the name) was what I was thinking of, but I was too lazy to find the thread. Oops x2.

Also, +34834983 points to you for being a fellow Teen Titans fan. <3

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

most moves are really good when used correctly. What makes a move useful is how OFTEN it's capable of being used correctly.

Whenever they're off stage or recovering from a high places seems like pretty good uses of it IMO.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Whenever they're off stage or recovering from a high places seems like pretty good uses of it IMO.

not really... most of the time, it's still easy to dodge. They have to be in a situation where they can't dodge or block it.

 

[Brinzy]

Din's does open up possibilities. I'm not sure why people are super anti-Din's. They figured out a strategy around it, and suddenly it's useless? Yeah, it's kinda poor, but it isn't really a useless move...

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

You can still use Din's vs Lucas. I've used it many times. Just don't use it from the other side of the stage. Common sense.

 

[sasook]

If you don't tech the Dair then you get setup for the kill move (aka Usmash or Fsmash).

Why not SDI the dair to begin with?

 

[Brinzy]

You may be getting hit by just the last kick, for example...

 

[sasook]

Hmm, even just the last hit...I have a hunch. I'll get back to you after some testing.