Matchup Rediscussion: Zelda vs Snake

[Kataefi]

Matchup Rediscussion: Snake
(back to the matchup directory)

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Zelda vs Snake

- What to know about this matchup...
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• Get him in the air or offstage and keep him there. Juggle him and keep him in the air as much as possible. His ground game is too strong when he gets his camp on. Chase his average horizontal air speed and trap him with USmashes as he lands.
  

• If he's in the air, try and kill him with power aerials. If he recovers low or you're in a position to spike, go for this as it guarantees death on sweetspot. Dsmash can set this up. With uair, you want to bait the airdodge and punish on its cooldown. Hit him side on with lightning kicks. Always use the appropriate aerial based on his positioning. Never underestimate his aerial game however.
  

• Snakes like to guard their descent from above with grenades. Anticipate this and don't be lured into a grenade's or other threat's zone of explosion.

• His Ftilt outranges us. You must be very alert. It is Snake's bread and butter ground move to the point where you can predict it quite easily. Shield it and roll away. Don't try to punish it. Play patiently and poke him with Fsmash; hope his hurtbox moves into the Zelda's sparks, which can be done through baiting.
  

• His Utilt kills us very early. This is his most likely kill attempt and it kills at early percents when fresh. It outranges all of Zelda's ground moves except FSmash, so play safe and predict this move at all costs when at killing percents.
  

• Look out for mines and grenades. His camp game is very dangerous and he can outcamp. Look out for the positioning of his mines and grenades and don't clumsily position yourself away from these threats but fall in range of his Ftilt, as this is a reaction he is trying to bait.

 

[sniperworm]

I'm terrible at this matchup so I won't be contributing much here. Off the top of my head, I'd say this matchup is worse than 40-60 (probably more around 30-70), but that might just be me. His range, power, stage control, and weight just seem like too much for Zelda to handle.

If you're good with Sheik, I'd definitely recommend using her (I know I do). Sheik is a man-eater, lol.

I can't wait to hear what Bobby has to say about this one, he's good at this matchup.

 

[goodkid]

Snake vs Zelda is probably close to 40-60, maybe 35:65?

-Nayru's to reflect grenades.
-Din's/Aerials to knock him out of Up-B, preferably a spike, but smart snakes recover high to prevent that.
-Snake is weak in the air, so keep him in the air w/ up-throw/d-throw combos.
-Learn how to DI out of Nair so you don't get killed @ a ridiculously low %.
-Not quite sure about this, but I think Fair works Oos because of Snake's tall stature.

I'm not good @ explaining, I know this match-up & adding in a little Sheik can make it easier.

 

[MrEh]

While not as bad as MK, Snake is still one of the most difficult matchups for Zelda.


First of all, he outcamps you. Grenades are some of the most effective projectiles in the game, and if you get into a camping war, you'll lose. Zelda's reflector isn't that useful either, because Snake can opt to make his grenades fall right in front of you, making it useless. You gotta approach. You're not Fox. You're not Pit. You cannot afford to tango with grenades. Every hit will bring you one step closer to death, and because Snake is freakishly strong and Zelda is light, you can't afford unnecessary damage. It's so much easier for Snake to land a kill move as well. Zelda has to position herself and kick. All Snake has to do is throw out his Utilt.


Weight and damage output is very important in this matchup, since it's one of the things that royally screws Zelda over. Yes, Zelda is strong. However, Snake is very heavy, and his weight helps him survive to obscene percentages if you can't land a kick. Snake is strong as well, and since Zelda is light, he'll kill her at low percents. The weight difference is very apprent, and you should get used to dying at 95%. It also sucks that Zelda's moveset seems to be tailored towards camping and defending herself, and Snake's grenades make both of those things moot. You gotta approach, and Snake is a freaking brick wall. Snake can be one of the most defensive characters in the game, and when you're using a character that has one of the worst approaches in the game, you know you're screwed.


Snake also racks up damage so fast that it's not even funny. Ftilts do more then 20%, and they come out 5x faster then your Fsmash. Yes, 5x. You cannot afford to get hit. If you get hit by 4-5 tilts, Snake has already done enough damage to kill you with his Utilt. And that's not even factoring the damage done by silly things like grenades. Considering the fact that Snake's tilts are so easy to land, Zelda is going to take a beating at close range. Sadly though, she has no choice. Because trying to camp Snake is dumb.


