Neurodiversity in the Media (a rant)

[fogbadge]

I am autistic and as such the depiction of neurodiversity in the media is something a bugbear of mine. For those of you who are unfamiliar neurodiversity refers to people who are what you might call neuro divergent. People with autism, ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia etc. Now everyone in a while I get a good reminder than the way it’s depicted in fiction is very poor. Autism in particular more often than not falls back onto the old stereotypes. But I don’t think any of them are done well in the long run.

For example there is a writer of some renown who wrote stories for his dyslexic and ADD son by writing a character who was misdiagnosed with both. Now someone explained to me that it was meant to be about overcoming societies’ labels. Trouble with that is that they’re not labels, they’re diagnosis that help people. Not only by helping a person understand themselves better but also allows them to get the help they no doubt need in things like school. The person who first saw I had autism didn’t want to diagnose me cause they didn’t believe in labels so I know what that’s like.

Looping back to representation I feel the whole thing is something of a vicious cycle now with most people basing characters with the things on other characters with these things despite the fact that they were wrong to begin with. The most famous book with an autistic lead is The Curious Incident with the Dog in the Night, written by a neurotypical who was too busy writing a massive stereotype to make a good story. The most famous movie, Rain Man which is also perpetuating the stereotypes. And these are the big ones, the most well known which they harm they do can be widespread. But even the lesser known one have proven to be problematic, video games with autistic scientist, comic books associating it with psychopathy, tv series about people who make their kids diagnosis all about them. It’s terrible to witness. And any story where the autistic character is the main character it’s some boring real world where the story is all about being autistic. The amount of fantasy or sci fi stories where the main character is autistic is virtually zero.

This is one of my main reasons for my desire to be a writer cause I think I can do better representation. For autism at least. But alas we live in a capitalist world where only those with the money can make it as a writer and thus the cycle may never break. There’s not really a point here, I’m just venting. I have made similar rants in the past and will probably do more in the future. Thanks for listening if you did.

 

[Sucumbio]

I think the problem is these "disorders" were largely ignored until much more recently, at least in the US. The term "neurotyptical" for instance resides as a normal comeback against resistance to "odd" takes because everyone still secretly believes "normal" is what everyone is. Before this, people were subject to being called all kinds of names cause they either stutter or stare blankly while teased (me) or any number of oddities. Then they started lumping the into psychotherapy categories which allowed for countless people to be electriuted or drugged.

I think spectrums are important because it's the right way to tbh. Just as sexuality and gender are fluid and dynamic so too are our personalities. It scares me that even now the therapies that are mainline in the US involve powerful medicines that can alter reality or have lasting physical discomfort. All so one can be "normal."

 

[fogbadge]

My philosophy is that there’s no such thing as normal

 

[Oracle Link]

I am autistic and as such the depiction of neurodiversity in the media is something a bugbear of mine. For those of you who are unfamiliar neurodiversity refers to people who are what you might call neuro divergent. People with autism, ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia, dysgraphia etc. Now everyone in a while I get a good reminder than the way it’s depicted in fiction is very poor. Autism in particular more often than not falls back onto the old stereotypes. But I don’t think any of them are done well in the long run.

For example there is a writer of some renown who wrote stories for his dyslexic and ADD son by writing a character who was misdiagnosed with both. Now someone explained to me that it was meant to be about overcoming societies’ labels. Trouble with that is that they’re not labels, they’re diagnosis that help people. Not only by helping a person understand themselves better but also allows them to get the help they no doubt need in things like school. The person who first saw I had autism didn’t want to diagnose me cause they didn’t believe in labels so I know what that’s like.

