Cactuarz
Smash Ace
So yea, I'm not good with G&W, but I play him different, I figure the G&W boards need SOME KIND OF ACTIVITY, and a social board wouldn't work because there's only like...3 of us. So I'm gonna post my thoughts on G&W here.
New Info
*stolen info from m2k's statistics list*
Roll
35 frames long, 16 invincible (both rolls)
(also 2'nd shortest backward roll and shortest forward roll)
Spot dodge: 32 frames long, 11 invincible (wtf)
Air dodge: 29 frames long, invincible for 26 (starting frame 4)
Jump starts on frame 5 So... If i'm correct, if instead of spot dodging, G&W jumps, instantly does an air dodge and then falls back down, it would take 34 frames and 26 would be invincible vs 32 and 11 with a spot dodge... I'm gonna tie this into my game more.
G&W ducks lower than sheik (good for projectiles... and attacks =p (can G&W duck under sheik's grab? I know that jiggs can (if it's not a dash grab) and G&W is right behind him on the ducking height list)I think G&W can duck under Marf's grab, if they like to abuse that, try to duck and see if it helps? Don't bother ducking under Peach's grab, it's a no-no)
Abuse your wavedash - My game revolves around edge canceling and a lot of wavedashing around. G&W has a beautiful wavedash, it's just too cute to do anything out of. =p
Part 1: What G&W does already. *from a nublet's standpoint*
I look at G&W as a character that revolves around edge canceling and generally avoiding l-canceling all together. Let's face it, L canceling sucks with G&W, you're limited to fair, dair, and uair if you just pulled it out *lame*. Focusing on a SHFFL game like every other char in the game just limits your options too much. 3-4 real approaches, SHFFL fairs, SHFFL dair (to dtilt, you know you wanna), empty SH's, and grabs. Do not want...
Do not want...
DO NOT WANT!!!
seriously... shielding beats 3 of those options *it beats running up and grabbing, cause G&W's grab and run is slow as balls. While there are other options, like running up and fsmashing just out of grab range, it's not practical very often at all =s.
Part 2: What Cactuarz likes to do *when he's thinking about it*
Part a: Edge canceling. G&W is slidey as balls, what's not to abuse about that? Toss an attack at the edge of the platform with some momentum, slide off and be free for a new attack, GENIUS! Not gonna lie, I LOVE platforms.
Grab that platform on battlefield/DL64/YS/PS/FoD. that's 5 starter stages right there that you can have all sorts of fun with. *take a guess at what stage I ban against non fast fallers *for chaingrabs**. Dair camping on platforms is fun as all hell. Dair off one side, then instantly jumping and bringing out that huge downward hitbox to the other side, where against you do the same thing. That's a pretty intimidating hitbox. I like doing this with bairs as well. Huge hitbox with pretty good stun and lots of damage ftw. (note: not as effective on DL64 due to more room underneath)
If someone gets ready to attack from below, you don't have to take it... just toss an instant dair out after landing on the edge, or waveland behind/around them. hell, you could even toss in an Uair and you can l-cancel it for once (zomg).
Part b: Stages:
This will need to be updated a lot as I practice some more CP stages, but I'll post what tips I've got on each one. Feel free to add suggestions.
Starter:
FD - I don't like it, you can chaingrab Falco and Fox here pretty well. I really just hate this stage. Ban it, not enough platforms =p. Full hopped autocanceled aerials into wavelands are cool here, FH retreating aerials, makes for a decent camping with hitboxes that last 90% of the time you're in the air, I almost LIKE this stage against people with no/****ty priority'd projectiles (like peach's). If your fair can stop the projectile, it's near useless in this case. SHRB is fun on this level. That's right, short hop reverse bacon canceling. Try it, it's an effective little gimmick. Boosts momentum then instantly stops it, and sends out bacon, this and bacon canceling (SH bacon to cancel momentum) is about all I use bacon for.
DL64 - left/right platforms from ground you can do nair/fair/bair and land on the platforms, aka the edge of platforms aka edge cancels. Has to be FH'd. I love pulling out fair way early so it has a weaker hitbox, then edge canceling it into a strong fair at midrange %'s. Combo's nicely, but not much hitstun to pull out a nair =(. Dair camping works, you live forever, but so does your opponent. While G&W is amazing at edge guarding, his recovery blows... I'm not too fond of this stage in general. Too big. Fine against slow people like uh... bowser?