A bad thing about this matchup is that Zelda has no reliable approach. Snake can just drop grenades and tilt, and Zelda can't do a darn thing about it. The only way to really hit Snake would be to predict what he does and intercept it. And when you have to rely on punishing mistakes to win a match, you know that the matchup sucks.


Snake is a beast on the ground, so you have to make it a priority to get Snake into 2 bad positions. There positions are as follows:

1. In the air
2. Offstage

These are the only two places where you can reliably attempt to rack up damage or go for the kill, because Snake's air game is his weakest point. You MUST capitalize at this point. Zelda cannot reliably create these opportunities, because a grounded Snake is difficult to even touch. If you get him in the air, take advantage of it. Read his movements, bait his airdodges, and PUNISH HIM. Don't let him get to the ground! If you cannot capitalize on these moments, you will lose, since you'll never be able to rack up damage fast enough or kill Snake early enough. The weight difference and damage output difference will catch up to you, and Snake will have an easy lead.


The matchup is probably 30-70. Not as bad as MK, but it's still a death matchup. You can actually use the MK summary and it will also work for Snake.

Zelda's Options
1. Fsmash and hope Snake runs into it
2. Hope that your opponent is ********

Snake's Options
1. Nearly everything

 

[MRTW113]

MrEh, your sig seems very fitting to the horrors of this matchup.

It's funny how both can juggle the other like no tomorrow, yet its so much easier for Snake to get us airborne

 

[KayLo!]

MrEh, your sig seems very fitting to the horrors of this matchup.

Lol!

It still gets me every time.

 

[Darkmusician]

70-30 at least. I have alot of Snake experience. Imo WAR is one of the best Snakes in the nation and I've yet to topple him in brackets.

When he gets his camp on it is very hard for Zelda to touch him.

If anyone has specific questions about this match up I will answer them in detail.

Again once Snake knows what Zelda is basically going to do it's all but done.

Like MK I would just say 80-20. Snake rips through Zelda like nothing. But that's just due to my experience of fighting so many snakes.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Snake vs. zelda is noticeably worse than MK vs. Zelda in my experience. He's at least as tough as game and watch.

Best results I've had have come from playing a VERY careful sheik and, at an appropriate damage, transforming and patiently waiting for a chance to KO.

At least he's a big target.

 

[GodAtHand]

I find most snakes harder than most metas as well...

 

[Darkmusician]

Snake vs. zelda is noticeably worse than MK vs. Zelda in my experience. He's at least as tough as game and watch.

Best results I've had have come from playing a VERY careful sheik and, at an appropriate damage, transforming and patiently waiting for a chance to KO.

At least he's a big target.

I don't think so. You can gimp Snake. A good MK won't get gimped.

 

[MrEh]

And MK gimps Zelda harder then Snake does. lol

MK is definately harder, but Snake is still insta-death anyway. Truthfully, I think both ratios are worse then 30-70, but I know people would argue with me to the ends of the Earth. :/

MrEh, your sig seems very fitting to the horrors of this matchup.

A sig befitting a troll.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I don't think so. You can gimp Snake. A good MK won't get gimped.

yes well snake kills you right out a lot earlier than MK can and I dunno how often you're putting snake in a position where you can gimp him, but that's not an easy thing to do in my experience.

If it were based on gimping potential alone, I'd agree with you, but snake can just flat out kill you at the same damages MK can gimp you at and, if you don't gimp snake, he lives a hell of a lot longer than MK against zelda.

 

[gm jack]

It may be a strong point to wait for the switch, as even if Sheik fails to get gimps, Zelda will be fresh when she comes in, which is going to be invaluable in getting the kill at any reasonable percentage. Sheik may be able to at least give Snake a decent fight on the ground as she has the speed and mobility Zelda doesn't. If Snake makes a mistake, it can be punished by an Ftilt lock, which is going to rack up more than most of Zelda's options, as well as coming out quicker.

When going for the kill as Zelda, I'm going to have to agree with what others have said and say your only option is to wait for them to make a mistake, and punish it as hard as you can.

 

[Darkmusician]

I disagree. Snake can kill at 40-50 but that's usually with a f-smash and bad DI. The forward smash especially when not charged will not kill Zelda below 50 if DI is there.