Looping back to representation I feel the whole thing is something of a vicious cycle now with most people basing characters with the things on other characters with these things despite the fact that they were wrong to begin with. The most famous book with an autistic lead is The Curious Incident with the Dog in the Night, written by a neurotypical who was too busy writing a massive stereotype to make a good story. The most famous movie, Rain Man which is also perpetuating the stereotypes. And these are the big ones, the most well known which they harm they do can be widespread. But even the lesser known one have proven to be problematic, video games with autistic scientist, comic books associating it with psychopathy, tv series about people who make their kids diagnosis all about them. It’s terrible to witness. And any story where the autistic character is the main character it’s some boring real world where the story is all about being autistic. The amount of fantasy or sci fi stories where the main character is autistic is virtually zero.

This is one of my main reasons for my desire to be a writer cause I think I can do better representation. For autism at least. But alas we live in a capitalist world where only those with the money can make it as a writer and thus the cycle may never break. There’s not really a point here, I’m just venting. I have made similar rants in the past and will probably do more in the future. Thanks for listening if you did.

Granted if you wanna see a story of an autist i am working on Videospiel-Man its about me from another universe as a videogame saving superhero! BTW i already made adjustments to other storys of mine to make the characters not me but i did think heck keep one as yourself but make him flawed! And i can gurante that the main crux of the story is a Superhero/ Isekaish story NOT the real world so im gonna tell you when its up (although the art is ROUGH)

 

[fogbadge]

First of i agree and considering how much modern hollywood pushes Diversity having the biggest and most heavily affected minority get even just half the Extra Push of women (Who lets be honest ARE 50% Sorry nothing personel) would be pretty neat!
Granted if you wanna see a story of an autist i am working on Videospiel-Man its about me from another universe as a videogame saving superhero! BTW i already made adjustments to other storys of mine to make the characters not me but i did think heck keep one as yourself but make him flawed! And i can gurante that the main crux of the story is a Superhero/ Isekaish story NOT the real world so im gonna tell you when its up (although the art is ROUGH)

I don’t follow what you’re saying in the first half

 

[Oracle Link]

I don’t follow what you’re saying in the first half

Its just my frustation for modern media leaking out again i removed it! the main point is the Videospielman part anyways!

 

[fogbadge]

Its just my frustation for modern media leaking out again i removed it! the main point is the Videospielman part anyways!

You have a problem with diversity? Or disingenuous diversity?

 

[Oracle Link]

You have a problem with diversity? Or disingenuous diversity?

Disingenious Diversity!
I mean i watched and enjoyed Owl House, Amphibia, lilo and stitch and Molly Mc Gee to name a few!
Also love Undertale and Deltarune!

 

[Mushroomguy12]

As someone with a diagnosis myself, I do appreciate seeing neurodiversity in the media and seeing positive representation of characters on the spectrum. I think it is something that can happen more.

 

[KneeOfJustice99]

I think it also doesn't help that elements of neurodiversity are still generally discussed in such a clinical tone in common discourse, meaning most people's exposure to what conditions like autism, ADHD, dyslexia and so forth will either be pulled from someone they know (usually not personally, so they'll look to celebrities or fictional characters which just perpetuates the cycle), or they'll be pulled from a WebMD list called something like "Top Ten Autism Moments!! With William Shatner" or something.

The neurodivergent experience is a difficult one to capture (regardless if you're ND or not, imo), but it is possible to get a better understanding of it through research and actually talking to people... but when the most easily accessible resources tend to be really clinical in nature as opposed to, like, relatable ****posts about how water tastes weird, it makes you feel less like you're writing a character and moreso a vaguely humanoid list of features that exclusively responds in pre-determined ways to environmental stimuli like some kind of fictional neurodivergent homunculous.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

On the topic of autism specifically, I honestly find it really interesting how a lot of characters that aren’t technically stated to be autistic can still resonate with a lot of autistic people’s experiences. A good example would be Data from Star Trek who I see a lot of autists relating to the experiences of but I’m not too familiar with the character so I can’t really comment on it more than that. Recently I even saw someone talking about how Po from Kung Fu Panda can be an effective metoaphor for autism. It does give me hope that even if the portrayals of neurodiversity in media are “other-ing” the experiences of autistic people can still be captured through media and metaphors even if they’re not the sole focus or intent. There’s definitely an interesting question on if it’s better for representation of autism to be explicitly stated by the text or for it to be subtext that anyone can see themselves in.