FoD - I LOVE THESE PLATFORMS **** combo I've yet to pull off but really want to: Edge canceled nair off top platform, landing with an edge canceled weak fair off the side platform as it's low to the ground, into another weak fair edge canceled off the edge, into a 9. This needs to happen people, It's like a wombo combo of edge canceling G&W goodness. Also Edgecanceling twice in a row when the platforms are low is just ****ing hot. Gigantic hitboxes up and down, with small side ones. PERFECT for G&W. My typical CP stage.
Battlefield - Watch your recovery, one of my favorite stages due to the platforms *go figure*. Even the edges, yes they can mess with your recovery, but they can help too. M2 is silly with his side b here. A rather normal stage, I like it myself since the platforms cover the whole thing.
YS - Another of my favorite stages. Small edges, kinda hard to edge cancel attacks off the sloped edges, but you have platforms abound so it's not too bad, MIX UP YOUR RECOVERY HERE, YOU HAVE RANDALL, THE EDGE, AND THE SIDE PLATFORMS, USE THEM! Edge cancel your up b if you can *overshoot a little bit and DI back off the edge, it works for getting rid of that lag. My 2'nd favorite G&W stage, yes even against heavy hitters like fox. Avoid bowser and his silly shannanigans here.
PS - Third favorite, I LIKE this stage vs spacies, they die quick. They can camp you. But you have... platforms, although they're different here they're still quite useful. The mix of openness and platforms lets you mix in some FH fair/bair/uair/nair into waveland tricksies with some edge cancels too.
CP (forgive gaps here, I tend to play G&W mostly in friendlies, although I'm going to a tourney Saturday so I'll try to get some more exp on these lvls)
Rainbow Cruise - Eh, not too bad, I would like to explore more options with the ridiculous platforms after the pendulum. Don't play against spacies here, more trouble than it's worth.
Jungle Japes - Hate it, can't sweetspot, water ****s with you. I like fighting on the right side just because if you're in the water you're dead anyways, no sence giving the opponent extra recovery tricksy opportunities if you can't use them eh? That or the middle cause i'm a ***** with edge canceling.
Green Greens - My favorite stage... it sucks with G&W and that makes me a sad panda =(. IT'S MARIO PARTY =D. Don't go here.
Corneria - Hate it, if someone is gay enough to take me here I usually go ness and just heal on the guns down below, camp my *** off and play as gay as the stage is. I'll edit in my thoughts on this level that I posted in the psuedo-matchup thread after I post this. Bacon canceling! it works here?
Brimstar - I like it myself, it's wierd but it eliminates the need for recovering when lava is out, also you can chose to recover through the stage, it's neat-o =D. I like when people CP me here =) Might pick it against spacies in the tourny coming up just cause I love this level almost as much as Mario Party
Mute City - I mained peach, I liked it, I now main jiggs, I still like it, G&W doesn't like it. Too many reasons. NO PLATFORMS RAWR SHRB (the bacon thingy from the FD stage) works here
Poke Floats
KJ64 - You can go through the bottom? Possible tricksies on the up and down platforms?
Fun
uhh... what banned stages are actually fun... Flat zone? uhhhh Fourside?... that silly cloud level?
Part C: Char's
Fox: I like fox, just don't get shined. Not even from on the stage near edge get shined. You get all shined. Then you're like, HEY! YOU SHINED ME. Cause you're all shined. Getting shined is bad mmkay? Brimstar/FoD are my fav stages for him
Marf: Gay, Stay out of tipper range, I like SHRB on him, be careful autocanceling attacks as he's quick and has more range than your fair. and it hurts. Be a ****, gimp him, get in his face, be careful platform ****ing around against him. That's about all since I'm not experienced against marf. Uh.... go FoD? Maybe Brimstar?
Falco: Gay lasers, Gay spikes, Don't go DL64 against him, I don't like it at all. He dominates that level too much, think you can just edge guard him easier? nope. nope nope nope. **** that stage against him =s chaingrab him on FD, small stages he's not all that bad, just gotta watch out for shine off the top (YS) and spikes (everywhere basically). Brimstar is good? As is FoD, but who isn't FoD good against?
Sheik: Quoted by Ankoku: CHAINGRAB!!!!! She's gay, apparently we have a chaingrab against her I didn't know about untnil like last week, I don't play the matchup much cause the only sheik around here is Ankoku who beats me when I use my main anyways. I'll try to get more exp in this matchup cause it sucks, worst match up for G&W hands down.
Peach: I like this matchup. Might be cause I mained peach and I know how to deal with turnips, but what can peach do that any other char isn't gonna do to G&W? dsmash? stay off the **** ground. don't sheild it. however, AVOID YOSHI'S STORY, slanted edges and low floor make it impossible to recover if they dsmash (i think). It's stupid hard, and it hurts. SHRB if she recovers low, you might get a panspike. If she recovers high she's doomed since G&W can get ridiculous edge guards on her. (better than anyone else IMO when she recovers high). Grab > nair works at... every %? I don't see why you guys think she's so hard =s Go wherever you want, just avoid bigger levels.