MetaKnight can knock Zelda off the stage, go after her, eat her jump and at below 50 with proper reads and trapping can gimp her quite easily. This is very possible due to the nature of MKs tilts and throws that keep his opponents close to him and allows him to follow up very efficiently.

Snake is easier to put into killing positions than Meta Knight. Even if you get MK into death range (early triple digits) good luck touching him. MK is so much harder to catch because of his speed and priority.

Gimping Snake comes with experience and if you don't find it easy than just work on it.

Snake is not as difficult as MK. There are many factors besides the chance to gimp him at low damage.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

I disagree. Snake can kill at 40-50 but that's usually with a f-smash and bad DI. The forward smash especially when not charged will not kill Zelda below 50 if DI is there.

similarly, MK isn't reliably going to be gimping you from 0 damage.

Snake is easier to put into killing positions than Meta Knight. Even if you get MK into death range (early triple digits) good luck touching him. MK is so much harder to catch because of his speed and priority.

maybe he's easier to connect with a kill move against. But it's harder to get him to a killing damage.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Hmm... I just saw this thread just now.

I think everything has been outlined enough. I would say 70-30 at least in Snake's favor.

Unless of course, the person playing Snake has no idea what they are doing.

 

[Veggie123]

4 things,

-you're going to be using fsmash so much, iirc it's the only reliable ground move zelda has that outranges snake's sick tilts.

-zelda's long lasting smashes work against her in this match up (i.e. usmashing a shielding snake with a gernade by him. can you say kaboom?)

-nair can outprioritize snake's dacus if snake cancels his dash attack early on

-a lot of snake players like to drop c4s while in the air to prevent being juggled, and if you time it right you can get a uair in right when he drops it.

30-70 snake. mk's worse, however this matchup still sucks nonetheless.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

4 things,

-you're going to be using fsmash so much, iirc it's the only reliable ground move zelda has that outranges snake's sick tilts.

-zelda's long lasting smashes work against her in this match up (i.e. usmashing a shielding snake with a gernade by him. can you say kaboom?)

-nair can outprioritize snake's dacus if snake cancels his dash attack early on

-a lot of snake players like to drop c4s while in the air to prevent being juggled, and if you time it right you can get a uair in right when he drops it.

30-70 snake. mk's worse, however this matchup still sucks nonetheless.

F-smash has lag at the end though.


Question:

If you do a U-smash on a Snake with a grenade and the grenade blows up, won't that break his shield?

And, with the C4, that would be somewhat situational.

 

[MrEh]

If you do a U-smash on a Snake with a grenade and the grenade blows up, won't that break his shield?

Only if his shield is depleted, and that's unlikely.

 

[Veggie123]

F-smash has lag at the end though.

fsmash has relatively low cool down lag, being only 2 frames more than dtilt. also, all of her ground moves have more ending lag than fsmash aside from jab and dtilt. it's much more laggy upon start up. what can i say though, zelda is a laggy character.

 

[MrEh]

The problem is that Snake can hit Zelda before the Fsmash even comes out.

A 3 frame Ftilt is serious business.

 

[KayLo!]

A 3 frame Ftilt is serious business.

Ugh, I didn't realize it was that fast.

 

[MrEh]

Ugh, I didn't realize it was that fast.

To put it simply, it comes out 5x faster Zelda's Fsmash. And it does more damage.

Zelda is screwed.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Zelda has no options against nade camping. NL will only be punished, Din loses badly in comparison and she has no good approaches. It almost feels like the best option would be throwing those suckers back at him and that will never work in any situation.

I´d say the only things in her favor are possible U-smash chains (if you ever manage to hit with the move), LKs, spike and D-smash that can force him to recover in "bad" position (lol). None of those can be counted on.

Snake´s tilts also have broken disjointed hitboxes. How can he hit with them without even touching?

 

[Veggie123]

sorry, i was mistaken earlier. zelda's fsmash and snake's ftilt are roughly the same range, that's a shame

 

[MRTW113]

Snake´s tilts also have broken disjointed hitboxes. How can he hit with them without even touching?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDWKpP1U1ok

Apparently they DO...in some superhumanly fashion

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

sorry, i was mistaken earlier. zelda's fsmash and snake's ftilt are roughly the same range, that's a shame

yes.... snake's tilts are broken.

it's stupid but, what can we say? Sakurai sucks at making a balanced game. But at least there's tripping right?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

While not as bad as MK, Snake is still one of the most difficult matchups for Zelda.


