Need help figuring out Bowser's weaknesses

[Necro'lic]

Hey Bowser players! I'm a newer guy around here, and I have a small request for y'all.

I am working on a series of threads called "Balance Philosophy" where I take a character, pinpoint their strengths and weaknesses, and propose buffs and nerfs accordingly. So far, only two are done, Zelda and Robin. However, Zelda is a character I play often, while Robin is a character I knew only slightly. Both threads went off with totally different results as you might expect.

Bowser was the next one I was going to do, but not being a huge Bowser player (I only play him when I play with my brother), I want to understand the problems with Bowser before I attempt to fix them. So guys, just one question:

What are Bowser's glaring problems?

Note: Try not to inflate his frame data issue too much. Some moves I get shouldn't have it that bad (Fire Breath), but it's quite obvious the developers wanted that to be Bowser's chief flaw.

 

[Duplighost]

I am not a Bowser main, and I do not train with him. I don't know too much about him.

Bowser is much faster in terms of running speed in this game than its predecessors. But, his attacks are still slow but powerful. This makes him very predictable at times, but if his attacks hit, they are very strong and could KO opponents at low %'s who DI incorrectly.

He is extremely easy to combo. I'm a Sheik main, so when I see a Bowser I know I'm going to be able to land a ton of attacks on him, no matter how the Bowser DI's. His heaviness is handy because he does not get KO'd easily, but he does get combo'd easily. This isn't really a fair compensation in my opinion, though. His n-air is quick, but often can't break strings if the opponent is fast enough.

He has slow aerials. To my knowledge, his n-air is the fastest, and even that isn't super reliable at times. If you try to gimp with Bowser, it's a gamble, because his slow aerials combined with his mediocre recovery and fast falling speed leave him struggling to make it back to the stage.

He's a strong character but can be easily combo'd and doesn't have many combos himself, and it seems none of his grabs have any moves to follow up with.

That's honestly all I know(: Hope I helped a little bit!

 

[Zigsta]

Bowser's biggest weakness is he has a MASSIVE blindspot below him. This makes it very easy to juggle Bowser when he's directly above you. He only has three moves to cover his blindspot. Two of them--Bowser Bomb and dair--are relatively predictable and punishable, while the third --nair--doesn't cover below Bowser very well. This combined with Bowser's floatiness in the air makes getting juggled a really huge issue.

 

[Jerodak]

While Bowser does have some set-up potential, it could be a lot stronger. I'm not talking so much about combos,(though those are welcome in a very considerable moderation) so much as 50/50s, rock/paper/scissors situations, resets, and platform pressure set-ups.

He has a lot of these things in some capacity, but if it were a little stronger he would be a lot better in his advantage state. It would really affect his stage presence in a good way.

 

[Necro'lic]

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'll keep those in mind when I do the thread (eventually).

Are there any more specific move related woes you guys have?

 

[Jerodak]

Side b has very little range for how long it takes to come out, but also whiffs point blank and has that bowsercide bug (opponents jumping out and recovering).

Sometimes jab2 fails to link to jab 1 at max range.

Bowser bomb hit 2 sometimes whiffs if you land hit 1.

Grounded fortress lost it's 5 frame invulnerable start up on top of losing mobility, range, and the ability to slide off edges.

Dthrow has little to no use other than the funny animation.

Air fortress launching at the end instead of the beginning would be kinda cool.

You already mentioned firebreath, though it really only needs minor changes to its frame data if any at all. What would be more important to me is if it could be angled on start-up instead of after the hitboxes are generated.

Being able to b-reverse air fortress would be cool too.

If there's anything I missed then hopefully someone else will fill in the blanks. Hope this helped, good luck on the thread!

 

[Big Sean]

@ J Jerodak got most of them. Nair is a pretty useless move. Down throw is pretty useless. Forward/Back throw are superior in every way.

I think if you are suggesting fixing Bowser by reducing end lag or having bowser have a better air game ... don't. Smash is awesome not just because the characters have interesting strengths but also unique weaknesses that they have to overcome. Don't make Bowser's frame data just like everyone else's. I play Bowser BECAUSE he's so different.

 

[Necro'lic]

@ J Jerodak got most of them. Nair is a pretty useless move. Down throw is pretty useless. Forward/Back throw are superior in every way.

I think if you are suggesting fixing Bowser by reducing end lag or having bowser have a better air game ... don't. Smash is awesome not just because the characters have interesting strengths but also unique weaknesses that they have to overcome. Don't make Bowser's frame data just like everyone else's. I play Bowser BECAUSE he's so different.

Trust me, I won't. In fact, that right there is one of the reasons I started doing this.

When people wish for buffs to low tier characters or nerfs to high tiers, they seem to forget what that character is supposed to be bad/good at. I have heard too many "Make Shiek's frame data worse" or "Decrease Bowser's endlag" to count at this point. Weaknesses are built into characters just as much as strengths, and I only wish for people to realize it.

Otherwise, we end up with characters that feel too much like the next one, which was Sakurai's biggest concern when it came to balancing I believe, and I don't blame him. No matter how lopsided the meta is, one cannot up and say that Smash characters aren't the most unique characters in most fighter games today. And I wish to keep the uniqueness, but make the meta theoretically not as lopsided; hence, the Balance Philosophy series.