C.F.: Don't get grabbed, I think we have a chain grab on him? don't quote me there. Someone reply and tell me if we do and what %'s. his grab = knee. he's fast, he's annoying, however his recovery sucks and platform tricksies work pretty well against him. Avoid FD and DL64, anywhere else isn't too bad.
Puff: My main, I like this matchup. throw > nair works, nair ***** her recovery, she's light as ****, dtilt works as a killer pretty early against her. She likes to WoP you? do it back with autocanceled aerials, you have more range. Puff won't know what to do, it'll be like wtf? is this a marf i'm against? zomg. I like FoD here a lot. PS and YS too for the same reasons.
ICs: Don't get grabbed, use dtilt? idk, I use peach's dsmash against them and usually win. so yea.
Middle/low/bottom tiers: I'll update as I get more practice against them, as all my knoledge with them is with scrubs or not enough matches against those that matter. I'll play against anther at the tourney and get some Pika stuffs for sure.
Ganon: *******, don't get hit, DONT' SHIELD HIS FAIR, IT DOESN'T WORK. I hate ganon vs G&W, almost as bad as sheik IMO
Cactuarz's YL: IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING, IT JUST THROWS PROJECTILES AND TIMES YOU OUT, WTF. (I'm proud of this btw, it's like brawl, but melee =D and I don't like brawl so this is amazing =p)
Ness: careful with his PK thunder/thunder 2. I like ness a lot myself and there's a couple of ness mains around here. One of them makes me think that jungle japes is the godly level of godliness against him, although I know that level belongs to corneria. Ban it. BAN IT
FOR GOD SAKES DON'T LET HIM CAMP THE GUNS. BAN IT!!!!!!. Go to small levels, WATCH OUT FOR THE FSMASH ON RECOVERY it hurts and a lot of ness players like it. his fair is beast but you can outspace it.
What I don't like to do.
Approaching with only SHFFL'd fairs
being on the ledge
being on FD
playing against sheik
not using peach's dsmash on IC's
eat sloppy joes
Any questions? comments? post them. I like you guys. =)
New Info
*stolen info from m2k's statistics list*
Roll
35 frames long, 16 invincible (both rolls)
(also 2'nd shortest backward roll and shortest forward roll)
Spot dodge: 32 frames long, 11 invincible (wtf)
Air dodge: 29 frames long, invincible for 26 (starting frame 4)
Jump starts on frame 5 So... If i'm correct, if instead of spot dodging, G&W jumps, instantly does an air dodge and then falls back down, it would take 34 frames and 26 would be invincible vs 32 and 11 with a spot dodge... I'm gonna tie this into my game more.
G&W ducks lower than sheik (good for projectiles... and attacks =p (can G&W duck under sheik's grab? I know that jiggs can (if it's not a dash grab) and G&W is right behind him on the ducking height list)I think G&W can duck under Marf's grab, if they like to abuse that, try to duck and see if it helps? Don't bother ducking under Peach's grab, it's a no-no)
Abuse your wavedash - My game revolves around edge canceling and a lot of wavedashing around. G&W has a beautiful wavedash, it's just too cute to do anything out of. =p
Part 1: What G&W does already. *from a nublet's standpoint*
I look at G&W as a character that revolves around edge canceling and generally avoiding l-canceling all together. Let's face it, L canceling sucks with G&W, you're limited to fair, dair, and uair if you just pulled it out *lame*. Focusing on a SHFFL game like every other char in the game just limits your options too much. 3-4 real approaches, SHFFL fairs, SHFFL dair (to dtilt, you know you wanna), empty SH's, and grabs. Do not want...
Do not want...
DO NOT WANT!!!
seriously... shielding beats 3 of those options *it beats running up and grabbing, cause G&W's grab and run is slow as balls. While there are other options, like running up and fsmashing just out of grab range, it's not practical very often at all =s.
Part 2: What Cactuarz likes to do *when he's thinking about it*
Part a: Edge canceling. G&W is slidey as balls, what's not to abuse about that? Toss an attack at the edge of the platform with some momentum, slide off and be free for a new attack, GENIUS! Not gonna lie, I LOVE platforms.