First of all, he outcamps you. Grenades are some of the most effective projectiles in the game, and if you get into a camping war, you'll lose. Zelda's reflector isn't that useful either, because Snake can opt to make his grenades fall right in front of you, making it useless. You gotta approach. You're not Fox. You're not Pit. You cannot afford to tango with grenades., Every hit will bring you one step closer to death and because Snake is freakishly strong and Zelda is light, you can't afford unnecessary damage. It's so much easier for Snake to land a kill move as well. Zelda has to position herself and kick. All Snake has to do is throw out his Utilt.


Weight and damage output is very important in this matchup, since it's one of the things that royally screws Zelda over. Yes, Zelda is strong. However, Snake is very heavy, and his weight helps him survive to obscene percentages if you can't land a kick. Snake is strong as well, and since Zelda is light, he'll kill her at low percents. The weight difference is very apprent, and you should get used to dying at 95%. It also sucks that Zelda's moveset seems to be tailored towards camping and defending herself, and Snake's grenades make both of those things moot. You gotta approach, and Snake is a freaking brick wall. Snake can be one of the most defensive characters in the game, and when you're using a character that has one of the worst approaches in the game, you know you're screwed.


Snake also racks up damage so fast that it's not even funny. Ftilts do more then 20%, and they come out 5x faster then your Fsmash. Yes, 5x. You cannot afford to get hit. If you get hit by 4-5 tilts, Snake has already done enough damage to kill you with his Utilt. And that's not even factoring the damage done by silly things like grenades. Considering the fact that Snake's tilts are so easy to land, Zelda is going to take a beating at close range. Sadly though, she has no choice. Because trying to camp Snake is dumb.


A bad thing about this matchup is that Zelda has no reliable approach. Snake can just drop grenades and tilt, and Zelda can't do a darn thing about it. The only way to really hit Snake would be to predict what he does and intercept it. And when you have to rely on punishing mistakes to win a match, you know that the matchup sucks.


Snake is a beast on the ground, so you have to make it a priority to get Snake into 2 bad positions. There positions are as follows:

1. In the air
2. Offstage

These are the only two places where you can reliably attempt to rack up damage or go for the kill, because Snake's air game is his weakest point. You MUST capitalize at this point. Zelda cannot reliably create these opportunities, because a grounded Snake is difficult to even touch. If you get him in the air, take advantage of it. Read his movements, bait his airdodges, and PUNISH HIM. Don't let him get to the ground! If you cannot capitalize on these moments, you will lose, since you'll never be able to rack up damage fast enough or kill Snake early enough. The weight difference and damage output difference will catch up to you, and Snake will have an easy lead.


The matchup is probably 30-70. Not as bad as MK, but it's still a death matchup. You can actually use the MK summary and it will also work for Snake.

I would have to disagree with some of the things I bolded. I don't really think approaching snake is the smartest thing. You even pointed out how ridiculous broken his tilts are yet you say the only option is to approach. I also think you can out camp snake with din's fire. When I camp with din;s it has a couple of effects on snake. It forces him to shield. That might not seem big but if he just pulled out a nade he drops it. That pressures his shield and makes him approach you. Or if he tries to throw his nade that's a free hit with din's fire. Another that can happen is the din fire connects and so does the nade. I also don't mind getting hit by his nades because that means he's not hitting me with any of his other moves. I've been able to do better while camping as opposed to trying to approach.

 

[MrEh]

I also think you can out camp snake with din's fire.

(Sorry Kata, I really couldn't resist. I do have a wall of text to back it up though.)

You even pointed out how ridiculous broken his tilts are yet you say the only option is to approach.

Duh. It's the lesser of two evils.

Snake's tilts are hax, but in a camping war, you'll take damage while Snake takes hardly any. And if Snake is taking more damage then Zelda in a camping war, that Snake is terrible.

When I camp with din;s it has a couple of effects on snake. It forces him to shield. That might not seem big but if he just pulled out a nade he drops it.