Soapbox done, sorry if I sounded a bit pretentious there, just really passionate.

Thanks for the feedback, btw.

 

[Zigsta]

I don't think nair is useless at all--its uses just aren't as readily apparent as Bowser's other aerials. Nair has wonky hitstun during the latter half of the move that can lead to guaranteed bairs when on a platform. I think it still needs to be explored more.

Hell, it wasn't discovered that Bowser's nair went through Olimar's upsmash in Brawl until about 4 years after the game came out.

Bowser's dthrow no longer having low set knockback like it did in Brawl, though, certainly sucks.

 

[Jerodak]

Yeah, gotta agree with Zigsta here, new Nair may not seem like much, but it's also largely unexplored. There are uses for it, we just need to find all of it's niche areas.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser main weakness? Here you go.

I don't think nair is useless at all--its uses just aren't as readily apparent as Bowser's other aerials. Nair has wonky hitstun during the latter half of the move that can lead to guaranteed bairs when on a platform. I think it still needs to be explored more.

Platform pressure with Nair is legit.

People always ask for less landing lag on Nair, but you never use Nair to approach or cover landings, so what's the point? And again, I maintain that a giant turtle flailing his limbs in the air would lag a lot upon landing.

 

[Big Sean]

I don't think nair is useless at all--its uses just aren't as readily apparent as Bowser's other aerials. Nair has wonky hitstun during the latter half of the move that can lead to guaranteed bairs when on a platform. I think it still needs to be explored more.

Hell, it wasn't discovered that Bowser's nair went through Olimar's upsmash in Brawl until about 4 years after the game came out.

Bowser's dthrow no longer having low set knockback like it did in Brawl, though, certainly sucks.

Yeah I use to love nair for platform pressure, but as of now i'm thinking full hop klaw is a better option almost every time. I still use nair occasionally, mostly as something that covers most options when someone is directly above me, but i'm currently struggling to find other use cases as i'm sure most of us are.

 

[shadenexus18]

Last time I checked, Bowser has a tough time getting out of Ness's PK Fire.

Also, Captain Falcon is one of his worst matchups.

One more thing. Be careful when you use his B-Air. It is hard to notice, but he is so off guard when he lands.

 

[Zigsta]

Last time I checked, Bowser has a tough time getting out of Ness's PK Fire.

Also, Captain Falcon is one of his worst matchups.

One more thing. Be careful when you use his B-Air. It is hard to notice, but he is so off guard when he lands.

These are all really wrong.

At low percents, Bowser doesn't care about PK Fire because of Tough Guy. At other percents, it's super easy to powershield it on reaction. If you get hit by it, WELP.

Falcon is an even MU and is by NOOOO means one of his worst MUs. Sheik, ZSS, Yoshi, MK, and Fox are all significantly more difficult. It's a MU of momentum, and that momentum works both ways.

Bair autocancels.

 

[shadenexus18]

These are all really wrong.

At low percents, Bowser doesn't care about PK Fire because of Tough Guy. At other percents, it's super easy to powershield it on reaction. If you get hit by it, WELP.

Falcon is an even MU and is by NOOOO means one of his worst MUs. Sheik, ZSS, Yoshi, MK, and Fox are all significantly more difficult. It's a MU of momentum, and that momentum works both ways.

Bair autocancels.

Heh. Well it would seem when it comes to Bowser that you did your homework and a ton of extra credit. Thanks for the info.

That's odd. I have face a ton of Zero Suit Samus's that were really decent, but somehow I come out on top.

 

[Zigsta]

That's odd. I have face a ton of Zero Suit Samus's that were really decent, but somehow I come out on top.

It's one of those MUs that isn't quite as hard as Sheik in that a halfway decent Sheik can put on major pressure to even a top Bowser player. I find it kinda like the Fox MU--a decent ZSS is totally beatable, but as soon as you play a top level ZSS, you'll see it's complete destruction. Both @Hitman JT and @Uncle played Nairo at Smash Con and can attest to how nasty the MU is.

 

[TehMud]

For me, Bowser's a big boy. He can be juggled fairly easily once Tough Guy isn't in effect.

His other big issue is LANDING. It's very hard for Bowser to land against a good quick opponent. If they're directly below you you basically have Dair or B-Bomb, both of which have huge landing lag. So one has to be very good at reading their opponent in order to land safely.

Random note, Ness's Back Throw can even kill Bowser early.

 

[MrEh]

For me, Bowser's a big boy. He can be juggled fairly easily once Tough Guy isn't in effect.

Bowser gets juggled regardless of Tough Guy or not.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Bowser gets juggled regardless of Tough Guy or not.

2nded. TG is mostly crap

 

[x45x]

Bowser's biggest weakness is getting down from the sky (which is totally doable but hard), and getting up from ledge.

When it comes to being juggled Bowser has a few options. Down air (big juke option), down B (guard crushing), Nair (contesting airial with a decent recovery), Fair (if angled right hits pretty far below Bowser. But all of these options are against Bowser. Its hard to land this stuff especially against Rosa, or other nasty jugglers.

Getting up the from the edge Bowser has a rough life. for generic ways up, roll up is roll up, get up is slow, long animation, get up attack sis sick but doesnt cover options. Jump is Jump and juggles are rough (see above).