Grab that platform on battlefield/DL64/YS/PS/FoD. that's 5 starter stages right there that you can have all sorts of fun with. *take a guess at what stage I ban against non fast fallers *for chaingrabs**. Dair camping on platforms is fun as all hell. Dair off one side, then instantly jumping and bringing out that huge downward hitbox to the other side, where against you do the same thing. That's a pretty intimidating hitbox. I like doing this with bairs as well. Huge hitbox with pretty good stun and lots of damage ftw. (note: not as effective on DL64 due to more room underneath)
If someone gets ready to attack from below, you don't have to take it... just toss an instant dair out after landing on the edge, or waveland behind/around them. hell, you could even toss in an Uair and you can l-cancel it for once (zomg).
Part b: Stages:
This will need to be updated a lot as I practice some more CP stages, but I'll post what tips I've got on each one. Feel free to add suggestions.
Starter:
FD - I don't like it, you can chaingrab Falco and Fox here pretty well. I really just hate this stage. Ban it, not enough platforms =p. Full hopped autocanceled aerials into wavelands are cool here, FH retreating aerials, makes for a decent camping with hitboxes that last 90% of the time you're in the air, I almost LIKE this stage against people with no/****ty priority'd projectiles (like peach's). If your fair can stop the projectile, it's near useless in this case. SHRB is fun on this level. That's right, short hop reverse bacon canceling. Try it, it's an effective little gimmick. Boosts momentum then instantly stops it, and sends out bacon, this and bacon canceling (SH bacon to cancel momentum) is about all I use bacon for.
DL64 - left/right platforms from ground you can do nair/fair/bair and land on the platforms, aka the edge of platforms aka edge cancels. Has to be FH'd. I love pulling out fair way early so it has a weaker hitbox, then edge canceling it into a strong fair at midrange %'s. Combo's nicely, but not much hitstun to pull out a nair =(. Dair camping works, you live forever, but so does your opponent. While G&W is amazing at edge guarding, his recovery blows... I'm not too fond of this stage in general. Too big. Fine against slow people like uh... bowser?
FoD - I LOVE THESE PLATFORMS **** combo I've yet to pull off but really want to: Edge canceled nair off top platform, landing with an edge canceled weak fair off the side platform as it's low to the ground, into another weak fair edge canceled off the edge, into a 9. This needs to happen people, It's like a wombo combo of edge canceling G&W goodness. Also Edgecanceling twice in a row when the platforms are low is just ****ing hot. Gigantic hitboxes up and down, with small side ones. PERFECT for G&W. My typical CP stage.
Battlefield - Watch your recovery, one of my favorite stages due to the platforms *go figure*. Even the edges, yes they can mess with your recovery, but they can help too. M2 is silly with his side b here. A rather normal stage, I like it myself since the platforms cover the whole thing.
YS - Another of my favorite stages. Small edges, kinda hard to edge cancel attacks off the sloped edges, but you have platforms abound so it's not too bad, MIX UP YOUR RECOVERY HERE, YOU HAVE RANDALL, THE EDGE, AND THE SIDE PLATFORMS, USE THEM! Edge cancel your up b if you can *overshoot a little bit and DI back off the edge, it works for getting rid of that lag. My 2'nd favorite G&W stage, yes even against heavy hitters like fox. Avoid bowser and his silly shannanigans here.
PS - Third favorite, I LIKE this stage vs spacies, they die quick. They can camp you. But you have... platforms, although they're different here they're still quite useful. The mix of openness and platforms lets you mix in some FH fair/bair/uair/nair into waveland tricksies with some edge cancels too.
CP (forgive gaps here, I tend to play G&W mostly in friendlies, although I'm going to a tourney Saturday so I'll try to get some more exp on these lvls)
Rainbow Cruise - Eh, not too bad, I would like to explore more options with the ridiculous platforms after the pendulum. Don't play against spacies here, more trouble than it's worth.
Jungle Japes - Hate it, can't sweetspot, water ****s with you. I like fighting on the right side just because if you're in the water you're dead anyways, no sence giving the opponent extra recovery tricksy opportunities if you can't use them eh? That or the middle cause i'm a ***** with edge canceling.
Green Greens - My favorite stage... it sucks with G&W and that makes me a sad panda =(. IT'S MARIO PARTY =D. Don't go here.
Corneria - Hate it, if someone is gay enough to take me here I usually go ness and just heal on the guns down below, camp my *** off and play as gay as the stage is. I'll edit in my thoughts on this level that I posted in the psuedo-matchup thread after I post this. Bacon canceling! it works here?