Then that Snake is horrible, and he's not throwing grenades fast enough. If Snake is camping correctly, then he can spam you with grenades faster then you can spam with Din's. You're the one who's going to be shielding, not him.

That pressures his shield and makes him approach you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVUOGUmxJI

Is this what you're talking about?

Or if he tries to throw his nade that's a free hit with din's fire.

He chucks nades faster then you can shoot dins. So it's not a free hit unless the Snake is ********.

Another that can happen is the din fire connects and so does the nade. I also don't mind getting hit by his nades because that means he's not hitting me with any of his other moves.

Um, if you're getting hit by nades, then that means that you're taking damage. And if you're trying to camp him, that means that Snake is taking hardly any damage, since his camp game is superior to Zeldas.

I've been able to do better while camping as opposed to trying to approach.

Then you're been playing terrible Snakes.

At high levels of play, Zelda is camped by nearly anyone. Saying that Zelda camps Snake is absurd.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Only if his shield is depleted, and that's unlikely.

Ah. Thanks.

Then that Snake is horrible, and he's not throwing grenades fast enough. If Snake is camping correctly, then he can spam you with grenades faster then you can spam with Din's. You're the one who's going to be shielding, not him.



He chucks nades faster then you can shoot dins. So it's not a free hit unless the Snake is ********.

What if you Din's from the air?

Zelda kinda floats in the air, but I guess this would lead to Din's lag leading to a free Snake's F smash.

 

[KayLo!]

At high levels of play, Zelda is camped by nearly anyone. Saying that Zelda camps Snake is absurd.

I was going to make a post similar to yours, but you beat me to it. And quite nicely, I might add.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

(Sorry Kata, I really couldn't resist. I do have a wall of text to back it up though.)



Duh. It's the lesser of two evils.

Snake's tilts are hax, but in a camping war, you'll take damage while Snake takes hardly any. And if Snake is taking more damage then Zelda in a camping war, that Snake is terrible.



Then that Snake is horrible, and he's not throwing grenades fast enough. If Snake is camping correctly, then he can spam you with grenades faster then you can spam with Din's. You're the one who's going to be shielding, not him.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRVUOGUmxJI

Is this what you're talking about?



He chucks nades faster then you can shoot dins. So it's not a free hit unless the Snake is ********.



Um, if you're getting hit by nades, then that means that you're taking damage. And if you're trying to camp him, that means that Snake is taking hardly any damage, since his camp game is superior to Zeldas.



Then you're been playing terrible Snakes.

At high levels of play, Zelda is camped by nearly anyone. Saying that Zelda camps Snake is absurd.

What normally happens is he throws 1 gernade at me and when he tries to through a second one the din will explode in his face. As for his skill level he isn't pro but he's a good player better than average. Nut I do better when I don't try to approach him. Even if he's chucking nades at me that doesn't din's don't give him time to cook them.

So let's say I approach snake. I would try to stay at the tip of fsmash range?

 

[Canvasofgrey]

Spacing is too important against Snake since the makers of the game made Snake's disjoint range too ********. Still, Zelda can outrange him, but the margins between her attack range and her zone of vulnerability is tiny, so yeah, you have to space him better than an ivysaur player! >_<

 

[MrEh]

What if you Din's from the air?

Then you just made yourself a big floating target.

So let's say I approach snake. I would try to stay at the tip of fsmash range?

You approach and hope that Snake makes a mistake.

Unless you are significantly more skilled then your opponent, you will lose.

 

[Kataefi]

Stages please guys!

I'm thinking an awkward layout may work best possibly at decreasing snake's chances of camping and/or placing traps.

 

[MrEh]

Snake wins on all counterpicks. The grim reality is that Mansion is gone, and there goes Zelda's best counterpick. Rainbow Cruise isn't a good idea either, since Snake can out manuver you on stage and Zelda's recovery is just terrible.

I would just keep it to neutrals. I like FD. No platforms for Snake to mess around on, and none of the Yoshi stupidity.

 

[L-T!]

I find most snakes harder than most metas as well...

Same thing with me.

 

[MrEh]

Then the MKs you're playing suck. lol

jk

 

[brendatheavatar]

There's no way around him !!!
>w<

 

[MrEh]

There's no way around him !!!
>w<

Get significantly better then your opponent.

Outplay him/her.