For full transperancy: I haven’t been officially diagnosed with autism but it is something I’ve thought about myself for years now and I do consider myself on the spectrum. I personally think a lot of media has helped me explore this in other characters in a really positive way, even when other portrayals of autism are uh, not positive. An example is Ichiban from the new Yakuza games who is portrayed as socially awkward and unaware in a lot of ways, and pretty clearly having a hyper fixation on video games which helps him see the world. I don’t think he was explicitly supposed to be autistic but it helps me explore myself through media and helps me to see autism as more of a normal thing which I think is great.

this was long and kinda rambly but tldr is I think neurodivergent experiences can be portrayed very well by characters who might not explicitly meant to be neurodivergent.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

I agree that some characters that might not have been intended as on the spectrum can still be identified with by those who are. I'd attribute that partially to the widely different levels of diagnosis when it comes to function (as it is literally called a spectrum).

 

[fogbadge]

On the topic of autism specifically, I honestly find it really interesting how a lot of characters that aren’t technically stated to be autistic can still resonate with a lot of autistic people’s experiences. A good example would be Data from Star Trek who I see a lot of autists relating to the experiences of but I’m not too familiar with the character so I can’t really comment on it more than that. Recently I even saw someone talking about how Po from Kung Fu Panda can be an effective metoaphor for autism. It does give me hope that even if the portrayals of neurodiversity in media are “other-ing” the experiences of autistic people can still be captured through media and metaphors even if they’re not the sole focus or intent. There’s definitely an interesting question on if it’s better for representation of autism to be explicitly stated by the text or for it to be subtext that anyone can see themselves in.

For full transperancy: I haven’t been officially diagnosed with autism but it is something I’ve thought about myself for years now and I do consider myself on the spectrum. I personally think a lot of media has helped me explore this in other characters in a really positive way, even when other portrayals of autism are uh, not positive. An example is Ichiban from the new Yakuza games who is portrayed as socially awkward and unaware in a lot of ways, and pretty clearly having a hyper fixation on video games which helps him see the world. I don’t think he was explicitly supposed to be autistic but it helps me explore myself through media and helps me to see autism as more of a normal thing which I think is great.

this was long and kinda rambly but tldr is I think neurodivergent experiences can be portrayed very well by characters who might not explicitly meant to be neurodivergent.

i really don't see how anyone can see autism in po. as for data, i have seen people make this comparison before and it really bugs me. not just cause i think star trek is unbearably dull but i hate it when people compare autistics to robots. apart from anything else it leans into the stereotype of emotionally stunned but brilliantly analytical. funny thing is i've seen another character in start trek who would be a much more believable portrayal of autism is he was meant to be one. which i doubt considering the general quality of writing.

can i ask if you've thought about getting diagnosed.

 

[Champion of Hyrule]

i really don't see how anyone can see autism in po. as for data, i have seen people make this comparison before and it really bugs me. not just cause i think star trek is unbearably dull but i hate it when people compare autistics to robots. apart from anything else it leans into the stereotype of emotionally stunned but brilliantly analytical. funny thing is i've seen another character in start trek who would be a much more believable portrayal of autism is he was meant to be one. which i doubt considering the general quality of writing.

can i ask if you've thought about getting diagnosed.

Yeah I can see that but the thing is there are already lots of autistic people who see themselves in the character of Data which I was referring to. If you look at him like a 1 to 1 metaphor for autism it falls apart in some ways but there are a lot of autistic people who see their struggles in the character and even though there should be better examples of intended representation it’s important and good to note there are places where autistic people can find representation. Sorta like how I don’t think the movie Luca is actually about a queer metaphor but I think it’s great that a lot of queer people can see their own stories in it.