Brimstar - I like it myself, it's wierd but it eliminates the need for recovering when lava is out, also you can chose to recover through the stage, it's neat-o =D. I like when people CP me here =) Might pick it against spacies in the tourny coming up just cause I love this level almost as much as Mario Party
Mute City - I mained peach, I liked it, I now main jiggs, I still like it, G&W doesn't like it. Too many reasons. NO PLATFORMS RAWR SHRB (the bacon thingy from the FD stage) works here
Poke Floats
KJ64 - You can go through the bottom? Possible tricksies on the up and down platforms?
Fun
uhh... what banned stages are actually fun... Flat zone? uhhhh Fourside?... that silly cloud level?
Part C: Char's
Fox: I like fox, just don't get shined. Not even from on the stage near edge get shined. You get all shined. Then you're like, HEY! YOU SHINED ME. Cause you're all shined. Getting shined is bad mmkay? Brimstar/FoD are my fav stages for him
Marf: Gay, Stay out of tipper range, I like SHRB on him, be careful autocanceling attacks as he's quick and has more range than your fair. and it hurts. Be a ****, gimp him, get in his face, be careful platform ****ing around against him. That's about all since I'm not experienced against marf. Uh.... go FoD? Maybe Brimstar?
Falco: Gay lasers, Gay spikes, Don't go DL64 against him, I don't like it at all. He dominates that level too much, think you can just edge guard him easier? nope. nope nope nope. **** that stage against him =s chaingrab him on FD, small stages he's not all that bad, just gotta watch out for shine off the top (YS) and spikes (everywhere basically). Brimstar is good? As is FoD, but who isn't FoD good against?
Sheik: Quoted by Ankoku: CHAINGRAB!!!!! She's gay, apparently we have a chaingrab against her I didn't know about untnil like last week, I don't play the matchup much cause the only sheik around here is Ankoku who beats me when I use my main anyways. I'll try to get more exp in this matchup cause it sucks, worst match up for G&W hands down.
Peach: I like this matchup. Might be cause I mained peach and I know how to deal with turnips, but what can peach do that any other char isn't gonna do to G&W? dsmash? stay off the **** ground. don't sheild it. however, AVOID YOSHI'S STORY, slanted edges and low floor make it impossible to recover if they dsmash (i think). It's stupid hard, and it hurts. SHRB if she recovers low, you might get a panspike. If she recovers high she's doomed since G&W can get ridiculous edge guards on her. (better than anyone else IMO when she recovers high). Grab > nair works at... every %? I don't see why you guys think she's so hard =s Go wherever you want, just avoid bigger levels.
C.F.: Don't get grabbed, I think we have a chain grab on him? don't quote me there. Someone reply and tell me if we do and what %'s. his grab = knee. he's fast, he's annoying, however his recovery sucks and platform tricksies work pretty well against him. Avoid FD and DL64, anywhere else isn't too bad.
Puff: My main, I like this matchup. throw > nair works, nair ***** her recovery, she's light as ****, dtilt works as a killer pretty early against her. She likes to WoP you? do it back with autocanceled aerials, you have more range. Puff won't know what to do, it'll be like wtf? is this a marf i'm against? zomg. I like FoD here a lot. PS and YS too for the same reasons.
ICs: Don't get grabbed, use dtilt? idk, I use peach's dsmash against them and usually win. so yea.
Middle/low/bottom tiers: I'll update as I get more practice against them, as all my knoledge with them is with scrubs or not enough matches against those that matter. I'll play against anther at the tourney and get some Pika stuffs for sure.
Ganon: *******, don't get hit, DONT' SHIELD HIS FAIR, IT DOESN'T WORK. I hate ganon vs G&W, almost as bad as sheik IMO
Cactuarz's YL: IT DOESN'T DO ANYTHING, IT JUST THROWS PROJECTILES AND TIMES YOU OUT, WTF. (I'm proud of this btw, it's like brawl, but melee =D and I don't like brawl so this is amazing =p)
Ness: careful with his PK thunder/thunder 2. I like ness a lot myself and there's a couple of ness mains around here. One of them makes me think that jungle japes is the godly level of godliness against him, although I know that level belongs to corneria. Ban it. BAN IT
FOR GOD SAKES DON'T LET HIM CAMP THE GUNS. BAN IT!!!!!!. Go to small levels, WATCH OUT FOR THE FSMASH ON RECOVERY it hurts and a lot of ness players like it. his fair is beast but you can outspace it.
What I don't like to do.
Approaching with only SHFFL'd fairs
being on the ledge
being on FD
playing against sheik
not using peach's dsmash on IC's
eat sloppy joes
Any questions? comments? post them. I like you guys. =)
but if you find yourself there, instead of facepalming and up b can work provided you have a top platform you can get to.