As for the Kung Fu Panda thing, I can’t find the video specifically now since I’m in public and kinda don’t wanna look a bunch for a yourube video, but I saw the reasoning in the channel OverlySarcasticProductions video on the last of one’s race trope, it should be one of their more recent videos if you’re interested in it.
Also I am trying to get a diagnosis atm, yes

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah I can see that but the thing is there are already lots of autistic people who see themselves in the character of Data which I was referring to. If you look at him like a 1 to 1 metaphor for autism it falls apart in some ways but there are a lot of autistic people who see their struggles in the character and even though there should be better examples of intended representation it’s important and good to note there are places where autistic people can find representation. Sorta like how I don’t think the movie Luca is actually about a queer metaphor but I think it’s great that a lot of queer people can see their own stories in it.

As for the Kung Fu Panda thing, I can’t find the video specifically now since I’m in public and kinda don’t wanna look a bunch for a yourube video, but I saw the reasoning in the channel OverlySarcasticProductions video on the last of one’s race trope, it should be one of their more recent videos if you’re interested in it.
Also I am trying to get a diagnosis atm, yes

in the case of luca that always felt to me a case of people seeing what they wanted to see. you can read about the making of the film and watching it, it's clearly just a film about friendship so i think that was just the shippers getting carried away. in the case of Data, well i can appreciate that people can related their struggles with him but as i said i think there's another character in the show who is a more realistic example. with data it's just another badly done metaphor for a show that wrote itself into a corner with it's own premise.

it's good that you're trying to get diagnosed. it's very important to know one way or the other

 

[TheZizz]

My philosophy is that there’s no such thing as normal

Likewise with the designation of "neurotypical", in the sense that independent thinking is something to encourage in every individual regardless of whatever neurological conditions may be imposed upon them. Maybe their perspective is more idiosyncratic than one might suppose, regardless of their CPU being in standard working order. Who am I to dub someone as typical or unique?

It is hard to deny the debilitating factors of something like autism, and it's not something that I opt to wear on my sleeve, but, it does have a tendency to cause one to hyper-specialize, and pursue & develop some rather atypical talents to say the least, not unlike how blindness has been observed to heighten other senses. A gift from JENOVA?

 

[fogbadge]

Huh. I had almost forgotten about this thread

 

[TheZizz]

Huh. I had almost forgotten about this thread

The serious forum is no place for spam... My point is calling everyone "typical" just makes aspies (no I'm not dropping that lovely term, medical science be damned) look conceited. And I think we get enough preemptive judgments off of the condition, whether we broadcast it or not.

On a related topic, I'm not sure that I prefer to be given leniency for callous insensitive behavior, on the basis of being autistic (or having symptoms of "chronic apathy" as I've come to observe it). I think I would rather be held to the standard of public decency with no special treatment. Then again maybe mutual callousness can have a beautiful "equilibrium" all its own (as with Trevor and Alucard laughing off their shared animosity) and more people adopting it is just what the doctor ordered. ...Nahh.

 

[fogbadge]

The serious forum is no place for spam... My point is calling everyone "typical" just makes aspies (no I'm not dropping that lovely term, medical science be damned) look conceited. And I think we get enough preemptive judgments off of the condition, whether we broadcast it or not.

err the reason people stopped using the term "aspie" was because of the man who it was named after not medical science. also there's no such thing as typical

 

[TheZizz]

err the reason people stopped using the term "aspie" was because of the man who it was named after not medical science. also there's no such thing as typical

Errm! for some reason they stopped calling it Aspergers and just put it under the umbrella of autism. I like the ring of "aspie".

But it's perfectly reasonable to say something like, deer are "typically" vegetarian but will eat meat when times are tough. Consistent patterns are a thing.

I know what you're saying though. I'm the first to denounce this sort of monolithic intersectional thinking and calls for "representation" like we're indigenous to some Pacific Island. It's the sort of stuff that's begging to be lampooned on South Park.

 

[fogbadge]

Errm! for some reason they stopped calling it Aspergers and just put it under the umbrella of autism. I like the ring of "aspie".

yes and I just told you the reason. people dropped the term because the man it was named after was a nazi

 

[TheZizz]

yes and I just told you the reason. people dropped the term because the man it was named after was a nazi

"Doctors used to consider Asperger's and autism as separate conditions. But the 2013 edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), the standard book that mental health experts use, changed how the condition is classified.

Today, Asperger's syndrome is technically no longer a diagnosis on its own. It's part of the broader category of autism spectrum disorder(ASD). This group of related disorders shares some symptoms. Even so, lots of people still use the term Asperger's."

Source: WebMD

So its fall from use as an official diagnosis verifiably pertains to medical science. It's a redundant way to describe autism. So what anyway? Holy hell.

 

[CapitaineCrash]

yes and I just told you the reason. people dropped the term because the man it was named after was a nazi

That's not really true. People dropped the term because it was very hard to differentiate between the different type of autism (Asperger, Rett syndrome, childhood desintegrative disorder), and the support you would get with any diagnostic was the same either way, so it's just much more simple for clinician to diagnose Autism Spectrum disorder.

 

[fogbadge]

"Doctors used to consider Asperger's and autism as separate conditions. But the 2013 edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), the standard book that mental health experts use, changed how the condition is classified.

Today, Asperger's syndrome is technically no longer a diagnosis on its own. It's part of the broader category of autism spectrum disorder(ASD). This group of related disorders shares some symptoms. Even so, lots of people still use the term Asperger's."

Source: WebMD

So its fall from use as an official diagnosis verifiably pertains to medical science. It's a redundant way to describe autism. So what anyway? Holy hell.

that has got literally nothing to do with what I said

 

[TheZizz]

that has got literally nothing to do with what I said

It does. It doesn't affirm what you said, but it refutes what you said as not being accurate. Sit down dude

 

[fogbadge]

It does. It doesn't affirm what you said, but it refutes what you said as not being accurate. Sit down dude

it doesn’t actually. cause I know for a fact that Aspergers was considered a form of autism long before 2013. You sit down

 

[TheZizz]

it doesn’t actually. cause I know for a fact that Aspergers was considered a form of autism long before 2013. You sit down

Who's saying it wasn't...

 

[fogbadge]

Who's saying it wasn't...

you did.

 

[TheZizz]

you did.

That's why I described "its fall from use as an official diagnosis"? This has to be bait

 

[fogbadge]

That's why I described "its fall from use as an official diagnosis"? This has to be bait

bait? coming from the guy who revived a year old thread about neurodiversity in the media only to say, what was it “I'm the first to denounce this sort of monolithic intersectional thinking and calls for "representation" like we're indigenous to some Pacific Island. It's the sort of stuff that's begging to be lampooned on South Park.” And you accuse me of bait? Kindly leave my thread.

 

[TheZizz]

bait? coming from the guy who revived a year old thread about neurodiversity in the media only to say, what was it “I'm the first to denounce this sort of monolithic intersectional thinking and calls for "representation" like we're indigenous to some Pacific Island. It's the sort of stuff that's begging to be lampooned on South Park.” And you accuse me of bait? Kindly leave my thread.

It was on the first page of the serious forum, and the neurodivergent terminology typically indicates only one thing, that heavily pertains to my own situation. Calling it bait instead of a lack of reading comprehension was giving you the benefit of the doubt in a way. But this sort of, incessant fishing for gotchas to prove me wrong where it doesn't make sense, is emblematic of why I don't want to be typecast with "the monolith of autism".

I have full conviction in my POV even if I make light of it, and being a certified sperglord myself I reserve full rights to poke fun at our unique tendencies, and even what may or may not be unfair stereotypes. (Being overly literal and such)

 

[fogbadge]

It was on the first page of the serious forum, and the neurodivergent terminology typically indicates only one thing, that heavily pertains to my own situation. Calling it bait instead of a lack of reading comprehension was giving you the benefit of the doubt in a way. But this sort of, incessant fishing for gotchas to prove me wrong where it doesn't make sense, is emblematic of why I don't want to be typecast with "the monolith of autism".

I have full conviction in my POV even if I make light of it, and being a certified sperglord myself I reserve full rights to poke fun at our unique tendencies, and even what may or may not be unfair stereotypes. (Being overly literal and such)

in the short time you've been on this forum you've done nothing but say contentious things. what else I am supposed to think you're here to do than cause trouble like you always do. especially when by your own admission you have no interest in the subject matter of the thread

 

[TheZizz]

in the short time you've been on this forum you've done nothing but say contentious things. what else I am supposed to think you're here to do than cause trouble like you always do. especially when by your own admission you have no interest in the subject matter of the thread

I don't want media blanket-portraying the condition any particular way, eg. "They're autistic, that means they like routine" etc., or whatever the case may be. Although some common tendencies can hardly be helped and are important to recognize, supposed predispositions are too often used for a crutch. That is my stake in the conversation.

And this proclivity to make banners from every aspect of ourselves, is best kept in the frame of good fun. Basically sports teams, where it's understood that decrying Yankees in favor of Red Sox is absolutely tongue-in-cheek, and people who take it to the level of real animosity are immediately & rightly ostracized. They're both baseball teams after all. Well, if only the same could be said for international football...yeesh

 

[fogbadge]

I don't want media blanket-portraying the condition any particular way, eg. "They're autistic, that means they like routine" etc., or whatever the case may be. Although some common tendencies can hardly be helped and are important to recognize, supposed predispositions are too often used for a crutch. That is my stake in the conversation.

And this proclivity to make banners from every aspect of ourselves, is best kept in the frame of good fun. Basically sports teams, where it's understood that decrying Yankees in favor of Red Sox is absolutely tongue-in-cheek, and people who take it to the level of real animosity are immediately & rightly ostracized. They're both baseball teams after all. Well, if only the same could be said for international football...yeesh

that is a bad example I’m afraid. here in the UK people take their teams way too seriously. there’s no tongue in cheek about it

 

[TheZizz]

that is a bad example I’m afraid. here in the UK people take their teams way too seriously. there’s no tongue in cheek about it

Naturally, where else would sportsmanship have no place in sports, but a land practically begging for sharia law, or so I'm told?

 

[The Black Omen]

Naturally, where else would sportsmanship have no place in sports, but a land practically begging for sharia law, or so I'm told?

 

[Sucumbio]

Try not to spam please.

Sharia Law is a nonsense equivocation and a joke in poor taste to boot let's at least try to avoid being demeaning please.

 

[TheZizz]

Who's joking?

He can mention some island nation but I can't mention sharia law? I hope he didn't put you up to this

 

[Sucumbio]

"...And this proclivity to make banners from every aspect of ourselves, is best kept in the frame of good fun." And of course you can talk about Sharia Law all you want just that claiming the UK is practically begging for it (it's not) is unfounded and off topic.

 

[TheZizz]

"...And this proclivity to make banners from every aspect of ourselves, is best kept in the frame of good fun." And of course you can talk about Sharia Law all you want just that claiming the UK is practically begging for it (it's not) is unfounded and off topic.

UK is off topic too. This always happens where I allow change of topic 10x but when I do it once they hit the e-brake on the conversation. Anyway I phrased it as a question because the hearsay is that practicing Muslims are now in the seat of power in the EU, but it's comforting to know that there is a distinction between Islam and sharia law.

I'm dead serious about this endless inventing of new banners, I believe it's regressive. When autistic people of all people want to cash on the trend is where it personally concerns me with 1 degree of separation. As my condition is common knowledge with a simple Google search against my wishes, I might as well throw my hat into the ring here, and declare that no one can represent you like you. It's one more preconception that I don't need attached to me. I hope I'm making sense to anyone who might read this. There's something to be said for finding like-minds to connect with, but I'm an advocate for identifying as one of a kind